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Tags 2020 elections , hillary clinton , presidential candidates , Russia conspiracies , Tulsi Gabbard

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Old 21st October 2019, 12:29 PM   #281
carlosy
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Trump is defending Gabbard. Talk about the kiss of death...
Yes, of course he his.

But who laid the ground for him being able to rub salt into that wound and devide the Dems further?

Well done Mrs. Clinton!

Talking about russian assets...
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Old 21st October 2019, 12:31 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Looks to me like kellyb is correct that "Russian asset" is not the correct phrase to describe this. BTW I haven't seen that Clinton used that phrase. Did she?
Tbf, "Russian asset" sounds better than "useful idiot for Russia".
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Old 21st October 2019, 12:34 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
Yes, of course he his.

But who laid the ground for him being able to rub salt into that wound and devide the Dems further?

Well done Mrs. Clinton!

Talking about russian assets...
You DO realize that Russia is workin' both the anti and pro side of this tempest in a teapot? (probably).
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Old 21st October 2019, 12:48 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
You DO realize that Russia is workin' both the anti and pro side of this tempest in a teapot? (probably).
Someone gets it.

It's one of those situations where the question is "well does Russia want us to believe X or believe Y?"

And the answer of course is "yes."
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Old 21st October 2019, 12:53 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Tbf, "Russian asset" sounds better than "useful idiot for Russia".
Not if that's what it means. Hillary's not stupid. Gabbard's not stupid. We're not stupid. "Russian asset" sounds exactly as bad as "useful idiot for Russa" because that's exactly what it is.

It's a crap accusation, though. "If you pursue a political career, the Russians will have won!" That's just a crappy way of shaming/intimidating someone into silence.
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Old 21st October 2019, 01:02 PM   #286
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Quote:
Facebook on Monday disclosed that it had taken down a new foreign interference operation targeting the US 2020 presidential elections that appears to be linked to the Russian troll agency, the Internet Research Agency (IRA).

The 50 Instagram accounts and one Facebook account “had the hallmarks of a well-resourced operation”, the company said in a*blog post. The accounts had about 246,000 followers, and published nearly 75,000 posts, according to*Graphika, a social network analysis company that reviewed the campaign for Facebook.*

The campaign included accounts that promoted both “conservative” and “progressive” content, resharing memes and tweets on potentially divisive topics in a manner similar to the IRA’s 2016 social media influence campaign.*

While most of the posts were focused on polarizing political issues, some specifically addressed the 2020 election, according to Graphika. These included posts supporting*Donald Trump*and*Bernie Sanders, and attacking*Joe Biden. Some also attacked*Kamala Harris*and*Elizabeth Warren.*
I don't believe a word of it! Putin promised Russia would do no such thing, and even Trump agreed with this trustworthy individual. It must be lies cooked up by Soros and his henchman again. Someone must reign him in!
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Old 21st October 2019, 01:04 PM   #287
carlosy
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
You DO realize that Russia is workin' both the anti and pro side of this tempest in a teapot? (probably).
Of course I do.

But what about Mrs. Clinton and those who support her russian asset statement?
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Old 21st October 2019, 01:39 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump's State Department just pronounced that Clinton did nothing wrong in her handling of classified emails.
That's something all the media got wrong in 2016.
That's odd. Why announce it? The machinations of this government baffle me.
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Old 21st October 2019, 01:53 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'll slice this two ways.

1) Would the Russian government go purchasing underlying analytics data from the Kremlin Intel services slush fund or would it be useful to obfuscate it with a shell company or three?

2) Why is the Russian government trying to make money in the clickbait article industry? The best companies out there make very little at it and that's without also having a massive staff of people 24/7/365 just trolling social media...in the same building...in oddly compartmentalized units...

Basically any attempt to explain a single element of IRA as normal or having parallels elsewhere starts to unravel when you plug it back into the totality of the operation.
My sense, and I could be wrong, is that the IRA is an all-purpose privately owned troll farm for hire. They were probably doing stuff for the Russian gov, AND stuff just to make money.

The Mueller indictment said:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43091945

Quote:
“Defendants and their co-conspirators also used the accounts to receive money from real U.S. persons in exchange for posting promotions and advertisements on the ORGANIZATION-controlled social media pages. Defendants and their coconspirators typically charged certain US merchants and US social media sites between 25 and 50 US dollars per post for promotional content on their popular false US persona accounts, including Being Patriotic, Defend the 2nd, and Blacktivist.”
Some of the time operating like this (from Macadonia):

https://www.wired.com/2017/02/veles-...nia-fake-news/

Quote:
THE FIRST ARTICLE about Donald Trump that Boris ever published described how, during a campaign rally in North Carolina, the candidate slapped a man in the audience for disagreeing with him. This never happened, of course. Boris had found the article somewhere online, and he needed to feed his web*site, Daily Interesting Things, so he appropriated the text, down to its last mis*begotten comma. He posted the link on Facebook, seeding it within various groups devoted to American politics; to his astonish*ment, it was shared around 800 times. That month—February 2016—Boris made more than $150 off the Google ads on his website. Considering this to be the best possible use of his time, he stopped going to high school.
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Old 21st October 2019, 01:59 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
That's odd. Why announce it? The machinations of this government baffle me.
Because Trump's State Dept. conducted a new investigation hoping for a an outcome different from all previous investigations.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/u...on-emails.html

Last edited by Bob001; 21st October 2019 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 21st October 2019, 02:05 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
My sense, and I could be wrong, is that the IRA is an all-purpose privately owned troll farm for hire. They were probably doing stuff for the Russian gov, AND stuff just to make money.



The Mueller indictment said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43091945







Some of the time operating like this (from Macadonia):



https://www.wired.com/2017/02/veles-...nia-fake-news/
To be clear, when I refer to IRA I tend to stick to its 2011-ish form as that is now a well-documented era of operation. Invoking the name for current events is a misnomer, as it is now many different entities, many times larger, and more decentralized and hidden than it was at that time.

ETA: IRA was basically a domestic PsyOp working to assist Putin's reelection. After that, they built a more sophisticated version for international political espionage.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 21st October 2019 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 21st October 2019, 02:07 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not if that's what it means. Hillary's not stupid. Gabbard's not stupid. We're not stupid. "Russian asset" sounds exactly as bad as "useful idiot for Russa" because that's exactly what it is.

It's a crap accusation, though. "If you pursue a political career, the Russians will have won!" That's just a crappy way of shaming/intimidating someone into silence.
That's not what the word "asset" ever meant before Russiagate.

It's borrowing the definition of "asset" as the word is used in economics, as in "financial asset", and applying it to geopolitical and spy stuff.

Nobody ever called anti-war or anti-nuclear voices "Soviet assets" during the Cold War. Nobody called Cindy Sheehan an "al-Qaeda asset" during the war on terror/Iraq war.

This new definition and use of the word of "asset" is really dangerous for democracy, and I think we should stop using it and legitimizing it.
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Old 21st October 2019, 02:10 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
To be clear, when I refer to IRA I tend to stick to its 2011-ish form as that is now a well-documented era of operation. Invoking the name for current events is a misnomer, as it is now many different entities, many times larger, and more decentralized and hidden than it was at that time.

ETA: IRA was basically a domestic PsyOp working to assist Putin's reelection. After that, they built a more sophisticated version for international political espionage.
Can I get a link on what they were doing in 2011?
The wiki doesn't mention them as being active before 2014 (in Ukraine):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
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Old 21st October 2019, 02:19 PM   #294
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
[b]...Nobody ever called anti-war or anti-nuclear voices "Soviet assets" during the Cold War...
They just called them Commie Peaceniks.
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Old 21st October 2019, 02:22 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And you're where?
Quebec.

Quote:
You get that Hillary Clinton was Bill's First Lady for his eight years in the White House, and was twice elected U.S. Senator from New York, right?
Yes, I get that part. I don't know about her Olympics aspirations, however.
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Old 21st October 2019, 02:25 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
They just called them Commie Peaceniks.
Which was way less awful than calling them Soviet assets would have been.
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Old 21st October 2019, 02:44 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Quebec.

Yes, I get that part. I don't know about her Olympics aspirations, however.
I don't think they have a Senior Division (although that would certainly be interesting).
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Old 21st October 2019, 02:55 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's not what the word "asset" ever meant before Russiagate.

It's borrowing the definition of "asset" as the word is used in economics, as in "financial asset", and applying it to geopolitical and spy stuff.

Nobody ever called anti-war or anti-nuclear voices "Soviet assets" during the Cold War. Nobody called Cindy Sheehan an "al-Qaeda asset" during the war on terror/Iraq war.

This new definition and use of the word of "asset" is really dangerous for democracy, and I think we should stop using it and legitimizing it.
I think "useful idiot" is perfectly synonymous with "asset" as it has been commonly used over the years. I think it is exactly in this sense that Hillary meant it.

My only question is whether some people actually think Hillary meant Gabbard is a literal Russian agent, and whether some people actually think that Gabbard is a literal Russian agent.

I'm not actually interested in the term, nor in the defiition of the term. I'm only interesting in what Hillary meant by it, and what other people in this conversation mean by it. I hope that makes sense. I don't care what the dictionary says it means. I care what you mean when you say it.
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Old 21st October 2019, 02:57 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Can I get a link on what they were doing in 2011?

The wiki doesn't mention them as being active before 2014 (in Ukraine):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
You are correct, my timeline was off.
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Old 21st October 2019, 03:00 PM   #300
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I'm also reminded of a piece on NPR during 2016 election post-mortem where they tracked down some of the owners of clickbait sites here in the U.S. and it was liberal-leaning suburbanites pushing alt-right garbage because that's where the money was.

In so many ways the social media/analytics game is "we have seen the enemy, and they are us."
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Old 21st October 2019, 03:06 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think "useful idiot" is perfectly synonymous with "asset" as it has been commonly used over the years. I think it is exactly in this sense that Hillary meant it.

My only question is whether some people actually think Hillary meant Gabbard is a literal Russian agent, and whether some people actually think that Gabbard is a literal Russian agent.

I'm not actually interested in the term, nor in the defiition of the term. I'm only interesting in what Hillary meant by it, and what other people in this conversation mean by it. I hope that makes sense. I don't care what the dictionary says it means. I care what you mean when you say it.
It has not been commonly been used that way over the years, though. Before Russiagate, "Russia asset" either mean a literal spy for Russia, or a financial/economic asset, like cash or property.

You might be fine with this warping of language, but I'm not.
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Old 21st October 2019, 03:09 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It has not been commonly been used that way over the years, though. Before Russiagate, "Russia asset" either mean a literal spy for Russia, or a financial/economic asset, like cash or property.

You might be fine with this warping of language, but I'm not.
I don't care about that. I care what Hillary meant. I care what others in this thread mean. If your deal is the warping of language, by all means carry on. But arguing with me about it is pointless. Because I. Don't. Care.
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Old 21st October 2019, 03:16 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'm also reminded of a piece on NPR during 2016 election post-mortem where they tracked down some of the owners of clickbait sites here in the U.S. and it was liberal-leaning suburbanites pushing alt-right garbage because that's where the money was.

In so many ways the social media/analytics game is "we have seen the enemy, and they are us."
Yeah, that's part of what I was thinking of when I said this, too:

Quote:
I kinda suspect most of our disinfo websites, agents, bots and troll might be homegrown. A lot of this stuff is what I would do if I were some mastermind at the Heritage Foundation, or some other (probably lesser known) diabolical rightwing think tank.
I haven't even seen anyone rule out the use of proxies with this stuff, either.
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Old 21st October 2019, 03:23 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't care about that. I care what Hillary meant. I care what others in this thread mean. If your deal is the warping of language, by all means carry on. But arguing with me about it is pointless. Because I. Don't. Care.
It's meant to CONFLATE being an actual agent or operative of Russia, with someone who's merely insufficiently dedicated to thwarting anything Russia might want.

eta:
Between 2014-2016, "Russian asset" meant "financial assets of Russia."

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22R...ax%3A2016&tbm=

2016-2018, it suddenly means this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22R...31%2F2018&tbm=


https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...rts-say-2018-7
Quote:
National security experts warn Trump is behaving more and more like a 'controlled spy'
Quote:
Glenn Carle, a longtime former CIA spy, said he wasn't the least bit surprised by Trump's actions because "it's becoming more and more clear that Trump is either a witting or unwitting Russian asset."

"People say this is so mystifying, but it's not," Carle said. "Intelligence assets become convinced to be spies for multiple reasons. It might start with kompromat or financial hooks, and the asset may be convinced he is acting as a patriot until he becomes accustomed to his role."

Carle added: "Trump clearly responds favorably to praise. And over the years, the handling officer — Putin, in this case — realizes what the asset wants, and that's what they provide. Trump wants to be told he's the greatest, so that's what you tell him, over and over again, until he comes to believe that is the motivation for his actions."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...russian-asset/

Quote:
The entire Republican Party is becoming a Russian asset
Quote:
But look past the modest number of Republicans saying that Trump has gone a bit too far here or there, and you see a very different picture. The truth is that the entire GOP is well on its way to becoming a Russian asset.
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Last edited by kellyb; 21st October 2019 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 21st October 2019, 04:00 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah, that's part of what I was thinking of when I said this, too:
We have our own, yes. But none of them I'm aware of (even think tanks) have the kind of cash reserves to go staffing whole buildings full of people essentially brainstorming in public in real time, let alone to have very high-level minds in terms of behavioral analysis to look at the results with a mind to weaponize it. Especially in the sense of making it so the way people react to the information being both an intended outcome and part of propagating towards yet further goals.

The party committees are up to their eyeballs in debts to service the bloated vendors that feed on them, they couldn't come close to this kind of sophistication. They still struggle to put together a decently acceptable 30 second TV spot.
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Old 21st October 2019, 04:03 PM   #306
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Nice article from The Moscow Times.

Putin’s ‘Useful Idiots’ Are Those Who Call Others ‘Useful Idiots’
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Old 21st October 2019, 04:11 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
The ol' Reverse-Whammy, Double Whammy, Whammy Whammy trick! It's the second time this week that I've fallen for it.
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Old 21st October 2019, 04:17 PM   #308
kellyb
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
We have our own, yes. But none of them I'm aware of (even think tanks) have the kind of cash reserves to go staffing whole buildings full of people essentially brainstorming in public in real time, let alone to have very high-level minds in terms of behavioral analysis to look at the results with a mind to weaponize it. Especially in the sense of making it so the way people react to the information being both an intended outcome and part of propagating towards yet further goals.

The party committees are up to their eyeballs in debts to service the bloated vendors that feed on them, they couldn't come close to this kind of sophistication. They still struggle to put together a decently acceptable 30 second TV spot.
That highlighted part is where I'm not completely convinced the Russians were doing that. Maybe they were. It might be wise to operate on the assumption they were.

I consider it more likely than not that domestic rightwing "think tank" type organizations were/are paying troll farms (the farms could be anywhere on earth) to propagate messages, and the scholarly sorts analyzing the data, too, though.

FWIW, I saw a lot of pro-Hillary bots in 2016 on facebook, too. In 2015, Hillary's "Ready for Hillary" page (before the slogan switched to "I'm with her") had a neverending stream, like 20 comments a minute, of supportive comments from fake accounts.

I guess I just see whatever is going on as a lot more complex than The Russians alone being diabolical and well-resourced masterminds, and everyone else just passively on the receiving end of such tactics and techniques.
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Old 21st October 2019, 04:20 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I was just reading a bunch of that author's work and reading his twitter feed last night!

He seems to know what he's talking about.

He takes a really "appropriately cynical about Russia" yet non hysterical/paranoid approach to this stuff.
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Old 21st October 2019, 05:52 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It has not been commonly been used that way over the years, though. Before Russiagate, "Russia asset" either mean a literal spy for Russia, or a financial/economic asset, like cash or property.

You might be fine with this warping of language, but I'm not.
Can you support your side of the argument? I'm a bit weary of this particular back and forth. Several posters have indicated that the term HAS been used that way, so it'd be nice if someone provided some sort of evidence to close the argument so we can move on here.
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:07 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Someone gets it.

It's one of those situations where the question is "well does Russia want us to believe X or believe Y?"

And the answer of course is "yes."
Right. Russia's tactic is to increase division as much as possible. That's why they also magnified some 'Bernie Bro' lines of thought in 2016 as well as pro-Trump stuff.

Of the candidates still making debates, Gabbard seems by far most likely to feed division inside the Dems at this point. Watch them to amplify any claims of the DNC 'screwing' whatever candidate comes in second (unless it's Biden).

Again, this isn't an attack on Gabbard per se (to be transparent, I think her assessment of foreign policy and America's place in the international community is probably the worst of any of the 'major' candidates and I don't like her grievance based arguments), but it's just what Russia's going to do.

Bots have been spamming Facebook posts for a long time with basically the same 'Telsi is the democrat's only chance at beating Trump'. Also note the Russian aligned and Trump aligned posters are making a lot of the exact same arguments including posting the same false ('satire') story.
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:10 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Can you support your side of the argument? I'm a bit weary of this particular back and forth. Several posters have indicated that the term HAS been used that way, so it'd be nice if someone provided some sort of evidence to close the argument so we can move on here.
I've already done it in the pages before.
See this post:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=231

And:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=232

And:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=234

And:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=304

At some point, you have to either admit I'm right or provide evidence to the contrary.
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:14 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Right. Russia's tactic is to increase division as much as possible. That's why they also magnified some 'Bernie Bro' lines of thought in 2016 as well as pro-Trump stuff.

Of the candidates still making debates, Gabbard seems by far most likely to feed division inside the Dems at this point.
Getting people online to accuse other people of being "Russian assets" would be a good, division-causing move, too.
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Old 21st October 2019, 07:05 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Getting people online to accuse other people of being "Russian assets" would be a good, division-causing move, too.
Of course. But we found out last time that being lowkey about such interference doesn't work very well at all.

It isn't necessary for something to be false for it to be useful for Russia to amplify. Indeed many divisive things are argument and opinion that others make in good faith. Leveraging existing beliefs and fractures is a lot easier against the Dems because they don't fall into the same reality-denial to the same extent that the modern GOP has and Dems are self-reflective over thinkers to a fault. Outright fake news won't hit as hard as amplifying actual disagreement.

We can't just dismiss interference and we can't get to a place where the accusation of interference or amplification is used as an attack. We can't just dismiss arguments that get amplified as made up.

My basic advice is awareness removes a lot of the power. We should realize that anything that gets our hackles up is probably being pushed by Russia, so don't get too excited but don't outright dismiss either. Take the arguments on their merits. Don't put too much, if any, stock of 'what other people seem to be saying'. Follow the evidence. Also that Clinton is the wrong person to be pointing things like this out. It doesn't matter if it's true, or if she phrases it perfectly, a lot of independents and some dems just have not internalized how much of negative feelings against her are made up whole cloth. Ironically we have to fight against those same attacks poisoning other people.

I'd say that Gabbard's reaction is not the way to go either.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 10:32 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Dems are self-reflective over thinkers to a fault.
You forgot "humble to a fault"
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Old 22nd October 2019, 10:36 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
At some point, you have to either admit I'm right or provide evidence to the contrary.
I really don't. Your links either talk about ideal assets, or speak more generally and in a way which agrees with your opponents, or even mention unwitting assets. You shot yourself in the foot, there.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 10:39 AM   #317
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Quoted for truth. Kelly made an excellent point and got nothing but opinions in return. Therefore I see no need to consider a depiction of "asset" as something the person in question does without intent until usage of that term in that way before the current smear campaign is established.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 10:41 AM   #318
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Quoted for truth. Kelly made an excellent point and got nothing but opinions in return. Therefore I see no need to consider a depiction of "asset" as something the person in question does without intent until usage of that term in that way before the current smear campaign is established.
Even if Kelly was correct about the word's usage in the past, the point is about its usage NOW.

You know that the word "with" used to mean "against"?
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Old 22nd October 2019, 10:48 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Even if Kelly was correct about the word's usage in the past, the point is about its usage NOW.

Nope, the point is the complete opposite and you know it. It is about an orwellian change of meaning and you have yet to prove that this isn't what happened.

We always have been at war with talkative Canadians.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 10:51 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Nope, the point is the complete opposite and you know it.
What in Rasputin's name are you blabbering about? Don't tell me what I know. I meant what I say and I say what I mean.

Quote:
It is about an orwellian change of meaning and you have yet to prove that this isn't what happened.
At worst, the usage changed. That's how language works. People have been using the word "asset" in that way for years. Don't act like this is some shock for you.
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