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Tags Gaza flotilla raid , Israel-Palestine conflict

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Old 31st May 2010, 11:37 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
It's part of redefining words as part of the propaganda war against Israel. See also genocide, pogrom, "collective punishment", apartheid, etc.


And I'm sure anti-semitism has nothing at all to do with it...
collective punishment ... propaganda war?
nonsense, when a blockade is not collective punishment, what is?
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:38 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Only the Israelis would have managed to kill 20 of these idiots. Everyone else would have cuffed a few ears and broken a few bones.

Israels reaction to everything nowadays seems to be to pour more petrol on the flames.
We Jews too powerful to care. Few country complain now but it get forgot in time. I honest Jew who not try to hide behind victim scene. Other Jews here try to pretend victim in term of Israel killing of Palestinians, but they make Jews look dishonest. Mark Regev better Jew talker about excusing IDF killing of pretend aid people in international water.
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:40 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong View Post
Strangely - just as you have just done. Yet another hypocritical argument.

This latest massacre merely demonstrates the completely official nature of the pogrom the apartheid government of Israel is waging against innocent Palestinians children. They would rather murder people than let them help the children of Palestine.

Let us see all watch in contempt as the site zionists enthusiastically support the mass murder by the IDF and watch in contempt as they try and justify this latest massacre.

I note that they have already started onto do so on this thread. How disgusting.
No, there is no attempt at all to redefine words just for Israel's detriment... it's all just my imagination.
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:40 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Only the Israelis would have managed to kill 20 9 of these idiots. ...
Israels reaction to everything nowadays seems to be to pour more petrol on the flames.

Fixed that number for you.

The flames that were lit by IHH deciding to ignore the offer to deliver the aid through legal channels?

I wonder what will happen when the next move by IHH is to try to deliver aid to Gaza by cargo helicopter?
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:45 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
collective punishment ... propaganda war?
nonsense, when a blockade is not collective punishment, what is?
"Collective punishment" was inserted into the GC to thwart such practices as rounding up 100 random townsfolk to execute for the killing of 1 occupying soldier, something the Axis powers were known to do.

It has never been used to describe a blockade of non-essential items, except, of course, for Israel and only Israel.

It's not that the attempt to redefine this term is based on anti-semitism, oh no! It's because Israelis are so special they need to be held to a "higher standard" you see.
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:46 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
No, there is no attempt at all to redefine words just for Israel's detriment... it's all just my imagination.
You do not do cause of Jews good in playing victim in regard to attack on 'aid' ship. Honest Jew would support right of Jews to crush down inferior Palestinians who contaminate Land of Israel. No need for victim of Hamas now. We are too powerful. You know this. Ships to Gaza will be crushed.
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:48 AM   #167
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Zach, you could at least try to use some realism in your trolling. Were you a failed actor or something?
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:57 AM   #168
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My comment about Gaza ship attack correct. This forum seem to allow hostility toward some poster but not other. I not respond back to your hostile talk as many poster have moderator favor here I see. I just talk about thread.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:00 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by bit_pattern View Post
LMAO! Yeah, and the Special Air Service only fly "special" planes, like acrobatic aircraft and triplane's, while the Navy Seals are really dolphin trainers! I mean, look at what their names mean in English!

Oh, the depths apologists will sink to!
It's SEALs, not Seals. It's an acronym, for Sea Air and Land.

The name is actually very descriptive.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:01 PM   #170
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Wow. If only some of the posters on this board were part of the British 'Establishment'. Then we wouldn't have needed all the soul searching or pissed Ł400million up the wall carrying out the Bloody Sunday Inquiry.

'You Para lads came under fire? And you still let some of those bog trotters live? Bloody nancies...do a better job next time'.

Adjourned.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:04 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
The incident has caused a great uproar in Turkey.
many of the activists are Turkish.

This gives high hopes for easy passage through Turkish territory with the Free Kurdistan convoy I'm organizing.

Assuming that there is no double standard, of course.
No, no, it's not a double standard, it's just that there's a special standard just for Israel.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:17 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Captain.Sassy View Post
Is Zach a troll or is he for real?
100% troll. Don't feed etc.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:24 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Another substance-free post from funk!
Not much substace to the same old strawmen arguments trotted out here by defenders of Israel.

Strangely the news reporting I have seen over here (USA) on this is pretty much blaming Israel. I guess they are all anti semites over here.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:28 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
"Collective punishment" was inserted into the GC to thwart such practices as rounding up 100 random townsfolk to execute for the killing of 1 occupying soldier, something the Axis powers were known to do.

It has never been used to describe a blockade of non-essential items, except, of course, for Israel and only Israel.

It's not that the attempt to redefine this term is based on anti-semitism, oh no! It's because Israelis are so special they need to be held to a "higher standard" you see.
Is the wall collective punishment? Are the blockades collective punishment? Lets not get bogged down in GC definitions lets just use the dictionary.

Keep throwing out the anti semite cards and pretending everyone who crtiticises Israel is another EJ Armstrong. It's a great tactic. Cowardly, but great.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:32 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Not much substace to the same old strawmen arguments trotted out here by defenders of Israel.

Strangely the news reporting I have seen over here (USA) on this is pretty much blaming Israel. I guess they are all anti semites over here.
Is that what your panties are in a knot over?

If you think I said it was all due to anti-semitism, it's a reading comprehension failure on your part.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:38 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Is the wall collective punishment? Are the blockades collective punishment? Lets not get bogged down in GC definitions lets just use the dictionary.
If you're going to use the term in the context of the GC (for example claiming it's a war crime) then the GC definition is what you must go by. Meanwhile the goal is to make both definitions one and the same, for Israel anyway.

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Keep throwing out the anti semite cards and pretending everyone who crtiticises Israel is another EJ Armstrong. It's a great tactic. Cowardly, but great.
When people deliberately mislead about any topic here it's fair game to speculate on their motives. Particularly after the misuse has been pointed out to them and they still continue to use the terms.

Ironically, even the term "anti-semite" is being redefined specifically for Israel's detriment.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:53 PM   #177
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For the record: I think shooting 20 lightly armed Guardian readers is really a bit over the top.

I'm sure a better solution must have been possible.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:55 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
If you're going to use the term in the context of the GC (for example claiming it's a war crime) then the GC definition is what you must go by. Meanwhile the goal is to make both definitions one and the same, for Israel anyway.
I am not using the GC, you seem to have brought thi into it. Is it collective punishment or not? It was definitions you wanted to talk about.

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When people deliberately mislead about any topic here it's fair game to speculate on their motives. Particularly after the misuse has been pointed out to them and they still continue to use the terms.
The wall and the blockades are collective punishment. Am I dishonest for saying that?

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Ironically, even the term "anti-semite" is being redefined specifically for Israel's detriment.
Well it is you that seems to use it more than anyone else here. Your definition seems to be different to mine.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:59 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Effective has nothing to do with finding anything. Remeber the rules were put in place to prevent unreasonable dissruption to trade. Countries had found that they could claim they were blockading whoever and then radomly raid ships. This was bad for trade. Instead the requirement was introduced that a blockade be effective. That basicaly meant that they deployed enough force to have a decent chance of stopping the vast majority of ships. There was no requirement that they actualy find anything relivant. For example at least towards the end of WW1 Britian's blockade of Germany was legal.
Israel and Hamas, the ruling party of Gaza, are in a state of armed and under international maritime law under this state of armed conflict Israel can impose a blockade of all maritime traffic, including both civilian and non-civilian traffic.

Official Israeli foreign affairs position: The Gaza flotilla and the maritime blockade of Gaza - Legal background

This flotilla had stated its intentions to break this blockade so there's nothing 'random' about it.

Comparing the ability to stop most traffic on the scale of Britain against Germany was not feasible based on the manpower and the resources required to fully block all traffic coming in and out of the country/territory in question. With the limited amount of coastline Gaza has, this is completely feasible in addition to advances in technology.

Not using the term effective in terms of finding anything. Its to minimize the ability to Hamas to wage war against Israel and to severely limit their supplies and financial lifelines regarding this ability.

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Thus blockades could be used as a tactic of war without causeing widespread dissruption to trade which I'm sure we can all agree is the important thing. All this long predates Isreal however.
Its not a tactic of war if one is already in a state of war. Both you and I know the difficulties in applying international rules of engagement and war in general when dealing with asymmetrical warfare, so I would appreciate that we stop drawing parallels between warring countries like WWII era Britain and Germany and that of Hamas/PLO and Israel.

In addition, the blockade by Britian on Germany hurt Germany's overall campaign of war. This is not necessarily true when it comes to Hamas's asymetric campaign where even one vessel with several tons of military equipment will allow it to drag on this conflict for years to come. For Hamas, its not about timing, for Germany and their axis allies, it was.

The only real disruptions in trade between Israel and Gaza occurred and continues to occur when trade/humanitarian convoys are diverted to Hamas and other terrorist factions posing as working governments and when the trade hubs themselves are attacked closing them down.

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Attacking the UN misses the point. If you are going to make the argument that something is de jure legal and therefor fine it had better be de jure legal which means meeting every de jure requirement no matter how objectionable you find them.
How does it miss the point? The UN itself states that ch VII art 41 is their call based on a vote. Judging by their past abilities to enforce the brunt of their initiatives worldwide, the lateness, and once they receive a charter to act on any conflict, I completely think its relevant since its the international body in the world that is looked upon for clearance and its ability to act in areas of armed conflict and humanitarian functions.

Point out where this is not de jure according to international maritime law regarding a state of armed conflict between two (or more) parties.

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Old 31st May 2010, 01:01 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Is that what your panties are in a knot over?

If you think I said it was all due to anti-semitism, it's a reading comprehension failure on your part.
I never said you did, but you seem to have an obsession about throwing the accusation about liberally. It almost like a shield of steel.
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:04 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post

The wall and the blockades are collective punishment. Am I dishonest for saying that?
Yes, because its a legal term with legal implications. Saying it here on top of the other threads does not make it true.
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:06 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Point out where this is not de jure according to international maritime law regarding a state of armed conflict between two (or more) parties.
That link is hilarious. It's a blockade because we say its a blockade.
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:07 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Yes, because its a legal term with legal implications. Saying it here on top of the other threads does not make it true.
Wrong. They are collective punishments according to the dictionary definition. You have to bring in other nonsense to try and deflect criticism of it.
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:09 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
That link is hilarious. It's a blockade because we say its a blockade.
Nah, I think your statement regarding collective punishment suits this comedy circus better.

Click your heels three times Funk....
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:15 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Wrong. They are collective punishments according to the dictionary definition. You have to bring in other nonsense to try and deflect criticism of it.
Nah retorsion applies better. And a vague vanilla dictionary definition doesn't quite cut it.

And this has been discussed in other threads as well which you were involved in. Crickets as usual in those threads too. I wonder why.

Nice article covering this pillaging of international law

A Critique of the Goldstone Report and its Treatment of International Humanitarian Law

And yeah, covers collective punishment...
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:22 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Nah retorsion applies better. And a vague vanilla dictionary definition doesn't quite cut it.

And this has been discussed in other threads as well which you were involved in. Crickets as usual in those threads too. I wonder why.

Nice article covering this pillaging of international law

A Critique of the Goldstone Report and its Treatment of International Humanitarian Law

And yeah, covers collective punishment...
A collective punishment is one where innocents people suffer for the actions of others. The blockade of Gaza is exactly that. Forget your international law and GC handwaving. Be a man and admit it.

My mother used to use collective punishment against me and my brother. She wouldnt have used weasel words to try and deny it.
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:24 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Nah, I think your statement regarding collective punishment suits this comedy circus better.

Click your heels three times Funk....
That site is almost a parody site. He he. Remember your boots in Iraq crap as well? You are good at the made up stuff eh?
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:27 PM   #188
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Here we go in simple terms

Militants fire rockets -------->Civilians are deprived of basic goods
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:47 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Israel and Hamas, the ruling party of Gaza, are in a state of armed and under international maritime law under this state of armed conflict Israel can impose a blockade of all maritime traffic, including both civilian and non-civilian traffic.

Official Israeli foreign affairs position: The Gaza flotilla and the maritime blockade of Gaza - Legal background

This flotilla had stated its intentions to break this blockade so there's nothing 'random' about it.

Comparing the ability to stop most traffic on the scale of Britain against Germany was not feasible based on the manpower and the resources required to fully block all traffic coming in and out of the country/territory in question. With the limited amount of coastline Gaza has, this is completely feasible in addition to advances in technology.

Not using the term effective in terms of finding anything. Its to minimize the ability to Hamas to wage war against Israel and to severely limit their supplies and financial lifelines regarding this ability.
I know that the blockade meets the old effective requirement. The problem is that that standard is generaly considered to have become defunct prior to the founding of israel.

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Its not a tactic of war if one is already in a state of war. Both you and I know the difficulties in applying international rules of engagement and war in general when dealing with asymmetrical warfare, so I would appreciate that we stop drawing parallels between warring countries like WWII era Britain and Germany and that of Hamas/PLO and Israel.
WW2 isn't relivant. We know the both sides broke the relivant laws there. Thats why Dönitz got off fairly lightly.


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How does it miss the point? The UN itself states that ch VII art 41 is their call based on a vote. Judging by their past abilities to enforce the brunt of their initiatives worldwide, the lateness, and once they receive a charter to act on any conflict, I completely think its relevant since its the international body in the world that is looked upon for clearance and its ability to act in areas of armed conflict and humanitarian functions.

Point out where this is not de jure according to international maritime law regarding a state of armed conflict between two (or more) parties.
Where the UN hasn't oked it. You are argueing that it is that it is de facto legal.
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:55 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Captain.Sassy View Post
That's the question. While I'm no fan of reported IDF conduct in the past, you could make the case that firing live ammunition if you were being beaten with sticks and bars could be a legitimate use of force. What might be important here is whether they continued shooting after the protesters had stopped the attack or not, and if they did anything to precipitate the mob attack (other than landing on the boat).

Of course whatever the case the optics of this whole thing are piss-poor. For both sides, mind you.
Cell phones on one side, typical night vision at at a distance on the other - much like the footage from Iran where the news guys got plastered. Friendly advice, if you are in territory where terrorists might be, do not carry anything that can be interpreted on limited optical systems as any known kind of weapon. To do otherwise is either very stupid, suicidal or looking for trouble.

Also, remember what you see as stopped attack does not meaN - UNLESS YOU HAVE A VERY CLEAR VIEW OF ALL THE AREA THAT COULD BE INVOLVED - the attack is actually stopped. (Sorry about the all caps. but my little finge, left hand is numb and I can't always spot when I have hit caps instead of Aa).
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Old 31st May 2010, 02:17 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Only shaky, chopped up Turkish footage and 1 camera angle of soldiers on the back deck is used. Oh, and I love the reporting of the x amount of activist camera crew used. Take into account the IDF footage, its pretty straightforward.
If an attack is broadcast live over the internet by your enemies, that does not really sound like you are in very good control of the battlespace.
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Point out where this crying and moaning is happening. Perhaps you can try another angle here.
My other 'angle' would be that I expect Israel to be more cool and professional.

Commandos getting overpowered, having their weapons taken, thrown overboard sounds like Israel did not really understand their enemy, underestimated them, made critical mistakes, are embarrassed before the world, and further inflamed a region that really does not need any more.

Despite that... Israel never wrong. Ever. Anything at all. Period.

Got that.

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Defend themselves against what? Is this a failed attempt comparing the IDF that boarded to Somali pirates?
Touch a nerve there did I? By tomorrow morning I'll be surprised if there are not political cartoons morphing the Israel flag into a pirate flag. But so what? Clearly Israel as a national entity does not care what anyone thinks.
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Paintball guns were used initially, when firearms were used by these activists, as there were a number of firearms confiscated, the gloves are off.
I completely understand the soldier's right to defend themselves. I am actually sympathetic. They brought paintball guns to a knife fight.
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Boarding a ship does not justify such brutality on part of these so called activists. And there is a blockade.
Sorry what? They hate you. THEY HATE YOU. Yes even extending to the peace activists. Sheesh doesn't Israel get it? and this will make more hate.
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The first flotilla did not have these savages on them. So a failed comparison?
Violence escalates? Should be an old lesson by now for both Israel and Palestinians.
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Any other half-baked statements/assertions to shovel through?
Israel is better than this.
Her people are capable of greater deeds.
Her military is more competent.
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Old 31st May 2010, 02:20 PM   #192
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Wait, so they used too much force AND are embarrassed because they didn't use enough force?
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Old 31st May 2010, 03:12 PM   #193
JihadJane
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Wait, so they used too much force AND are embarrassed because they didn't use enough force?
No, these elite commandos cocked it up.

Originally Posted by Leif Roar View Post
I ensure you, Skeptic's pedigree is completely irrelevant to anything I post anywhere.
Ooops!
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Last edited by JihadJane; 31st May 2010 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 31st May 2010, 03:13 PM   #194
Bill Thompson
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
Priorities must be kept. Dead Jews = Hamas' #1 priority.
I agree.

I do not buy the idea that they are innocent civilians on this boat. Hammas wants to kill Israel for religious reasons. Anyone who aides Palestine can expect war.
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Old 31st May 2010, 03:18 PM   #195
JihadJane
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Originally Posted by Bill Thompson View Post
I agree.

I do not buy the idea that they are innocent civilians on this boat. Hammas wants to kill Israel for religious reasons. Anyone who aides Palestine can expect war.
I'm not sure what you mean by "kill Israel" but the grievances of which Hamas is an expression are certainly not religious ones.
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Last edited by JihadJane; 31st May 2010 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 31st May 2010, 03:47 PM   #196
Bill Thompson
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by "kill Israel" but the grievances of which Hamas is an expression are certainly not religious ones.
As a child, my grandfather came to the US and worked alongside his brother for a few years. His brother returned to Europe after he made some money. My grandfather stayed in the USA because he knew he could provide a better life for his kids. This was sensible. This was logical. This made more sense than returning to a sacred land. What is more, he made this decision before he had kids, before he was married, and before he even found a woman to marry.

Islam teaches to love the land more than the welfare of your kids. Palestinians teach their kids this. They fight Israel for religious reasons. If there was no Islam, there would be no "Palestine".

If there somehow had been a kind of Islamic teachings among Native Americans, the Cherokee would be terrorising the US government and demanding to return to Georgia and reclaim the land that the US government had taken from them. But there is no such a relgion and so this does not happen.

It is all about religion. If believe it is not. I think you have been duped.

Israel had warned this "aid" ship. And yet they walked right into the conflect. Why do you think they did?

Things in this world are not as they appear on the surface. I think the Muslim Aid Group had expected and orchestrated this theatre to generate sympathy. It is how they roll. They have done this countless times in the past. To me this is just like when they would fire rockets into Israel from a school or hospital whilst counting on return fire to kill children and the elderly.

If they generate sympathy within us, they have used their immorality and our short-sightedness to claim a victory.
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Old 31st May 2010, 03:57 PM   #197
JihadJane
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Originally Posted by Bill Thompson View Post
As a child, my grandfather came to the US and worked alongside his brother for a few years. His brother returned to Europe after he made some money. My grandfather stayed in the USA because he knew he could provide a better life for his kids. This was sensible. This was logical. This made more sense than returning to a sacred land. What is more, he made this decision before he had kids, before he was married, and before he even found a woman to marry.

Islam teaches to love the land more than the welfare of your kids. Palestinians teach their kids this. They fight Israel for religious reasons. If there was no Islam, there would be no "Palestine".

If there somehow had been a kind of Islamic teachings among Native Americans, the Cherokee would be terrorising the US government and demanding to return to Georgia and reclaim the land that the US government had taken from them. But there is no such a relgion and so this does not happen.

It is all about religion. If believe it is not. I think you have been duped.

Israel had warned this "aid" ship. And yet they walked right into the conflect. Why do you think they did?

Things in this world are not as they appear on the surface. I think the Muslim Aid Group had expected and orchestrated this theatre to generate sympathy. It is how they roll. They have done this countless times in the past. To me this is just like when they would fire rockets into Israel from a school or hospital whilst counting on return fire to kill children and the elderly.

If they generate sympathy within us, they have used their immorality and our short-sightedness to claim a victory.
Where is your argument that it is "all about religion"?

Your posts consists entirely of unsupported assertions juxtaposed with red herrings and non-sequiturs.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:01 PM   #198
Stout
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I'm still waiting for this video freegaza claims to have that shows IDF soldiers shooting at sleeping people.

Quote:
(Cyprus, June 1, 2010, 6:30 am) Under darkness of night, Israeli commandoes dropped from a helicopter onto the Turkish passenger ship, Mavi Marmara, and began to shoot the moment their feet hit the deck. They fired directly into the crowd of civilians asleep. According to the live video from the ship, two have been killed, and 31 injured. Al Jazeera has just confirmed the numbers
Link here...

Also

What's up with this fluctuating body count ? Is this just a miscommunication issue ? This morning it was more than 20, now we seem to be down to nine.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:08 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
I just want to point out that trying to violate a naval blockade is an act of war against the country imposing the blockade, and calling it "humanitarian" (well, apart from the "kill the Jews" chants, etc., etc., etc.) doesn't get one off the hook.
Walling up and blockading a bunch of innocent civillians; preventing them from having any real liberty could be considered an act of war too. Please don't act like you are so well versed in the centuries of cultural affairs between these two groups of people that you can even begin to make some proclamation about who is guilty and who isn't here.

Quote:
Things in this world are not as they appear on the surface. I think the Muslim Aid Group had expected and orchestrated this theatre to generate sympathy. It is how they roll. They have done this countless times in the past. To me this is just like when they would fire rockets into Israel from a school or hospital whilst counting on return fire to kill children and the elderly.
Right. It had nothing to do with the egregious human rights violations that are being commited in the west bank. Nothing at all.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:14 PM   #200
WildCat
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
I am not using the GC, you seem to have brought thi into it. Is it collective punishment or not? It was definitions you wanted to talk about.
No, it's not collective punishment.

Quote:
The wall and the blockades are collective punishment. Am I dishonest for saying that?
Quite.

Quote:
Well it is you that seems to use it more than anyone else here. Your definition seems to be different to mine.
Feel free to quote any precedence for your meaning in the context of human rights.
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