ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags ae911truth , J. Leroy Hulsey , wtc 7

Reply
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:04 PM   #2681
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,471
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I have not yet bothered to check because they have always, every single year without exception, first applied for extended due date, then waited till the due date actually arrived, to file their tax return. This due date is in November (I don't recall which day - 1st or 15th). Expect to get a copy of the Form 990 then a bit after that - Decemberish.


Thanks. I do look forward to seeing it. I have mostly removed schadenfreude from my life but these truthers are an exception. Like when I was going back and forth with Dylan Avery’s alleged charity guy; the sheer corruption and incompetence just fascinated me. Also they are evil.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 07:39 PM   #2682
Fonebone
persona non grata
 
Fonebone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 544
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post

....Alas, Dr. Leroy Hulsey, a Ph.D. in structural engineering, appears to be unfamiliar with the work of ... Galileo.

Au Contraire ! Dr. Hulsey appears to thoroughly understand the demonstration of Galileo at the Tower of Pisa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kv-U5tjNCY


Hulsey's point is unless every column and the concrete core failed at the exact same instant the WTC7 could not
have come down without a twisting and/or leaning chaotically .
__________________
Truth, like the sun, allows itself to be obscured;
but, like the sun, only for a time. __Bovee
Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains taken to bring it to light. __George Washington
All great truths begin as blasphemies __Shaw

Last edited by Fonebone; 23rd August 2019 at 07:56 PM.
Fonebone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 08:35 PM   #2683
ozeco41
Philosopher
 
ozeco41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 7,498
Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Hulsey's point is unless every column and the concrete core failed at the exact same instant the WTC7 could not
have come down without a twisting and/or leaning chaotically .
Hulsey may have shown that he is incompetent at fundamental logic and probably not very good at engineering applied physics...

BUT I doubt that even he would make such a silly claim. And certainly NOT as a straw-man premise asserting what happend at WTC7.
ozeco41 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 08:44 PM   #2684
ozeco41
Philosopher
 
ozeco41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 7,498
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Alas, Dr. Leroy Hulsey, a Ph.D. in structural engineering, appears to be unfamiliar with the work of ... Galileo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulsey
This building is not symmetrical. Because it's not symmetrical, if something happens some place within the building, it's not going to come straight down. It's going to come down at an angle or rotate or any number of things, because the centroid of that building is not in the middle. It's just not. And so if there are things that are going on that cause it to come straight down, then there's got to be influences to make that happen.
That is typical of the junior high school level wrong physics we see from truthers.

It is hard to see how ANY competent professional engineer would make those silly assertions - even if they were deliberately watering down the explanation to present to school children. If the presentation was for school kids the most important aspect would be to explain why those truther style false understandings were WRONG.
ozeco41 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 11:04 PM   #2685
Venom
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 2,864
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
September 2001 - Terrorist Attack at World Trade Center
August 2002 - NIST starts building safety investigations
October 2005 - Report on WTC 1 and 2
November 2008 - Report on WTC 7
August 2019 - Hulsey "nearing the finish line" on completion of report that criticizes 11-year-old report.

I saw this in the interview. Apparently, if papers are in a file drawer in a towering inferno, they can't burn.



Alas, Dr. Leroy Hulsey, a Ph.D. in structural engineering, appears to be unfamiliar with the work of ... Galileo.

Originally Posted by Hulsey
This building is not symmetrical. Because it's not symmetrical, if something happens some place within the building, it's not going to come straight down. It's going to come down at an angle or rotate or any number of things, because the centroid of that building is not in the middle. It's just not. And so if there are things that are going on that cause it to come straight down, then there's got to be influences to make that happen.


Even an idiot like me can laugh at this.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 11:40 PM   #2686
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 25,258
9/11 truth nuts can't figure out hulsey is nuts

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Au Contraire ! Dr. Hulsey appears to thoroughly understand the demonstration of Galileo at the Tower of Pisa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kv-U5tjNCY


Hulsey's point is unless every column and the concrete core failed at the exact same instant the WTC7 could not
have come down without a twisting and/or leaning chaotically .
What? Did you watch the video of the collapse? The Penthouse section falls into WTC 7 due to internal failure. Thus 9/11 truth nuts and Hulsey have no clue what happened as Hulsey makes up BS based on ignornace.

Fire caused the collapse. 19 terrorists are solely responsible for the murdered people on 9/11. The NYPD, and other first responders are responsible for saving lives and trying to save more as they died.

Thus, 9/11 truth nuts and Hulsey are not able to grasp reality as they spread lies and disrespect those killed due to the acts of 19 failed humans fooled by UBL to kill Americans (USA people), when and where UBL could.

Hulsey is a failed engineer, and only fools those who can't figure out 9/11 after 18 years. In 18 years 9/11 truth followers, aka nuts, could have earned a PhD in engineering and see Hulsey is nuts on 9/11.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2019, 02:12 AM   #2687
Cosmic Yak
Master Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 2,882
Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Au Contraire ! Dr. Hulsey appears to thoroughly understand the demonstration of Galileo at the Tower of Pisa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kv-U5tjNCY


Hulsey's point is unless every column and the concrete core failed at the exact same instant the WTC7 could not
have come down without a twisting and/or leaning chaotically .
I think I may have missed the post where you reveal your own expertise and qualifications in the relevant fields.
Would you mind linking to it?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2019, 05:36 AM   #2688
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,647
Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
...
Hulsey's point is unless every column and the concrete core failed at the exact same instant ...
Since direct observations tell us that this was not the case, if he really wants to make this point, he is just wrong.

But I am sure you misconstrue his point.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2019, 05:37 AM   #2689
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,647
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I think I may have missed the post where you reveal your own expertise and qualifications in the relevant fields.
Would you mind linking to it?
Would he be any less wrong if his credentials were world-class stellar?
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2019, 12:56 PM   #2690
Safe-Keeper
Philosopher
 
Safe-Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8,531
Originally Posted by Hulsey
This building is not symmetrical. Because it's not symmetrical, if something happens some place within the building, it's not going to come straight down. It's going to come down at an angle or rotate or any number of things, because the centroid of that building is not in the middle. It's just not. And so if there are things that are going on that cause it to come straight down, then there's got to be influences to make that happen.
That looks like something written by Trump.

"at an angle or rotate or any number of things", "there are things going on", "centroid is not in the middle". I can tell they have a PhD.
__________________
In choosing to support humanitarian organizations, it's best to choose those that do not have "militant wings" (Mycroft, 2013)
Safe-Keeper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 01:29 AM   #2691
Cosmic Yak
Master Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 2,882
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Would he be any less wrong if his credentials were world-class stellar?
No, but it might at least be possible for the engineers on this forum to have a semi-intelligent debate with him about it. Right now, fonebone is relying on hubristic ignorance as his foundation. No amount of factual input will change this, as he either doesn't know, or doesn't understand, enough about the subject to be able to make an informed assessment.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 05:05 AM   #2692
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,647
Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
That looks like something written by Trump.

"at an angle or rotate or any number of things", "there are things going on", "centroid is not in the middle". I can tell they have a PhD.
It's strange that he missed that the building actually DID rotate and fall and various angles. Oh, and that things went on!
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 06:45 AM   #2693
Fonebone
persona non grata
 
Fonebone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 544
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
What? Did you watch the video of the collapse? The Penthouse section falls into WTC 7 due to "internal failure".



Exhibit A Neat pile of debris of WTC7 lying in it's own footprint



Exhibit B WTC7 pent-house falling through the path of greatest resistance due to "internal failure"

creating a enormous white dust cloud that covered the WTC complex as the 47 story collapsed into a neat pile.



Exhibit C Obligatory invectives and technical flapdoodle debunking attempt......


Quote:
Thus 9/11 truth nuts and Hulsey have no clue what happened as Hulsey makes up BS based on ignornace.

Fire caused the collapse. 19 terrorists are solely responsible for the murdered people on 9/11. The NYPD, and other first responders are responsible for saving lives and trying to save more as they died.

Thus, 9/11 truth nuts and Hulsey are not able to grasp reality as they spread lies and disrespect those killed due to the acts of 19 failed humans fooled by UBL to kill Americans (USA people), when and where UBL could.

Hulsey is a failed engineer, and only fools those who can't figure out 9/11 after 18 years. In 18 years 9/11 truth followers, aka nuts, could have earned a PhD in engineering and see Hulsey is nuts on 9/11.
__________________
Truth, like the sun, allows itself to be obscured;
but, like the sun, only for a time. __Bovee
Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains taken to bring it to light. __George Washington
All great truths begin as blasphemies __Shaw
Fonebone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 07:21 AM   #2694
bknight
Graduate Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,752
Fonebone that image indicates to me that there was twisting and rotating as the building collapsed. So Hulsey is still wrong after 18 years and you haven't a clue.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 09:10 AM   #2695
heymatto70
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 110
The collapse of WTC7 caused extensive damage to at least two buildings, including Fitterman Hall which was not salvageable. How does that happen if the building "collapsed in its own footprint"?
heymatto70 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 09:20 AM   #2696
bknight
Graduate Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,752
Originally Posted by heymatto70 View Post
The collapse of WTC7 caused extensive damage to at least two buildings, including Fitterman Hall which was not salvageable. How does that happen if the building "collapsed in its own footprint"?
From only looking at one piece of evidence (the image presented) and looking no further for other possible explanations.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 09:37 AM   #2697
heymatto70
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
From only looking at one piece of evidence (the image presented) and looking no further for other possible explanations.
Even his own pictures aren't showing a "neat pile". Everything looks twisted and damaged. When I think of a neat pile, I think of a stack of papers that I get from the copier. Those pics looked like chaos.
heymatto70 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 11:01 AM   #2698
Fonebone
persona non grata
 
Fonebone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 544
Originally Posted by heymatto70 View Post
The collapse of WTC7 caused extensive damage to at least two buildings, including Fitterman Hall which was not salvageable. How does that happen if the building "collapsed in its own footprint"?
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
From only looking at one piece of evidence (the image presented) and looking no further for other possible explanations.
Originally Posted by heymatto70 View Post
Even his own pictures aren't showing a "neat pile". Everything looks twisted and damaged. When I think of a neat pile, I think of a stack of papers that I get from the copier. Those pics looked like chaos.

Some of these questions were addressed in this post ...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...98#post7378798



and the subject was thoroughly examined in this thread...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=214226
__________________
Truth, like the sun, allows itself to be obscured;
but, like the sun, only for a time. __Bovee
Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains taken to bring it to light. __George Washington
All great truths begin as blasphemies __Shaw
Fonebone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 12:02 PM   #2699
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 25,258
Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Some of these questions were addressed in this post ...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...98#post7378798



and the subject was thoroughly examined in this thread...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=214226
Oh? lol, 2 acres of WTC towers trashed 19 acres of NYC. You addressed these issues by cherry picking. 19 acres are not their own footprints, but is a tagline to fool gullible followers. A footprint is one acre, not 19. You lost this math quiz, better luck with Bigfoot, a real footprint scam. I don't thinks you understand footprint. oops, you forgot the buildings damaged by WTC tower debris - Are those buildings in WTC towers' footprint? that is funny

What does it mean? oops, fire caused the collapse, a gravity collapse.

The best part of your stuff. Showing WTC 7 all over a street, and calling the street, the building footprint. Did you mean to lie or was it a mistake?

The WTC complex damage caused by two planes hitting the WTC with the impact energy equal to 2093 pounds of TNT, and was it 1600 pounds - like two big bombs but the energy was delivered as a kinetic energy impact - then thousands of gallons of jet fuel started the biggest office fires in seconds in history. And you ignore that fires caused the collapse of the towers and WTC 7. You don't understand science, physics, fire, and steel.

What about symmetry? There are more 9/11 truth dumbed down taglines to support. What about like a knife through butter?
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232

Last edited by beachnut; 27th August 2019 at 12:04 PM.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 12:54 PM   #2700
Allen773
Graduate Poster
 
Allen773's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cali Four Neea
Posts: 1,023
beachnut, you’re forgetting that the smaller WTC7 couldn’t possibly have collapsed several hours after the nearby Twin Towers collapsed after some suicidal hijackers slammed a couple of 767s into them at 500mph, causing massive structural damage and unbelievably intense fires within the buildings, for the simple reason that the World Trade Center was as strong and unshakable as the Titanic was unsinkable. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Oh wait...
Allen773 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 12:55 PM   #2701
Allen773
Graduate Poster
 
Allen773's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cali Four Neea
Posts: 1,023
Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
That looks like something written by Trump.

"at an angle or rotate or any number of things", "there are things going on", "centroid is not in the middle". I can tell they have a PhD.
Is that how Trump Tower was built?
Allen773 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 01:29 PM   #2702
bknight
Graduate Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,752
Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Some of these questions were addressed in this post ...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...98#post7378798

and the subject was thoroughly examined in this thread...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=214226
First off, WTC 1 caused extensive damage to WTC 7 when it fell, so that makes your argument meaningless. The damage to WTC 7 caused the fires to break out in many locations, resulting in the destruction of WTC 7. So no they didn't fall onto their footprint, obviously there will be some parts of each building on their respective footprints, but most fell outside. Look at the image record.
You fail.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 02:36 PM   #2703
pgimeno
Illuminator
 
pgimeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,447
Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Exhibit A Neat pile of debris of WTC7 lying in it's own footprint
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1db3d77a2d.jpg
I don't think that image proves what you claim it proves.

pgimeno is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 02:46 PM   #2704
Fonebone
persona non grata
 
Fonebone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 544
Nice story Bro !
This is what the LIDAR record shows

The pillow shaped green mound to the far left is the footprint if the WTC7 Tower.
Can you spot the two other mounds in the LIDAR ?


Those mounds are the two twin towers resting inside their respective footprints !
__________________
Truth, like the sun, allows itself to be obscured;
but, like the sun, only for a time. __Bovee
Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains taken to bring it to light. __George Washington
All great truths begin as blasphemies __Shaw

Last edited by Fonebone; 27th August 2019 at 02:47 PM.
Fonebone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 03:11 PM   #2705
Fonebone
persona non grata
 
Fonebone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 544
Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I don't think that image proves what you claim it proves.









This graphic is dated 01-09-13 indicating this was the scene two day after the attacks.The toasted and burned-out vehicles on both sides
of the street near Fitterman Hall are towed as are the post office trucks that were parked on the sidewalk
in front of the post office. Can you see the large mound pile of debris where the WTC7 should be ?
Yes, I acknowledge that some of the 47 story tall WTC7 tower spilled into the four surrounding streets. The graphic proves
the tower fell straight down into the footprint as defined by demolition experts.
__________________
Truth, like the sun, allows itself to be obscured;
but, like the sun, only for a time. __Bovee
Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains taken to bring it to light. __George Washington
All great truths begin as blasphemies __Shaw
Fonebone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 03:12 PM   #2706
pgimeno
Illuminator
 
pgimeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,447
Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Nice story Bro !
This is what the LIDAR record shows

The pillow shaped green mound to the far left is the footprint if the WTC7 Tower.
Can you spot the two other mounds in the LIDAR ?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1fc8b30cb7.jpg

Those mounds are the two twin towers resting inside their respective footprints !
I don't know what you're saying here.

Are you saying that the two debris sections I highlighted with arrows are in the footprint of the building? Are you saying they are not part of the building? Are you saying they were moved there at some point before/after the LIDAR image was taken?

I think it's clear that they are out of the footprint of the building, and that proves that your claim with respect to the exhibit you've shown is wrong.

Of course the height of the final mound of debris is maximum within the footprint of the building, as in most total collapses. Gravity pulls downwards.

Also, remember that the ground broke when WTC1 and WTC2 fell, making a lot of the debris go into the parkings below, causing the debris mound to be smaller in these areas.

ETA: It's easy to see that in the LIDAR image. Just pay attention to what is ground level, and notice how much of the areas around WTC1 and WTC2 is below ground level. Note these holes were created by debris of WTC1 and WTC2 that does not show as mounds in the image, and is therefore clearly outside the footprint.

Last edited by pgimeno; 27th August 2019 at 03:31 PM.
pgimeno is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 03:20 PM   #2707
pgimeno
Illuminator
 
pgimeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,447
By the way, this is a picture of the WTC2 footprint area. Try to match it with the LIDAR image and think a bit about what the LIDAR image actually shows.

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/...wtc2south2.jpg
pgimeno is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 04:07 PM   #2708
JSanderO
Master Poster
 
JSanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 2,927
This into footprint means little. Something that breaks apart will collapse down into a pile... a pile of elements ... small pieces will fall like jenga blocks. The build didn't fall over. Its parts may have had some torque and lateral forces acting on then from the collapse. The form of the debris pile only tells is that a huge structure broke apart and fell down.
__________________
So many idiots and so little time.
JSanderO is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 04:10 PM   #2709
Fonebone
persona non grata
 
Fonebone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 544
Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I don't know what you're saying here.

Are you saying that the two debris sections I highlighted with arrows are in the footprint of the building? Are you saying they are not part of the building? Are you saying they were moved there at some point before/after the LIDAR image was taken?

I think it's clear that they are out of the footprint of the building, and that proves that your claim with respect to the exhibit you've shown is wrong.

Of course the height of the final mound of debris is maximum within the footprint of the building, as in most total collapses. Gravity pulls downwards.

Also, remember that the ground broke when WTC1 and WTC2 fell, making a lot of the debris go into the parkings below, causing the debris mound to be smaller in these areas.

ETA: It's easy to see that in the LIDAR image. Just pay attention to what is ground level, and notice how much of the areas around WTC1 and WTC2 is below ground level. Note these holes were created by debris of WTC1 and WTC2 that does not show as mounds in the image, and is therefore clearly outside the footprint.



Perhaps I didn't make myself clear !


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...98#post7378798


excerpt:
Better yet
Howsabout I use the NIST own words and borrow the NIST's dictionary !

NIST NCSTAR 1 A 2.2.2 2nd paragraph
[excerpt]
Quote:
When the WTC1 collapsed at 10:28:22 a.m.
--most-- of the debris landed--in-- an area --not much larger-- than the original
WTC1 building footprint.

Dr. Brazant : (WTC1 & WTC2 ) "collapsed essentially on their footprint"

NIST : "most of the debris landed
in an area not much larger than the original
WTC1 building footprint."

FEMA : The WTC7 tower debris field averaged 75 feet from the original building footprint. [/excerpt]


Fonebone>

I'm quoting NIST,FEMA, and Dr. Brazant describing the three tower collapses. Do you have any disagreement with those assessments ?
I clearly stated the burned -out vehicles that cluttered Washington street north of barclay st were removed.
The post-office vehicles South of Barclay were also removed, The NIST clearly states the WTC7 debris field averaged 75 feet from the actual building footprint.
Both Vessey street and barclay streets did contain ancillary debris but the building is mostly contained in the footprint.
The WTC7 was NOT located over the "bathtub" caisson.The north wall of the bathtub caisson ended at the south side of Vessey street.



__________________
Truth, like the sun, allows itself to be obscured;
but, like the sun, only for a time. __Bovee
Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains taken to bring it to light. __George Washington
All great truths begin as blasphemies __Shaw

Last edited by Fonebone; 27th August 2019 at 04:11 PM.
Fonebone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2019, 06:58 PM   #2710
pgimeno
Illuminator
 
pgimeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,447
Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear !
No you didn't, and you still don't. As I said, in most total (building - forgot to specify that) collapses the highest part of the debris pile ends up in their blueprint, so that tells nothing about the cause, really.

So assuming that's what you actually meant when you wrongly said that the WTC7 pile was "lying in it's own footprint", what's the significance of that?

Before you answer, take a look at a couple collapses caused by fire...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Last edited by pgimeno; 27th August 2019 at 07:00 PM.
pgimeno is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2019, 06:55 AM   #2711
bknight
Graduate Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,752
Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear !

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...98#post7378798

excerpt:
Better yet
Howsabout I use the NIST own words and borrow the NIST's dictionary !

NIST NCSTAR 1 A 2.2.2 2nd paragraph
[excerpt]
Quote:
When the WTC1 collapsed at 10:28:22 a.m.
--most-- of the debris landed--in-- an area --not much larger-- than the original
WTC1 building footprint.

Dr. Brazant : (WTC1 & WTC2 ) "collapsed essentially on their footprint"

NIST : "most of the debris landed
in an area not much larger than the original
WTC1 building footprint."

FEMA : The WTC7 tower debris field averaged 75 feet from the original building footprint. [/excerpt]


Fonebone>

I'm quoting NIST,FEMA, and Dr. Brazant describing the three tower collapses. Do you have any disagreement with those assessments ?
I clearly stated the burned -out vehicles that cluttered Washington street north of barclay st were removed.
The post-office vehicles South of Barclay were also removed, The NIST clearly states the WTC7 debris field averaged 75 feet from the actual building footprint.
Both Vessey street and barclay streets did contain ancillary debris but the building is mostly contained in the footprint.
The WTC7 was NOT located over the "bathtub" caisson.The north wall of the bathtub caisson ended at the south side of Vessey street.



Do you read what you're linking and understand the implications?

Most not all.

Not much larger, not the same size.

Essentially, not exact.

Averaged 75 feet, meaning some were less than 75 some greater than 75.

Mostly, not all.

Now as JSanderO indicated so what? pgimeno showed videos of other fire collapsed buildings. Why do you make a big deal out of this? Does all the bravado contradict that WT 7 collapsed due to widespread fires in the building? NO!
Come back when you have better debating material.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2019, 07:44 AM   #2712
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 13,834
Out of curiosity, do you know why such care is taken in controlled demolitions?

It's not just placing explosives. That's usually only the final initiating stage.

Essentially, CD is a controlled collapse. The goal is not to keep the building from falling over like a tree. It's not even to keep most of the building from falling into it's own footprint; that's going to happen in ANY building collapse.

The primary reason for all the prep work in CD (which includes partial cutting of some support members, removal of some internal load bearing structures, etc...a LOT more than some magic super-thermite and invisible explosives) is to prevent that "75 foot average" like WTC 7 had.

WTC 7 was damaged and eventually collapsed due to debris thrown when WTC 1 and WTC 2 fell.That's what CD prep is intended to minimize. The goal of CD is not to collapse it into a pile, but to prevent it from throwing bits out. To reduce that 75 foot average as much as possible.

The entire CD argument based on this is, essentially, ignorance taking. Most people have only seen building collapses in videos of CDs or entertainment (movies/TV). They assume the "TV building collapse" reflects reality, rather than drama and spectacle.

I'd say we reverse the challenge. Find high-rise failures that DON'T result in something very similar to WTC 7. It's been claimed over and over that the collapse of these buildings was atypical...so prove that. Show the data. Do a statistical study of building collapses that shows that the average distance of debris form the footprint was atypical in these cases.
__________________
Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together. - Eugene Ionesco
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2019, 08:27 AM   #2713
JSanderO
Master Poster
 
JSanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 2,927
Truthers do not accept that these building could collapse because they were so strong and stood for decades. They also believe that fire is incapable of weakening and distorting a structure so that it can no longer perform... stay standing. Further they seem to believe that parts of a building falling onto the lower part(s) can lead to catastrophic damage. Since they refuse to believe that a steel building can collapse from some fires.. the collapses had to be intentional demolitions.

Stupid logic.
__________________
So many idiots and so little time.
JSanderO is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2019, 10:55 AM   #2714
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 25,258
the accidental debunker

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
... FEMA : The WTC7 tower debris field averaged 75 feet from the original building footprint. ...[/excerpt]
Accidental debunker you be.

Similar to the idiotic rant of maga or wwg1wga... "into its own footprint" from the pile of meaningless woo which resonates with the paranoid mindless followers.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232

Last edited by beachnut; 28th August 2019 at 10:57 AM.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2019, 11:49 AM   #2715
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,647
Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
...The graphic proves the tower fell straight down into the footprint as defined by demolition experts.
Can you please cite this "as defined by demolition experts"?

Because, you see, I have so far been under the impression that "into the footprint", to a demolition expert, means "no large debris leaves the immediate premise of the building such that no surrounding (infra)structure gets damaged or blocked". You see, demolition experts have a purpose there: To not damage neighboring buildings, to not spill out onto the street.

WTC blocked streets all around and caused major, even fatal, damage, to two buildings across two different streets.

I am pretty sure EVERY demolition expert in the world would call this a "FAILURE" if the goal had been to collapse "within the footprint".


So this is whyI ask you to cite any actual demolition expert who DEFINES "into the footprint" in a way that is, objectively, consistent with the WTC7 debris pattern.


Your predicted failure to provide such a citation by an actual demolition expert will be scored as you making up bad ****
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2019, 04:58 PM   #2716
JSanderO
Master Poster
 
JSanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 2,927
Truth movement's use of the phrase -controlled demolition- is not intended to be read literally I suspect. What they seem to suggest is not that the destruction was controlled... but that some group engineered and placed devices which was led to the collapse of each building. The presumed goal was not to mimic a CD but to collapse/destroy the building. Falling into the footprint was not an objective... I suspect if the towers toppled they would be OK with that result.

Their destruction and collapse took the form of a gravity driven collapse. It appears the the location where structural failures dominated and which triggered the collapse was different in each of the towers... and informs one's understanding of how the structural integrity failed.
__________________
So many idiots and so little time.
JSanderO is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2019, 05:57 PM   #2717
ozeco41
Philosopher
 
ozeco41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 7,498
Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Truth movement's use of the phrase -controlled demolition- is not intended to be read literally I suspect.
Good point Sander. We have become so used to "CD" that we forget that all it needed was "D"... the "C" is redundant.

I even recall too many times in former years where a debunker attempting rebuttal relied on the false assumption that the "D" would need to be "C".
ozeco41 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2019, 02:52 AM   #2718
pgimeno
Illuminator
 
pgimeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,447
Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Truth movement's use of the phrase -controlled demolition- is not intended to be read literally I suspect.
This whole "into the footprint" meme is directed at suggesting that it was a controlled demolition because that's what is done in controlled demolitions.

Many truthers insist in the footprint point, including Gage in his presentations. And that's exactly what Fonebone is claiming.
Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Exhibit A Neat pile of debris of WTC7 lying in it's own footprint
It's intended to be read literally. It's intended to suggest that since that's how CDs are done, this one was a CD.

Therefore, showing that it caused damage to adjacent buildings and that other collapses due to fire also leave a similar distribution of debris, is sufficient to totally destroy the argument that "it was a controlled demolition because it fell in its footprint".
pgimeno is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2019, 05:21 AM   #2719
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,647
I wanted to respond to this "footprint" debate with a snide at a meme that AE911T recently posted on their Facebook wall - but then I glanced up and saw that this here is still the "Hulsey presents research" thread, and so I refrained from continuing the derail
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2019, 10:34 AM   #2720
JSanderO
Master Poster
 
JSanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 2,927
Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
....
It's intended to be read literally. It's intended to suggest that since that's how CDs are done, this one was a CD.
...
I can't say for sure... but I think they use the CD because it a common and understood term... They likely do not mean literally because clearly the destruction was no controlled... but the towers were completely destroyed which IS a CD attribute.


It's a stupid argument to have.... ie what they meant by using the term... or why they chose it.
__________________
So many idiots and so little time.
JSanderO is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:54 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.