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Tags Australia elections , Australia politics , Julie Bishop , Malcolm Turnbull , Peter Dutton , Scott Morrison

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Old 21st August 2019, 07:38 PM   #1601
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He was also instrumental in bringing the National Firearms Agreement to the rural population, who were otherwise dead set against it. That's really the only thing I remember about him. He was kind of before I started paying attention.
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:57 PM   #1602
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
He was also instrumental in bringing the National Firearms Agreement to the rural population, who were otherwise dead set against it. That's really the only thing I remember about him. He was kind of before I started paying attention.
Yes, that’s true. He was really playing good deputy to Howard, but the result is what matters I suppose.
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:11 PM   #1603
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And, it has to be said, he was deputy to John Howard, so...
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:59 PM   #1604
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He was a Vietnam vet. Apparently his not-so-pretty experiences there made him fully in favour of the NFA and buyback scheme. Can't fault him for that.

He attributed his rapid illness to exposure to Agent Orange. Again, I would not wish that on anyone.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:09 AM   #1605
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Security blunder as Queensland premier's office publishes name of Asio agent



Quote:
Exclusive: accidental release of intelligence operative’s name in Annastacia Palaszczuk’s diaries blamed on ‘administrative error’

The Queensland premier’s office has mistakenly published the name of a secret intelligence operative in an extraordinary national security breach potentially punishable by up to 10 years’ imprisonment.

The name of the Australian Security and Intelligence Organisation (Asio) agent was accidentally published during the routine public release of Annastacia Palaszczuk’s diaries, a practice designed to boost government transparency.

One of Palaszczuk’s diaries included details of a meeting between intelligence officials – including the Asio director general, Duncan Lewis – and the premier, police minister, and the Queensland police commissioner.

The diary entry names a second Asio agent, who the Guardian will not identify, and lists his position within the organisation.
This... is very bad. An administrative error???
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:26 AM   #1606
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Governments are full of those.

What many people think is that all government workers are perfectly-working automatons who never deviate from their programmed activity and thus cannot make (these sorts of) mistakes. The reality is, as we know, that government workers are just as human and prone to mistakes as everyone else.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:34 AM   #1607
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Governments are full of those.

What many people think is that all government workers are perfectly-working automatons who never deviate from their programmed activity and thus cannot make (these sorts of) mistakes. The reality is, as we know, that government workers are just as human and prone to mistakes as everyone else.
Right, but releasing the name and position of an ASIO agent isn't just your regular kind of mistake. This is the kind of mistake that can result in 10 years' imprisonment.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:55 AM   #1608
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On the positive, “the practice designed to boost government transparency” scores 100%.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 08:54 PM   #1609
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Governments are full of those.

What many people think is that all government workers are perfectly-working automatons who never deviate from their programmed activity and thus cannot make (these sorts of) mistakes. The reality is, as we know, that government workers are just as human and prone to mistakes as everyone else.
I think, at a minimum, several people should lose their jobs over this.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:33 PM   #1610
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I think, at a minimum, several people should lose their jobs over this.
Several people should go to jail over this.

ETA: But they probably won't.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:10 PM   #1611
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I think, at a minimum, several people should lose their jobs over this.
Annastacia Palaszczuk was negligent for not vetting the info in her diary before clearing it for release.

Of course, if anybody loses their job, it will be a lowly clerk while Anna sails on unaffected.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:52 PM   #1612
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I think, at a minimum, several people should lose their jobs over this.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Several people should go to jail over this.

ETA: But they probably won't.
I agree. They will get promoted sideways.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:58 PM   #1613
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Worst part is that the outed agent now needs a new name and a new address and a new job and probably won't be able to work for ASIO ever again. That person and their family have friends who are never going to see them again, and they're not even allowed to know why.
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Old 26th August 2019, 11:43 PM   #1614
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Are our politicians finally getting serious about fixing Question Time?

Quote:
"I really envy your Question Time," Barack Obama told Julia Gillard the first time they met.

Proof, perhaps, that the grass is always greener — even the mottled eucalyptus of the House of Representatives.

Ms Gillard, recounting the conversation years later, revealed she had reflexively asked the then-president if he was "mad", before explaining why many Australians did not share his admiration for the farcical slanging match that dominates sitting days in Canberra.

"He had the good grace at the end of the conversation to say, 'I am mad! That sounds dreadful'," she said.

Defenders of Question Time point out that the Westminster tradition is one of the only systems in the world that subjects ministers, the wielders of executive power, to regular public questioning.

Since regular broadcasts began in 1989 it has brought Parliament's most ferocious debates into the lounge rooms of voters, and produced some of the most famous witticisms in Australian political history.

But parliamentarians are hearing a consistent message from their constituents, and the schoolkids who tour Parliament: Question Time is an embarrassing spectacle that shows partisan politics at its worst.
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Old 27th August 2019, 01:13 AM   #1615
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Are our politicians finally getting serious about fixing Question Time?
Quote:
Since regular broadcasts began in 1989 . . .
Actually Parliamentary broadcasts commence on 10 July 1946 and from the very beginning of the broadcasts, listeners were disgusted with the way their elected representatives conducted themselves in Parliament.
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Old 27th August 2019, 01:17 AM   #1616
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The article suggests that there are no good answers. Just like democracy, the only good thing about it is that it is better than all the other systems.

I have been to question time several times and agree that the MPs behave badly. The Government MPs know that it is highly unlikely they will be disciplined for any minor breaches of the rules. They also want to avoid self examination, so instead of saying how good they are, they say how bad the opposition is.

Should be compulsory viewing. Then letters written to the badly behaved MPs.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 03:12 PM   #1617
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Be interesting, but troublesome, to see what materialises with the push by the religious to enshrine in law their "Lets have the right to give **** to homosexuals and other non God fearing weirdos" bill.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...-test/11466242

Quote:
Folau would have a case
It says you can't be seen to discriminate against someone merely for expressing a genuinely held belief.
In the ubiquitous case of Israel Folau (who was sacked by the Australian Rugby Union for saying on social media that drunks, homosexuals, fornicators and others would go to hell), according to Mr Porter, the bill would "give someone in Israel Folau's circumstance an avenue for complaint" he told 7.30 on Thursday.
And we thought we could snigger at the dudes in the USA with their "God Hates Fags" placards. We might see them here if this bill goes through.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 04:34 PM   #1618
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Be interesting, but troublesome, to see what materialises with the push by the religious to enshrine in law their "Lets have the right to give **** to homosexuals and other non God fearing weirdos" bill.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...-test/11466242



And we thought we could snigger at the dudes in the USA with their "God Hates Fags" placards. We might see them here if this bill goes through.

A pro sports celeb in the US might run into some problems if they were to spend much (or any) time in public waving such a placard.

It would depend largely on their employer, since free speech protections often lose to employment contracts, especially for very visible employees.


Regular folks on the street, not so much.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 08:12 PM   #1619
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Folau is a "public figure", inasmuch as he had a major contract with Rugby Union and was a "football star". That changes his position about what he says out loud in public.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 08:34 PM   #1620
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Folau is a "public figure", inasmuch as he had a major contract with Rugby Union and was a "football star". That changes his position about what he says out loud in public.
The more important consideration is that the Rugby Union has a Code of Conduct which includes a clause that says that you're not allowed to tell people that they're going to hell (more or less). He was in breach of the Code and therefore in breach of his contract.

The religious discrimination I mean freedom bill will make it illegal to include a clause like that. It will make it legal - in fact, protected - to insult and vilify people as long as it is your sincere religious conviction that they are subhuman.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 08:36 PM   #1621
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And once again, First Dog nails it. Because of course he does.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 09:37 PM   #1622
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Be interesting, but troublesome, to see what materialises with the push by the religious to enshrine in law their "Lets have the right to give **** to homosexuals and other non God fearing weirdos" bill.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...-test/11466242

Quote:
Folau would have a case
It says you can't be seen to discriminate against someone merely for expressing a genuinely held belief.
In the ubiquitous case of Israel Folau (who was sacked by the Australian Rugby Union for saying on social media that drunks, homosexuals, fornicators and others would go to hell), according to Mr Porter, the bill would "give someone in Israel Folau's circumstance an avenue for complaint" he told 7.30 on Thursday.
And we thought we could snigger at the dudes in the USA with their "God Hates Fags" placards. We might see them here if this bill goes through.
The article continues:
Quote:
"That complaint would look like this: My employer puts a condition upon me which has the effect of restricting my ability to express my religious beliefs in my spare time.

"And what this bill says is that if a large employer with a turnover of over $50 million did that, not merely would they have to show that broad condition on the employee is reasonable, but they would have to show that unless that condition were complied with, that they, the business, would suffer undue financial hardship."
Funny how a bit of context changes everything.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 11:23 PM   #1623
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The problem here is that "expressing my religious beliefs" is in this case a euphemism for insulting and vilifying people. If he had expressed his religious beliefs by saying that Jesus rose on the third day, or that the meek are blessed, or even that people should honour their mother and father, that wouldn't have been a problem.

But no, the particular religious belief he expressed is that gay people are going to hell. And that is directly and personally insulting towards millions of Australians, many of whom may - up until this point- have been his fans.

I work under a code of conduct that says that I can't tell my callers that they are useless idiots who couldn't use a computer to save their lives. Even if that is true, I'm not allowed to say it, and if I do I may be subject to disciplinary action, up to and including losing my job.

Same thing.
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Old 2nd September 2019, 11:47 PM   #1624
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The problem here is that "expressing my religious beliefs" is in this case a euphemism for insulting and vilifying people. If he had expressed his religious beliefs by saying that Jesus rose on the third day, or that the meek are blessed, or even that people should honour their mother and father, that wouldn't have been a problem.

But no, the particular religious belief he expressed is that gay people are going to hell. And that is directly and personally insulting towards millions of Australians, many of whom may - up until this point- have been his fans.
And you don't think that legislating which parts of the bible may be quoted publicly violates s116 of the Constitution?

Let's face it. This bill is nowhere near as radical as was predicted. It even allows employers to ditch an employee who's religious views are costing them money. AFAIK there is no similar provision in the sex or race discrimination acts.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I work under a code of conduct that says that I can't tell my callers that they are useless idiots who couldn't use a computer to save their lives. Even if that is true, I'm not allowed to say it, and if I do I may be subject to disciplinary action, up to and including losing my job.

Same Different thing.
ftfy.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 12:12 AM   #1625
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And you don't think that legislating which parts of the bible may be quoted publicly violates s116 of the Constitution?
When the Bible becomes hate speech, s116 doesn't apply.

In what way was my example different?
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Old 3rd September 2019, 12:33 AM   #1626
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
When the Bible becomes hate speech, s116 doesn't apply.


Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
In what way was my example different?
Nobody expects an employee to be allowed to proselytize instead of working while on the clock.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 01:23 AM   #1627
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Nobody expects an employee to be allowed to proselytize instead of working while on the clock.
But I'm not even allowed to call them idiots while I'm not working. If I happen to meet someone at the pub after work, I can't call them an idiot without facing disciplinary action.

Selected excerpt:
Quote:
  • at all times behave in a way that upholds the APS Values and Employment Principles, and the integrity and good reputation of the employee's Agency and the APS;
https://www.apsc.gov.au/code-conduct

At all times. Not just while at work. At all times. This is the clause that Folau violated.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:33 AM   #1628
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
But I'm not even allowed to call them idiots while I'm not working.
Where has that goal post gone? I'm sure it was here somewhere.
"while I'm not working" Ah! there's where it got to.

Yes, anything an employee does (on or off the clock) that brings the business into disrepute or otherwise costs it money is grounds for dismissal. This religious bill doesn't change that.

Of course, I believe that there is nothing wrong about somebody anonymously posting bad things about their employer or customers if they are not named. But some people here think otherwise. They would argue that the person should be outed, dobbed in to their employer and sacked!
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:43 AM   #1629
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So, if I was an employer and an employee was using his high public profile due to my company to campaign for men to be allowed to have sex with nine-year old girls and I said "stop it or I will have to terminate your contract" then I would be breaking the law?
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:46 AM   #1630
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... unless I could prove it was costing me money
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Old 3rd September 2019, 09:50 AM   #1631
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So, if I was an employer and an employee was using his high public profile due to my company to campaign for men to be allowed to have sex with nine-year old girls and I said "stop it or I will have to terminate your contract" then I would be breaking the law?
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
... unless I could prove it was costing me money
I'm pretty sure that such a campaign would cost you business.

Note that I haven't studied in detail either the Federal or State acts re discrimination so there could be any number of loopholes that I am unaware of that might trap an employer or employee.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 04:01 PM   #1632
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Folau is a "public figure", inasmuch as he had a major contract with Rugby Union and was a "football star". That changes his position about what he says out loud in public.

For reasons I find hard to fathom the opinion of celebrities is considered more important than that of say Joe Blogs down the road. Even when shown with eyes raised stupidly toward the sky, (Scomo has a similar look.), it is assumed that he, Folau, has some special incite, because of his elevated public persona.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 06:45 PM   #1633
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Where has that goal post gone? I'm sure it was here somewhere.
"while I'm not working" Ah! there's where it got to.

Yes, anything an employee does (on or off the clock) that brings the business into disrepute or otherwise costs it money is grounds for dismissal. This religious bill doesn't change that.
Yeah it does. It permits someone to insult and vilify people by engaging in hate speech, as long as it is done because of someone's sincere religious conviction. In fact, it protects that hate speech for the sole reason that it is religious. It says that hate speech isn't hate speech when it's done for religious reasons, and that discrimination isn't discrimination when it's done for religious reasons. It enshrines in law the right of religious people to both engage in hate speech without consequence, and to actively discriminate against people on the basis of their gender or sexuality.

Imagine if, rather than saying that it is his sincerely held religious conviction that gay people were going to hell, Folau had said that it is his sincerely held religious conviction that women were inherently inferior to men and shouldn't be allowed to hold public office or vote. Or if he had said that it was his sincerely held religious conviction that black people were subhuman and it should be legal to own them. Would that kind of speech be protected under this bill? Because not so very long ago, people were making exactly those statements.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Of course, I believe that there is nothing wrong about somebody anonymously posting bad things about their employer or customers if they are not named. But some people here think otherwise. They would argue that the person should be outed, dobbed in to their employer and sacked!
Believe it or not, I agree with you. But if I accept that Rugby Australia can discipline Folau over speech that brings the organisation into disrepute, I also have to accept that my employer can discipline me over speech that brings the government into disrepute. Because they're the same thing.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 06:51 PM   #1634
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Meanwhile, Australia's economy has just slowed to a decade low

Quote:
Australia's economy has slowed to its most sluggish pace since 2009, when the GFC slammed the brakes on GDP growth.

In seasonally adjusted terms, GDP expanded by 0.5 per cent over the June quarter, or 1.4 per cent for the year — equal to the worst annual growth recorded in the aftermath of the global financial crisis in the September quarter of 2009.

You have to go back to the period after the GST was introduced in the year 2000 to find a worse result.
Worst economy since the GFC. Thanks Scott. Thanks Josh.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:38 PM   #1635
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah it does. It permits someone to insult and vilify people by engaging in hate speech, as long as it is done because of someone's sincere religious conviction.
What a ridiculous tangent!

It has never been unlawful to publicly quote parts of the bible that you don't like. No government would ever make such a law and the constitution wouldn't allow it anyway.

This bill simply puts religious discrimination on a similar basis to sex or race discrimination laws.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 07:43 PM   #1636
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I'm pretty sure that such a campaign would cost you business.
Could I prove it?

The employee would say that I am restricting his right to practice his religion in his own time and that I am trying to tell him which parts of the Hadith he can quote and which he can't even when he is not at work.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 08:00 PM   #1637
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Is that bad?
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Old 3rd September 2019, 08:07 PM   #1638
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The religious discrimination I mean freedom bill will make it illegal to include a clause like that. It will make it legal - in fact, protected - to insult and vilify people as long as it is your sincere religious conviction that they are subhuman.
Actually statements that would harass, vilify or incite hatred are exempted - at least in some cases.

I suppose it comes down to what is considered vilification.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 08:08 PM   #1639
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is that bad?
As I understand it from the media, it is bad when Labor is in government and good when the Coalition are in government. A bit like falling house prices.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 08:33 PM   #1640
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This bill simply puts religious discrimination on a similar basis to sex or race discrimination laws.
No, it doesn't. It exempts religions discrimination from sex and race discrimination laws.
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