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Old 10th September 2018, 01:40 AM   #441
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Really? Plenty of people here seem to be trying to justify her stupidity and/or negligence on the grounds of assumed terror. "She could have been killed!" "She could have been raped!" Etc.
But you attributed to me something I never said or even thought. My suggestion? Avoid doing that; it's not difficult. Those comments were made by people speculating what possible justification she might come up with. I think you're probably smart enough to understand that.

Instead you said I wanted posters to think she was terrified. I said nothing remotely like that. There's an easy way to avoid this: Respond to what posters write; rely less on mind-reading.
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Old 10th September 2018, 01:56 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
But you attributed to me something I never said or even thought.
Yeah, my bad. It was late where I am, and it had been a long day (no irony intended).
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Old 10th September 2018, 01:59 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Except for the killing a person part.
Oh that's just one of those things, if he hadn't been home this would never would have happened so he's clearly to blame, it's pretty much a suicide!
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:19 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
That factor is in play here. She had just moved in a month before.
Not after 30 days of making it home. I wonder if she made other mistakes in that time, but thankfully could not get into the apartment and then realised her mistake.

The, I am new to the area excuse wears off after a day or so.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:25 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She was off-duty so I think some of these things don't apply. I think she also can't be disciplined for improper police procedure. The police chief asked the Texas Rangers to get involved because of these and other complications. The incident itself is said to be complicated and then that she is off-duty is more complication.
An off duty cop who comes across a crime (I presume that is what she will say she thought was happening, someone had broken into her apartment) should put themselves back on duty and react appropriately.

She had exactly the same alternatives as if she had been on foot patrol and had come across a potential housebreaking.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:58 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
"Freaking out" is what reasonable people do when a stranger is in the house. Her reaction was perfectly normal. What caused the reaction was a mistake. her reaction and what caused that reaction are not the same thing.

Could a reasonable person mistake an apartment door? Yes. Could that same reasonable person fear for their life upon entering an apartment they thought was there's? Yes.

So where's the crime at? She didn't do anything a non-reasonable person would do.
It is not normal for a police officer to shoot an unarmed intruder.
Normal procedure is to arrest said intruder.

Had she been at her own apartment, normal procedure would have been to arrest the unarmed intruder.

Had this intruder been in a closed grocery store, normal procedure would have been to arrest him.

In no case is it normal procedure for a police officer to immediately fire two rounds at an unarmed suspect, absent other circumstances such as a fight with the officer.
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:09 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If you were walking in the door of what you thought was your home and a strange man gets up and maybe runs at you, and you have a gun, you think it's unreasonable to shoot the person? Really?
Ahh yes a new heinous crime! What shall we call this scenario you have made up? "Running towards your front door someone is trying to force open, whilst black?"

Would you still be arguing these ficticious inanities if she had shot a female, child or teenager who had opened their own door trying to see who was on the other side?

Last edited by Hungry81; 10th September 2018 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:17 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If you were walking in the door of what you thought was your home and a strange man gets up and maybe runs at you, and you have a gun, you think it's unreasonable to shoot the person? Really?
You think she's going to say that she walked in and he ran at her?

I think the evidence will show otherwise, and I also think she already told a different story.

I also think she was the one yelling for whoever was inside to "open up".
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:34 AM   #449
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Another possibility is that they put the Manslaughter charge on hold because they have found something more nefarious.

For example, she has had problems with this neighbor, or was dating him, or some other reason that puts it more toward 2nd degree murder.
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:42 AM   #450
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Otherwise, she is going to claim that she was completely wiped out by the 14 hour shift, and that the Dallas PD is responsible for putting her in a state where this could have happened.

This will be a difficult prosecution. She was in fear for her life, going to the wrong door is an easy mistake to make, we have testimony here of several apartment dwellers going to the wrong apartment. Her mental state was decreased because of the extended shift.

Will the jury be instructed to only look at 'Was she in fear for her life?', ignoring the mistake of going to the wrong apartment? Did he have a remote control in his hand? was he carrying a baseball bat? a knife? a gun even?

Jury instruction will be critical to the outcome.
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:43 AM   #451
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Will there be expert testimony telling about judgement mistakes after a high stress 14 hour shift?
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:58 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Otherwise, she is going to claim that she was completely wiped out by the 14 hour shift, and that the Dallas PD is responsible for putting her in a state where this could have happened.

This will be a difficult prosecution. She was in fear for her life, going to the wrong door is an easy mistake to make, we have testimony here of several apartment dwellers going to the wrong apartment. Her mental state was decreased because of the extended shift.

Will the jury be instructed to only look at 'Was she in fear for her life?', ignoring the mistake of going to the wrong apartment? Did he have a remote control in his hand? was he carrying a baseball bat? a knife? a gun even?

Jury instruction will be critical to the outcome.
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Will there be expert testimony telling about judgement mistakes after a high stress 14 hour shift?
Has a non-cop ever managed to get off a similar homicide on such grounds? I'd hazard a guess than not many if any have.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:01 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Has a non-cop ever managed to get off a similar homicide on such grounds? I'd hazard a guess than not many if any have.
Zimmerman comes to mind.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:15 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It is in a story linked to earlier in the thread from Dallas' NBC affiliate:



Cops get things wrong a lot, though.

At the newspaper I would have made sure there was a blanket attribution for the entire paragraph. "An officer gave the following account": I never knew if that really protected us, but I felt better doing it as I wanted each sentence to be a statement of fact. If attribution got too clumsy I would use that phrase. But that was in the olden days - 10 years ago. We probably also wouldn't have used an anonymous source to begin with.

I'm really confused about what if anything the cop told Dallas PD.
Exactly simple mistake. If this happened on duty she would totally never even be charged. Why ruin her life for a minor mistake?
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:17 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why ruin her life for a minor mistake?
Not minor to the victim!
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:20 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Really? You don't see this as a one-off? I find that hard to believe. She never would have made it to adulthood if she was that reckless. She certainly couldn't carry out a career as a cop. Yet she seems to have done so, until this incident.
Why should a life be ruined for one little mistake, live and let die is what I say.

Funny how one off events seem to be perfectly acceptable reasons to send people to prison if they are not cops though.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:21 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Has a non-cop ever managed to get off a similar homicide on such grounds? I'd hazard a guess than not many if any have.
Many cops have gotten off responding to the wrong house and shooting people. Many have gotten off shooting someone when the wrong address is on a warrant.

I'd say it is important if she announced "POLICE, OPEN UP" first. If she did that, then she will certainly be cleared. If she did not, it might be a difficult defense.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:29 AM   #458
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Here is another scenario, she walks up to the wrong apartment, starts to put her key in, realizes it is not her apartment, but hears something indicating a crime in progress. She then attempts to stop the crime by announcing 'open up, police' the door opens, and the subject attacks the officer.

At what point did she realize it was not her apartment, but there was a possible crime in progress?

Or, if she is at the apartment thinking it is hers, hears something, assumes it is a crime in progress, then announces police.

This is going to be very hard to prosecute. Either way, she THINKS there is a crime in progress.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:32 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post

I'd say it is important if she announced "POLICE, OPEN UP" first. If she did that, then she will certainly be cleared.
Why do you think this? If she identified herself as a cop the victim would most likely have opened the door, as he did, and been killed for doing so, as he was. Are you suggesting the victim should have not opened the door, even if she had identified herself? Or are you saying the shooting was inevitable, that whatever course of action the victim took he would have been killed, and that's okay?
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:33 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
This is going to be very hard to prosecute. Either way, she THINKS there is a crime in progress.
At what point did the idea of a police officer's judgement being wrong get taken completely off the table in our legal discourse?
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:36 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Many cops have gotten off responding to the wrong house and shooting people. Many have gotten off shooting someone when the wrong address is on a warrant.

I'd say it is important if she announced "POLICE, OPEN UP" first. If she did that, then she will certainly be cleared. If she did not, it might be a difficult defense.
If she yelled "Police! Open up!" and then shot him when he obeyed her, that will be a certain conviction, imo.

If she said anything to indicate that she already thought a burglary was in progress, then she's doomed, imo.

It means she would have been expecting the door to be opened by someone, and she was not surprised by the door opening at all.

This burglar can't really exit any other way than the front door, being on the third floor, as she thought.

It also means she should have treated the situation as an active crime in progress in the first place. Which would have meant in part, backing away from the door and calling it in.

The apartment number is apparently easily seen by the door.

https://dallasnews.imgix.net/1536542...Jeannumber.jpg
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:42 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If she yelled "Police! Open up!" and then shot him when he obeyed her, that will be a certain conviction, imo.

If she said anything to indicate that she already thought a burglary was in progress, then she's doomed, imo.

It means she would have been expecting the door to be opened by someone, and she was not surprised by the door opening at all.

This burglar can't really exit any other way than the front door, being on the third floor, as she thought.

It also means she should have treated the situation as an active crime in progress in the first place. Which would have meant in part, backing away from the door and calling it in.

The apartment number is apparently easily seen by the door.

https://dallasnews.imgix.net/1536542...Jeannumber.jpg

If she convinces a jury that she was in fear of her life, after a 14hour shift, they will have to acquit her.

Do you know if the resident answered the door with a gun? or a knife? or a bat? We don't know this yet. How can you say the above, knowing that police officers have been getting off shooting people in the wrong house over and over?
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:43 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Zimmerman comes to mind.
Zimmerman didn't go to the wrong condo, thinking it was his own.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:43 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If she convinces a jury that she was in fear of her life, after a 14hour shift, they will have to acquit her.
Jesus effing Christ I could have killed soooooo people in Afghanistan and got away with it if that's the standard.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:46 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Here is another scenario, she walks up to the wrong apartment, starts to put her key in, realizes it is not her apartment, but hears something indicating a crime in progress. She then attempts to stop the crime by announcing 'open up, police' the door opens, and the subject attacks the officer.
What on earth counts as the "sound" of a "crime in progress" when the occupant/victim is legitimately in his own home? Why would the occupant/victim attack a uniformed police officer?

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Old 10th September 2018, 05:50 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The apartment number is apparently easily seen by the door.

https://dallasnews.imgix.net/1536542...Jeannumber.jpg
It would be more helpful to see where that is in relation to the door, notwithstanding the fact it looks like a totally wanky way of indicating the number.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:53 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
What on earth counts as the "sound" of a "crime in progress" when the occupant/victim is legitimately in his own home? Why would the occupant/victim attack a uniformed police officer?
* After a 14 hour shift in a high crime neighborhood issuing warrants?
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:53 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You didn't note my post above. She has already been arrested and charged with manslaughter.
https://www.star-telegram.com/latest...218101230.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ng/1248119002/
Hall announced Friday that investigators were preparing a warrant for a manslaughter charge. A day later, after turning over the case, she said the Rangers had asked her to hold off on the charges. The Rangers, she said, had interviewed Guyger and wanted to further investigate information obtained from her.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:54 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus effing Christ I could have killed soooooo people in Afghanistan and got away with it if that's the standard.
I've highlighted the part that didn't apply to you, but does apply to a police officer.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:55 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
* After a 14 hour shift in a high crime neighborhood issuing warrants?
If she can't separate the job from where she actually lives, maybe she was in the wrong job?
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:56 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I've highlighted the part that didn't apply to you, but does apply to a police officer.
Why? Why do police officers get this power of life and death based on nothing than whatever pops into their head at any random moment with zero need to back it up with anything?
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:56 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I've highlighted the part that didn't apply to you, but does apply to a police officer.
Being a cop is more dangerous/frightening than serving in Afghan? Whodda thought...?
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:57 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
* After a 14 hour shift in a high crime neighborhood issuing warrants?
So what after walking around for 14 hours not killing anyone she gets a free one when she gets home? Or not even home.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:02 AM   #474
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Here is an updated article with a description of the incident
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dall...-official-says

Door was unlocked
She walked in
She shot him
She called 911 and was saying she's sorry.
She parked on the wrong floor of the parking deck
She did not know the victim.
It was dark when she shot him. (does this mean skin color is not a factor?)
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:04 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Why? Why do police officers get this power of life and death based on nothing than whatever pops into their head at any random moment with zero need to back it up with anything?
A jury needs to determine if the shooting cop was in fear for their life at the time of the shooting. It is a pretty standard requirement for law enforcement.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:06 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Being a cop is more dangerous/frightening than serving in Afghan? Whodda thought...?
The part where you completely hallucinate that I said that ^^^

Afghanistan most likely had different standards of engagement than a civilian police officer.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:09 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Here is an updated article with a description of the incident
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dall...-official-says

Door was unlocked
She walked in
She shot him
She called 911 and was saying she's sorry.
Quote:
Thank you for being a patron of the Dallas Morning News. Unfortunately, our site is unavailable to European Union visitors while we work with our partners to ensure your data is protected.
I'm not in the European Union...
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:20 AM   #478
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Well .. that's what you get for keeping the door unlocked. People seriously do that in US ?
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:26 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Well .. that's what you get for keeping the door unlocked. People seriously do that in US ?
When you have police officers living right there in your apartment complex, it should be safe... oh wait.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:28 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Here is an updated article with a description of the incident
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dall...-official-says

Door was unlocked
She walked in
She shot him
She called 911 and was saying she's sorry.
She parked on the wrong floor of the parking deck
She did not know the victim.
It was dark when she shot him. (does this mean skin color is not a factor?)
So now we have updated version, what, 3 or 4, and still no mention of Jean acting aggressively? Unless Dallas PD protocol is to kill all suspects on sight, there is no way she has justification.

I guess the takeaway is to lock your doors at all times, now to protect yourself from police walking in and executing you. Because they are scared and/or tired and/or pay little attention to important details like where they are. I can't believe there is anything debatable here.
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