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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 25th August 2019, 10:38 AM   #1921
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
On the contrary, Ms Whataboutery Staceyhs can think of all sorts of alternative reasons for Knox' bloody footprints, mixed DNA, blood on lightswitch, Raff's knife, her DNA on hilt, Mez' DNA on blade, etc., etc.

There is even an alternative universe to 'explain' why all the courts including the final Supreme Court ruled that:
[list][*]There were multiple attackers[*]Knox was present at the murder *during the time Meredith Kercher was killed*[*]Amanda Knox did wash Meredith Kercher's blood from her hands
Ah, er, now for the 73rd time, this is what the final acquitting court wrote, as the reason for acquitting..... note they wrote that "even if" the meme of Knox washing blood from her hands is true, which is what the "attribution" refers to.... "even if",....
Originally Posted by Marasca-Bruno in 2015
Nevertheless, even if attribution is certain, the trial element would not be
unequivocal as a demonstration of posthumous contact with that blood, as a likely
attempt to remove the most blatant traces of what had happened, perhaps to help
someone or deflect suspicion from herself, without this entailing her certain direct
involvement in the murder. Any further and more meaningful value would be, in fact,
resisted by the fact - which is decisive - that no trace leading to her was found at the
scene of the crime or on the victim’s body, so that - if all the above is accepted - her
contact with the victim’s blood would have occurred after the crime and in another
part of the house.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No need to get personal. I am merely quoting the judges, who are trained and experienced criminal barristers.

Unlike yourself.
No you're not. You never do. You quote Harry Rag/The Machine, or something on the TJMK hate site. If you quoted judges you would not be attracted to the nutter-haters.

My bet is that this is going to have to be quoted to you a 74th time.
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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Old 25th August 2019, 10:40 AM   #1922
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Isn't it strange then that you consistently choose NOT to quote from the only judges whose opinions actually matter in this case: the judges of the Italian Supreme Court on the Marasca panel (who correctly and justly tore the prosecution and errant lower courts to pieces on the murder-related charges), and the judges of the European Court of Human Rights (who tore the State of Italy to pieces on Knox's criminal slander "conviction").

You should try quoting those judges some time, Vixen. It might help you to understand this case better.......


ETA: it's Knox's, not Knox'
Oooooops. You beat me to it. I should have stayed lurking. What's the matter with me?
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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Old 25th August 2019, 10:46 AM   #1923
AnimalFriendly
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I'm betting you can also justify and explain how Speck was not the killer and how the prosecution and the police got it all wrong.
There's an old saying "bet with your head, not over it". This is a bizarre statement...even considering you're the one who made it. Stacy cited Speck as an example of a male who, like Guede, murdered by himself and without any accomplices. A simple concept that any mentally healthy adult can easily grasp. And once again, it's way too much for you. Quelle surprise.
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Old 25th August 2019, 11:19 AM   #1924
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I'm betting you can also justify and explain how Speck was not the killer and how the prosecution and the police got it all wrong.
In your well recognized, usual, and desperate tactic, instead of addressing the fact that Speck, alone, managed to strangle or stab to death EIGHT women in a dorm in one night, you make a ludicrous claim based on nothing I wrote. Why is that, Vixen? Could it be because the Speck case contradicts your misguided belief that Guede alone could not have killed Meredith?

Instead, you do exactly what you accuse abaddon of doing: you get personal.
"Ms Whataboutery Staceyhs". At least spell my name correctly when you go all Trumpish.
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Old 25th August 2019, 11:33 AM   #1925
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[quote=Vixen;12798032
>snipped <
In other words, the pair got away with murder and what is more her fans are happy about it!

It is simply shocking that anyone can condone this type of behaviour but they do. No doubt Speck has his fans, too.
[/QUOTE]

This is not the first time you have made this claim and it has always fascinated me. Do you honestly think that the pro-innocent side believes the two are truly guilty but supports then anyway? You truly believe that two people, whom we do not know and had never heard of before Nov. 2007, are so important to us that we would condone a horrible murder of an innocent young woman? If you truly believe that, then I would suggest the irrationality lies with you and not us.
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Old 25th August 2019, 11:35 AM   #1926
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So not based on reason or rationality but blind hate and irrational dislike of the person who brought the initial prosecution against your idol/s.

Yes, we see.
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Old 25th August 2019, 11:58 AM   #1927
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
Vixen makes the ludicrous claim only a woman would pull someone's hair. One thing I have learned is that you should never underestimate the stupidity of PGP posters.
If only we had video disproving Vixen's claim! Oh, wait...

Cop pulls woman by hair out of car:

https://newsmaven.io/pinacnews/cops-...Ea8sDzfb7EVZw/

Man pulling woman around by hair:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaiQnKF8Ees

Man pulling woman from car by her hair:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv5cEd3eY6g

Man pulling female bartender by hair:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Kk50sgYbo

If only we had news reports of men pulling women by their hair:

Quote:
MOUNTAIN REST, S.C. —
A man is wanted on kidnapping and domestic violence charges after he pulled a woman by her hair, hit her with a belt and tried to choke her, deputies with the Oconee County Sheriff's Office said.
https://www.wyff4.com/article/man-wa...s-say/24079621

Quote:
LPD: Man arrested after allegedly pulling woman by hair, preventing her from leaving residence.

Police said she had bruising and redness consistent with her description of the incident.
https://www.lmtonline.com/local/crim...n-13689897.php

But I'm sure Vixen is quite right that men don't pull women's hair and my lying eyes can't be trusted.
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Old 25th August 2019, 03:50 PM   #1928
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Originally Posted by AnimalFriendly View Post
Thanks for the example of the BTK killings, well said. One of the reasons PGP insist that Kercher had to have been murdered by multiple assailants is that this somehow, in their twisted minds, raises her heroic status. Witness them always bringing up her very elementary skills in martial arts as if this somehow "proves" that more than 1 person "had" to have been involved. One wonders why they never seemed to apply this "reasoning" to Jody Arias having managed by HERself to stab her ex(?) BOYfriend to death.


Ah but the Arias case is a bad comparator, because (IIRC, as the evidence shows), she set about her bf in a rage. And indeed (again IIRC) he did have defensive wounds to his hands and arms.

And that's the cornerstone of Vixen's ignorant belief in respect of the Kercher murder: if Guede alone was the perpetrator, one would expect Kercher to have sustained signs of defensive injuries - whether in the form of knife wounds to her hands/arms or punching/throttling injuries etc. Vixen ignorantly goes on to claim that the absence of any such defensive injuries on Kercher's body necessarily proves that there must have been multiple attackers (one or more of whom held Kercher down while one or more others assaulted and stabbed her).

But that's precisely why an example like the BTK case is extremely relevant to any examination of the Kercher murder (and why something like the Arias case is actually much less relevant). If there is a sole perpetrator, and one or more people end up murdered, then typically there are two main ways in which the situation evolves:

The first (e.g. Arias case) is where the perpetrator clearly sets out from the beginning of any physical confrontation to harm the victim(s). For example (again probably e.g. Arias) the perpetrator comes at the victim(s) with a knife and/or gun. In this scenario, the victim clearly knows, right at the start of any physical contact (in fact, often before any physical contact) that the perpetrator intends to harm them severerly. And that's exactly why, in this scenario, one would usually expect to see some level of defensive injuries to the victim - e.g. knife wounds to the hands and/or arms where the victim has tried to prevent or deflect knife strikes.

But the second (e.g. Guede/Kercher case or BTK case) is where the perpetrator initially demonstrates that he has the means to inflict grave harm to the victim(s) - whether by brandishing a large knife, or revealing a gun, or even occasionally by being so physically superior the the victim(s) that it would be obvious to the victim(s) that they could be easily overcome and badly harmed. That's an important first step.

And then the second step is that the perpetrator goes on to verbally (and/or using gesticulations) deceive and control the victim prior to any physical confrontation. Typically, this takes the form of some variant of "carrot and stick" approach - e.g. "Get on your knees and put your hands behind your back: do what I tell you and I promise I won't harm you; but try to resist, run away, or call out, and I'll badly harm (or kill) you"*. In this scenario, it's very unlikely that the victims(s) would believe (or even risk believing) that the perpetrator's ultimate true intention is to kill them; and that being the case, the victim(s)' logically-optimum choice is to comply with the perpetrator's instructions.

So now we have a situation where the victim(s) has/have chosen to comply - but by doing so, have placed themselves in a much more physically vulnerable situation (for example, the BTK killer persuaded his victims to let him tie them up (or in some instances, tie each other up....), and it's probable that Guede persuaded Knox to get on her hands and knees and allow him to hold her from behind with his knife at her throat). In turn, this means that the victim(s) is/are almost incapable of defending themselves if the perpetrator does decide to inflict serious injuries.

And this, in a nutshell, is almost certainly the reason why Kercher did not exhibit any defensive injuries: Guede had already forced her into compliance (by using some form of the psychological trick outlined above), and by allowing herself to get into a situation where any further form of defence was near-impossible (since she reasoned it was better to do what Guede said than have him rush her with his large knife....) she was effectively unable to defend herself against the ultimate fatal knife attack: Guede's knife would already have been at her throat, and there would have been no way Kercher could do anything about him going on to stab her in the throat. And thus no defensive injuries.


* Often it won't even be necessary for the perpetrator to spell things out in this level of detail - exactly the same implication can often be accomplished in very few words and/or gestures (remembering, of course, that the perpetrator has already shown the victim(s) that he has the means to inflict great harm or death upon them if he so chooses....)
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Old 25th August 2019, 03:52 PM   #1929
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post


At least yours doesn't appear to have actually blown up with a loud bang and acrid-smelling smoke, as mine did......
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Old 25th August 2019, 05:13 PM   #1930
Stacyhs
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"......Guede persuaded Knox Kercher to get on her hands and knees..."

FTFY.

Women often comply with their rapists' requests due to being told that they will not be killed if they do. This was the case with Richard Speck.



Quote:
Next, Amurao told how Speck herded all six girls present in the townhouse into the bedroom, then tore strips off a sheet and tied them up. Later, when three other nurses returned home, they too were made captive. She described Speck's peculiar ambivalence towards his prisoners, smiling a lot, almost friendly. "Don't be afraid," he said while tying one of the girls, "I'm not going to kill you."

Minutes later he began doing just that.
Speck also had a long history of criminal behavior since childhood being 14 at the time of his first arrest. His ex-wife claimed he routinely raped her. It is also believed he killed at least one other woman before the eight nurses. A woman was beaten to death and her stolen articles were found in his hotel room. He had fled to Chicago a couple hours before the police arrived.

Speck told the nurses that he wasn't going to hurt them but he needed money, so they complied with his orders. He did have a gun, but he would have had to set it down in order to rip the sheets into strips and tie their hands and ankles. Still, the women did not attempt to flee or fight him.

Quote:
As author Richard Lindberg has stated: “How he accomplished this with minimal to no resistance is one of the enduring mysteries in the annals of Chicago crime.” Why did none of the women try to escape? Why did they not try and overpower Speck as he was tying another victim? Why did none of the women in the other townhouses hear anything that was taking place? No one knows and as Lindberg has noted — it remains a mystery.
https://tobedamit.com/2016/05/15/lif...richard-speck/
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Old 25th August 2019, 05:56 PM   #1931
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I found this interesting considering that the PGP claim that the lack of defensive wounds indicates Kercher was held down by multiple assailants:

Quote:
3. In our analyzed sample, the most murder victims
sustained only one type of defensive injuries. The bruises were
most commonly registered, mostly localized on the dorsal side
of the hands and forearms, which is explained by the way of defense of the victim from an attack protruding hands in front of
himself/herself as a shield
Meredith had bruising on her right forearm.

Quote:
CONCLUSION
Murders with defense injuries are mostly recorded in
men aged from 21 to 30, who are killed in a sober state. The
use of firearms is the essential feature of murders of men,
while women are typically killed with sharp and pointed
weapons. Defensive injuries are usually registered in murders with homicidal wounds predominantly localized on the
front of the body. In our analyzed sample, the most murder
victims sustained only one type of defensive injuries. The
bruises were most commonly registered, mostly localized on
the dorsal side of the hands and forearms.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3fd...1b091ed6eb.pdf

The PGP fail to take into consideration that many of the bruises found on Kercher's body could have been defensive wounds and, instead, ascribe them to being held down by multiple assailants. Additionally, if Kercher were being held down by two people, how did she obtain the four defense cuts found on her hands?
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Old 25th August 2019, 06:10 PM   #1932
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
On the contrary, Ms Whataboutery Staceyhs can think of all sorts of alternative reasons for Knox' bloody footprints, mixed DNA, blood on lightswitch, Raff's knife, her DNA on hilt, Mez' DNA on blade, etc., etc.

There is even an alternative universe to 'explain' why all the courts including the final Supreme Court ruled that:
  • There were multiple attackers
  • Knox was present at the murder *during the time Meredith Kercher was killed*
  • Amanda Knox did wash Meredith Kercher's blood from her hands
  • Knox did name Patrik Lumumba because she was covering up for Rudy Guede
  • Raffale Sollecito was almost certainly there with her
  • The pair told umpteen lies
  • Sollecito willfully supplied a false alibi.


In other words, the pair got away with murder and what is more her fans are happy about it!

It is simply shocking that anyone can condone this type of behaviour but they do. No doubt Speck has his fans, too.

No need to get personal. I am merely quoting the judges, who are trained and experienced criminal barristers.

Unlike yourself.
Vixarino,
You're stating the "evidence" from the 2007 tabloid stories as "fact", here in 2019. Since 2007, the European Court of Human Rights and the Italian Supreme Court have both ruled in Knox and Sollecito's favor. Some of the top forensic geneticists in the world (including the guy that basically invented the field) have published papers in top forensic journals explaining why your tabloid facts are wrong. And some of the top investigators at the FBI have explained why the evidence was wrong and misinterpreted, and that Amanda/Raf didn't actually participate in a pagan sex murder ritual with a burglar they met on the street to murder someone they had no beef with. (Yes, it does indeed still sound completely lunatic crazy to type that out.)

Given that there have been countless world renowned experts in every relevant field that have come out with published scientific evidence and reasoning proving Amanda and Raffaele are innocent, and all of the highest courts in Europe and Italy have found them innocent -- can you concisely explain why you still believe the tabloid stories from 2007 over all of them?
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Old 25th August 2019, 08:18 PM   #1933
TruthCalls
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
On the contrary, Ms Whataboutery Staceyhs can think of all sorts of alternative reasons for Knox' bloody footprints, mixed DNA, blood on lightswitch, Raff's knife, her DNA on hilt, Mez' DNA on blade, etc., etc.

There is even an alternative universe to 'explain' why all the courts including the final Supreme Court ruled that:
  • There were multiple attackers
  • Knox was present at the murder *during the time Meredith Kercher was killed*
  • Amanda Knox did wash Meredith Kercher's blood from her hands
  • Knox did name Patrik Lumumba because she was covering up for Rudy Guede
  • Raffale Sollecito was almost certainly there with her
  • The pair told umpteen lies
  • Sollecito willfully supplied a false alibi.


In other words, the pair got away with murder and what is more her fans are happy about it!

It is simply shocking that anyone can condone this type of behaviour but they do. No doubt Speck has his fans, too.

No need to get personal. I am merely quoting the judges, who are trained and experienced criminal barristers.

Unlike yourself.
On the contrary, you've been asked numerous times to cite evidence to support any of these bogus claims and you fail every time.

There is also an alternative universe to 'explain' why the only courts whose opinions matter ruled that:
  • Amanda and Raffaele had nothing to do with the murder
  • Amanda's rights were violated during the interrogation, which renders the results of the interrogation inadmissible.
In other words, the pair were wrongly accused of being involved in the crime, and what's more, the nutter_guilter_haters are happy about it!

No need to get personal. I am merely quoting the judges, who are trained and experienced criminal barristers.

Unlike yourself.

And BTW, Vixen, you wrote "Mez was a fit young lady trained in kick-boxing..." - Meredith was not trained in kick-boxing. She had taken a few karate lessons but was a rank amateur. Can't you get even one thing correct?
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Old 25th August 2019, 10:10 PM   #1934
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Vixen's continued use of "Mez" while being neither her friend nor family is done to get a rise out of the PIP. It's exactly the same motive I see in political forums where the right wingers condone anything as long as it gets a rise from the 'libtards'.
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Old 26th August 2019, 01:18 AM   #1935
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
"......Guede persuaded Knox Kercher to get on her hands and knees..."

FTFY.

Women often comply with their rapists' requests due to being told that they will not be killed if they do. This was the case with Richard Speck.





Speck also had a long history of criminal behavior since childhood being 14 at the time of his first arrest. His ex-wife claimed he routinely raped her. It is also believed he killed at least one other woman before the eight nurses. A woman was beaten to death and her stolen articles were found in his hotel room. He had fled to Chicago a couple hours before the police arrived.

Speck told the nurses that he wasn't going to hurt them but he needed money, so they complied with his orders. He did have a gun, but he would have had to set it down in order to rip the sheets into strips and tie their hands and ankles. Still, the women did not attempt to flee or fight him.


https://tobedamit.com/2016/05/15/lif...richard-speck/
So now Guede had a history of raping and beating up his wife. He also had a gun.

The lengths you'll go to.
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Old 26th August 2019, 01:27 AM   #1936
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So now Guede had a history of raping and beating up his wife. He also had a gun.

The lengths you'll go to.


So the actual point of Stacy's post went right over your head, huh?
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Old 26th August 2019, 03:45 AM   #1937
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So now Guede had a history of raping and beating up his wife. He also had a gun.

The lengths you'll go to.
He has a history of anti-social behavior, trespassing, breaking and entering, carrying a stolen knife, etc.

On the night Meredith was murdered his bloody footprints and hand prints surround her body and there's an apparent break-in very similar to the one a few blocks away he was arrested in connection with.

Someone matching his description is seen on CCTV approaching the cottage, alone. In his own testimony he claims Meredith was attacked by a single male attacker. He has knife marks on his stabbing hand.

Imagine how easily you could solve this self evident case if your brain wasn't stuck on tabloid nonsense delusion that's gunked it all up.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:21 AM   #1938
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So now Guede had a history of raping and beating up his wife. He also had a gun.

The lengths you'll go to.
What's the matter with you?
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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Old 26th August 2019, 07:05 AM   #1939
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
He has a history of anti-social behavior, trespassing, breaking and entering, carrying a stolen knife, etc.

On the night Meredith was murdered his bloody footprints and hand prints surround her body and there's an apparent break-in very similar to the one a few blocks away he was arrested in connection with.

Someone matching his description is seen on CCTV approaching the cottage, alone. In his own testimony he claims Meredith was attacked by a single male attacker. He has knife marks on his stabbing hand.

Imagine how easily you could solve this self evident case if your brain wasn't stuck on tabloid nonsense delusion that's gunked it all up.
Vixen is, herself, a major producer of this nonsense, but your point is well taken.

This case was never complex. In fact, it was actually rather simply to solve. The case only got complex when the prosecution tried to connect Amanda and Raffaele to it. They needed to get very creative, fabricate an entire narrative, make a mockery of forensic science, violate police procedures, abstain from logical thinking and common sense, and even then they continuously ran into dead ends and contradictions. In the end the Italian Supreme Court put an end to it, making it very clear that the police and the lower courts had failed miserably, and that the Italian criminal justice system is not intended to be based on assumption and speculation.

Vixen apparently bought into all the early media nonsense, developed an obsession with Amanda, and became blinded to the simple truth. I now think my not getting interested in the case until late 2011 was a major advantage to me. I didn't get brainwashed with all that early media crap. By the time I started looking into the case, many of the bogus claims had been exposed and it was far easier to get a clear view of the case. Vixen, otoh, is hopelessly lost in the guilter quagmire.
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Old 26th August 2019, 08:49 AM   #1940
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Vixen is, herself, a major producer of this nonsense, but your point is well taken.

This case was never complex. In fact, it was actually rather simply to solve. The case only got complex when the prosecution tried to connect Amanda and Raffaele to it. They needed to get very creative, fabricate an entire narrative, make a mockery of forensic science, violate police procedures, abstain from logical thinking and common sense, and even then they continuously ran into dead ends and contradictions. In the end the Italian Supreme Court put an end to it, making it very clear that the police and the lower courts had failed miserably, and that the Italian criminal justice system is not intended to be based on assumption and speculation.

Vixen apparently bought into all the early media nonsense, developed an obsession with Amanda, and became blinded to the simple truth. I now think my not getting interested in the case until late 2011 was a major advantage to me. I didn't get brainwashed with all that early media crap. By the time I started looking into the case, many of the bogus claims had been exposed and it was far easier to get a clear view of the case. Vixen, otoh, is hopelessly lost in the guilter quagmire.
I don't buy into the media. I have a well-honed ******** detector.


But you clearly have lapped up the PR so in a way the $2m Knox' family invested in PR has worked in respect of the gullible.
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Old 26th August 2019, 09:50 AM   #1941
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't buy into the media. I have a well-honed ******** detector.


But you clearly have lapped up the PR so in a way the $2m Knox' family invested in PR has worked in respect of the gullible.
Hopefully the alleged cop killers can hire the same PR firm. But does it come with free mafia court rigging?
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Old 26th August 2019, 10:35 AM   #1942
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Facts, not falsehoods:

KNOX v. Italy
Leading | Case | 76577/13 | Italy | English | Judgment Date: 24/01/2019 | Date Final Judgment: 24/06/2019 | Payment Information: Awaiting information on payment | Pending | New Case | Awaiting AP/R | Violations: DAV, MTNQ, PEINT | Theme Domain: Access to and efficient functioning of justice: Unfair judicial proceedings (criminal charges), Right to life and protection against torture

Lack of an effective investigation into allegations of ill-treatment by the police during the questioning of a young woman in a state of shock.

Lack of legal assistance and of appropriate interpretation during the questioning.

Source: https://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng#{%22EXECDocumentTypeCollection%22:[%22CEC%22],%22EXECState%22:[%22ITA%22]}

ETA: "AP/R" means "Action Plan or Report" - the proposed actions or other information from the respondent state (Italy) on how it proposes to fulfill its obligations to correct its violations of international law

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Old 26th August 2019, 10:43 AM   #1943
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So now Guede had a history of raping and beating up his wife. He also had a gun.

The lengths you'll go to.
I've asked before if you ever get tired of embarrassing yourself. I think that question has been definitively answered.

As for you having "a well-honed ******** detector", don't you get tired of it constantly going off every time you post something?

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Old 26th August 2019, 10:54 AM   #1944
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't buy into the media. I have a well-honed ******** detector.


But you clearly have lapped up the PR so in a way the $2m Knox' family invested in PR has worked in respect of the gullible.


Dammit! I just bought a shiny new Irony-o-meter on Amazon Prime, and you've broken it on Day 1 with your first sentence

By the way, though, that "$2m PR Supertanker" stuff is a total batcrap myth, as you well ought to know by now. I suggest you perhaps do a search on the subject within these threads, or at the very least try to get an objective, factual education on this case in general.....


Oh and it's Knox's, not Knox'
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Old 26th August 2019, 10:56 AM   #1945
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
So the actual point of Stacy's post went right over your head, huh?
It didn't go over her head, LJ. This is a very common tactic. When someone cannot, or does not want to, acknowledge something that undermines their claims, they try to direct the conversation elsewhere or reply with silly irrelevancies. The trouble is, these tactics only work on those that are not aware of them. And we are.
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Old 26th August 2019, 11:16 AM   #1946
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
D


Oh and it's Knox's, not Knox'
Quite right. According to The Plain English Campaign:

Quote:
With names or singular nouns that end in 's', 'x' or 'z', we usually add an apostrophe followed by 's'.

For example:

The bus's journey came to an end.
The fox's den was well hidden.
http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/using-apostrophes.html

Note that this is a BRITISH grammar site so no claims of American vs. British English can be made. Faced with incontrovertible evidence that Knox' is wrong, reasonable, intelligent, and logical people would stop using it. But some people, sadly, are so incapable of admitting error that they would rather continue looking foolish than accept they're wrong.
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Old 26th August 2019, 01:17 PM   #1947
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't buy into the media. I have a well-honed ******** detector.


But you clearly have lapped up the PR so in a way the $2m Knox' family invested in PR has worked in respect of the gullible.
If the case against Amanda and Raffaele was such a slam dunk and the evidence so solid as Vixen constantly claims, why is that 12 years after Meredith's murder Vixen has to resort to lies such as saying the Knox family spent two million on PR.
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Old 26th August 2019, 01:27 PM   #1948
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't buy into the media. I have a well-honed ******** detector.


But you clearly have lapped up the PR so in a way the $2m Knox' family invested in PR has worked in respect of the gullible.
No you don't.
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Old 26th August 2019, 03:49 PM   #1949
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I've seen the $2 million PR campaign claim by the PGP all over the internet but I've yet to see a single credible source for it. I suspect it originated on PMF or TJMK. Perhaps Vixen would care to provide evidence of said monetary expenditure? You know, actually back up this claim?

I don't really care if it cost $2 million or not. The point is whether this is yet another PGP factoid or not.

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Old 26th August 2019, 05:02 PM   #1950
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I've seen the $2 million PR campaign claim by the PGP all over the internet but I've yet to see a single credible source for it. I suspect it originated on PMF or TJMK. Perhaps Vixen would care to provide evidence of said monetary expenditure? You know, actually back up this claim?

I don't really care if it cost $2 million or not. The point is whether this is yet another PGP factoid or not.
IIRC the $2M PR campaign meme originated with Mignini. There is very little that the haters have EVER banged on about, that originated anywhere else.

The guilter nutters have been Mignini's PR machine, and they've done it for free.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:15 PM   #1951
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I've seen the $2 million PR campaign claim by the PGP all over the internet but I've yet to see a single credible source for it. I suspect it originated on PMF or TJMK. Perhaps Vixen would care to provide evidence of said monetary expenditure? You know, actually back up this claim?

I don't really care if it cost $2 million or not. The point is whether this is yet another PGP factoid or not.


I seem to remember that this might have come about on account of Knox's family once saying they'd probably spent something in the region of $2 million in relation to the case.

And then (if my above recollection is correct...) one or more of the nasty, vindictive dunderheads among the pro-guilt group somehow decided to interpret this - using the cool, objective logic and reason for which they've become renowned - as the Knox family having spent $2 million on PR (aka "The PR Supertanker"). And once that myth had been seeded, the rest of the groupthink low-intellect pro-guilt herd decided not to question or challenge that (mis)interpretation, but rather to write it into their own biassed, hate-filled lexicon of the case.

To say that this is beyond stupid (as well, of course, as typically vindictive and unpleasant) is something of an understatement. Not to mention the fact that it flies in the face of what's actually known in respect of this case. And what's known is as follows:

1) David Marriott is on record as having stated that he offered his services more-or-less free to the Knox family, initially in order to provide a screen and a filter from the barrage of media requests and intrusions, but then later to provide a small amount of general advice on what kind of message to convey to the media. His work was undertaken (IIRC) on a purely personal level, and not through his PR company Gogerty Marriott.

2) Knox required vast amounts of legal representation over several years, involving a team of at least two lawyers, led by an expensive chief counsel (dalla Vedova). This representation had to cover the period from mid-November 2007, probably right through up to and including the several-month-long Massei trial in 2009; then preparation and trial in Hellmann's court (again, over several months); then preparation for the Chieffi SC panel adjudication; then preparation and trial in Nencini's court (two months); then preparation for the Marasca SC panel. The pro-guilt idiots should perhaps try to calculate what that might have added up to in total legal fees.

3) In addition, Knox's defence team hired various experts to examine the evidence and to testify in the Massei and Hellmann trials. Experts of this sort most certainly do not come cheap. Maybe the pro-guilt idiots should have a crack at estimating the total cost of these experts.

4) And on top of that, the Knox family made many trips to Italy over the years between 2007-2015. This entailed long-haul flights from Seattle to Italy, and accommodation and subsistence costs (though IIRC they were offered subsidised accommodation at some point). For some of those trips, just one family member travelled; but for many of them, as many as several family members travelled. Perhaps the pro-guilt idiots should have a go at adding up a decent estimate of total return long-haul Seattle-Italy flights taken by the Knox family over the years, together with total accommodation and subsistence costs.


So if (IIRC) the Knox family did indeed say they'd spent around $2 million, I'd say it's really not very difficult to arrive at that figure by adding together total legal fees plus total experts' fees, plus total family travel/accommodation/subsistence fees. Unless you inhabit the Bizarro-World of pro-guilt idiots, that is......
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:49 PM   #1952
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LondonJohn, that certainly makes sense. The PMF/TJMK crowd always had a penchant for producing assfacts: from 'mixed blood' to the 'private chartered airplane' to the 'bloody footprints' to the 'left-handed Sollecito' to the 'mafia and Masons interference' to the 'cocaine using Knox' to the 'bent experts and judges' and to all the other factoids they've promoted.
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Old 26th August 2019, 08:31 PM   #1953
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I seem to remember that this might have come about on account of Knox's family once saying they'd probably spent something in the region of $2 million in relation to the case.

And then (if my above recollection is correct...) one or more of the nasty, vindictive dunderheads among the pro-guilt group somehow decided to interpret this - using the cool, objective logic and reason for which they've become renowned - as the Knox family having spent $2 million on PR (aka "The PR Supertanker"). And once that myth had been seeded, the rest of the groupthink low-intellect pro-guilt herd decided not to question or challenge that (mis)interpretation, but rather to write it into their own biassed, hate-filled lexicon of the case.

To say that this is beyond stupid (as well, of course, as typically vindictive and unpleasant) is something of an understatement. Not to mention the fact that it flies in the face of what's actually known in respect of this case. And what's known is as follows:

1) David Marriott is on record as having stated that he offered his services more-or-less free to the Knox family, initially in order to provide a screen and a filter from the barrage of media requests and intrusions, but then later to provide a small amount of general advice on what kind of message to convey to the media. His work was undertaken (IIRC) on a purely personal level, and not through his PR company Gogerty Marriott.

2) Knox required vast amounts of legal representation over several years, involving a team of at least two lawyers, led by an expensive chief counsel (dalla Vedova). This representation had to cover the period from mid-November 2007, probably right through up to and including the several-month-long Massei trial in 2009; then preparation and trial in Hellmann's court (again, over several months); then preparation for the Chieffi SC panel adjudication; then preparation and trial in Nencini's court (two months); then preparation for the Marasca SC panel. The pro-guilt idiots should perhaps try to calculate what that might have added up to in total legal fees.

3) In addition, Knox's defence team hired various experts to examine the evidence and to testify in the Massei and Hellmann trials. Experts of this sort most certainly do not come cheap. Maybe the pro-guilt idiots should have a crack at estimating the total cost of these experts.

4) And on top of that, the Knox family made many trips to Italy over the years between 2007-2015. This entailed long-haul flights from Seattle to Italy, and accommodation and subsistence costs (though IIRC they were offered subsidised accommodation at some point). For some of those trips, just one family member travelled; but for many of them, as many as several family members travelled. Perhaps the pro-guilt idiots should have a go at adding up a decent estimate of total return long-haul Seattle-Italy flights taken by the Knox family over the years, together with total accommodation and subsistence costs.


So if (IIRC) the Knox family did indeed say they'd spent around $2 million, I'd say it's really not very difficult to arrive at that figure by adding together total legal fees plus total experts' fees, plus total family travel/accommodation/subsistence fees. Unless you inhabit the Bizarro-World of pro-guilt idiots, that is......
I can certainly imagine the Knox family spent 2 million dollars on her defense and other expenses. But not for PR. They rented an apartment in Perugia so Amanda always had visitors. There was a rotating number of people who flew back and forth to Italy.

I don't usually visit this thread very often any more because mostly, it is one person Vixen posting nonsense that was disproven a long time ago. Some people just can't let go. Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. Time to move on.
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Old 26th August 2019, 09:45 PM   #1954
Numbers
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I seem to remember that this might have come about on account of Knox's family once saying they'd probably spent something in the region of $2 million in relation to the case.

And then (if my above recollection is correct...) one or more of the nasty, vindictive dunderheads among the pro-guilt group somehow decided to interpret this - using the cool, objective logic and reason for which they've become renowned - as the Knox family having spent $2 million on PR (aka "The PR Supertanker"). And once that myth had been seeded, the rest of the groupthink low-intellect pro-guilt herd decided not to question or challenge that (mis)interpretation, but rather to write it into their own biassed, hate-filled lexicon of the case.

To say that this is beyond stupid (as well, of course, as typically vindictive and unpleasant) is something of an understatement. Not to mention the fact that it flies in the face of what's actually known in respect of this case. And what's known is as follows:

1) David Marriott is on record as having stated that he offered his services more-or-less free to the Knox family, initially in order to provide a screen and a filter from the barrage of media requests and intrusions, but then later to provide a small amount of general advice on what kind of message to convey to the media. His work was undertaken (IIRC) on a purely personal level, and not through his PR company Gogerty Marriott.

2) Knox required vast amounts of legal representation over several years, involving a team of at least two lawyers, led by an expensive chief counsel (dalla Vedova). This representation had to cover the period from mid-November 2007, probably right through up to and including the several-month-long Massei trial in 2009; then preparation and trial in Hellmann's court (again, over several months); then preparation for the Chieffi SC panel adjudication; then preparation and trial in Nencini's court (two months); then preparation for the Marasca SC panel. The pro-guilt idiots should perhaps try to calculate what that might have added up to in total legal fees.

3) In addition, Knox's defence team hired various experts to examine the evidence and to testify in the Massei and Hellmann trials. Experts of this sort most certainly do not come cheap. Maybe the pro-guilt idiots should have a crack at estimating the total cost of these experts.

4) And on top of that, the Knox family made many trips to Italy over the years between 2007-2015. This entailed long-haul flights from Seattle to Italy, and accommodation and subsistence costs (though IIRC they were offered subsidised accommodation at some point). For some of those trips, just one family member travelled; but for many of them, as many as several family members travelled. Perhaps the pro-guilt idiots should have a go at adding up a decent estimate of total return long-haul Seattle-Italy flights taken by the Knox family over the years, together with total accommodation and subsistence costs.


So if (IIRC) the Knox family did indeed say they'd spent around $2 million, I'd say it's really not very difficult to arrive at that figure by adding together total legal fees plus total experts' fees, plus total family travel/accommodation/subsistence fees. Unless you inhabit the Bizarro-World of pro-guilt idiots, that is......
Amanda Knox's request to the ECHR for compensation suggests LondonJohn's reasoning is correct.

From the ECHR judgment Knox v. Italy:

Quote:
193. La requérante demande également 30 000 EUR pour les frais et dépens qu’elle dit avoir engagés devant la Cour ainsi que 2 186 643 EUR correspondant aux frais et dépens exposés par ses parents pour la procédure interne.
Google translation:

"193. The applicant also claims EUR 30,000 for the costs and expenses which she claims to have incurred before the Court and EUR 2,186,643 corresponding to the costs and expenses incurred by her parents for the domestic proceedings."

Using the current conversion factor (about $1.11 = EUR 1.00), the claim for costs and expenses of Knox's parents for the legal case in Italy is about $2,427,685.

Following its usual practice, the ECHR did not award any amount to cover the costs and expenses incurred for the legal case in Italy. The ECHR would view any such award, including the specific amount, as an obligation of the Italian judicial system. Furthermore, the claimed amount apparently covers all of the legal proceedings, while the ECHR in its judgment attempted to limit its considerations and award to an "equitable" amount for the specific violations, as is its practice.

If a future Italian final decision in the case did not provide Knox with an award apparently commensurate with restoring her condition to that before the legal proceedings for the calunnia and the murder/rape charges began, she would have the option of bringing a case relating to that alleged violation before the ECHR.

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Old 27th August 2019, 04:23 AM   #1955
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't usually visit this thread very often any more because mostly, it is one person Vixen posting nonsense that was disproven a long time ago. Some people just can't let go. Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. Time to move on.
Pretty much the same for me. It's interesting to check in and see what's new but not so much seeing the same old PGP lies over and over again. I am curious what Italy will do with the ECHR ruling so I will continue to lurk and occasionally post.
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:13 AM   #1956
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I can certainly imagine the Knox family spent 2 million dollars on her defense and other expenses. But not for PR. They rented an apartment in Perugia so Amanda always had visitors. There was a rotating number of people who flew back and forth to Italy.

I don't usually visit this thread very often any more because mostly, it is one person Vixen posting nonsense that was disproven a long time ago. Some people just can't let go. Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. Time to move on.
Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Pretty much the same for me. It's interesting to check in and see what's new but not so much seeing the same old PGP lies over and over again. I am curious what Italy will do with the ECHR ruling so I will continue to lurk and occasionally post.
I agree that continually revisiting the details of the case is pointless. Knox and Sollecito were rightfully finally and definitively acquitted of the murder/rape of Kercher because there was no credible evidence that they had committed the crime.

One remaining activity - and it may proceed very slowly - is the execution phase of the ECHR case Knox v. Italy regarding the violations of her rights and any further legal actions that Amanda Knox or the Italian authorities may pursue in Italy to seek revision of her conviction for calunnia and redress for her unjust detention and legal expenses.

There may also be an ECHR application pending against Italy from Raffaele Sollecito relating to the allegedly unfair denial of compensation by the Italian courts for his unjust detention and legal expenses.

For the case Knox v. Italy, the following is a summary from the Council of Europe Committee of Ministers, Department of Execution of Judgments of the ECHR:

"KNOX v. Italy
Leading | Case | 76577/13 | Pending | New Case | Judgment date: 24/01/2019 | Final judgment date: 24/06/2019

Case Description:

The case concerns the lack of an investigation into allegations of ill-treatment by the police in 2007, during the questioning of the applicant, a young woman of foreign nationality and language, subsequently convicted for malicious accusation in the context of criminal proceedings concerning the murder and rape of her flat mate (violation of Article 3 in its procedural limb).

The case also concerns the restriction on the applicant’s access to legal assistance during her questioning by the police, which the European Court found to have had irretrievably impaired the overall fairness of the proceedings (violation of Art. 6 §§ 1 and 3 c)) and the inadequate assistance provided to the applicant by an interpreter during the police questioning (violation of Art. 6 §§ 1 and 3 e)).

Status of Execution:

An action plan or report is awaited."

Source: https://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng#{%22EXECDocumentTypeCollection%22:[%22CEC%22],%22EXECState%22:[%22ITA%22],%22EXECIdentifier%22:[%22004-52517%22]}

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Old 27th August 2019, 11:10 AM   #1957
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Gioia Brocci glass on top of clothing?

I've been catching up Ron Hendry's book "When innocence doesn't matter" (a very good book so far). He says that Gioia Brocci was one of the witnesses who testified to glass being on top of clothing in Filomena's bedroom. I've been trying to source this information from various testimonies with no luck as yet. Any offers?

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Old 27th August 2019, 11:50 AM   #1958
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Originally Posted by TomG View Post
I've been catching up Ron Hendry's book "When innocence doesn't matter" (a very good book so far). He says that Gioia Brocci was one of the witnesses who testified to glass being on top of clothing in Filomena's bedroom. I've been trying to source this information from various testimonies with no luck as yet. Any offers?

Hoots
Are you sure it was Brocci Hendry mentioned? According to Hellmann, the people who testified that they saw glass both on top and below items were Filomena R, and Luca Altieri. Insp. Battistelli ("The glass was on the ground, and the curious thing that caught my eye was that this glass was also on top of the clothing…”) and Marco Zaroli said the glass was on top of clothes but did not say that it was only on top.

I can find nothing about Brocci testifying about the glass in FR's room.
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Old 27th August 2019, 12:34 PM   #1959
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Originally Posted by TomG View Post
I've been catching up Ron Hendry's book "When innocence doesn't matter" (a very good book so far). He says that Gioia Brocci was one of the witnesses who testified to glass being on top of clothing in Filomena's bedroom. I've been trying to source this information from various testimonies with no luck as yet. Any offers?

Hoots
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Are you sure it was Brocci Hendry mentioned? According to Hellmann, the people who testified that they saw glass both on top and below items were Filomena R, and Luca Altieri. Insp. Battistelli ("The glass was on the ground, and the curious thing that caught my eye was that this glass was also on top of the clothing…”) and Marco Zaroli said the glass was on top of clothes but did not say that it was only on top.

I can find nothing about Brocci testifying about the glass in FR's room.
It was Brocci (When Innocence Doesn't Matter, kindle position 1102):
Quote:
At about 3:00 PM, police begin setting out placards denoting important evidence locations in the upper flat. Among those placing the placards is Perugia Police Officer Gioia Brocchi from the documentations section. ((Officer Brocchi is worth noting at this time for the several differing threads of evidence and observations she will be able to testify to at the murder trial later on. Officer Brocchi will testify at trial that she saw glass on top of clothing in Filomena’s room. However, she will not place an evidence placard at any such location, nor will any police photos capture this observation.* The prosecution will also have Officer Brocchi provide her observation at trial that she found no indication of an intruder’s presence outside and under Filomena’s broken window. Officer Brocchi’s testimony is important to the prosecution, as there will be a decided failure to document these important observations with photos and video.))

Hendry, Ron. When Innocence Doesn't Matter: Ordeals of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito . Ron Hendry. Kindle-Version.
I haven't found that quote in her testimony so far... Maybe Hendry is mistaking Gioia Brocci for Paolo Brocchi (one of the lawyers whose office was broken into). He made some statements about clothes on top of glass in his testimony.
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.co...-Chiriboga.pdf
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:08 PM   #1960
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
It was Brocci (When Innocence Doesn't Matter, kindle position 1102):


I haven't found that quote in her testimony so far... Maybe Hendry is mistaking Gioia Brocci for Paolo Brocchi (one of the lawyers whose office was broken into). He made some statements about clothes on top of glass in his testimony.
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.co...-Chiriboga.pdf
I think you're right. From Paolo Brocchi's testimony:
Quote:
The glass clearly was spread everywhere, because it was a rather thick glass. After which, on top of these pieces of glass we found our clothes. For the most part the glass was scattered on the floor and on top of the glass were our jackets, mine and my colleague’s Palazzoli, that had been hanging on the clothes hanger in the corridor right in front of the window.
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