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Old 10th August 2013, 11:51 AM   #7721
Rrose Selavy
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
Just going over that thread again and I can't help but notice the bizarre logic going on there.
Apparently Schermer's a scumbag for hiring a lawyer to defend himself against rape allegations.
What's an innocent person supposed to do if they've been falsely accused, in that situation?

I'm not saying that he is innocent, by the way. I have no idea, either way.
Just for clarity , that's allegedly Krauss not Shermer who used his "class privilege" to supposedly threaten legal action.
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Old 10th August 2013, 11:53 AM   #7722
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
Just for clarity , that's allegedly Krauss not Shermer who used his "class privilege" to supposedly threaten legal action.
You're right. I lost track of the accusations that were being slung about in there.
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Old 10th August 2013, 12:59 PM   #7723
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A bit of sanity over at FtB from Maryam Namazie

http://freethoughtblogs.com/maryamna...9/report-them/

Of course she is already being attacked by some in the comments and one wonders just how long she will still be welcome over there.
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Last edited by bedlin88; 10th August 2013 at 01:00 PM. Reason: grammer
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Old 10th August 2013, 01:11 PM   #7724
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
JWhat's an innocent person supposed to do if they've been falsely accused, in that situation?
An innocent person would not find themselves being accused by a ******* RAPE VICTIM! Q.E.D.
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Old 10th August 2013, 01:18 PM   #7725
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Originally Posted by bedlin88 View Post
A bit of sanity over at FtB from Maryam Namazie

http://freethoughtblogs.com/maryamna...9/report-them/

Of course she is already being attacked by some in the comments and one wonders just how long she will still be welcome over there.
Possibly, but Ally Fogg has been holding out pretty well. Frankly I really like his approach, although of course I often still disagree with him.

The thing I like best about his blog is that in the comments there, you actually find dialogue of some sort occurring between representatives of the most extreme parts of the Great Divide. Sometimes, it's close to actual communication taking place!
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Old 10th August 2013, 01:46 PM   #7726
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
Just for clarity , that's allegedly Krauss not Shermer who used his "class privilege" to supposedly threaten legal action.
Here's a nice summary of all the recent revelations and accusations.

Quote:
Jen McCreight at BlagHag has reported — among other things — that “When women come to me to warn me about what speakers to avoid at conferences or confide in me sexual harassment they’ve experienced, Lawrence Krauss is by far the most common name I hear.” She has also reported that Ron Lindsay, president and CEO of CFI, knew about this — because she’s the one who told him, at the first Women in Secularism conference in March May 2012. Before the cruise that was discussed by Ed Cara. (CORRECTION: Women in Secularism 1 was in May 2012, not March; the CFI cruise in question was in May 2011, after and not before before and not after Women in Secularism 1.)
Hard to really take anything back once it's out there.
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Old 10th August 2013, 01:48 PM   #7727
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Originally Posted by bedlin88 View Post
A bit of sanity over at FtB from Maryam Namazie

http://freethoughtblogs.com/maryamna...9/report-them/

Of course she is already being attacked by some in the comments and one wonders just how long she will still be welcome over there.
Apparently it's "irresponsible" to recommend that victims of assault and harassment should report them to the police. While posting anonymous allegations against people is not.
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Old 10th August 2013, 05:36 PM   #7728
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
How long have you been able to mind meld with PZ?
Not near as long as you've been trolling this thread.
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Old 10th August 2013, 09:51 PM   #7729
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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
Well, I suppose it was bound to happen. Setar and ceepolk have been screaming "Burn the Witch" at everyone to the point there's no one left, so eventually the only thing either of them had, was to start seeing if one another weighed the same as a duck.

Didn't see it coming down on that subject, to be honest. ceepolk never fails to amaze.
Things ought to get interesting in the sooper sekret forums. Setar's their self-appointed Political Commissar and Ceepolk's.... well, by xer's standards, a demi-god.

I was watching the thread, having no idea that someone would pull an Anti-Godwin (the first person who nails someone for comparing a hangnail to the Holocaust or Hiroshima WINS) and I honestly reckoned it had come time for them to take Serene down. He/She has been making far too many reasonable statements! And when I saw the criticism of Setar, I thought, "Hmmm, this could get interesting...". Little did I imagine that the long tall brown-skin gal was going to come in and make the self-appointed/anointed A+ Political Commissar lay his prayer book down*.

Usually, they let the fur fly a bit. Ya think they're worried that two of their holy of holies will go at it and they'll have to ban one?

*before any of my paleo conservative fans show up and accuse me of racism, that's an allusion to an old song. "It Takes A Long Tall Brown-Skin Gal To Make A Preacher Lay His Prayer Book Down".
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Old 10th August 2013, 10:10 PM   #7730
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Extra ! Extra ! Read All About It !!!!

Setar outed as racist, Ceepolk throws a wobbler and locks thread

Details inside, 10 cents please
I was always of the opinion that rape culture, at least in the West, does not exist. I mean sure, rapes happen. But they are considered a serious crime and are severely punished, hence I thought that the term was redundant.

Turns out that if someone is accused anonymously of raping someone then any attempts to get both sides of the story are rape culture! Now I see that rape culture really does exist, especially in our justice system! So does murder culture, theft culture, fraud culture, assault culture, parking violation culture...
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Old 10th August 2013, 10:14 PM   #7731
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Things ought to get interesting in the sooper sekret forums. Setar's their self-appointed Political Commissar and Ceepolk's.... well, by xer's standards, a demi-god.

I was watching the thread, having no idea that someone would pull an Anti-Godwin (the first person who nails someone for comparing a hangnail to the Holocaust or Hiroshima WINS) and I honestly reckoned it had come time for them to take Serene down. He/She has been making far too many reasonable statements! And when I saw the criticism of Setar, I thought, "Hmmm, this could get interesting...". Little did I imagine that the long tall brown-skin gal was going to come in and make the self-appointed/anointed A+ Political Commissar lay his prayer book down*.

Usually, they let the fur fly a bit. Ya think they're worried that two of their holy of holies will go at it and they'll have to ban one?

*before any of my paleo conservative fans show up and accuse me of racism, that's an allusion to an old song. "It Takes A Long Tall Brown-Skin Gal To Make A Preacher Lay His Prayer Book Down".
That song refers to a joke that was made about BLACK PEOPLE after JIM CROW and so it is NOT APPROPRIATE to EVER DARE to use it so OFFENSIVELY aGAIN!

It's really amazing isn't it?
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Old 10th August 2013, 10:16 PM   #7732
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Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
I was always of the opinion that rape culture, at least in the West, does not exist. I mean sure, rapes happen. But they are considered a serious crime and are severely punished, hence I thought that the term was redundant.

Turns out that if someone is accused anonymously of raping someone then any attempts to get both sides of the story are rape culture! Now I see that rape culture really does exist, especially in our justice system! So does murder culture, theft culture, fraud culture, assault culture, parking violation culture...
Well, let's see . . . the expression "**** you" clearly refers to sex as punishment, and it's hard to imagine that it's intended as consensual punishment, so "*** you" is kinda rape-culturish. That's why enlightened sites such as A+ or FTB absolutely forbid any such language, right?
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Old 10th August 2013, 10:32 PM   #7733
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Extra ! Extra ! Read All About It !!!!

Setar outed as racist, Ceepolk throws a wobbler and locks thread

Details inside, 10 cents please
That thread is far juicier than you said. Protecting your reputation doesn't matter when the possibly defamatory claims thrown at you are about rape/sexual assault/sexual harassment.

Also the word "flaming" is a mildly homophobic slur.

Originally Posted by bedlin88 View Post
A bit of sanity over at FtB from Maryam Namazie

http://freethoughtblogs.com/maryamna...9/report-them/

Of course she is already being attacked by some in the comments and one wonders just how long she will still be welcome over there.
Those commenters are stupid. There's one person there who is complaining about rape kits. Because collecting evidence is bad.

These people scare me, since these people seem to be ones who would prefer the justice system to use a "preponderance of evidence" as a standard instead of "beyond reasonable doubt" when dealing with these kind of things.

Justicar makes some good points about the "police suck at this sort of thing" point in her post.
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Old 10th August 2013, 10:35 PM   #7734
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Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
That song refers to a joke that was made about BLACK PEOPLE after JIM CROW and so it is NOT APPROPRIATE to EVER DARE to use it so OFFENSIVELY aGAIN!

It's really amazing isn't it?
Bu... bu... I have a brown-skinned child. How dare you criticize someone of the 3rd world with your colonial-imperialistic heritage.
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Old 11th August 2013, 12:38 AM   #7735
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Bu... bu... I have a brown-skinned child. How dare you criticize someone of the 3rd world with your colonial-imperialistic heritage.
Yeah but your brown skinned child is really cute, so that doesn't count.

So I've joined FTBs. We'll see how long it takes my attempts to be reasonable to be noticed. I think I've been pretty reasonable so far, but I am drawing some flies.
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Old 11th August 2013, 01:26 AM   #7736
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So I've joined FTBs. We'll see how long it takes my attempts to be reasonable to be noticed. I think I've been pretty reasonable so far, but I am drawing some flies.
Good luck. Try not to drink the Cool-Aid while you're there.
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Old 11th August 2013, 03:35 AM   #7737
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
Just going over that thread again and I can't help but notice the bizarre logic going on there.
Apparently Schermer's a scumbag for hiring a lawyer to defend himself against rape allegations.
What's an innocent person supposed to do if they've been falsely accused, in that situation?

I'm not saying that he is innocent, by the way. I have no idea, either way.
Well, if you read the thread you'll see that SubMor described him as an "abuser", and his accusor as a "victim". So SubMor's obviously decided that he's guilty. Therefore he is guilty. Therefore what he'd do if he was innocent doesn't matter, because he's not.

See?
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Old 11th August 2013, 09:42 AM   #7738
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Originally Posted by bedlin88 View Post
A bit of sanity over at FtB from Maryam Namazie

http://freethoughtblogs.com/maryamna...9/report-them/

Of course she is already being attacked by some in the comments and one wonders just how long she will still be welcome over there.
I have a lot of respect for Maryam Namazie. She's a bit of an odd fit for FTB as she isn't the white upper-middle-class collegiate that makes up most of their roster and she actually, you know, campaigns for free thought instead of soliciting donations for shoes and things.

It won't be surprising to see her ousted, I mean she's already been described as a "rape culture apologist" for suggesting that criminal acts ought to be reported to criminal investigators.

Is there any other crime that this applies to? If somebody had their car stolen would somebody suggesting the victim report it to the police be shouted down because the police are traditionally bad at investigating stolen cars?
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Old 11th August 2013, 09:54 AM   #7739
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Back on the subject of "rape culture", somebody posted this comment on Maryam's blog:

"Rape Culture is rooted in victim blaming. “She’s asking for it”, when a women wears a figure flattering dress or a short skirt. “She owes me” when she accepts a free drink or a walk home. “No means yes”, when she has been with other men. "

None of these things are in any way viable legal excuses for rape. If rape culture as defined existed then these things may be considered legal grounds for exoneration.
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Old 11th August 2013, 12:34 PM   #7740
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Help, I need a translation:
Quote:
114

John Phillips, FCD
August 11, 2013 at 9:47 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
ginger, even if we do have things in common as atheists, I would rather not have you ‘sharing the barricades’ with me as I’m fussy who I associate with.
The exchange starts with post 103.

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Old 11th August 2013, 01:01 PM   #7741
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Help, I need a translation:

The exchange starts with post 103.

He's saying you have anti-feminism cooties.
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Old 11th August 2013, 01:02 PM   #7742
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Help, I need a translation:

The exchange starts with post 103.

It means you should check your privilege and stop gingersplaining.

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Old 11th August 2013, 01:24 PM   #7743
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He's clearly indicating that you're a Suppressive Person.
You're in desperate need of Auditing.
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Old 11th August 2013, 01:29 PM   #7744
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So I've joined FTBs. We'll see how long it takes my attempts to be reasonable to be noticed. I think I've been pretty reasonable so far, but I am drawing some flies.
I'm putting ten dollars on 48 hours after your first comment before you're banned. This betting pool is now OPEN! Only whole numbers of hours allowed.
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Old 11th August 2013, 01:34 PM   #7745
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OK, the over/under is 48 hours after the first comment. I'll take the over, but not far over; 60 hours.
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Old 11th August 2013, 01:45 PM   #7746
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Originally Posted by Lorentz View Post
I'm putting ten dollars on 48 hours after your first comment before you're banned. This betting pool is now OPEN! Only whole numbers of hours allowed.
When you go over to comment on one of PeeZee's posts and get called a "cupcake" with added foul-mouthed vitriol by a certain person , then you know you have both arrived and are on the way out, as the others pile in.
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Old 11th August 2013, 01:57 PM   #7747
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
When you go over to comment on one of PeeZee's posts and get called a "cupcake" with added foul-mouthed vitriol by a certain person , then you know you have both arrived and are on the way out, as the others pile in.
A few years ago I'd often read Pharyngula, but even then I'd steer well clear of the comments. Those were - and probably still are - so toxic and bereft of reason, that in more than a few instances they made me feel physically nauseous.
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Old 11th August 2013, 02:21 PM   #7748
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Originally Posted by Lorentz View Post
A few years ago I'd often read Pharyngula, but even then I'd steer well clear of the comments. Those were - and probably still are - so toxic and bereft of reason, that in more than a few instances they made me feel physically nauseous.
Some of the locker rooms I've been in would probably kill you outright.
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Old 11th August 2013, 02:23 PM   #7749
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Some of the locker rooms I've been in would probably kill you outright.
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Old 11th August 2013, 02:59 PM   #7750
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Help, I need a translation:

The exchange starts with post 103.

Revolution in the revolution. He's comparing the feminist battle with the French Revolution and saying that he'll stand behind the barricades over on the other side with his comrades and you should stand over here with yours. Or, as kellyb put it, you've got social justice cooties. No one criticizes The Watson or The Myers on FTB comments! It's just not done.
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Old 11th August 2013, 05:12 PM   #7751
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Turnabout is fair play.

http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5179

We've been predicting their demise since they started. They're now reading entrails to predict the collapse of the JREF over the latest kerfuffle.
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Old 11th August 2013, 05:52 PM   #7752
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Extra ! Extra ! Read All About It !!!!

Setar outed as racist, Ceepolk throws a wobbler and locks thread

Details inside, 10 cents please
You're charging for this? Information wants to be free!!! Moneyist!!!
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Old 11th August 2013, 06:40 PM   #7753
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How much was Robert Lancaster subjected to after he posed for the skepdudes calendar?
I only just saw this.

Let's see, though:

Counting Susan?

None.
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Old 11th August 2013, 06:51 PM   #7754
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Originally Posted by RSLancastr View Post
I only just saw this.

Let's see, though:

Counting Susan?

None.
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Old 11th August 2013, 11:31 PM   #7755
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We have three threads overlapping this latest kerfuffle.

PZ's grenade.
WOW. Just when I thought PZ couldn't go any lower! Are we just supposed to believe this because PZ is such a reliable source of information? Or maybe it's his unbeatable ethics! I couldn't even finish reading the article, I was so disgusted. What was it Chris Hitchens said? "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

Trolling people is one thing. Acccusing somebody of rape is a whole other ballgame, and you shouldn't do it unless you are damn sure! WTF. Is there nothing these people won't stoop to?!?
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Old 11th August 2013, 11:31 PM   #7756
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
What's an innocent person supposed to do if they've been falsely accused, in that situation?
Speak, don't silence. A defamation suit is not the proper response to someone who may be honestly mistaken or have a difference of opinion. It is only the proper response to someone who is maliciously lying about you and thereby materially damaging your reputation. Threatening to sue somebody is often used to shut that person up without regard to whether a statement actually comes close to defamation.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I was watching the thread, having no idea that someone would pull an Anti-Godwin (the first person who nails someone for comparing a hangnail to the Holocaust or Hiroshima WINS) and I honestly reckoned it had come time for them to take Serene down
I don't perceive FrogSaga as trying to WIN the thread, nor was I, which was why I placed my comment in hidden-text and labeled it a derail.

Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
None of these things are in any way viable legal excuses for rape. If rape culture as defined existed then these things may be considered legal grounds for exoneration.
Requiring a de jure defense seems like an unreasonable standard for me in the context of de facto barriers to prosecution. If police won't investigate, prosecutors won't file charges or juries won't convict, the lack of actual statutory language is irrelevant.
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Old 12th August 2013, 01:21 AM   #7757
squealpiggy
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Originally Posted by qwints View Post
Speak, don't silence. A defamation suit is not the proper response to someone who may be honestly mistaken or have a difference of opinion.
It is the proper response to someone defaming you.

Quote:
Requiring a de jure defense seems like an unreasonable standard for me in the context of de facto barriers to prosecution. If police won't investigate, prosecutors won't file charges or juries won't convict, the lack of actual statutory language is irrelevant.
Police do investigate rape cases, prosecutors do file charges and juries do convict. On the other hand police generally do not investigate bicycle thefts. They take reports but they don't really do anything to catch a thief of a single bicycle.

Does this mean we live in a bicycle theft culture?
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Old 12th August 2013, 02:42 AM   #7758
Lorentz
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Turnabout is fair play.
One line struck my funny bone:
Quote:
I really wonder what will happen to JREF when Randi dies. How much control does he exert over the organization? How much of its libertarian philosophy is Randi's own?
You're all libertarians? I'm shocked how well most of you have been able to hide this from me up to this point!
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Old 12th August 2013, 04:17 AM   #7759
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
Just going over that thread again and I can't help but notice the bizarre logic going on there.
Apparently Schermer's a scumbag for hiring a lawyer to defend himself against rape allegations.
What's an innocent person supposed to do if they've been falsely accused, in that situation?

I'm not saying that he is innocent, by the way. I have no idea, either way.
As a man he can't possibly be innocent. So no problem there. Because privilege.
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Old 12th August 2013, 04:31 AM   #7760
Dissolution
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Originally Posted by qwints View Post
Speak, don't silence. A defamation suit is not the proper response to someone who may be honestly mistaken or have a difference of opinion. It is only the proper response to someone who is maliciously lying about you and thereby materially damaging your reputation. Threatening to sue somebody is often used to shut that person up without regard to whether a statement actually comes close to defamation.
I'm not surprised that he wants to shut up people making third-hand accusations from anonymous victims of his supposedly predatory sexual advances.
Being lumped in with people that are being accused of rape is just an extra reason to take it in that direction.

How can he speak out against unidentified accusers? It's going to carry absolutely no weight.
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