ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

Reply
Old 18th November 2019, 11:02 PM   #2521
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,212
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I know, what happened to that? The last town meeting I channel-surfed by she was responding to Obama's criticism I think. Her message was massive change was needed.
I haven't been impressed with Warren and her campaign almost right from the start. I thought taking the DNA test was politically moronic. She needs a message and then she has to stay on message. It has to be simple and she has to hammer that home. She can't allow others to dictate what her campaign is about.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 11:25 PM   #2522
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,612
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I haven't been impressed with Warren and her campaign almost right from the start. I thought taking the DNA test was politically moronic. She needs a message and then she has to stay on message. It has to be simple and she has to hammer that home. She can't allow others to dictate what her campaign is about.
Yeah. She's been faltering a bit as she's gotten bogged down in specifics of the the healthcare debate and more generally reacting - which is a self-inflicted wound, really. It's honestly enough to say that she's not going to start with a compromise - compromise will naturally happen in the legislative branch almost no matter what, so why give up most of the bargaining chips before you even get to the table? - and then move on.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 18th November 2019 at 11:30 PM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 02:08 AM   #2523
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,158
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
If that's the case, why did he focus on Pete's parents?
My argument is that if people are so concerned about Buttigieg losing votes because he's gay, then how about this other issue. How long before he is confronted with some quote his dad made at a Gramsci Society meeting?
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 06:21 AM   #2524
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 52,497
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
My argument is that if people are so concerned about Buttigieg losing votes because he's gay, then how about this other issue. How long before he is confronted with some quote his dad made at a Gramsci Society meeting?
I love it! Not only must a Democrat candidate have perfect responses to all questions and events that occur, they must also have perfect defenses to hypothetical future attacks that have yet to be made! Reading this thread it looks like a Democrat must be more perfect than a fanfic Mary Sue in order to stand a chance at "being electable"; meanwhile the Republicans are simultaneously being impeached and having strokes, and that's considered so par for the course it's not even a factor in their "electability"!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 07:08 AM   #2525
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,853
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I love it! Not only must a Democrat candidate have perfect responses to all questions and events that occur, they must also have perfect defenses to hypothetical future attacks that have yet to be made! Reading this thread it looks like a Democrat must be more perfect than a fanfic Mary Sue in order to stand a chance at "being electable";
The defining characteristic of a Mary Sue is not that they are too perfect, but that reality bends to them rather than the other way around.

Hillary was a Mary Sue candidate. Or rather, many Democrats assumed she was. But then reality failed to bend to her.

Quote:
meanwhile the Republicans are simultaneously being impeached and having strokes, and that's considered so par for the course it's not even a factor in their "electability"!
This is a new one to me. What's it in reference to?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 07:14 AM   #2526
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 52,497
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This is a new one to me. What's it in reference to?
The surprise medical trip Trump recently had. I don't really think it was a stroke, they'd have helicoptered him if that had happened. I think it's more likely he got a sex toy stuck, or a digestive malfunction, or something. But given past reports of speech issues I wouldn't bet against the occasional TIA manifesting. If there's an opposite to a DASH diet it's Trump's.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 08:05 AM   #2527
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 32,297
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The surprise medical trip Trump recently had. I don't really think it was a stroke, they'd have helicoptered him if that had happened. I think it's more likely he got a sex toy stuck, or a digestive malfunction, or something. But given past reports of speech issues I wouldn't bet against the occasional TIA manifesting. If there's an opposite to a DASH diet it's Trump's.
Most likely both simultaneously.
__________________
"Shemp, you are the one fixed point in an ever-changing universe." - Beady
"I don't want to live in a world without shemp." - Quarky
"Real name? Xavier Jorge Gladdius Horatio McShrimp. No wonder he goes by shemp." - wasapi
"...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, Trump shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 08:21 AM   #2528
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,212
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
My argument is that if people are so concerned about Buttigieg losing votes because he's gay, then how about this other issue. How long before he is confronted with some quote his dad made at a Gramsci Society meeting?
Because that's NOT an issue. The only people who would care about that are right wing nutters that wouldn't vote for Pete in the first place. Voters didn't care about Jeremiah Wright, they didn't care about Obama's birth certificate. They didn't really care about Kennedy's religion and I doubt many people didn't vote for Romney for the same reason.

Do you really think people who might have voted for Mayor Pete are not going to over something his father said 30 years ago?
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 09:33 AM   #2529
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,254
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Because that's NOT an issue. The only people who would care about that are right wing nutters that wouldn't vote for Pete in the first place. Voters didn't care about Jeremiah Wright, they didn't care about Obama's birth certificate. They didn't really care about Kennedy's religion and I doubt many people didn't vote for Romney for the same reason.

Do you really think people who might have voted for Mayor Pete are not going to over something his father said 30 years ago?
I know times have changed. Yet,..

https://yarn.co/yarn-clip/ee5410ea-4...2-ad0ecf259920
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 09:58 AM   #2530
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76,975
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The surprise medical trip Trump recently had. I don't really think it was a stroke, they'd have helicoptered him if that had happened. I think it's more likely he got a sex toy stuck, or a digestive malfunction, or something. But given past reports of speech issues I wouldn't bet against the occasional TIA manifesting. If there's an opposite to a DASH diet it's Trump's.
That's one that makes sense. He had to go somewhere they could keep it secret so didn't go to the closer hospital.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 10:02 AM   #2531
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 52,497
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's one that makes sense. He had to go somewhere they could keep it secret so didn't go to the closer hospital.
With his money you'd think he could get the best quality. We live in an era of flared bases and magnetic hinges, there's really little excuse for the funny ER visit stories any more. It's a golden age!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 10:21 AM   #2532
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,212
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I know times have changed. Yet,..

https://yarn.co/yarn-clip/ee5410ea-4...2-ad0ecf259920
Maybe, maybe not. I think Pete's sexuality may be the only thing keeping him from being President. But I also never imagined the nation electing a man of color or a prolific inveterate liar.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 10:52 AM   #2533
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,254
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Maybe, maybe not. I think Pete's sexuality may be the only thing keeping him from being President. But I also never imagined the nation electing a man of color or a prolific inveterate liar.
I agree. I am unaware how precisely it would affect his candidacy.

When he gets the nomination, will he be planting a big kiss on Chastan up on the stage as the balloons drop? I would assume that will be a big deal. The nation may be ready for that, it may not.
Maybe it will gain him more than it hurts. Tough call to make.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 11:12 AM   #2534
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,212
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I agree. I am unaware how precisely it would affect his candidacy.

When he gets the nomination, will he be planting a big kiss on Chastan up on the stage as the balloons drop? I would assume that will be a big deal. The nation may be ready for that, it may not.
Maybe it will gain him more than it hurts. Tough call to make.
My guess is that he won't. He doesn't need to remind the world he's gay. They know. I'm not comfortable watching two men kiss. Women OTOH is another story. But I absolutely DON'T believe it matters on the job. It's also none of my business how you get your freak on.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 11:28 AM   #2535
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,254
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
My guess is that he won't. He doesn't need to remind the world he's gay. They know. I'm not comfortable watching two men kiss. Women OTOH is another story. But I absolutely DON'T believe it matters on the job. It's also none of my business how you get your freak on.
Think of the backlash if he did not kiss his husband at the conclusion.

He would be in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of dilemma.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 11:32 AM   #2536
wasapi
Philosopher
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,804
It is sad to me that now, 2020 soon to come, this matters. Yet, to many voters, it does. Perhaps, a few years from now, it won't be an issue.
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 12:16 PM   #2537
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,212
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Think of the backlash if he did not kiss his husband at the conclusion.

He would be in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of dilemma.
I don't think there would be a backlash. Sure, some people are going to point it out and try to make an issue of it. You just move right past it. Hell, I can't remember Melanie even touching Donald. Ever.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 12:22 PM   #2538
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 52,497
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think there would be a backlash. Sure, some people are going to point it out and try to make an issue of it. You just move right past it. Hell, I can't remember Melanie even touching Donald. Ever.
She did have a son together, so presumably she must have at some point.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 12:29 PM   #2539
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,144
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Quote:
Hell, I can't remember Melanie even touching Donald. Ever.
She did have a son together, so presumably she must have at some point.
Unless of course Trump is such a virile specimen that he could get Melanie pregnant by just looking at her.

I'm sure someone could have told Trump that and he would believe it.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 04:24 PM   #2540
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,131
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Again, how disgusting. "Red diaper baby"? There are no sewers too full of turds for Republicans not to slither in.

I DON'T know Gramsci. I have no idea about his politics. The point is you're engaged in pathetically typical guilt by association. The thread is about Democratic candidates and the discussion is about Mayor Pete which I guess you seem to infer is a Marxist because his father translated some books of someone who may have had some Marxist ideas.

This reminds me so much of previous typical Republican protestations like Obama was a Muslim or the Jeremiah Wright nonsense or how about Hillary Clinton and Saul Alinsky?
TO be fair, "Red Diaper Baby" was orginally used for Some prominent Sixties radicals who were the children of 1930's radicals many of whom were CPUSA members.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 05:02 PM   #2541
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,254
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Unless of course Trump is such a virile specimen that he could get Melanie pregnant by just looking at her.

I'm sure someone could have told Trump that and he would believe it.
He doesn't appear cock-eyed to me.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 05:29 PM   #2542
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,131
Re Warren: She was seen as the favorite, and when that happens everybody gangs up on you. it's the way the game is played.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 05:31 PM   #2543
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,131
I see that Hilary's trial balloon about jumping into the race is not doing very well....
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 05:40 PM   #2544
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 25,901
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Maybe, maybe not. I think Pete's sexuality may be the only thing keeping him from being President. But I also never imagined the nation electing a man of color or a prolific inveterate liar.
Read my lips, I am not a crook, and I did not have sexual relations with that woman!

Surely you jest!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 06:17 PM   #2545
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,212
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Read my lips, I am not a crook, and I did not have sexual relations with that woman!

Surely you jest!
Certainly both Nixon and Clinton lied from time to time as we all do. But Trump lies more than any person I've ever encountered and that is not a hyperbolic exaggeration.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 03:31 AM   #2546
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,882
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
George Herbert Walker Bush, AKA Bush I. I didn't like his politics but thought he was well qualified to handle the job. I might have been somewhat optimistic in that regard.

Hillary Rodham Clinton. No matter what you think about her, she was extremely well qualified. If she could handle Slick Willie, the GOP would have been duck soup.
I hate to remind you, but Hillary was never president.

The point is that POTUS will always have more responsibilities than any other job you've ever had, so that anyone can always say that you were not prepared. Mayor of a city is certainly better than game show host.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You will notice round and round in that post refers to opinion vs opinion. The merry-go-round isn't going anywhere.

Are you playing another question game? Oh goody, let's see, I'm looking, I'm looking. If only you would have just repeated it.


Oh, there is it, "what president had"?

Was my answer too abstract? People with experience in Congress and as Governors have the experience I refer to. Mayors don't.

You guys are too touchy. It was the same way with Bernie. Dare to say what you find wrong or inadequate and the replies get snarky.
Irony!

Quote:
People with experience in Congress and as Governors have the experience I refer to. Mayors don't.
Why not?

Quote:
Did you think Obama's lack of experience hurt his ability to accomplish more? Think it hurt him dealing with McConnell?
No.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 05:44 AM   #2547
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 13,600
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yeah right, that's all it is.

The dude was a Mayor, it's not even a state office.

Like it or not, he doesn't have the experience a POTUS needs.

I won't have any trouble voting for him if he wins the Primary. But he's not my first choice.
Valid point. But bear in mind, an executive, even a mayor, has "the buck stops here" responsibilities that legislators do not. Hell, anyone can be a senator. You can roll out of bed on a daily basis and not do a damn thing except register party line votes, and nobody will even notice. The buck doesn't stop on your desk or anywhere near it.

There are many competent people in the world who are not competent executives.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 06:26 AM   #2548
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 25,901
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I hate to remind you, but Hillary was never president.

The point is that POTUS will always have more responsibilities than any other job you've ever had, so that anyone can always say that you were not prepared. Mayor of a city is certainly better than game show host.



Irony!



Why not?



No.
I think it would be a fair point to say that someone like Lyndon B Johnson had a lot of useful transferable experience for being the president. Whereas Kennedy's legislation got stalled in Congress, LBJ knew people in the Senate very well and was able to wheel and deal to get Kennedy's legislation and his own through. In that sense his experience was very valuable. Kennedy and Obama's relative lack of experience made it much harder for them to deal with the legislative branch. Presumably vice-presidents and incumbent presidents have quite a bit more of an insight into the executive branch than those who have not had the experience as well, so I think it is fair to say someone like Pete Buttigieg is very inexperienced compared to someone like LBJ.

Of course, even then, LBJ was still unable to deal with the Vietnam War in ways that his experience helped him with.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 06:35 AM   #2549
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,882
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think it would be a fair point to say that someone like Lyndon B Johnson had a lot of useful transferable experience for being the president. Whereas Kennedy's legislation got stalled in Congress, LBJ knew people in the Senate very well and was able to wheel and deal to get Kennedy's legislation and his own through. In that sense his experience was very valuable. Kennedy and Obama's relative lack of experience made it much harder for them to deal with the legislative branch. Presumably vice-presidents and incumbent presidents have quite a bit more of an insight into the executive branch than those who have not had the experience as well, so I think it is fair to say someone like Pete Buttigieg is very inexperienced compared to someone like LBJ.

Of course, even then, LBJ was still unable to deal with the Vietnam War in ways that his experience helped him with.
That's all true but my question was about the experience of a mayor.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 06:39 AM   #2550
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Valid point. But bear in mind, an executive, even a mayor, has "the buck stops here" responsibilities that legislators do not. Hell, anyone can be a senator. You can roll out of bed on a daily basis and not do a damn thing except register party line votes, and nobody will even notice. The buck doesn't stop on your desk or anywhere near it.

There are many competent people in the world who are not competent executives.
In a system where responsibility for key things is widely dispersed, "the buck stops here" is really more of a myth than anything. I mean, a lot of things will happen which really was beyond the executive's control.

There are some executive cultures and communities which are far better or worse than others, too.

In my city, Memphis, arguably the most messed up city in the country, it's the corporate community leadership (and it's interactions and relationships with with the mayor, city council, and county commission) that's keeping things messed up, probably by accident, but the people at the top are immune to input or even the slightest hint of constructive criticism.

Replacing the ones in government with better people is fantastically difficult, too, for reasons it would take an essay to explain in detail. But they've semi-rigged the system via one of those political consultant, communications, and strategy firms. We're finally starting to beat them, though. The reign of incompetence and looting the taxpayers and profiting off our suffering via property development schemes might be coming to an end. We'll see.

Anyway, it's easy to be an executive in gov who simply obeys corporations and local con artists with an eye for a quick buck. That's not difficult.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 20th November 2019 at 06:45 AM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 06:42 AM   #2551
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 25,901
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's all true but my question was about the experience of a mayor.
Well, for one thing, I would say you are dealing with different personnel. If you personally know the Senators and the Congressmen, and you know the interplay between them and the Executive Branch, then that is transferable experience that you would not get from being the mayor.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 10:41 AM   #2552
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,212
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think it would be a fair point to say that someone like Lyndon B Johnson had a lot of useful transferable experience for being the president. Whereas Kennedy's legislation got stalled in Congress, LBJ knew people in the Senate very well and was able to wheel and deal to get Kennedy's legislation and his own through. In that sense his experience was very valuable. Kennedy and Obama's relative lack of experience made it much harder for them to deal with the legislative branch. Presumably vice-presidents and incumbent presidents have quite a bit more of an insight into the executive branch than those who have not had the experience as well, so I think it is fair to say someone like Pete Buttigieg is very inexperienced compared to someone like LBJ.

Of course, even then, LBJ was still unable to deal with the Vietnam War in ways that his experience helped him with.
That's all true. He was also a Southerner, a Texan and the former Senate Majority leader and man did he know how to wield his power. The stories about how LBJ ran the Senate are legendary. But he also derived his power as President because he had a super majority in both the House and the Senate and LBJ won the Presidency in a landslide. He had what I use to refer to as the martyrdom mandate. You can't dismiss that.
If you could ignore the Vietnam debacle, (I can't) I'd argue LBJ and FDR were the greatest and most effective Presidents in the 20th century.

Jimmy Carter was also a very effective legislator, but he blew it politically.

Obama was one of the least effective legislators. But it's hard to ignore that during his tenure the GOP wouldn't even support bills they normally would just to prevent anything that might put Obama in a favorable light.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 10:59 AM   #2553
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,158
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Valid point. But bear in mind, an executive, even a mayor, has "the buck stops here" responsibilities that legislators do not. Hell, anyone can be a senator. You can roll out of bed on a daily basis and not do a damn thing except register party line votes, and nobody will even notice. The buck doesn't stop on your desk or anywhere near it.

There are many competent people in the world who are not competent executives.
I agree with this; executive experience is very useful, and a mayor (at least a mayor in a "strong mayor" system), has relevant experience.

Representatives only have a staff of about 15 people, while senators average about 35. South Bend has about 1000 municipal employees. That's a pretty significant difference in scale, although of course governors oversee much larger staffs which is probably why so many of our presidents were former state executives.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 11:05 AM   #2554
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,952
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Think of the backlash if he did not kiss his husband at the conclusion.

He would be in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of dilemma.
We didn't mention that the spouse gets a primetime speech at the convention. Better or worse than a kiss?
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 12:23 PM   #2555
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,254
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
We didn't mention that the spouse gets a primetime speech at the convention. Better or worse than a kiss?
Probably not as big a deal.
It's a hypothetical till they are planting one on each others lips for all to witness.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 01:33 PM   #2556
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,131
I think the last couple of weeks could be called "The Centrist/Moderates Strike Back".
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 01:34 PM   #2557
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,131
I am cyincial enough to think the real objection to the Mayor is not that he was a Mayor, but that he is not far enough to the left for the Progs.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 02:09 PM   #2558
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
https://twitter.com/AdyBarkan/status...38187140792322
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 02:48 PM   #2559
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,212
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
She did have a son together, so presumably she must have at some point.
Possibly. But any pda between Donald and Melanie has been sparse to non-existent.

Do we really think it's necessary for Mayor Pete to go lip-lock?
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 02:53 PM   #2560
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,158
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am cyincial enough to think the real objection to the Mayor is not that he was a Mayor, but that he is not far enough to the left for the Progs.
It's certainly an unusual situation; Giuliani was probably here at some point in 2007, but aside from him I can't remember the last time a mayor was really in the top rank of candidates.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:32 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.