ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags catholicism , religious belief

Reply
Old 8th August 2012, 07:52 AM   #1
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,906
Thumbs up Decline in religious belief in Ireland

Based on the RedC poll, carried in most newspapers today, there has been a sharp drop in religious belief here over the last seven years. Now less than half the population (47%) describe themselves as "religious" as opposed to 59% in 2005.


According to the research, the Republic of Ireland is now in the top ten for the number of people declaring themselves to be "a convinced atheist".

The RCC isn't saying a lot; an earlier (Amarach) poll indicating even church members don't agree with the policies in force, e.g. 77% believe women should be ordained and 90% believe priests should be able to marry.
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2012, 08:35 AM   #2
Zelenius
Muse
 
Zelenius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 908
Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Based on the RedC poll, carried in most newspapers today, there has been a sharp drop in religious belief here over the last seven years. Now less than half the population (47%) describe themselves as "religious" as opposed to 59% in 2005.


According to the research, the Republic of Ireland is now in the top ten for the number of people declaring themselves to be "a convinced atheist".

The RCC isn't saying a lot; an earlier (Amarach) poll indicating even church members don't agree with the policies in force, e.g. 77% believe women should be ordained and 90% believe priests should be able to marry.
I am not sure if this is totally positive, since they may be trading in one set of superstitious beliefs for another set of superstitious beliefs, while becoming "less religious". The decline of organized religion often leaves a vacuum that is quickly filled with New Agey woo.

That said, it is always a positive thing when the Catholic Church loses influence in a country. It is almost like the Domino effect, in country after country(in the first world anyway), the Catholic Church has quickly faded into irrelevance, along with Christianity in general.
Zelenius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2012, 08:45 AM   #3
mikeyx
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,568
Originally Posted by Zelenius View Post
I am not sure if this is totally positive, since they may be trading in one set of superstitious beliefs for another set of superstitious beliefs, while becoming "less religious". The decline of organized religion often leaves a vacuum that is quickly filled with New Agey woo.

That said, it is always a positive thing when the Catholic Church loses influence in a country. It is almost like the Domino effect, in country after country(in the first world anyway), the Catholic Church has quickly faded into irrelevance, along with Christianity in general.
I'd allow for the possibility of celtic revivalism, and again antitheism is dully noted.
mikeyx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2012, 02:35 PM   #4
Halfcentaur
Philosopher
 
Halfcentaur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,620
Perhaps the IRA will take up worship of the Horned God once again, and perhaps Cuchulain will return, ready to let the warp spasm unleash!
Halfcentaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2012, 02:51 PM   #5
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,727
I only hope Ireland is ready for the violence and criminality so often associated with atheism's lack of a moral compass. The peace and unity of past decades will be but a happy memory. Very sad.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2012, 02:53 PM   #6
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 24,748
It is less power to one woo group. Even if the people go to several other groups each group will have far less power. They will not work together and eventually will self destruct.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2012, 07:14 PM   #7
Lowpro
Philosopher
 
Lowpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,399
How can people slowly stop believing in Ireland? It's right there on a map






__________________
"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers
Lowpro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2012, 08:03 PM   #8
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
Decline in religious belief in Ireland

I'll offer up a hypothesis:

That is because a whole lot of their priests seem to be coming across the pond.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2012, 08:03 PM   #9
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,185
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I only hope Ireland is ready for the violence and criminality so often associated with atheism's lack of a moral compass. The peace and unity of past decades will be but a happy memory. Very sad.
The republic of ireland has been fairly peaceful for the last few decades.
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2012, 08:05 PM   #10
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,940
Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Based on the RedC poll, carried in most newspapers today, there has been a sharp drop in religious belief here over the last seven years. Now less than half the population (47%) describe themselves as "religious" as opposed to 59% in 2005.


According to the research, the Republic of Ireland is now in the top ten for the number of people declaring themselves to be "a convinced atheist".

The RCC isn't saying a lot; an earlier (Amarach) poll indicating even church members don't agree with the policies in force, e.g. 77% believe women should be ordained and 90% believe priests should be able to marry.
What can I say? I remember the JP2 visit in 1979, scutting around in the mud of the Pheonix Park, trying to get a glimpse of his rolliness for the lolz. Let me tell you the interest palled rapidly. But, that was what you did, at the time. I was only ten, but had already formed the view that the RCC clergy were so out of touch with reality, that they were irrelevant, and it was bunk anyway.

Lucky me, I wasn't a victim of the RCC, but I heard lots from those who were.

This country has changed so drastically that if another papal visit occurs, I am pretty sure there will be people throwing things. I have no idea who they might be, or why they might protest. I do know that they will be justified.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2012, 07:17 AM   #11
Last of the Fraggles
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,986
Well, I'll offer a hypothesis that in reality the levels of belief haven't actually changed all that much but given the negative PR the Church has suffered in Ireland (and elsewhere) the people who were borderline but would have erred on the side of religion in their response are now tending to err the other way.
Last of the Fraggles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2012, 07:28 AM   #12
Dcdrac
Philosopher
 
Dcdrac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
If it is true I am glad, the ireland my mum and dad grew up in was a third world priest riddled place.
Dcdrac is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2012, 07:29 AM   #13
Dcdrac
Philosopher
 
Dcdrac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
There is an urban myth that when the Arch Bishop of Dublin told all good catholics to stop watching Father Ted the ratings went right through the roof
Dcdrac is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2012, 09:51 AM   #14
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,906
Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
Well, I'll offer a hypothesis that in reality the levels of belief haven't actually changed all that much but given the negative PR the Church has suffered in Ireland (and elsewhere) the people who were borderline but would have erred on the side of religion in their response are now tending to err the other way.
I believe the repudiation of the hierarchy and their authoritarian methods, caused partially by the numerous scandals, have shook things loose. People are thinking for themselves, thought this may lead them to variant religions.
It's more the scale than the change itself, which isn't that new (I remember when No Lions in the Hierarchy was shiny and controversial).

Non-belief and the acceptance of the irrelevancy of religion to life are rising.
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2012, 12:53 PM   #15
Ryokan
Insert something funny here
 
Ryokan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,072
Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
There is an urban myth that when the Arch Bishop of Dublin told all good catholics to stop watching Father Ted the ratings went right through the roof
Ryokan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2012, 09:42 PM   #16
Dog Breakfast
Critical Thinker
 
Dog Breakfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 441
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I only hope Ireland is ready for the violence and criminality so often associated with atheism's lack of a moral compass. The peace and unity of past decades will be but a happy memory. Very sad.
Careful about Poe's Law!

I'm always tempted to read more into this sort of thing than I probably should (see for example the USA Today tables illustrating the similar trend in the country from 1990 - 2008) thinking religion is in its death throes or something, but it's only seven years. I just wonder what the specific trends have been for the entire world over the past, say, 500 years. But even then, 500 years is nothing. Sigh.

Last edited by Dog Breakfast; 9th August 2012 at 09:46 PM.
Dog Breakfast is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2012, 10:05 PM   #17
Robrob
Philosopher
 
Robrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,497
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I only hope Ireland is ready for the violence and criminality so often associated with atheism's lack of a moral compass. The peace and unity of past decades will be but a happy memory. Very sad.
In your world, are there unicorns?

Feel free to provide some examples of "violence and criminality so often associated with atheism's lack of a moral compass." Please don't forget to compare them to the long term and still on going religious based violence Ireland has suffered for generations?
Robrob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2012, 10:39 PM   #18
westprog
Philosopher
 
westprog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,928
Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
In your world, are there unicorns?

Feel free to provide some examples of "violence and criminality so often associated with atheism's lack of a moral compass." Please don't forget to compare them to the long term and still on going religious based violence Ireland has suffered for generations?
The Irish Republic was one of the safest places in the world for generations. Of course, this was at a cost, including a system that took children from their parents to be sex slaves to perverts. However, the disillusion with the church has been accompanied by a massive increase in crime, violence and social disintegration.
__________________
Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.
westprog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2012, 10:52 PM   #19
Dog Breakfast
Critical Thinker
 
Dog Breakfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 441
The question is, did the disillusionment with the church cause the increase in crime, violence, and social disintegration?
Dog Breakfast is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2012, 10:59 PM   #20
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 36,622
Thanks for the links to the interesting poll.

Stats for Australia:

Code:
A religious person         37%
Not a religious person     48%
A convinced atheist        10%
Don't know/ no response    5%
Yay!


I also note that the percentage of religious in the USA in 2005 was 73% and in 2012 it is down to 60%.
The number of atheists went from 1% to 5%.

Globally, 14% of females are atheists, compared to 12% of males.
__________________
Challenge your thoughts.
Don't believe everything you think.
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2012, 11:55 PM   #21
Halfcentaur
Philosopher
 
Halfcentaur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,620
Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
In your world, are there unicorns?

Feel free to provide some examples of "violence and criminality so often associated with atheism's lack of a moral compass." Please don't forget to compare them to the long term and still on going religious based violence Ireland has suffered for generations?
If you want to see an example of a state which goes out of it's way to promote a secular system of government that simultaneously values personal liberty as much as it's secular politics, look no further than America.

Citing atheist regimes akin to Stalin's and Pol Pot's which elevated the government to godhood with dogmatic thinking and who discouraged personal liberty and open discourse is an old straw man the theists like to pull out whenever they want to go after historical examples of atheist societies, when really the United States is the most analogous to what the majority of humanist and new atheists are talking about in these now notorious discussions.

It's always a caricature of the majority that is cited, while you'll see only a very small percentile of the people taking part in these discussions who actually want to stamp out religion with force.

But if I am not mistaken, the post you're quoting was sarcastic, I am hoping and guessing.
Halfcentaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2012, 12:32 AM   #22
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,142
Everything in Ireland, including religion and atheism, is an elaborate excuse for a drink. I'll be going there again next year to partake of their one true religion.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2012, 03:14 PM   #23
westprog
Philosopher
 
westprog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,928
Originally Posted by Halfcentaur View Post
Citing atheist regimes akin to Stalin's and Pol Pot's which elevated the government to godhood with dogmatic thinking and who discouraged personal liberty and open discourse is an old straw man the theists like to pull out whenever they want to go after historical examples of atheist societies, when really the United States is the most analogous to what the majority of humanist and new atheists are talking about in these now notorious discussions.
No true atheist, eh?
__________________
Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.
westprog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2012, 01:31 AM   #24
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,523
Originally Posted by westprog View Post
The Irish Republic was one of the safest places in the world for generations.
It just made sure that Northern Ireland and the UK were not.
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

Now I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet.
If I die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake.
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2012, 01:34 AM   #25
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,523
Originally Posted by westprog View Post
No true atheist, eh?
Except that in some circumstances it really ISN'T a Scotsman.

Pol Pot and Stalin were vicious, cruel men. In fact, I can't think of a single thing Pol Pot did that wasn't absolutely awful. They were also both atheists. However they are different from, for example, the Crusades or the Inquisition or in more modern parlance the 9/11 hijackers or 7/7 bombers. They didn't brutally slaughter people for atheism or because they were atheist, they did it and also happened to be atheists.

On the other hand, the terrorist examples did it for their own perverse version of Islam, and the Crusades and Inquisition killed for Christ.

There's a huge difference between someone who kills and is part of a subset and someone who kills because they are part of a subset.
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

Now I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet.
If I die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake.
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2012, 02:31 AM   #26
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 25,263
Originally Posted by westprog View Post
The Irish Republic was one of the safest places in the world for generations.
Isn't that becasue they were busy bombing the British?

Quote:
Of course, this was at a cost, including a system that took children from their parents to be sex slaves to perverts.
I think it's a strange definition of "safe" which doesn't include children being free from institutionalised slavery and rape.

Quote:
However, the disillusion with the church has been accompanied by a massive increase in crime, violence and social disintegration.
Do you have a cite for that?
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2012, 02:50 AM   #27
Bad vibe
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 326
I'm sure there was a recent tv documentary on this that seemed to point to several causes. Younger generations disinterest in the RCC leaving a huge drop in younger people training for priesthood and older people abandoning the RCC because of the scandals and coverups involving the now head of the RCC in Ireland. I don't recall any report of increased crime or violence though.
Bad vibe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2012, 07:27 AM   #28
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,906
Originally Posted by westprog View Post
The Irish Republic was one of the safest places in the world for generations. Of course, this was at a cost, including a system that took children from their parents to be sex slaves to perverts. However, the disillusion with the church has been accompanied by a massive increase in crime, violence and social disintegration.
No. This simply isn't true.

Originally Posted by Dog Breakfast View Post
The question is, did the disillusionment with the church cause the increase in crime, violence, and social disintegration?
Or are they both perhaps, due to other factors?

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Everything in Ireland, including religion and atheism, is an elaborate excuse for a drink. I'll be going there again next year to partake of their one true religion.
Let me know when you're here. I'll see what can be done to make your visit...................memorable.

Last edited by catsmate; 11th August 2012 at 07:32 AM. Reason: Damn feline typos.
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2012, 10:02 PM   #29
westprog
Philosopher
 
westprog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,928
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Except that in some circumstances it really ISN'T a Scotsman.

Pol Pot and Stalin were vicious, cruel men. In fact, I can't think of a single thing Pol Pot did that wasn't absolutely awful. They were also both atheists. However they are different from, for example, the Crusades or the Inquisition or in more modern parlance the 9/11 hijackers or 7/7 bombers. They didn't brutally slaughter people for atheism or because they were atheist, they did it and also happened to be atheists.

On the other hand, the terrorist examples did it for their own perverse version of Islam, and the Crusades and Inquisition killed for Christ.

There's a huge difference between someone who kills and is part of a subset and someone who kills because they are part of a subset.
Pol Pot and Stalin did what they did because of their ideology and worldview, just like the terrorists or the crusaders. Their ideology happened to be atheist, and the crusaders happened not to be.

If one is determined to exonerate atheism from blame, and to place blame on theism, then I suppose it's possible, but I don't see it as soundly based.
__________________
Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.
westprog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2012, 10:04 PM   #30
westprog
Philosopher
 
westprog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,928
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Isn't that becasue they were busy bombing the British?



I think it's a strange definition of "safe" which doesn't include children being free from institutionalised slavery and rape.
If I tell you something, you can assume it's because I want you to know it.

Quote:
Do you have a cite for that?
I'm sure the Irish crime statistics are out there somewhere.
__________________
Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.
westprog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2012, 10:05 PM   #31
westprog
Philosopher
 
westprog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,928
Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
No. This simply isn't true.
Isn't it now? So Irish crime rates are what they were in the 1950's? Well, glad to hear it.
__________________
Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.
westprog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2012, 10:05 PM   #32
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 40,713
Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Based on the RedC poll, carried in most newspapers today, there has been a sharp drop in religious belief here over the last seven years. Now less than half the population (47%) describe themselves as "religious" as opposed to 59% in 2005.


According to the research, the Republic of Ireland is now in the top ten for the number of people declaring themselves to be "a convinced atheist".

The RCC isn't saying a lot; an earlier (Amarach) poll indicating even church members don't agree with the policies in force, e.g. 77% believe women should be ordained and 90% believe priests should be able to marry.
I'm making a WAG here, but it could be something to do with all the sexual abuse of children over the years that was hidden up and denied by the church.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2012, 12:17 AM   #33
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,142
Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post


Let me know when you're here. I'll see what can be done to make your visit...................memorable.
Hey, thanks. I'll be there mid March next year. Only for three or four days, and the only plans are to wander around Dublin, visit newgrange and meet our mate Fran from Drumconda who was our host last time. We had a great night at Fagin's. And another at Brazen Head. And another at..... you get the picture.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2012, 12:30 AM   #34
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 25,263
Originally Posted by westprog View Post
If I tell you something, you can assume it's because I want you to know it.
That's exactly what I do assume. Can you answer the questions I asked you, though?

Quote:
I'm sure the Irish crime statistics are out there somewhere.
Then you should have no problem whatsoever backing up your assertion.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2012, 07:56 AM   #35
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,906
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Hey, thanks. I'll be there mid March next year. Only for three or four days, and the only plans are to wander around Dublin, visit newgrange and meet our mate Fran from Drumconda who was our host last time. We had a great night at Fagin's. And another at Brazen Head. And another at..... you get the picture.
Excellent, we're not too far from Drumcondra, nearer the airport. See you next near.
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2012, 08:07 AM   #36
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,906
Originally Posted by westprog View Post
Isn't it now? So Irish crime rates are what they were in the 1950's? Well, glad to hear it.
And what has that got to do with your claim:
Quote:
However, the disillusion with the church has been accompanied by a massive increase in crime, violence and social disintegration.
which directly linked your (claimed) social disintegration with disillusionment with the RCC.
Perhaps you should support your claims?
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2012, 01:01 PM   #37
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,940
Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
And what has that got to do with your claim:

which directly linked your (claimed) social disintegration with disillusionment with the RCC.
Perhaps you should support your claims?
Is westprog Irish? I have lived all my life in Dublin, and I can say for sure, crime was a lot worse in the 80s/early 90s.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2012, 03:49 PM   #38
westprog
Philosopher
 
westprog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,928
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's exactly what I do assume. Can you answer the questions I asked you, though?
What do you expect me to say that I didn't already point out? There used to be far less crime in Ireland a generation ago. People were far less likely to be attacked or robbed. On the other hand, there was terrible institutional abuse. So if you want to quibble about definitions, go ahead. It doesn't change anything substantial.
__________________
Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.
westprog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2012, 04:39 PM   #39
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,582
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I only hope Ireland is ready for the violence and criminality so often associated with atheism's lack of a moral compass. The peace and unity of past decades will be but a happy memory. Very sad.
I'm guessing you refer to the love fests held frequently by the orange lads and the green boyos. Lovely bit o' kneecapping, bombing, tommygunning. Yep a loss of religion could certainly make'em go for the old violence again!! OH, WAIT - that's what they had with the religion.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2012, 04:41 PM   #40
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,582
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What can I say? I remember the JP2 visit in 1979, scutting around in the mud of the Pheonix Park, trying to get a glimpse of his rolliness for the lolz. Let me tell you the interest palled rapidly. But, that was what you did, at the time. I was only ten, but had already formed the view that the RCC clergy were so out of touch with reality, that they were irrelevant, and it was bunk anyway.

Lucky me, I wasn't a victim of the RCC, but I heard lots from those who were.

This country has changed so drastically that if another papal visit occurs, I am pretty sure there will be people throwing things. I have no idea who they might be, or why they might protest. I do know that they will be justified.
If not the RCC, what say to the RUCs?
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:42 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.