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Old 9th December 2013, 05:59 PM   #601
Justin39640
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Originally Posted by Animal View Post
That is fine.....you hold yours still, and I get to throw mine at 500 mph.
If this doesn't make a truther think for a second, nothing will.
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Old 9th December 2013, 06:07 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
Do you have a better idea? You need to scale down the dimensions of course, the rest can be adjusted as best as possible. The can will be filled with fuel. All we need is the machine beachnut is talking about and you are free to start smashing stuff around. I bet the can will go through but the explosion will be on contact, contrary to the videos, rather than kind of sucked in. We will need a fast camera too and more beers.
I have to admit, that's the most lucid comment you've posted AFAICT.

1) The scale matters. Smaller containers are going to perform differently. Cube square law, surface area to volume, etc...

2) Please feel free to explain why you assume the fuel would "explode on impact" and not be "kind of sucked in?" You do realize objects (fuel) in motion tend to stay in motion, etc...?
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Old 9th December 2013, 06:13 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by 1stClassAlan View Post
Forgive me - I am in recovery from an attack of Pneumonia! But I listened to an amazing procession of looney tunes on one of the wee small hour phone-in radio stations here recently.

The outstanding winner the this contest of stupid promotions was a guy that latched on to the Pentagon Attack - proclaiming it to be a Cruise Missile ( how could it be anything else? ) I reckon that the guy is still ranting down the phone days after the radio anchor hung up.

Why are Cruise Missiles so popular with C.T.'s ? Are they seen as the modern equivalent of smiting thunderbolts? Doesn't matter how they work - they can wreck what ever effect I say they can?

Seems passing strange to me, when they seem to have so much trouble with a large airliner doing the obvious damage - consistent with size and mass - whereas any kind of small missile would need a substantial secondary explosive.
I suspect that many CT'ers glom onto phraseology that sounds impressively techie - think "nanothermite" - that they themselves have not the slightest knowledge of or first hand experience with.

Back when thermite was the big thing, I'd explain how the material becomes molten at ignition and how difficult it would be to use it on any vertical structure, the come-back would be that if the thermite was "painted" on...and down the rabbit hole they would go.

We haven't seen the end of it, I'm sure. In 50 years some folks will be on whatever the 'net becomes and will be arguing fact against fiction, just like the JFK CT's
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Old 9th December 2013, 06:21 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I suspect that many CT'ers glom onto phraseology that sounds impressively techie - think "nanothermite" - that they themselves have not the slightest knowledge of or first hand experience with.

Back when thermite was the big thing, I'd explain how the material becomes molten at ignition and how difficult it would be to use it on any vertical structure, the come-back would be that if the thermite was "painted" on...and down the rabbit hole they would go.

We haven't seen the end of it, I'm sure. In 50 years some folks will be on whatever the 'net becomes and will be arguing fact against fiction, just like the JFK CT's
I've seen this from CTs in other, non-technology related areas as well. Stuff like trying to spot a 'fallacy' or writing a peer reviewed science paper. I suspect they have seen skeptics using them and use those terms without knowing what they really mean.
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Old 9th December 2013, 09:04 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
Why would you shoot with birds at 500mph rather than at their best speed? I would imagine a stationary plane would resist a birds impact better than one in motion as the combined speed adds up in collision.

How comes you can make so many links in one post so quickly? It must be these super computers they are giving you for Christmas. Can I become a disinfo agent?
Ah Mikey's, too bad English isn't your native tongue. More of your posts would make sense.
"Best speed"?

As far as beachnut making links quickly, you do realize there are hotkeys provided by href , plus the computer's copy/paste capability, plus the fact that he posted dozens of minutes apart.
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Old 9th December 2013, 09:08 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
I don't deny that a fast Boeing possibly could smash through a steel wall made of 1/2 in thick columns inclusive of wings. The analogy with copper or water jets are not quite good since the water comes as one stream while the plane is cladded with aluminium and this aluminium is very fragile in contact with birds. I would like to see what happens with a can of coke smashed at 500 mph against a steel crated window. That would give as better analogy. I don't have airport machines but I like beer and may supply chickens if need be.
Umm, Mikey's, demolitions cutter charges utilse an explosive that causes a wide stream of copper to cut large steel columns.
http://www.appliedexplosives.com/ind...n/aet-ccl.html

Last edited by jaydeehess; 9th December 2013 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 9th December 2013, 09:17 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
Why not sell that idea to the military.

I'm sure they could find a use for it.



I could use an effect I discovered and name it Munroe effect. (Just because I like that name)
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Old 9th December 2013, 09:33 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by BNRT View Post
I've seen this from CTs in other, non-technology related areas as well. Stuff like trying to spot a 'fallacy' or writing a peer reviewed science paper. I suspect they have seen skeptics using them and use those terms without knowing what they really mean.
Buzz words. Some of their favorites are quantum, free fall acceleration, own footprint, drone, nano-thermite. All very sciencey.
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Old 9th December 2013, 09:47 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
Buzz words. Some of their favorites are quantum, free fall acceleration speed, own footprint, drone, nano-thermite. All very sciencey.
Ftfy
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Old 9th December 2013, 10:02 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Ftfy

Beat me to it.
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Old 9th December 2013, 10:02 PM   #611
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Just thinking about cruise missiles (the drones of 2001) reminded me again how at the end of the day, after all the obsessing over super duper iron rich nana banana thermite, they still have a "theory" a thousand times more complex and riskier than simply hiring 19 fanatics to hijack four planes.

In the military we do course of action (COA) analysis. You usually pick 2-3 ways to accomplish your mission, wargame it with weighted values and figure which one best meets the commander's intent. Imagine if I presented a sane commander with:

COA 1 - secretly hire 19 fanatics to crash four planes to accomplish "X."

COA 2 - fill two skyscrapers occupied 24/7 with demo, hide four planes, invent fake passengers/put all the real passengers into shallow graves, project holograms 360 degrees over Manhattan, explode said demo, fire cruise missile into Pentagon, salt Pentagon with plane parts, wait six hours to explode WTC7, to accomplish "X."

What COA would he chose?
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Old 9th December 2013, 10:06 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
...What COA would he chose?
None of the Colonels/Generals I put solutions to would have chosen either of those...

...the order to remove myself from his presence would be quite brief and blunt. My promotion prospects bleak.

But I get your point - and I'm sure you wouldn't put the second one forward either.
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Old 9th December 2013, 11:06 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
Why would you shoot with birds at 500mph rather than at their best speed? I would imagine a stationary plane would resist a birds impact better than one in motion as the combined speed adds up in collision.

How comes you can make so many links in one post so quickly? It must be these super computers they are giving you for Christmas. Can I become a disinfo agent?
I have 30 windows open. "ctrl C", "ctrl V" are helpful, and right click... I am a geek, I have 8 computers running for my grandkids use. Is your computer slow? I have two more computers sitting idle, and a spare i3 chip in it's box. I have my original first of 250,000 IBM PC. I dumped 4 computers last year I built, and donated 5 monitors this past year (and I am only in the 15% bracket).

My mom made me take typing class in 1969, surrounded on eight sides by women; thank you mom.

I build my own computers, except for the laptop, or when I get lazy.

The NWO makes me type faster, or die.

USAF planes can go 500 mph or faster. The USAF needs to study bird damage and try to have canopies which repel birds to save pilots. The bird cannon needs to be as fast as the plane goes.

which hard fact was this about?

Last edited by beachnut; 9th December 2013 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 10th December 2013, 12:41 AM   #614
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
Just thinking about cruise missiles (the drones of 2001) reminded me again how at the end of the day, after all the obsessing over super duper iron rich nana banana thermite, they still have a "theory" a thousand times more complex and riskier than simply hiring 19 fanatics to hijack four planes.

In the military we do course of action (COA) analysis. You usually pick 2-3 ways to accomplish your mission, wargame it with weighted values and figure which one best meets the commander's intent. Imagine if I presented a sane commander with:

COA 1 - secretly hire 19 fanatics to crash four planes to accomplish "X."

COA 2 - fill two skyscrapers occupied 24/7 with demo, hide four planes, invent fake passengers/put all the real passengers into shallow graves, project holograms 360 degrees over Manhattan, explode said demo, fire cruise missile into Pentagon, salt Pentagon with plane parts, wait six hours to explode WTC7, to accomplish "X."

What COA would he chose?
COA-2a I'd subcontract space aliens to do it with a multi-phrase Vectron ray
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Old 10th December 2013, 02:51 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
Do you have a better idea? You need to scale down the dimensions of course, the rest can be adjusted as best as possible. The can will be filled with fuel. All we need is the machine beachnut is talking about and you are free to start smashing stuff around. I bet the can will go through but the explosion will be on contact, contrary to the videos, rather than kind of sucked in. We will need a fast camera too and more beers.
Yes, try it with analogues that at least vaguely resemble the real-world counterparts.

As for your comment about the videos, there is nothing unexpected on them. Which direction do you think the (not insignificant) mass of fuel was heading at impact, and why would it NOT enter the building? Remember you are talking about thousands of pounds of fuel here.
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Old 10th December 2013, 02:54 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
Just thinking about cruise missiles (the drones of 2001) reminded me again how at the end of the day, after all the obsessing over super duper iron rich nana banana thermite, they still have a "theory" a thousand times more complex and riskier than simply hiring 19 fanatics to hijack four planes.

In the military we do course of action (COA) analysis. You usually pick 2-3 ways to accomplish your mission, wargame it with weighted values and figure which one best meets the commander's intent. Imagine if I presented a sane commander with:

COA 1 - secretly hire 19 fanatics to crash four planes to accomplish "X."

COA 2 - fill two skyscrapers occupied 24/7 with demo, hide four planes, invent fake passengers/put all the real passengers into shallow graves, project holograms 360 degrees over Manhattan, explode said demo, fire cruise missile into Pentagon, salt Pentagon with plane parts, wait six hours to explode WTC7, to accomplish "X."

What COA would he chose?
I've always thought the best and simplest way to make people think an aircraft crashed into a building would be to crash an aircraft into a building, but then I've always been a bit unimaginative
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Old 10th December 2013, 03:13 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by Huttosaurus View Post
I've always thought the best and simplest way to make people think an aircraft crashed into a building would be to crash an aircraft into a building, but then I've always been a bit unimaginative
You would need extensive re-training to become a truther...

...after the lobotomy.
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Old 10th December 2013, 07:44 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
My mom made me take typing class in 1969, surrounded on eight sides by women; thank you mom.
My brother took typing class in the early 70s and I thought there might be something 'wrong' with him until I realised his plan...... Classmates!

Quote:
The NWO makes me type faster, or die.
I struggle to make my target number of words per week. Got docked 35 Ameros last month for that.
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Old 10th December 2013, 07:50 AM   #619
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
Just thinking about cruise missiles (the drones of 2001) reminded me again how at the end of the day, after all the obsessing over super duper iron rich nana banana thermite, they still have a "theory" a thousand times more complex and riskier than simply hiring 19 fanatics to hijack four planes.

In the military we do course of action (COA) analysis. You usually pick 2-3 ways to accomplish your mission, wargame it with weighted values and figure which one best meets the commander's intent. Imagine if I presented a sane commander with:

COA 1 - secretly hire 19 fanatics to crash four planes to accomplish "X."

COA 2 - fill two skyscrapers occupied 24/7 with demo, hide four planes, invent fake passengers/put all the real passengers into shallow graves, project holograms 360 degrees over Manhattan, explode said demo, fire cruise missile into Pentagon, salt Pentagon with plane parts, wait six hours to explode WTC7, to accomplish "X."

What COA would he chose?
In that world, no need for hiring - they have willing volunteers.
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Old 10th December 2013, 08:44 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
I would imagine....
OK. I think I've discovered the shortcoming with your analytical processes

Fitz
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Old 10th December 2013, 08:50 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
My brother took typing class in the early 70s and I thought there might be something 'wrong' with him until I realised his plan...... Classmates!


I struggle to make my target number of words per week. Got docked 35 Ameros last month for that.
I wondered where they got me the money to give me a 35 Amero bonus. Thanks!
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Old 10th December 2013, 10:29 AM   #622
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Originally Posted by Huttosaurus View Post
Yes, try it with analogues that at least vaguely resemble the real-world counterparts.

As for your comment about the videos, there is nothing unexpected on them. Which direction do you think the (not insignificant) mass of fuel was heading at impact, and why would it NOT enter the building? Remember you are talking about thousands of pounds of fuel here.
.
The demo has already been done, full scale. On 9/11/2001.
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Old 10th December 2013, 10:31 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I wondered where they got me the money to give me a 35 Amero bonus. Thanks!
.
The CIA is a buncha tight-fisted bassets also.
They owe me mucho buckerinos for my self-financed JFK efforts!
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Old 10th December 2013, 10:36 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I wondered where they got me the money to give me a 35 Amero bonus. Thanks!
I buckled down and type a bit faster now. I taught myself to use my left hand thumb for the space bar while maintaining use of each index finger for pecking at the other keys.
No more pay docking for me.
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Old 10th December 2013, 12:31 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
I have to admit, that's the most lucid comment you've posted AFAICT.

1) The scale matters. Smaller containers are going to perform differently. Cube square law, surface area to volume, etc...

2) Please feel free to explain why you assume the fuel would "explode on impact" and not be "kind of sucked in?" You do realize objects (fuel) in motion tend to stay in motion, etc...?
This is a swift piece of debunking. If I were a noob and didn't know better I'd pick my tail and run back into the woods.
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Old 10th December 2013, 12:39 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post

The NWO makes me type faster, or die.
Are you typing? I thought NWO would have better toys. Disappointed.
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Old 10th December 2013, 12:49 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
Are you typing? I thought NWO would have better toys. Disappointed.


Disappointingly, the NWO only equips we shills with gadgets which actually exist. The thought-to-screen tech isn't ready yet. All of the Igors are committed to labouring on the hard light hologram projector project so we're stuck with keyboards for now.
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Old 10th December 2013, 01:17 PM   #628
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
My brother took typing class in the early 70s and I thought there might be something 'wrong' with him until I realized his plan...... Classmates!...
High School late 60s...
The late night typing of a paper by mom and dad for big brother, inspired the idea for #2 son's mandatory typing class; an idea born at 3am. An idea backed with the possible need for typing college papers - part of the the plot, a goal, sons go to college.


24 hard facts? lol http://www.collective-evolution.com/...t-be-debunked/

911 truth disciples can't debunk 911 truth lies if they tried. Living terrorists? How stupid do the 911 truth claims have to be for 911 truth disciples to question their faith? Undefined?

911 truth loves to quote mine anything to support the delusional fantasies made up by other clueless 911 truth followers, true believers of woo.

Quote:
13) Towers were built to withstand a Boeing jet(s). “I designed it for a 707 to hit it”, Leslie Robertson, WTC structural engineer. “Could probably sustain multiple impacts of jetliners”, “like a pencil puncturing screen netting” Frank De Martini, deceased Manager of WTC Construction & Project Management. “As far as a plane knocking a building over, that would not happen.” Charlie Thornton, Structural Engineer. - See more at: http://www.collective-evolution.com/....mOapYMOi.dpuf
Wow, impact stuff is one of the "24 hard facts". They ignore the speed for the study Robertson did, 180 mph, and use BS made up with no specifications. The fact free movement of woo can't do physics.

It appears 911 truth loyal followers of woo, are unable to comprehend the WTC steel shell can be breached by almost any mass at some speed.

Fuel tanks and a wing entered the WTC due to lots of speed, which makes lots of energy, and 911 truth only tool is lots of ignorance.

911 truth can't do the math and physics to comprehend the shell with steel of the right strength >22mm thick would stop the wing tanks filled with fuel from entering the WTC up to speeds of 550 mph. Doubt they know what > is. Thicker steel might have changed what happened on 911. Slow aircraft, at pattern speeds would have failed on 911 to much more than make horrific crashes, and kill locally at the impact points, and anyone hit by debris and burning aircraft parts raining down on the WTC complex.

The WTC as built would stop the wing tanks with fuel at speeds up to 256 mph. Wonder why 911 truth followers act so dumb and make claims aluminum aircraft can't breach a steel building.

It would be interesting if one of the fringe few 911 truth disciples presented some math and physics to show why an airliner at 470 and 590 mph can't enter a the WTC shell. Something to really debunk, some math and physics. Why does 911 truth avoid doing the work? Not so interesting to see how 911 truth explains the hole left by aircraft on 911. How did the NWO make the hole to match the aircraft that hit the WTC.

Ignorance of math, gullibility, and laziness fuel the 911 truth movement constant supply of believers, who enter in ignorance and leave 911 truth when they mature with knowledge.
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Old 10th December 2013, 11:02 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
This is a swift piece of debunking. If I were a noob and didn't know better I'd pick my tail and run back into the woods.
So, no response?
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Old 10th December 2013, 11:55 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
This is a swift piece of debunking. If I were a noob and didn't know better I'd pick my tail and run back into the woods.
He happens to be right and it's a good example to learn from.

Most of the physics which truthers stumble over is at high school level. This one isn't - it is undergraduate level - at least - depending on specifics.

In fact it would probably be more productive to explore why real events happened - aircraft impact into Twin Towers for example - rather than rely on models which are difficult to process. Believe it or not but it is easier to explain aircraft into tower to complete novices in physics than it is to explain the drink can example. The pre-requisite is still the same - the novice must be both honest and willing to learn.

Using analogies presents the usual duo of difficulties:
1) Truthers usually cannot process analogies. (many debunkers also but that is not relevant here.)

2) All the 'scaling factors' - velocities, masses, structural aspects of both "missile"' and "target" - don't help understanding for lay persons who are not proficient in using modelling techniques.

Last edited by ozeco41; 10th December 2013 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 11th December 2013, 04:36 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Disappointingly, the NWO only equips we shills with gadgets which actually exist. The thought-to-screen tech isn't ready yet. All of the Igors are committed to labouring on the hard light hologram projector project so we're stuck with keyboards for now.
Tell me about it. My wife worked on the secret nano-thermate installation every night for weeks back during the summer of '01; I never saw her.
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Old 11th December 2013, 07:06 AM   #632
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I was jumping around from various page to various page on this thread last night, reading some of the most elaborate posts about all this. But what I`d like to know is...what is the basis for the reason for the conspiracy itself, that it was not a plane, but say a missile instead? And how does THAT tie into what happened that same day in NYC and Pennsylvania around the same time on the same day? Does this then also mean the Pentagon conspiracy then broadens to include the WTC buildings, as to what really happened there as well?
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Old 11th December 2013, 07:19 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
I was jumping around from various page to various page on this thread last night, reading some of the most elaborate posts about all this. But what I`d like to know is...what is the basis for the reason for the conspiracy itself, that it was not a plane, but say a missile instead? And how does THAT tie into what happened that same day in NYC and Pennsylvania around the same time on the same day? Does this then also mean the Pentagon conspiracy then broadens to include the WTC buildings, as to what really happened there as well?
I'm sure it's been remarked in this thread, probably several times, that truthers shy away from producing a coherent story which ties together the events of the day in the way they like to imply things happened. Far easier for them to gallop around pointing out things that "look suspicious to me" rather than say what they believe occurred.

A missile hitting the Pentagon was the very first piece of 9/11 conspiracy I ever heard of, when a friend told me about a documentary he'd seen by some French dude showing that the pentagon was hit by a missile rather than a plane. I was suspicious as my own recollection was that I'd heard eyewitness accounts at the time describing seeing a plane. He soon concluded he'd been suckered. That was probably the last I thought about it for most of a decade until I arrived here.
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Old 11th December 2013, 07:30 AM   #634
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Yeah. Last night i was engrossed by posts going into great detail about the entry hole...arguing about what was the entry hole as opposed to the exit hole, and some very detailed stuff.
Which remindedme of discussing trees but not seeing the forest. You know...that expression.
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Old 11th December 2013, 07:38 AM   #635
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
I was jumping around from various page to various page on this thread last night, reading some of the most elaborate posts about all this. But what I`d like to know is...what is the basis for the reason for the conspiracy itself, that it was not a plane, but say a missile instead? And how does THAT tie into what happened that same day in NYC and Pennsylvania around the same time on the same day? Does this then also mean the Pentagon conspiracy then broadens to include the WTC buildings, as to what really happened there as well?
Well you see,...

The attacks on the Twin Towers were holograms orchestrated by Larry Silverstein (the requisite "evil Jooo") who wanted to cover-up the fact he hired the New York Fire department to blow up 7 World Trade Center so he could lose billions of dollars in un-recovered losses and a decade of lost revenue.

Meanwhile in Washington,... Donald Rumsfeld holds a press conference on 9/10/2001 to say the DoD can not account for $2.3 trillion in missing funds. Thinking about it overnight he decides that was a really bad idea so the next morning he orders the Air Force (or the Navy or Pixar or someone) to paint a cruise missile to look like an airliner and blow up the Pentagon where the accounting office was located that was tracking those missing funds.

That this happened at the same time as the attacks on the Twin Towers is pure coincidence since so far as I know Larry Silverstein could not collect any insurance money from damage at the Pentagon.

Is Rummy Jewish?

Anyway,... Also at around the same time, while the nation was fully aware it was under attack the Air Force used super-secret stealth planes to shoot down Flight 93 then lie about it OR forced Flight 93 to secretly land for reasons unknown, and fired missiles into the dirt in Shanksville that made a perfect airplane outline in the ground and littered the area with passenger DNA and 757 parts. Reasons for doing this? Unknown.

I think that pretty well sums it up.
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Old 11th December 2013, 07:50 AM   #636
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Well, when you lay it all out like that, it all seems so reasonable.
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Old 11th December 2013, 08:31 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Well, when you lay it all out like that, it all seems so reasonable.
Happy to help. Now that this is all settled we can all just stick a fork in it and go on about our day, right?
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Old 11th December 2013, 09:05 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
Happy to help. Now that this is all settled we can all just stick a fork in it and go on about our day, right?
Ha, I wish. Every day another Truther who doesn't know its all over pops up. They are kinda like these guys:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_holdout
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Old 11th December 2013, 09:55 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
Happy to help. Now that this is all settled we can all just stick a fork in it and go on about our day, right?
.
But!!
"We have planes".
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Old 11th December 2013, 10:38 AM   #640
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
Is Rummy Jewish?
Wikipedia says Protestant, but I had to check Metapedia to get the real truth. He might not have existed at all.

Quote:
Donald Rumsfeld
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