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Old 18th September 2010, 04:24 AM   #321
femr2
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
Oh dear - I just read thru the 'Seismic Events' thread and saw what prompted this latest offering from Femr2.
The prompt is simply the mention of the camera shake. Anything else you infer is your own responsibility.

Quote:
I'd like to suggest that it is a meaningless correlation.
Perhaps, though there are numerous other events on the tower which also correlate.

Quote:
Who knows what caused the camera to be disturbed - maybe, while filming this static shot for long periods of time, somebody moved over close to it, maybe they were eating a ham sandwich and got careless.
Indeed, thus the lookie-see. Perhaps it's another coincidence, but performing the traces has already been fruitful regardless. Am sure further clarity will be revealed.

Quote:
Sure, you can use software to 'trace' the movements. So what? I fail to see what possible insight of value is ever going to come from this.
Really ? Well, for a start, identification of movement of WTC 1 ~9.5s in advance of release.

Again, would have thought you guys would be making a big deal with that metric, but hey

Quote:
What I would love to see you do is measure some real controlled demolitions with your methods and determine what the acceleration plots look like.
What on earth for ? You already know my opinion on the descent mechanism (ROOSD) which is entirely gravity driven. But I have no problem doing so. If you point me to a specific decent quality video with a static camera, preferably as little perspective distortion as possible, I'll sort you out with the trace data.

Quote:
Then we could use them to compare to the 3 WTC collapses...especially if you'd include WTC 2, which seems to be permanently off the radar with the Szamboti/Major_Tom crowd.
Well 1 & 7 are already available, 2 can and will be done at some point.
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Old 18th September 2010, 04:40 AM   #322
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Femr2:
I know it's most likely common knowledge to you but, where exactly was the camera mounted and what was it mounted on?
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Old 18th September 2010, 04:47 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Femr2:
I know it's most likely common knowledge to you but, where exactly was the camera mounted and what was it mounted on?
Don't have the info to hand, but...Camera location was 145 Avenue of the Americas ~1.5km I think.

Will dig out the more precise position dms and elevation, and camera details. Not sure If I've seen confirmation of exactly what mount, but certainly tripod.

Why ?
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Old 18th September 2010, 04:53 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
Don't have the info to hand, but...Camera location was 145 Avenue of the Americas ~1.5km I think.

Will dig out the more precise position dms and elevation, and camera details. Not sure If I've seen confirmation of exactly what mount, but certainly tripod.

Why ?
I think that would be number one if you are trying to connect ground movement to the camera.
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Old 18th September 2010, 05:22 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I think that would be number one if you are trying to connect ground movement to the camera.
The primary purpose is to determine early building movements. It's simply observation that all movements seem to begin at that point in time.

Whether the camera shake is coincidental or not makes no difference to the building movement observations.

I'll certainly be posting additional detail on events on the tower which also occur at that time. These events include ejection of pieces of the tower, pressure pulses resulting in rapid smoke volume increase, westerly features moving eastwards whilst easterly features moving westwards...that sort of thing.
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Old 18th September 2010, 06:23 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
The primary purpose is to determine early building movements. It's simply observation that all movements seem to begin at that point in time.

Whether the camera shake is coincidental or not makes no difference to the building movement observations.

I'll certainly be posting additional detail on events on the tower which also occur at that time. These events include ejection of pieces of the tower, pressure pulses resulting in rapid smoke volume increase, westerly features moving eastwards whilst easterly features moving westwards...that sort of thing.
As of 2010 the only game changer will be the simultaneous sound of demolition explosions on video tapes from several cameras.

Let us know if you come across them.
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Old 18th September 2010, 07:08 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
No. There are so many grey-variables in latching the seismic data to a specific time that it becomes very unwieldy, especially with poor quality graphs being the only data I've seen.

If the numeric seismic data is available, I'd be happy to do so. (or high fidelity graphs I suppose)
Does any other footage show any camera shake?

Does it show significant shake during the period where the generation of the most prominent seismic signals is expected?
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Old 18th September 2010, 08:07 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Does any other footage show any camera shake?
Not sure. Will be checking other fixed camera footage.

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Does it show significant shake during the period where the generation of the most prominent seismic signals is expected?
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Old 18th September 2010, 08:14 AM   #329
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Care to explain what the graph is, label the axes and put times, please, or alternatively answer the question directly instead of with an unlabeled image?
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Old 18th September 2010, 08:20 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Care to explain what the graph is, label the axes and put times, please, or alternatively answer the question directly instead of with an unlabeled image?
The graph is vertical camera movement (trace of near camera static point).

Upper field only, 29.97fps.

Vertical axis is pixels, horizontal axis is frames.

First period of high amplitude change is camera wobble ~9.5s in advance of release (for ~5s).

Release around frame 1100.

Second longer period is descent and wotnot (for ~30s).

Sorry, I'm far too used to the various trace shapes.

Last edited by femr2; 18th September 2010 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 18th September 2010, 10:24 AM   #331
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Thanks. Could you please pass the data through a high-pass filter, to remove the zigzag and better appreciate the magnitude of the shaking, maintaining the axes?
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Old 18th September 2010, 10:50 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Thanks. Could you please pass the data through a high-pass filter, to remove the zigzag and better appreciate the magnitude of the shaking, maintaining the axes?
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Old 18th September 2010, 10:56 AM   #333
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Curious question. Any idea what a trace of a video taken from a camera with video stabilization would look like if someone bumped the tripod?
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Old 18th September 2010, 10:59 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post

. If you point me to a specific decent quality video with a static camera, preferably as little perspective distortion as possible, I'll sort you out with the trace data.


Well 1 & 7 are already available, 2 can and will be done at some point.
How 'bout this one from your channel?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5iFW89tw2k

or this one from mine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GNhEpHfgfI

or this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVlC9rYU-gs
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Old 18th September 2010, 11:03 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Curious question. Any idea what a trace of a video taken from a camera with video stabilization would look like if someone bumped the tripod?
I don't have a tripod I'm afraid, but if someone uploads an appropriate video, I'll trace it.

I'd suggest, however, that the period of shake would be much less than the sustained 5s of the shake being plotted.

I'll also emphasise that the primary focus is the movement on the tower beginning at the same time, rather than the shake itself.
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Old 18th September 2010, 11:15 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
How 'bout this one from your channel?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5iFW89tw2k

or this one from mine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GNhEpHfgfI
Neither are great, but can do. (Third one won't work for some reason)

Not sure of the point in comparing verinage, but you're welcome to the data to do with as you will.

Before I begin though, what are you intending to look at ?

If velocities and acceleration (or indeed anything in real world units), then I'll need you to source building size metrics first, such that pixel based movements can be translated.
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Old 18th September 2010, 11:16 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
I don't have a tripod I'm afraid, but if someone uploads an appropriate video, I'll trace it.

I'd suggest, however, that the period of shake would be much less than the sustained 5s of the shake being plotted.

I'll also emphasise that the primary focus is the movement on the tower beginning at the same time, rather than the shake itself.
I would think you'd want to eliminate all the trivial explanations before you tried to connect the two. Coincidences happen all the time.
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Old 18th September 2010, 11:29 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I would think you'd want to eliminate all the trivial explanations before you tried to connect the two. Coincidences happen all the time.
Obviously, unless you are trying to prove some type of conspiracy.

I joined imdb pro, and neither of the Naudet brothers has contact information available. Before I spend much effort finding them, has anyone here previously asked them about this particular camera shake?

Thanks!
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Old 18th September 2010, 11:47 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I joined imdb pro, and neither of the Naudet brothers has contact information available. Before I spend much effort finding them, has anyone here previously asked them about this particular camera shake?

Thanks!
Don't think you'll get too far with the Naudet's...the video was shot by Etienne Sauret.


Still no mention from folk about identified movement ~9.5s in advance of release. Quite a surprise.
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Old 18th September 2010, 11:54 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I would think you'd want to eliminate all the trivial explanations before you tried to connect the two.
Again, perhaps it was knocked or due to the helicopter, perhaps not. Due to the behaviour of the shake, I doubt it was either of those, but regardless, the point is that numerous other events occur on the tower at the same time, all of which either suggest shaking or the earliest moments of an elongated initiation process relatively far in advance of release.
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Old 18th September 2010, 12:26 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
Again, perhaps it was knocked or due to the helicopter, perhaps not. Due to the behaviour of the shake, I doubt it was either of those, but regardless, the point is that numerous other events occur on the tower at the same time, all of which either suggest shaking or the earliest moments of an elongated initiation process relatively far in advance of release.
What does "behavior of the shake" mean. Did I miss something that eliminates (or causes doubt about) the mundane. Is it the timing alone?


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Old 18th September 2010, 12:41 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
What does "behavior of the shake" mean. Did I miss something that eliminates (or causes doubt about) the mundane. Is it the timing alone?
Not alone, no.

Horizontal...


Vertical...


A *knock* of the camera would behave in a more *impulse-decay* manner. The vertical movement recieves a couple-o *impulses*. There is no obvious initial impulse. Looks more like transmitted vibration than a knock to me, but feel free to disagree.

May go into more detail, but folks...tower movement ~9.5s in advance of release...
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Old 18th September 2010, 01:08 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
Not alone, no.

Horizontal...
http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/6/2/26055033.jpg

Vertical...
http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/6/68321176.png

A *knock* of the camera would behave in a more *impulse-decay* manner. The vertical movement recieves a couple-o *impulses*. There is no obvious initial impulse. Looks more like transmitted vibration than a knock to me, but feel free to disagree.

May go into more detail, but folks...tower movement ~9.5s in advance of release...
Could you point me to the thread (or post) about the "tower movement"? I assume it's on more videos then the one we're talking about here.
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Old 18th September 2010, 01:28 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Could you point me to the thread (or post) about the "tower movement"?
You don't have to read back far in this thread to find the link DGM...

onset-of-wtc1-movement-and-sauret-shake
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Old 18th September 2010, 01:39 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
You don't have to read back far in this thread to find the link DGM...

onset-of-wtc1-movement-and-sauret-shake
I read that. I'll have to read back through this thread. I figured you must be confirming movements with other videos.

Sorry if I missed that.
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Old 18th September 2010, 01:47 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
Thank you very much. The seismic graphs available don't reach that far. This is my guess at how the seismic data and the camera shake correlate (pure eyeballing without a theoretical basis):



The black vertical line marks frame 1100. I've added seconds to the frame numbers just to make it easier for myself to visualize the time axis. The superimposed graph is taken from this page: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/WTC_20010911.html

Since the seismic data does not start at an useful point to determine a possible correlation, I can't make my mind, but given the strong differences in intensities and the fact that there was not enough interest in the preceding moments from the people who released the seismic plot, and that the other coarser seismic plot doesn't show any relevant spike anywhere near there, I'm going to adventure the opinion that they're not correlated.

If you have enough interest, you may find this link useful:
www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_WTC/fact_sheet.htm

ETA: Maybe the first link on this page is useful too:
http://almaty.ldgo.columbia.edu:8080/data.request.htm
(the station name for Palisades is PAL, the network name is LCSN)
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Old 18th September 2010, 01:51 PM   #347
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Has Mr Sauret ever commented on or been asked to comment on the shake?
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Old 18th September 2010, 02:03 PM   #348
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It looks like a heavy passing vehicle to me.

I point to the following characteristics:

- The vertical movement signal starts at a roughly baseline level, swings increasingly negative, then makes a sudden swing to positive after which it decays approximately back toward the baseline. This corresponds to what I would expect to observe from the wave of ground displacement and/or air pressure from a passing heavy vehicle (but most likely ground displacement in this case).

- At the time of the swing from negative to positive, the frequency of the high frequency component of the vertical signal decreases noticeably. Since there is no reason to expect any physical changes to the camera mount altering its frequency response characteristics at that moment, this is most likely a change in the driving frequency, that is, vertical motion of the ground. A passing heavy vehicle offers a very straightforward explanation for this: a Doppler shift.

- At the same time, the horizontal shake frequency does not change, and at no time does that horizontal frequency match the vertical one. That suggests that the vertical oscillations are driven oscillations, at a resonant frequency of the camera-mount system. Beats, characteristic of such a driven oscillation, can be seen throughout that trace.

Can any other hypothesized cause better (or at least equally well) explain the specific characteristics of these signals? I await with bated (not baited!) breath.

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Old 18th September 2010, 02:05 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Has Mr Sauret ever commented on or been asked to comment on the shake?
Yes. No response.
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Old 18th September 2010, 02:08 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Thank you very much. The seismic graphs available don't reach that far.
I went on a hunt for the raw seismic data yesterday, with some success. I'm not sure what filters they apply, as the raw data is significantly noisier than their published graphs, but I'm bound to try and overlay them.

The raw data spans a wider timespan, but I don't think there's a 5s pulse there. (I'd be bangin' on about it already if there was I expect)

I'll have a look.

ETA: The raw data I scavenged was located from...

ftp://ftp.ldeo.columbia.edu/archive/...Waveform_Data/

ETS2: Overlay of seismic data seems fine.

Last edited by femr2; 18th September 2010 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 18th September 2010, 02:27 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It looks like a heavy passing vehicle to me.

I point to the following characteristics:

- The vertical movement signal starts at a roughly baseline level, swings increasingly negative, then makes a sudden swing to positive after which it decays approximately back toward the baseline. This corresponds to what I would expect to observe from the wave of ground displacement and/or air pressure from a passing heavy vehicle (but most likely ground displacement in this case).
The camera height above ground was quite large. Need to gather the details, but can be worked out by reference to the foreground building.

Also, the vertical position does not actually recover, and the *jump* is more likely to be *slippage* of the actual camera orientation due to the vibration.

Quote:
- At the time of the swing from negative to positive, the frequency of the high frequency component of the vertical signal decreases noticeably. Since there is no reason to expect any physical changes to the camera mount altering its frequency response characteristics at that moment, this is most likely a change in the driving frequency, that is, vertical motion of the ground. A passing heavy vehicle offers a very straightforward explanation for this: a Doppler shift.
I suggest re-evaluating when the height above ground has been presented.

Quote:
- At the same time, the horizontal shake frequency does not change, and at no time does that horizontal frequency match the vertical one.
I very much doubt they are both using the same scale. I'll have to regenerate them to know. They were produced for a different purpose.

Quote:
That suggests that the vertical oscillations are driven oscillations, at a resonant frequency of the camera-mount system. Beats, characteristic of such a driven oscillation, can be seen throughout that trace.
I think the horizontal motion shows more harmonic motion tbh.

Quote:
Can any other hypothesized cause better (or at least equally well) explain the specific characteristics of these signals?
I think elevation is the critical factor for your suggestion.

Other suggestions have been *helicopter* and *foot*.
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Old 18th September 2010, 02:49 PM   #352
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Sauret footage was apparently filmed from their studio location, making it...

7th Floor.

145 6th Avenue, 7th Floor.

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Old 18th September 2010, 02:53 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
Sauret footage was apparently filmed from their studio location, making it...

7th Floor.

145 6th Avenue, 7th Floor.

http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/6/878183310.png
If that's true I think it would be safe to rule out ground movement or passing trucks.

Thanks


ETA: Ground movement as in association with the towers.
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Old 18th September 2010, 02:54 PM   #354
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The height of the camera above ground is irrelevant, unless you're telling me it was airborne, hand-held or otherwise not directly supported by the ground. In which case, the video provides no support for any hypothesis that the shake was caused by a ground tremor of any origin whatsoever.

I was not clear about the nature of what I referred to as vertical ground movements. I meant this to include variations in tilt as well as any (probably much more minor and harder to detect by this method) variations in actual absolute ground elevation. But effects of any ground movement, whether tilting or absolute rise/fall or for that matter longitudinal shaking, would not be attenuated by a higher camera platform.

If the time scales and/or origins of your two graphs, apparently aligned on top of each other, are not the same, please correct this or at least make it clear as it is extremely misleading. In any case, the vertical shake frequency changes simultaneous with the inversion of the signal, consistent with a Doppler shift as the cause of the vibrations moves relative to the camera.

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Old 18th September 2010, 02:54 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
I went on a hunt for the raw seismic data yesterday, with some success. I'm not sure what filters they apply, as the raw data is significantly noisier than their published graphs, but I'm bound to try and overlay them.

The raw data spans a wider timespan, but I don't think there's a 5s pulse there. (I'd be bangin' on about it already if there was I expect)

I'll have a look.
From http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq...C_LDEO_KIM.pdf:
Figure 1: Seismic recordings on E-W component at Palisades for events at World Trade Center (WTC) on September 11, distance 34 km. Three hours of continuous data shown starting at 08:40 EDT (12:40 UTC). Data were sampled at 40 times/s and passband filtered from 0.6 to 5 Hz. Two largest signals were generated by collapses of Towers 1 and 2. Eastern Daylight Time (EDT) is UTC minus 4 hours. Expanded views of first impact and first collapse shown in red. Displacement amplitude spectra in nm-s from main impacts and collapses shown at right. Sampling is done for 14-second time windows starting about 17 s after origin time. Note broadband nature of spectra for collapses 1 and 2. Their signals are similar with a correlation coefficient of about 0.9 as are those for two impacts.
(bolding mine). Maybe that helps. Figure 1 is the famous 3-hour graph.

I've seen a small anomaly in that graph near the zone of interest. Not enough to draw any conclusions, but at least enough as to cast a little doubt.

Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
Other suggestions have been *helicopter* and *foot*.
I'd throw in a manipulation of the camera. A button press, the head touching the viewfinder...

Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
Sauret footage was apparently filmed from their studio location, making it...

7th Floor.

145 6th Avenue, 7th Floor.
I wouldn't discard they climbing up to the terrace. The take seems to be quite high.
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Old 18th September 2010, 03:05 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
If that's true I think it would be safe to rule out ground movement or passing trucks.

If that's true it a truck or subway less likely to be the vehicle in question, but then it could be lots of other things... a piece of equipment on a dolly a few feet away, a janitor wheeling a dump cart down the hallway, a forklift on the floor above or below...

There's also the possibility of machinery starting up, HVAC cycling. Lots of things make building floors shake. Though I still prefer a moving source because of the apparent tilt-reversal and Doppler shift in the vertical.

ETA: Elevators.

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Old 18th September 2010, 03:08 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
If that's true it a truck or subway less likely to be the vehicle in question, but then it could be lots of other things... a piece of equipment on a dolly a few feet away, a janitor wheeling a dump cart down the hallway, a forklift on the floor above or below...

There's also the possibility of machinery starting up, HVAC cycling. Lots of things make building floors shake. Though I still prefer a moving source because of the apparent tilt-reversal and Doppler shift in the vertical.

Respectfully,
Myriad
True.

The helicopter also gains merit. I know when they fly over my building things tend to shake.
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Old 18th September 2010, 03:19 PM   #358
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Old 18th September 2010, 03:43 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The height of the camera above ground is irrelevant
I disagree.

Quote:
unless you're telling me it was airborne
Which I'm clearly not, and it's clearly not, so why bother to make the suggestion.

Quote:
would not be attenuated by a higher camera platform
Building tremor absorbtion behaviour would come into play, but, again, the focus here should really be on the tower behaviour rather than get into such, aiii ?

Numerous events on the tower coincide. How many would stretch the bounds of coincidence do you rekn ? Again, I'm simply saying they coincide.

Quote:
If the time scales and/or origins of your two graphs, apparently aligned on top of each other, are not the same, please correct this or at least make it clear as it is extremely misleading.
It's only misleading when you make assumptions. Here's the shake vertical and horizontal motions overlaid...

(Slightly lower resolution data than previous images you are talking about (as this data is only from the upper field), but fit-for purpose.)

Quote:
In any case, the vertical shake frequency changes simultaneous with the inversion of the signal, consistent with a Doppler shift as the cause of the vibrations moves relative to the camera.
As I said above, vertical position change persists after the camera shake, indicating the vertical shift is a physical movement of the camera position/orientation.
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Old 18th September 2010, 03:47 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
I disagree.


Which I'm clearly not, and it's clearly not, so why bother to make the suggestion.


Building tremor absorbtion behaviour would come into play, but, again, the focus here should really be on the tower behaviour rather than get into such, aiii ?

Numerous events on the tower coincide. How many would stretch the bounds of coincidence do you rekn ? Again, I'm simply saying they coincide.


It's only misleading when you make assumptions. Here's the shake vertical and horizontal motions overlaid...
http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/6/685335724.png
(Slightly lower resolution data than previous images you are talking about (as this data is only from the upper field), but fit-for purpose.)


As I said above, vertical position change persists after the camera shake, indicating the vertical shift is a physical movement of the camera position/orientation.
I believe he made this post before he learned the camera was in 7 floors up in a building.
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