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#161 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 8,073
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It's not like it's illegal to go on holiday, for goodness' sake!
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#162 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: London
Posts: 309
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#164 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 23,292
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Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
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#165 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 23,292
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In my, entirely subjective opinion: Let her make her way to proper authorities. Repatriate her, and let her face whatever appropriate legal action. After alll thus us one important difference between UK and ISIS.
Hans |
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Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
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#166 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,075
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They do get a choice ... that's what I just explained in the actual post that you quoted from me. Nor are people (or the government) in the UK just “out for retribution” as I think you said in post #141. The UK is actually a very tolerant and compassionate country, even in cases of Islamic fundamentalism and despite atrocities here such as the London Tube Bombings. People here are not generally seeking revenge or victimisation for individuals like Shamima Begum. It's a question of what sort of risk or danger she might pose to the general public. Because if you read her article then she is clearly still supporting the aims and methods of IS (I pointed that out with her quotes earlier in the thread). She is not, for example, claiming that she was mislead, tricked, or even that she was “groomed” as someone described it in a previous post. She simply appears to be amongst several thousand British Muslims who, to differing extents, support a violent form of Jihad against anyone who in their opinion tries to suppress or oppose Islam and what they believe is God's command to establish societies with hard-line religious rule from the Koran … she is, like all the others, heavily committed to that view (it's a very deeply held religious belief … and that's a very difficult thing ever to change). |
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#167 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,856
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I ask (not you personally) again: What is the alternative to taking your citizens back? The Syrian army/state has a habit of killing foreign Jihadis on their soil simply out of practical reasons because there have been huge numbers of them. You get a trial only as Syrian citizen. Do you want the US to send them to Guantanamo? The Kurds are neither a state actor nor do they have the resources to care/put to justice the many hundred ISIS foreigners they hold. There's no caliphate to send them back to. So what now (same goes for my country Germany btw)? |
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#168 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
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It's also about what kind of example it sets, if a well-known individual is permitted to indulge in terrorist activities then return to this country and be welcomed with open arms (and before you say that's hyperbole, that's what certain commentators are pushing for). OK, maybe she doesn't commit an act of terrorism when she returns, and maybe she doesn't encourage anybody else to do the same (leaving aside the £18m per year bill for her monitoring) but maybe the tens? hundreds? thousands? emboldened by her treatment will.
Not taking them back. You don't have to strip a person of their citizenship to not allow them access to the country. What happens to her then, you ask? Who cares? At best she'll be imprisoned or killed abroad; at worst, she'll go live in an Islamic country more accepting of her views. |
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#169 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,075
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In the end the UK may indeed have to accept her back. Although as I explained in post #129, they can apparently delay her return for some years, or else argue a legal case to possibly avoid that obligation altogether. On your question of "what is the alternative to taking your citizens back?"; if the UK government really does not want her back under any circumstances, then I can only guess that they will say that she made her choice, that she is unrepentant and still supporting IS, and that she knew perfectly well what she was doing, and that she will now have to stick with the decision she made. Just for info., see also yesterdays BBC article on this point of law - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47248555 And also this slightly more in-depth commentary from the Guardian newspaper - https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...n-isis-recruit |
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#170 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 8,437
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If this silly woman is so wrapped up in the potential safety of her child, let it be born in Syria, or wherever she is now. She can then give it up to be sent to the UK to be adopted out to another willing and capable family. There are mechanisms in place to do this already.
Meanwhile, the silly woman can take her chances with the people she has fallen in with and the predicament she finds herself in. As we are told frequently when we travel overseas, your passport and citizenship are not a free pass to break the law or be rescued in any other country. You must be aware of and follow their laws and customs when you are there. To "help her along", the UK could accidentally cancel her passport. She would then need to go to the nearest UK consulate (good luck with that), explain that her passport seems to be cancelled (good luck with that), and ask for a new one to be issued...in the next ten years (good luck with that). |
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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#171 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,856
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I'm not surprised about such a response coming from you, it's just not good enough for people who care about not sinking as low as "the enemy". I see two alternatives. 1) Putin sends some White Swans who fly those people straight back to London and Berlin etc and drop them there (with parachutes). 2) The main culprit in brainwashing these people with programs worth many billions in the first place, Saudi Arabia, orders Bin Laden company to build a giant wall somewhere in the Saudi desert, maybe near enough to Mecca and Medina so they can see it when they blow up themselves, and create a "Violence Experience Park" inside for all those who feel the urge to live in some 8th century Mad Max scenario. We can drop what's inside Idlib province there as well and on request everybody else gets a one-way ticket with basic (8th century) food and shelter provided. Actually the latter is the only "serious" alternative I see. |
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#172 |
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#173 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,075
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For what it's worth, I think we (the UK) probably should take her back (and do it without further delay). Then when she gets here she will no doubt be questioned at considerable length, and on the basis of that she would (under the circumstances, which are quite extreme in her case), probably have to stand trial on various terrorism charges. But I'm not sure a lengthy prison term would help at all either. I think the best option would probably be to attempt to educate her away from the beliefs she has about Islam and the way that has lead her into supporting IS with all of the attrocities that involves. How successful that might be is anyones guess (and unfortuantely a mistaken guess could prove lethal). |
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#174 |
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#175 |
Lackey
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#176 |
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#177 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,182
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FIFY.
Blame has to be fairly and squarely on the rabid fundamentalist hate preachers behind this 'come join the Caliphate' nonsense. Secondly, there might come a point where extremist fundamentalist terrorists become so commonplace in Europe, there'll be no choice but to ban Islam. |
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#178 |
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#179 |
Lackey
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#180 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! |
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#181 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#182 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! |
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#183 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,666
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"I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044 |
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#184 |
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#185 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,666
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"I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044 |
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#186 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#187 |
Master Poster
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#188 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco, California Republic
Posts: 833
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I understand that, and I also understand that her chances of getting to the UK are slim to nil and this is more of a pipe dream for her. I'm asking why the conversation is so centered around if she came home how she should be arrested or rehabilitated. Why not hand her over to Syria? It would seem to me that they of all people have proper jurisdiction here, no matter what we think of their criminal justice system.
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#189 |
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#190 |
Muse
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#191 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
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#192 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,140
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The Kurds in control of the refugee camp want western countries to bring their IS members home, so in the not too distant future she's likely to be dumped over the border into Turkey and deported from there to Britain.
I'd revoke her citizenship and let the Bangladeshis have her, personally. |
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#193 |
Muse
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#194 |
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#195 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#196 |
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#197 |
Lackey
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#198 |
Lackey
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#199 |
Lackey
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#200 |
Penultimate Amazing
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