ISIS teenager wants to come home

[epeeist]

Originally Posted by Darat

Not seeing where this is a failure of the child protection services?

I meant as a general description of failure of authorities generally, not a specific office.

Teenagers were allowed to fly to Turkey, leaving from the UK. That strikes me as a failure of the government.

Of course they also fail, far more commonly sadly, to prevent female genital mutilation both in the UK and with trips abroad from the UK (I think I read recently that the first case, ever, in the UK has just been brought - despite thousands of victims annually).

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by baron

There's no difference, they are the same thing. That's assuming you're talking of 'fundamentalists' with respect to the dictionary definition as opposed to the leftist media hijacking of the word to mean 'terrorists' because they're too **** scared to say the word outright.



There is no dividing line. There's a spectrum of belief that starts with nominal association and progresses to fundamentalism (incorporating religious, cultural and political Islam) with the majority of UK Muslims being grouped towards the latter end. Active terrorism is another matter and a terrorist can emerge anywhere on that line although they tend to be more towards the fundamentalist end.



You're looking at it the wrong way. There is no critical mass of belief that turns a Muslim into a terrorist, fundamentalist belief just increases their likelihood of becoming a terrorist and also their predilection to terrorist sympathy.



I'm guessing here, but if it were easily evidenced I'd place a bet that I know more about Islam than Shamima Begum. Like a number of young Western ISIS recruits she's simply a degenerate human being, groomed by her terrorist-supporting father to hate the West, wound up and left to do her worst on the basis that anything non-Islamic is evil and must be destroyed.

This, of course, does not apply to ISIS themselves, who are scholars of Islam and ensure that every one of their actions can be supported with direct reference to scripture.

But this is getting away from the point which you quoted which is yes, I believe anyone who accepts the fundamentals of Islam as fact is mentally deranged.

Not necessarily. Many are 'forced' into Islam, especially women.

They go along with it for a quiet life.

They are no more religious than any other section of society.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by epeeist

I'm not suggesting a rescue mission or anything like that, but if she were able to get to a safe place, she should be able to return, for at least two reasons:

1. She was 15 when she went there - most places don't consider 15-year-olds to be as fully responsible. That she was able to do what she did at 15 speaks poorly of the UK's child protective services generally (and from what little I've read, they're disgustingly poor at protecting children if doing so might involve interfering with proclaimed religious or cultural beliefs?).

2. She has a child who is or I assume has a claim to UK citizenship - if only for the child's sake, she should be allowed to return.

3. What happens when she returns, whether she is a fit mother or not, etc. are other considerations.

As the most hated woman in Britain right now, she'd likely be torn limb from limb.

[baron]

Stateless in 3.. 2... 1...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47299907

[baron]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Not necessarily. Many are 'forced' into Islam, especially women.

They go along with it for a quiet life.

They are no more religious than any other section of society.

If they're not religious then how can they be a fundamentalist?

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by baron

Stateless in 3.. 2... 1...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47299907

Would imagine that is exaggerated

The UK aren't stupid enough to try to do that

[Information Analyst]

Originally Posted by epeeist

Teenagers were allowed to fly to Turkey, leaving from the UK. That strikes me as a failure of the government.

She used her older sister's passport.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Vixen

As the most hated woman in Britain right now, she'd likely be torn limb from limb.

No she won't.

There might be the odd internet anger, but that is about it

[baron]

Originally Posted by cullennz

Would imagine that is exaggerated

The UK aren't stupid enough to try to do that

They're doing it right now. To all intents and purposes it's already done as they don't need to get approval from any external body. The only hope Begum's family have is to challenge it in court (at the taxpayers' expense, naturally).

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by baron

They're doing it right now. To all intents and purposes it's already done as they don't need to get approval from any external body. The only hope Begum's family have is to challenge it in court (at the taxpayers' expense, naturally).

If true it is a very very dumb thing to do.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by cullennz

If true it is a very very dumb thing to do.

May I ask why?

[baron]

Originally Posted by cullennz

If true it is a very very dumb thing to do.

I'll ask why too, although you need only answer once.

[Gilbert Syndrome]

All of this she was a teenager, they all do silly things idea I've seen floating about on the t'internet is a bit daft.

When you're a silly teen, you nick a tenner from your mum's purse and go out and buy some cheap cigarettes and Mad Dog 20/20, you don't run off to the badlands of the Middle-East and join a backwards terrorist organization.

Frankly, I'd rather see bubonic plague back on our streets than this little knobhead.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by epeeist

I'm not suggesting a rescue mission or anything like that, but if she were able to get to a safe place, she should be able to return, for at least two reasons:

1. She was 15 when she went there - most places don't consider 15-year-olds to be as fully responsible. That she was able to do what she did at 15 speaks poorly of the UK's child protective services generally (and from what little I've read, they're disgustingly poor at protecting children if doing so might involve interfering with proclaimed religious or cultural beliefs?).

2. She has a child who is or I assume has a claim to UK citizenship - if only for the child's sake, she should be allowed to return.

3. What happens when she returns, whether she is a fit mother or not, etc. are other considerations.

AFAIK child protection services in the UK are as good as anywhere in the world. That's not really been the problem with the youngest of UK Muslims that have got themselves into trouble with the law due to extremist Islamic activities.

The problem has been that they have either grown up in Muslim families where the parents &/or older brothers and sisters have expressed support for Islamist groups like IS and Al-Qaeda inc. vocal support even for the people who carried out attacks such as the 2005 London Tube Bombings (and where at the same time they were also being highly critical of the UK support for any military response in Islamic lands against people like Bin Laden and groups like IS). Or else, where the younger children were not getting that example from the parents and wider family, they were certainly getting it from the internet ... not just from deliberate mass propaganda sites created by groups like IS, but far more simply and more directly from other Muslim kids all across the UK who like to express a lot of bravado about how they would “behead all those who insult Islam” … that's a quote from placards held up by Muslims at a London street protest.

It's impossible for “child protection services” anywhere (in any country) to keep track, monitor, or even have any knowledge at all of what those kids are experiencing in situations like that at home or on the internet.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by cullennz

Would imagine that is exaggerated

The UK aren't stupid enough to try to do that

I've seen it argued that she'd be entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship by descent.

In which case, she would not be stateless.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Belz...

May I ask why?

The criteria now for making someone stateless,

Someone who is presumably groomed at 15, who was born in England and ran away to shag a ISIS dude, and they have no evidence of any other crimes.

No day in court, and presumably no possibility of appeal.

Lovely

Does this extend to kids groomed into getting caught up in sex slavery?

[baron]

Originally Posted by cullennz

The criteria now for making someone stateless,

Someone who is presumably groomed at 15, who was born in England and ran away to shag a ISIS dude, and they have no evidence of any other crimes.

Oh, I forgot, either I'm on your Ignore List or you're deliberately pretending I didn't list all the potential crimes and remind you of them three times. Either way it's a waste of time engaging with you, you won't be told.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by cullennz

The criteria now for making someone stateless,

Someone who is presumably groomed at 15, who was born in England and ran away to shag a ISIS dude, and they have no evidence of any other crimes.

No day in court, and presumably no possibility of appeal.

Lovely

Does this extend to kids groomed into getting caught up in sex slavery?

Sorry, how does this answer my question?

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Sorry, how does this answer my question?

I was just pointing out why it is dumb

That is a pitiful reason for a civilised country to make a person stateless

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by baron

Oh, I forgot, either I'm on your Ignore List or you're deliberately pretending I didn't list all the potential crimes and remind you of them three times. Either way it's a waste of time engaging with you, you won't be told.

I tried to find your post last time, but the thread has got a bit long.

Do you mind posting them again and all the evidence you have that she is guilty of them

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by cullennz

I was just pointing out why it is dumb

That is a pitiful reason for a civilised country to make a person stateless

Again: why? What should be the reasons for doing so? What are the current legal precedents for that?

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by cullennz

I was just pointing out why it is dumb

That is a pitiful reason for a civilised country to make a person stateless

Except:

Originally Posted by jimbob

I've seen it argued that she'd be entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship by descent.

In which case, she would not be stateless.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by jimbob

Except:

She is not Bangladeshi. She is English

[baron]

Originally Posted by cullennz

I tried to find your post last time, but the thread has got a bit long.

Do you mind posting them again and all the evidence you have that she is guilty of them

She can't be guilty because she hasn't had a trial, but if you read her history it's clear that evidence exists for some, most or possibly all of the following (and more):

Originally Posted by baron

There is whole raft of crimes she might be in breach of, including (paraphrased) supporting terrorism, inviting support for terrorism, funding terrorism, being a member of a proscribed organisation, distributing, displaying or promoting terrorist material, receiving or engaging in terrorist training, transmitting information likely to be useful in terrorist activity, failing to report terrorist activity or the suspicion of terrorist activity to the authorities and, depending on what she's done in Syria, direct involvement in terrorist acts. And that's just a few off the top of my head.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Again: why? What should be the reasons for doing so? What are the current legal precedents for that?

Well actually committing a real terrorist crime at an adult age would be a good start

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by cullennz

Well actually committing a real terrorist crime at an adult age would be a good start

Didn't she join a terrorist organisation and displays no remorse at all? There's only so much you can chalk up to teenage stupidity.

[Strawberry]

Originally Posted by cullennz

She is not Bangladeshi. She is English

She is a dual national with both Bangladeshi and British citizenship, which means the British can strip her of citizenship without making her stateless.

I said pages back this is what they should do, presumably Sajid Javid reads all my posts. You're welcome Mr Javid, now sign up to that backstop agreement for the Irish border while you're at it.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Didn't she join a terrorist organisation and displays no remorse at all? There's only so much you can chalk up to teenage stupidity.

At 15 yes

We have no idea what crap was drummed into her after this.

Personally think it is no different from any other idiot teenager getting caught up in a cult.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Strawberry

She is a dual national with both Bangladeshi and British citizenship, which means the British can strip her of citizenship without making her stateless.

I said pages back this is what they should do, presumably Sajid Javid reads all my posts. You're welcome Mr Javid, now sign up to that backstop agreement for the Irish border while you're at it.

From what I understand she would have to apply for Bangadeshi citizenship as she is sole Brit', born in London.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by cullennz

At 15 yes

Fifteen isn't a toddler anymore.

Quote:

We have no idea what crap was drummed into her after this.

We're all a product of our environment. That doesn't absolve us of responsibility.

Quote:

Personally think it is no different from any other idiot teenager getting caught up in a cult.

ISIS is not just a cult, though.

[Strawberry]

Originally Posted by cullennz

From what I understand she would have to apply for Bangadeshi citizenship as she is sole Brit', born in London.

Under the laws of Bangladesh she is a citizen of their country because her mother is Bangladeshi.

"Bangladeshi citizenship is provided primarily jus sanguinis, or through bloodline, irrespectively of the place or legitimacy of the birth.[2] Therefore, any person born to a Bangladeshi woman illegitimately outside Bangladeshi soil would still be a Bangladeshi citizen, whereas a person born to two non-nationals in Bangladesh would not. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangla...#Jus_Sanguinis

[IanS]

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome

All of this she was a teenager, they all do silly things idea I've seen floating about on the t'internet is a bit daft.

When you're a silly teen, you nick a tenner from your mum's purse and go out and buy some cheap cigarettes and Mad Dog 20/20, you don't run off to the badlands of the Middle-East and join a backwards terrorist organization.

Frankly, I'd rather see bubonic plague back on our streets than this little knobhead.

The action (travelling to Syria to join IS in the middle of a deadly war) seems extreme to us ("daft"). But it clearly does not seem at all "daft" to many young impressionable Muslims all across Europe (more have travelled from France and Germany than from the UK).

The reason why it does not seem to be extreme or crazy to them, is because they believe that God ("Allah") is very strongly on the side of IS and not at all on the side of anyone who opposes what groups like IS are trying to achieve ... i.e. what they would call "pure religious states free from the crude sexuality & debauchery of the west (they're extremely concerned, outraged, about that, apparently) and free from all manner of un-Godly behaviour" etc.).

They believe that the holy book has given them the unarguable word of God himself commanding them to play their part in a physical jihad (i.e. an all-out war) against all those who oppose Islam.

Like all the thousands of others, Shamima Begum seems to have believed that her most honest obedience to God was to help IS in whatever way she could.

If you are totally immersed in that religious Islamic belief, then it's not “daft” at all to join IS and to give your life for God. In fact it's the only honest godly choice. They really do believe that.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Fifteen isn't a toddler anymore.



We're all a product of our environment. That doesn't absolve us of responsibility.



ISIS is not just a cult, though.

It has more similarities to a cult than not


Just a very violent one

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by cullennz

It has more similarities to a cult than not


Just a very violent one

That's my point. At 15 she should've known better.

[IanS]

This evenings news is (BBC) that Shamima Begum's lawyer has just confirmed that today her parents received a letter from the UK Home Office confirming that Shamima is to be stripped of her British Citizenship -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47299907

[baron]

You didn't believe me?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Strawberry

She is a dual national with both Bangladeshi and British citizenship, which means the British can strip her of citizenship without making her stateless.



I said pages back this is what they should do, presumably Sajid Javid reads all my posts. You're welcome Mr Javid, now sign up to that backstop agreement for the Irish border while you're at it.

Evidence of her dual, and we'll now I suppose single citizenship?

[cullennz]

Oh well

No skin off my nose at the end of the day

Just doesn't pass the sniff test for me, a reason for a country to disown one of their own citizens, born there.

Would probably think differently if it was someone who moved over and got UK citizenship and they were just taking it off her.

But if you are going to start doing this please leave my right to abode in the UK alone as it means I get shorter cues, at Heathrow when going on holiday!!

[Strawberry]

Originally Posted by Darat

Evidence of her dual, and we'll now I suppose single citizenship?

Her parents were both born in Bangladesh, giving her automatic Bangladeshi citizenship. Its in any of the many news reports on the Home Secretary's decision.

[baron]

Originally Posted by Strawberry

Her parents were both born in Bangladesh, giving her automatic Bangladeshi citizenship. Its in any of the many news reports on the Home Secretary's decision.

He should cancel the parents' citizenship whilst he's at it, and boot them out. They're as culpable as she is.