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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 18th February 2011, 07:46 AM   #81
bikerdruid
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Your argument is just too stupid to respond to. I can feel brain cell committing suicide just by thinking of plumbing the depths of stupidity I'd need to respond to it. So I will spare them by placing you on ignore for a while.
translation:
"..damn i hate it when i am proven wrong. how dare you question anything to do with israel. those poor people can do anything they want to the muslimn animals, because ......well, because they are israel and they can do no wrong.
i'm putting you on ignore out of embarrassment. i hope you feel severely chastized."
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Old 18th February 2011, 07:51 AM   #82
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funny how Mycroft has put me on ignore, not due to MY argument but due to reports in Ha'aretz.

I guess some facts just really burn some folks to the bone huh?
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Old 18th February 2011, 10:56 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
Who's to say there is a solution? Palestine won some autonomy and has been run by racketeers and crooks ever since. Those crooks are doing well. All they have to do is provide a little ideological cover for their racketeering and keep the pot boiling over just enough to keep the foreign aid bonanza coming in. The only thing they need worry about is boiling things over too much and provoking an Israeli smackdown. Hamas made that mistake in 2006.

So what's the solution to that? There isn't one.
A smarter monkeyworld?

Hey, it could happen. According to the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics, everything that has a non-zero probability exists in some universe.

But almost certainly not in this one, unfortunately.

Hmm. We could make it a quantum decision. Either the monkeyworld wises up, or it faces nuclear anihilation. The monkeyworld will almost certainly NOT wise up, but in a tiny meaure of Everett-worlds, the monkeyworld WILL wise up. According to quantum suicide theory, our conscious selves will find ourselves in one of the tiny minority of wised-up monkeyworlds, precisely because all our counterparts in all other monkeyworlds will have been anihilated.

I'm afraid that may be monkeyworld's only remaining hope, forlorn though it may be.

Last edited by Toontown; 18th February 2011 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 18th February 2011, 11:27 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...to-go-1.343448

Thanks God I live in a country that respects common-sense seperation between Church & State.
The people who live in this community are Israeli taxpayers. It has been deemed that in their community, there is enough change in the traffic patterns on the jewish sabbath to warrant the construction of a new road.

There is no church/state hanky-panky here. Just a government doing what it's supposed to do for the people its supposed to be serving.

And oh yeah, some trees got killed... whoop-de-frakkin-doo.

EDIT: FULL DISCLOSURE: I will be driving to church this Sunday on a road paved by taxpayer dollars.

Last edited by Sword_Of_Truth; 18th February 2011 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 07:26 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
The people who live in this community are Israeli taxpayers. It has been deemed that in their community, there is enough change in the traffic patterns on the jewish sabbath to warrant the construction of a new road.
But according to a document by Israel Antabi, the municipality's deputy director general and head of engineering and projects, the trees were removed not because of plans to create a four-lane road. The plan is to pave a street for Cohanim - Jews who, according to custom, face certain restrictions such as avoiding graveyards.

According to the document, "Tiberias is an ancient city more than 2,000 years old .... In Tiberias there are cemeteries that cover most of the area around the old city. So Cohanim do not use the roads in the center of Tiberias. The Israeli government decided to fund a project for making halakhic roads that would enable the passage of Cohanim."

"halakic roads" & "pave a street for Cohanim"

sounds like a major violation of the seperation of Church & State.

FAIL
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Old 19th February 2011, 11:08 AM   #86
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Palestinians plan "Day of Rage" to protest America's UN veto

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...ution-1.344425

Palestinians are planning their own "Day of Rage" to protest the American veto on a United Nations resolution condemning Israeli settlements, Ma'an News Agency reported a top Fatah official as saying on Saturday.

"They are liars who pretend to support democracy and peace. Far from it," Fatah official and former Palestinian intelligence chief Tawfik Tirawi, referring to the U.S., told the news agency.


..I support such protests as long as they stay peaceful.
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Old 19th February 2011, 11:17 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by bikerdruid View Post
mycroft...thunder is a jew.
If true, irrelevant.

On the internet anyone can claim to be whatever they want and more than one person has thought of claiming to be something they're not in order to lend extra credibility to what they say. But, for the sake of argument, if we assume Parky is as Jewish as he claims, that doesn't make him any more knowledgeable about Israel.

But the fact is that he derides Jewish customs and practices. That he claims to be Jewish doesn't make that any less inappropriate or noteworthy.

Originally Posted by bikerdruid View Post
he is a jew who opposes israel's abominable domestic and foreign policies.
I disagree that losing a few trees to build a road is an abominable policy. I think it's a very good policy that is just like the road-building policies of any other nation on Earth.

I also disagree that it's bad policy to make the road conform to the religious sensitivities of the people who will use it. If there were evidence Israel would not show the same consideration to the sensitivities of people from different religions, then there might be something to discuss, but no evidence has been offered.

Last edited by Mycroft; 19th February 2011 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 11:24 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
But the fact is that he derides Jewish customs and practices.
I know of no Cohain Jews who follow the silly practise of not going to cemetaries.

And as a Jew, I have every right to deride those customs of Judaism that I find silly & stupid.

Just as I gave the right to compliment customs, such as the ritual hand-washing before eating, as very common sense and probably highly advantageous during times of disease.
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Old 19th February 2011, 11:30 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by bikerdruid View Post
translation:
"..damn i hate it when i am proven wrong. how dare you question anything to do with israel. those poor people can do anything they want to the muslimn animals, because ......well, because they are israel and they can do no wrong.
i'm putting you on ignore out of embarrassment. i hope you feel severely chastized."
Do you think those links prove an Israeli conspiracy to turn Mosques into warehouses?

I don't.

The very first article makes a comparison with Synagogues from Gush Katif that were destroyed by Palestinians after the Jewish residents abandoned them. Is that evidence of a Palestinian conspiracy to destroy Synagogues? Of course not, that would be stupid. But the exact same logic is presented to manufacture a grievance against Israel.
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Old 19th February 2011, 11:33 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Do you think those links prove an Israeli conspiracy to turn Mosques into warehouses?

conspiracy? what conspiracy?

the two Haaretz articles show such things did indeed happen. its no longer a CT if it turns out to be true.

Israel did indeed destroy many Mosques after 1948 and abused/misused many more.

the deniers can deny all they like.




http://www.haaretz.com/news/a-mosque...-here-1.169947

The club was closed in the mid-1980s. For a few years, the former mosque became a stable. The steel doors at the entrance to the prayer hall and the dry horse droppings on the floor testify to this not-so-distant past. Today the building is deserted.

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magaz...rased-1.224899

This was not the only Muslim holy place destroyed after Israel's War of Independence. According to a book by Dr. Meron Benvenisti, of the 160 mosques in the Palestinian villages incorporated into Israel under the armistice agreements, fewer than 40 are still standing.

Last edited by Thunder; 19th February 2011 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:09 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I disagree that losing a few trees to build a road is an abominable policy.
even if those trees are some of the oldest olive trees in the world?
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:16 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by bikerdruid View Post
even if those trees are some of the oldest olive trees in the world?
At 70 years? Can't possibly be true.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:19 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by bikerdruid View Post
even if those trees are some of the oldest olive trees in the world?
How far do you want to move those goalposts? The trees under discussion are eucalyptus trees and were stated to be about 70 years old. Which is pretty young for trees.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:28 PM   #94
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But for the sake of argument, let's say they were centuries old olive trees.

Olive trees normally have an expected life span of 500 years, but they can live to be thousands of years old. It's expected that in a region that has produced olives for thousands of years that there would be a lot of ancient olive trees. .

Certainly there is value to preserving ancient trees, but how much value? That would depend on how many of these ancient trees there were, what was accomplished by the projects that removed them, and the needs of the community. These are competing needs that need to be balanced against each other. Such balancing can only be accomplished at a local level, by local government. It's just not an issue for international debate.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:28 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
"halakic roads" & "pave a street for Cohanim"

sounds like a major violation of the seperation of Church & State.
Not even remotely close. Paving a road is paving a road. They aren't building a church or formally pledging the states support to that church.

Taxpayers pay taxes, the state builds roads. The Cohanim aren't doing anything wrong by asking that the state do it's job and build roads where traffic is expected to go. That a significant percentage of the population will use that road to go to church is none of the states business... or yours.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:32 PM   #96
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The plan is to pave a street for Cohanim - Jews who, according to custom, face certain restrictions such as avoiding graveyards.

The Israeli government decided to fund a project for making halakhic roads that would enable the passage of Cohanim.


for the reading impaired.

Israel is spending tax-payer funds to please the religious needs of very religious Jews. This road expansion and new sidewalk has NO secular basis whatsoever.

But just like Iran and Afghanistan are Islamic states, Israel is a Jewish state...which makes this all kosher, I guess.

Last edited by Thunder; 19th February 2011 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:36 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
That a significant percentage of the population will use that road to go to church is none of the states business... or yours.
if its none of the state's business, then WHY are they building it?

if the new sidewalk is none of the state's business, then WHY are they building it?

keep digging, SOT.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:45 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
if its none of the state's business, then WHY are they building it?
Because taxpaying citizens want it.

Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
if the new sidewalk is none of the state's business, then WHY are they building it?
Because taxpaying citizens want it.

You're pissed because the taxpaying citizens in this case are using it to go to church. You're proving nothing but your own religious bigotry.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:49 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
Because taxpaying citizens want it.

Because taxpaying citizens want it.
municipalities don't just build new roads and sidewalks because people want it. they build them if they are neccessary. capital funds don't grow on trees, you know...and they don't get used simply because of a public desire.

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
You're pissed because the taxpaying citizens in this case are using it to go to church. You're proving nothing but your own religious bigotry.
why can't the tax-payers use the existing sidewalk to go to Church? its not good enough for them?

oh, right, its near a cemetary. sucks to be you. why should Muslim, Christian, Ba'Hai, and secular Jewish taxpayer funds be used to build a road SIMPLY for the purpose of satisfying the cockamayme needs of ultra-Orthodox Jews?

will the state go the same lengths to please the religious needs of very religious Muslims? no, cause Israel is a Jewish state....NOT a Muslim state.

Last edited by Thunder; 19th February 2011 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:49 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
Israel is spending tax-payer funds to please the religious transportation needs of very religious tax paying citizens Jews.
Corrected free of charge.
Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
This road expansion and new sidewalk has NO secular basis whatsoever.
Lies.

The pourpose of the road is to get taxpayers and their families from point A to point B. You hate it because point B happens to be a church. That's just plain old bigotry.

Congratulations, you've become what you've beheld.

Last edited by Sword_Of_Truth; 19th February 2011 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:57 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
municipalities don't just build new roads and sidewalks because people want it.
Yes, they do.

Quote:
they build them if they are neccessary.
The taxpayers have made this determination.

Quote:
capital funds don't grow on trees, you know
No, they don't.

Quote:
...and they don't get used simply because of a public desire.
Yes they do. Ever heard a politician campaigning? "Vote for me and I'll build this thing you want".


Quote:
why can't the tax-payers use the existing sidewalk to go to Church?
They don't want to. They pay taxes, they want a new road. It's the states job to build the road if the political will and finances are there.

Quote:
oh, right, its near a cemetary. sucks to be you.
Sucks even worse to be you. I'm not the one throwing a forum tantrum over a road getting built. I don't care and the Cohanim are getting their road. You're the only one who is unhappy with the situation.

Last edited by Sword_Of_Truth; 19th February 2011 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:59 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
Lies.

The purpose of the road is to get taxpayers and their families from point A to point B. You hate it because point B happens to be a church. That's just plain old bigotry.

Congratulations, you've become what you've beheld.
and I quote:

But according to a document by Israel Antabi, the municipality's deputy director general and head of engineering and projects, the trees were removed not because of plans to create a four-lane road. The plan is to pave a street for Cohanim - Jews who, according to custom, face certain restrictions such as avoiding graveyards.

According to the document, "Tiberias is an ancient city more than 2,000 years old .... In Tiberias there are cemeteries that cover most of the area around the old city. So Cohanim do not use the roads in the center of Tiberias. The Israeli government decided to fund a project for making halakhic roads that would enable the passage of Cohanim."

there are already existing roads that the Cohanim could use. but the Cohanim don't like these roads, cause God says they are bad. so, to please the Cohanim's superstition's, the State of Israel is using taxpayer dollars to build another road, simply to comply with the religious requirements of very religious Jews.

again, roads already exist that could be used by the Cohanim, but they make the conscious choice to NOT use them. why should possibly millions in tax-payer dollars be used for such a purpose...especially when perfectly good roads already exist??? this is a clear violation of the seperation of Church & State, which clearly does NOT exist in the Jewish State.


....and SOT is defending this clear violation of the seperation of Church & State.
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Old 19th February 2011, 01:01 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
Sucks even worse to be you.
#1. I was not referring to "YOU". I was referring to the Cohanim.

#2. You got some nerve & some hypocrisy, accusing me of lieing.

#3. your accusing me of bigotry simply because I disagree with you, is pathetic. you gonna call me a traitor next?



no country that honors and values the seperation of Church & State, builds "halakhic roads".

and no, roads don't just get built just because some special-interest group wants it. at least not in a secular democratic state.

Last edited by Thunder; 19th February 2011 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 01:10 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
Sucks even worse to be you. I'm not the one throwing a forum tantrum over a road getting built. I don't care and the Cohanim are getting their road. You're the only one who is unhappy with the situation.
Further, there is nothing that says the road is only for the Cohanim, only that their needs were taken into consideration when planning its route. Even if there were no Cohanim it's realistic to assume the road would have been built anyway, and we don't even have enough information to determine if these trees would have been spared.

It really is a text-book example of a manufactured grievance.
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Old 19th February 2011, 01:12 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Even if there were no Cohanim it's realistic to assume the road would have been built anyway, and we don't even have enough information to determine if these trees would have been spared.
another baseless claim.

surprise....surprise.

oh, and btw, I love trees, am a certified Arborist, spent 4 years of my life planting trees, and think Eucalyptus trees hold a special place in tree heaven. that's the other reason why I made this thread.

Last edited by Thunder; 19th February 2011 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 01:18 PM   #106
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Whatever the reason, the loss of the trees is a tough one for many residents. David Amar, who owns a camping-gear shop on Hayarden Street, also says the eucalyptus trees were part of his childhood. He finds the uprooting of trees to pave a street for Cohanim strange.
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Old 19th February 2011, 01:29 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
#1. I was not referring to "YOU". I was referring to the Cohanim.
And yet it doesn't suck to be them. They got their road.

Quote:
#2. You got some nerve & some hypocrisy, accusing me of lieing.
It increasingly appears that it's all you ever do.

Quote:
#3. your accusing me of bigotry simply because I disagree with you
You sole objection to this road appears to be that the Cohanim will use it. That's religious bigotry.

Quote:
no country that honors and values the seperation of Church & State, builds "halakhic roads".
The road itself is not halakhic. It follows a route which facilitates halakhic rituals. The road itself is just concrete and asphalt.

Quote:
and no, roads don't just get built just because some special-interest group wants it.
Oh jeebus... this is perhaps the most staggeringly ignorant thing ever said outside the CT and paranormal forums.

If I had a dollar for every road and public facility in the western world that got built at the behest of a "special interest group", I'd never use roads because I'd own my own frickin helicopter.
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Old 19th February 2011, 01:29 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
Whatever the reason, the loss of the trees is a tough one for many residents. David Amar, who owns a camping-gear shop on Hayarden Street, also says the eucalyptus trees were part of his childhood. He finds the uprooting of trees to pave a street for Cohanim strange.
the loss of trees is a tough one for any thinking person.
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Old 19th February 2011, 01:37 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by bikerdruid View Post
the loss of trees is a tough one for any thinking person.
Cue the violins...
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


First you were pissed that the jews in Israel were planting trees. Now you're honked off that the jews in Israel are cutting down trees. Is it just a coinky-dink that you're a 9/11 truther and that both of these contradictory positions cut against the jews in Israel?
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Old 19th February 2011, 01:44 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
Cue the violins...
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


First you were pissed that the jews in Israel were planting trees. Now you're honked off that the jews in Israel are cutting down trees. Is it just a coinky-dink that you're a 9/11 truther and that both of these contradictory positions cut against the jews in Israel?
i was not 'honked off' about the planting of the trees.
i was 'honked off' that they were demolishing palestinian homes to do so.

but you knew that....
btw...i can't watch your video, but you knew that too...

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Old 19th February 2011, 01:49 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by bikerdruid View Post
the loss of trees is a tough one for any thinking person.
Why is the loss of these trees tragic?

As far as I can tell, they're not even native.

Last edited by Mycroft; 19th February 2011 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 02:00 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Why is the loss of these trees tragic?

As far as I can tell, they're not even native.
I lost my peach tree last year because I got careless with the weedwacker.

That was tragic.
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Old 19th February 2011, 02:01 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Why is the loss of these trees tragic?
...trees are the lungs of the earth....
.........and our neighbours.
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Old 19th February 2011, 02:10 PM   #114
Sword_Of_Truth
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Why is the loss of these trees tragic?

As far as I can tell, they're not even native.
Actually, the killing of the trees was an act of legitimate self defense by Israel.

Captured Hamas documents
indicate the trees were spying for the terrorists and relaying targeting information about personnel movements.

Last edited by Sword_Of_Truth; 19th February 2011 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 02:12 PM   #115
Sword_Of_Truth
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Originally Posted by bikerdruid View Post
...trees are the lungs of the earth....
.........and our neighbours.
And the paper products I wipe my ass with.
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Old 19th February 2011, 02:15 PM   #116
bikerdruid
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
Actually, the killing of the trees was an act of legitimate self defense by Israel.

Captured Hamas documents
indicate the trees were spying for the terrorists and relaying targeting information about personnel movements.
Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
And the paper products I wipe my ass with.
your 'humour' is only out compassed by your callousness.
(your lack of humanity is showing.)
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Old 19th February 2011, 02:39 PM   #117
Thunder
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
It increasingly appears that it's all you ever do..
on the contrary, posting opinions that you do not agree with, is not lieing, SOT.

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
You sole objection to this road appears to be that the Cohanim will use it. That's religious bigotry.
on the contrary, I have two objections to this road:

1. it was built purely due to the religious needs of very religious Cohanim. There is no evidence there was any general transportation need for the new road.

2. very old and lovely trees were killed to build these unneccessary, special-interest roads.

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
The road itself is not halakhic. It follows a route which facilitates halakhic rituals. The road itself is just concrete and asphalt.
take that up with Israel Antabi, the municipality's deputy director general and head of engineering and projects, who himself called them "halakhic roads".

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
If I had a dollar for every road and public facility in the western world that got built at the behest of a "special interest group", I'd never use roads because I'd own my own frickin helicopter.
I do not doubt that various interest groups within the USA and other Western nations often influence the placement of Stop Signs, bike-lanes, red-light cameras, etc etc. My issue is when such elements are put into place simply due to religious needs, and not some general transporation factor. Capital funds, in a secular democracy, should not be used to simply provide for the needs of religious communities.

...and publicly-owned trees should not be cut down for religous perposes either. those trees belong to all the citizens of Israel.

Last edited by Thunder; 19th February 2011 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 19th February 2011, 02:56 PM   #118
WildCat
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Originally Posted by bikerdruid View Post
your 'humour' is only out compassed by your callousness.
(your lack of humanity is showing.)
Corn cobs for you, eh?
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Vive la liberté!
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Old 19th February 2011, 02:57 PM   #119
Thunder
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
And the paper products I wipe my ass with.
huh
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Old 19th February 2011, 03:18 PM   #120
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by bikerdruid View Post
...trees are the lungs of the earth....
.........and our neighbours.
Are you serious?

I personally think that argument is so kooky it's gotta be a parody of the loony-leftist point of view, but on the chance you mean it sincerely, then you should be an ardent Zionist. They have a fetish about planting trees in Israel, either going there to do it personally or paying to have it done.

http://www.treesfortheholyland.com/index.html

http://treestoisrael.org/

http://www.jnf.org/work-we-do/our-pr...estry-ecology/

Millions of trees. Lots of new sylvan friends and neighbors for you to love, and precious lungs for our planet earth.
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