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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 27th September 2019, 07:17 PM   #401
PhantomWolf
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So maybe a Republican supporter can explain the issue here....

In February 2014 the new Ukrainian Government came to power and was convinced by Western Nations to start investigations into corruption by former leaders. One of those people was the ex-environment minister, Mykola Zlochevsky, who in 2002 had founded one of the largest natural gas companies in Ukraine, Burisma Holdings, registering it in Cyprus.

Any issues yet?

Part of this was the U.K. freezing $23 million in London bank accounts that they said were linked to Zlochevsky and they also sought help from the Ukraine to build a money-laundering case against him. In response, the Ukraine opened investigations into Zlochevsky and Burisma with Viktor Shokin handling parts of the investigation as first a deputy prosecutor and then later on as the prosecutor general.

Zlochevsky and Burisma both denied doing anything wrong, but in May they started hiring overseas claiming it was an attempt to clean up their image and be more transparent. As part of that they hired Hunter Biden and Devon Archer onto the Board , paying them via the Rosemont Seneca Bohai LLC, about $225,000 a year for the position (according to the Boston Globe, a Board Member on a large Oil and Gas Company can expect to be paid up to about $258,000 a year.)

Any issues yet?

In December of 2014, the US sent the Ukrainian Government a letter saying that the Prosecutor was not helping the UK case, and according to the new Deputy Prosecutor, Vitaliy Kasko, Shokin had allowed the case to languish uninvestigated. The case in the UK ended up collapsing, and according to the US Ambassador of the time, this was because the Ukrainian Prosecutorial Office had subverted the UK probe through their inaction.

Any issues with this so far?

Once the UK investigations fell through the US Embassy sent through to the State Department that Shokin was failing to investigate corruption charges, and that pressure needed to be applied to force a change. This was backed up by the IMF and also public protests in the Ukraine itself where the general public were calling for change because Shokin wasn't doing his job (according to everyone but Shokin himself.)

At this point the US sent Joe Binden to the Ukraine with the message of, "Get rid of Shokin and get the corruption investigations moving, or you lose a $1 billion loan guarantee." He did this, telling them “If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money." Following this, Shokin was fired in March of 2016, and the loan guarantee came through. Yuriy Lutsenko was appointed the new Prosecutor and it appears that the Investigation into Zlochevsky and Burisma was quickly restarted, because in a little over 6 months later, January of 2017, Burisma issued a statement saying that all legal proceedings and criminal allegations against them and Zlochevsky were closed and they agreed to paid any taxes they were found to owe.

So all parties, with the exception Shokin, agree that Shokin was failing to do his job and was allowing that corruption investigation to languish, resulting in the collapse of the UK Investigation, and that the only way to complete the investigation was to remove him and put in place someone willing to actually do the job.

Yuriy Lutsenko has subsequently passed to US Authorities all payment information from Burisma to US Citizens, including Hunter Biden, for US to make sure that Taxes were paid correctly, and the IRD has never started any proceedings into those payments.

So... Biden, following the State Department, forced the removal of a Prosecutor, who according to everyone but himself, was failing to investigate corruption charges which resulted in the failure of an impeding case. Hunter was brought onto the company's board after that case was started and was paid a fair wage and seems to have paid the correct taxes on that wage. The new prosecutor restarted the case and found no evidence of corruption by the company or its founder. Hunter was never suspected or investigated for corruption in his dealing with the company or its board, nor was the company during his time as a member of the board.

So please, can you explain where the issue is here?
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Old 27th September 2019, 07:20 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Right now the Republican response seems to be "what's the big deal?" As if withholding aid to pressure a foreign government to go after political opponent is not a big deal. Its amazing that so many are trying to do that with a straight face.
According to a recent poll, 26% of voters don't see it as a problem, with another nearly 20% not sure if it is or not. Just 56% thought it was an impeachable offence.
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Old 27th September 2019, 07:27 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Right now the Republican response seems to be "what's the big deal?" As if withholding aid to pressure a foreign government to go after political opponent is not a big deal. Its amazing that so many are trying to do that with a straight face.

Trump doesn't actually care about curtailing corruption abroad except when it might involve a political opponent. Especially when it's one he's terrified of. Especially one who in every poll beats him handily.

If people can't see this, they are
1.not paying attention
2. Stupid as a post
Or
3. So biased they cannot bring themselves to be intellectually honest.
These things roll like a snowball down hill. They grow.
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Old 27th September 2019, 07:35 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So maybe a Republican supporter can explain the issue here....[snip]

So please, can you explain where the issue is here?
A link or two would be nice just to see who your sources are.


For anyone else, does anyone have any info on what qualified Hunter Biden to join this company's board and how he was connected to them in the first place?
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Old 27th September 2019, 07:37 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
According to a recent poll, 26% of voters don't see it as a problem, with another nearly 20% not sure if it is or not. Just 56% thought it was an impeachable offence.
Here's the thing about polls. And I know polling well. Having worked for a pollster for a few years. It's damn hard to do well. Getting a representative sample is tough to do and it's even harder today with fewer and fewer people having a land line. Then a lot depends on how you phrase the question.

But frankly, those numbers are horrible for Trump. 56 to 26 and even if all the clueless people break his way (highly unlikely) he still gets beat in the election by 10 points.
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Old 27th September 2019, 09:29 PM   #406
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YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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Old 27th September 2019, 09:32 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
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The Democrats have all the campaign commercials they need, ready made. They just have to recognize them.
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:44 PM   #408
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It's being reported that in the meeting with Russian officials in 2017 in which Trump gave away classified information, he also told them that he didn't mind that Russia had interfered in the election
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Old 27th September 2019, 11:58 PM   #409
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Trump will be acquitted on all charges due to the legal principles of: "he isn't like other politicians, therefore we can't judge him by any 'convential standards'."
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Old 28th September 2019, 02:44 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Have you read the opinion piece we're talking about? It really is amazingly condescending. Reading it in context does nothing to rehabilitate it.
The reporter was talking to people who betrayed their country. It's okay to be condescending to them. They earned their derision.
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Old 28th September 2019, 03:57 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Yesterday I heard a report that, upon learning that there were additional phone transcripts squirrelled away in that secure computer system, House Intel issued an order for the preservation of evidence. If any scrubbing were to be found out, new crimes would be committed.
What if they use Bleachbit?
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Old 28th September 2019, 04:42 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
For anyone else, does anyone have any info on what qualified Hunter Biden to join this company's board and how he was connected to them in the first place?

It was mentioned earlier here or in another thread, but putting an unqualified person on a board of directors based on their name or image, and having them not actually do anything is SOP for corporations around the world.
For example, Shaquille O'Neal joined the board of directors of Papa John's Pizza earlier this year. His main function appears to be making commercials in which he talks about being a board member.
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Old 28th September 2019, 04:51 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
It was mentioned earlier here or in another thread, but putting an unqualified person on a board of directors based on their name or image, and having them not actually do anything is SOP for corporations around the world.
For example, Shaquille O'Neal joined the board of directors of Papa John's Pizza earlier this year. His main function appears to be making commercials in which he talks about being a board member.
True. That said, Bush2 appointed Hunter Biden to the board of Amtrak. Presumably that happened because Biden was perceived as capable.
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Old 28th September 2019, 04:57 AM   #414
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"Jobs for the Boys" is something that is next to impossible to avoid:
Do we think that Justin Kennedy, son of Anthony Kennedy, got a big job at Deutsche Bank just because he was so qualified?
What about the revolving door between Banking/Defense and Politics? What about Internships on the Hill?

Whatever Hunter Biden did is something that mundane that you will find tens of thousands of cases if you want to make any effort to look. Doesn't make it right, but doesn't make it a scandal,either.
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Old 28th September 2019, 05:06 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
A link or two would be nice just to see who your sources are.
most of it can be found here... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...den-in-ukraine with loads of links for their sources.

Quote:
For anyone else, does anyone have any info on what qualified Hunter Biden to join this company's board and how he was connected to them in the first place?
Here's the wayback machine link to the press release of his joining.... https://web.archive.org/web/20140513...isma-holdings/
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Old 28th September 2019, 06:11 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
"Jobs for the Boys" is something that is next to impossible to avoid:
Do we think that Justin Kennedy, son of Anthony Kennedy, got a big job at Deutsche Bank just because he was so qualified?
What about the revolving door between Banking/Defense and Politics? What about Internships on the Hill?

Whatever Hunter Biden did is something that mundane that you will find tens of thousands of cases if you want to make any effort to look. Doesn't make it right, but doesn't make it a scandal,either.
It's why the Republicans aren't making an issue of Biden Junior's having such a position: so many of them have their own children in such positions.

Few so blatantly as Trump, though, with self-declared "First Daughter" (that's not a thing, they told her, but she didn't listen) Ivanka Trump mooning around the corridors of power, trying to talk to people.
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Old 28th September 2019, 06:29 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's why the Republicans aren't making an issue of Biden Junior's having such a position: so many of them have their own children in such positions.

Few so blatantly as Trump, though, with self-declared "First Daughter" (that's not a thing, they told her, but she didn't listen) Ivanka Trump mooning around the corridors of power, trying to talk to people.
A high ranking member of the Trump 2020 campaign (the chairman?) was on TV whining about Biden Jr landing a plum job while dad was in power. The interviewer asked about Ivanka and her Chinese trademarks. The guy got flustered right away. It seemed he was entirely unprepared for the question.

The cult is very insular after all. This emanates from Mr. Don't Show Me Things That Upset Me.
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Old 28th September 2019, 07:09 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
True. That said, Bush2 appointed Hunter Biden to the board of Amtrak. Presumably that happened because Biden was perceived as capable.

Looking at Hunter Biden's career and the positions he has held it appears to me that he is likely more capable than many board members.
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Old 28th September 2019, 08:06 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Looking at Hunter Biden's career and the positions he has held it appears to me that he is likely more capable than many board members.
Yup. Based on his wikipedia page, he's a lawyer, got work experience in banking and the Dept. of Commerce, was nominated to the board of Amtrak by Bush Jr., but resigned after Joe B. became VP, then got into investing and law. Everyone knows he got the nomination to Burisma board because of his last name, but it doesn't sound like he's unqualified for the job. *cough*Ivanka*cough*
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Old 28th September 2019, 01:06 PM   #420
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Thanks PW for the links and everyone for the info on Hunter B.



There was a meme on this upthread but here are some links on it:

Kellyanne Conway is trying to insert the talking point, Pelosi was coerced by the men in her caucus.

Boston Globe: Kellyanne Conway Says Pelosi Succumbed to Pressure from Men on Impeachment

HuffPo words it differently: Kellyanne Conway Lobs Sexist Dig At Nancy Pelosi, Says She Caved To Men On Impeachment
Quote:
“She does the worst thing a woman in power can do ... she just changes her mind because the men around her said, ’Change your mind,’” Trump’s aide claimed.
I wonder how long it took Conway to come up with that one?
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Old 28th September 2019, 02:01 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Thanks PW for the links and everyone for the info on Hunter B.



There was a meme on this upthread but here are some links on it:

Kellyanne Conway is trying to insert the talking point, Pelosi was coerced by the men in her caucus.

Boston Globe: Kellyanne Conway Says Pelosi Succumbed to Pressure from Men on Impeachment

HuffPo words it differently: Kellyanne Conway Lobs Sexist Dig At Nancy Pelosi, Says She Caved To Men On Impeachment


I wonder how long it took Conway to come up with that one?
With that kind of reasoning, I wonder if she's a trumper just because her husband isn't.
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Old 28th September 2019, 02:08 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
With that kind of reasoning, I wonder if she's a trumper just because her husband isn't.
Unless Conway eventually confesses, we'll probably never know.
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Old 28th September 2019, 03:58 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Thanks PW for the links and everyone for the info on Hunter B.



There was a meme on this upthread but here are some links on it:

Kellyanne Conway is trying to insert the talking point, Pelosi was coerced by the men in her caucus.

Boston Globe: Kellyanne Conway Says Pelosi Succumbed to Pressure from Men on Impeachment

HuffPo words it differently: Kellyanne Conway Lobs Sexist Dig At Nancy Pelosi, Says She Caved To Men On Impeachment


I wonder how long it took Conway to come up with that one?
Knowing Nancy Pelosi, that sounds really unlikely, no way she is going to do something because "men" told her to.
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Old 28th September 2019, 04:29 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Knowing Nancy Pelosi, that sounds really unlikely, no way she is going to do something because "men" told her to.
You can stretch like the wind when you are gaslighting.
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Old 28th September 2019, 05:01 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You can stretch like the wind when you are gaslighting.
I don't think you understand me. We agree on Pelosi. There is no way she is going to base her position on Trumps impeachment on what some man told her to do (meaning because he is a man, which seems to be the implication). Yes, you know from our previous interactions that I am not a Democrat, but I am also not a Republican, and certainly not a Trump supporter. Not everyone easily fits into a pigeonhole.
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Old 28th September 2019, 05:46 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
I don't think you understand me. We agree on Pelosi. There is no way she is going to base her position on Trumps impeachment on what some man told her to do (meaning because he is a man, which seems to be the implication). Yes, you know from our previous interactions that I am not a Democrat, but I am also not a Republican, and certainly not a Trump supporter. Not everyone easily fits into a pigeonhole.
I understood, and wasn't disagreeing.

I was suggesting how Conway could be so stupid: she didn't care, it was pure gaslighting.
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Old 28th September 2019, 06:19 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Here's the thing about polls. And I know polling well. Having worked for a pollster for a few years. It's damn hard to do well. Getting a representative sample is tough to do and it's even harder today with fewer and fewer people having a land line. Then a lot depends on how you phrase the question.

But frankly, those numbers are horrible for Trump. 56 to 26 and even if all the clueless people break his way (highly unlikely) he still gets beat in the election by 10 points.
people moan about Trump having a 40/45 % apporval rating, what they don't get is that any sitting president with a "R" after his name will get that. (And same goes for any President with a "D" after his name. It the 15 to 20% that don't have a emotinal commitment to any party who decide elections.
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Old 28th September 2019, 06:29 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I understood, and wasn't disagreeing.

I was suggesting how Conway could be so stupid: she didn't care, it was pure gaslighting.
Oh, ok. Agree on Conway then, don't know about the gaslighting but she was really cranking up the spin machine when she claimed Pelosi was succumbing to pressure from men.
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Old 28th September 2019, 06:49 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Oh, ok. Agree on Conway then, don't know about the gaslighting but she was really cranking up the spin machine when she claimed Pelosi was succumbing to pressure from men.
Which is a weird story to concoct after trump claiming Pelosi was under the thumb of the four women.
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Old 28th September 2019, 06:59 PM   #430
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Anyone who think Pelosi does anything because a man told her to is an idiot. Oh, yeah...we're talking Conway. Never mind.
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Old 28th September 2019, 07:16 PM   #431
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I think Pelosi is slightly less for impeachment right now at this point in time then a lot of the rest of the Democratic party, but that's about it.

In other words if Pelosi was the final say and didn't care/take into consideration anyone else's opinion I doubt we'd be impeaching Trump right now.
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Old 28th September 2019, 07:18 PM   #432
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Look for Trump to either fire Mick Mulvaney or for Mick Mulvaney to suddenly decide to step down soon. Apparently Trump's not happy with how he's handling the impeachment threat.
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Old 28th September 2019, 07:20 PM   #433
Tero
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
According to a recent poll, 26% of voters don't see it as a problem, with another nearly 20% not sure if it is or not. Just 56% thought it was an impeachable offence.
So 102% answered the poll? That must be a bunch of excited voters.
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Old 28th September 2019, 08:00 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Look for Trump to either fire Mick Mulvaney or for Mick Mulvaney to suddenly decide to step down soon. Apparently Trump's not happy with how he's handling the impeachment threat.

I would love to know how someone could handle it better.
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Old 28th September 2019, 08:03 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
people moan about Trump having a 40/45 % apporval rating, what they don't get is that any sitting president with a "R" after his name will get that. (And same goes for any President with a "D" after his name. It the 15 to 20% that don't have a emotinal commitment to any party who decide elections.
Pretty much the way it is.

Given that the economy hasn't collapsed he would be cruising to an easy reelection if he was almost any other politician.

But Trump isn't like any other politician. Other politicians reach out to the center and undecideds. But not Trump, he lives for the adoration he gets from the wingnuts. So the tiny margin of victory he had for a tiny sliver of time in November of 2016 is not only gone, he quickly alienated the center group who decide elections and he hasn't done anything to win them back. Trump has not only done nothing to expand his base, he's alienated everyone but his base. And even though he has some extra rabid supporters it's nowhere near enough to win. With the exception of Florida Trump has lost 10 points in every swing state he won in the last election.
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Old 28th September 2019, 08:29 PM   #436
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We have never had a President with a personality cult like Trump before.
If he did not have a bunch of people who think he is Dear Leader, the GOPer n congress could make the case with their base that with Pence you could have the same policies but without all the baggage, but
that is impossbiel as long so many Republicans think that Don is the Messiah.
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Old 28th September 2019, 09:48 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think Pelosi is slightly less for impeachment right now at this point in time then a lot of the rest of the Democratic party, but that's about it.

In other words if Pelosi was the final say and didn't care/take into consideration anyone else's opinion I doubt we'd be impeaching Trump right now.
You don't know that.
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Old 28th September 2019, 10:32 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
He deserves the nickname "Benedict Donald" now more then ever.
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Old 28th September 2019, 11:58 PM   #439
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Nice summary PhantomWolf.

One thing doesn't go far enough.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The case in the UK ended up collapsing, and according to the US Ambassador of the time, this was because the Ukrainian Prosecutorial Office had subverted the UK probe through their inaction.
You can find the Judge's decision for this case online (sorry, I don't have the link or the case # anymore), qnd the Judge notes that the PGO provided statements attesting to Zlochevsky's lack of criminal prosecutions in Ukraine. So the PGO, under Shokin, dragged their feet to provide evidence against Zulchevsky but gound time to provided evidence for him.
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Old 29th September 2019, 02:39 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
So 102% answered the poll? That must be a bunch of excited voters.
only if you assume that nearly 20% equals 20% rather than 18%.
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