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Old 10th September 2018, 06:38 AM   #481
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Well .. that's what you get for keeping the door unlocked. People seriously do that in US ?
I live in the US, on an island beach town in New Jersey that has about 100,000 people roaming around in the summer. We have never locked our doors and never had a problem (knock wood). When we leave the state on vacation, we leave the place open in case anyone stops by to crash.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:54 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Maybe. I still don't think they'll charge her with anything serious.
They already charged her with manslaughter before you posted this.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:56 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Here is an updated article with a description of the incident
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dall...-official-says

Door was unlocked
She walked in
She shot him
She called 911 and was saying she's sorry.
She parked on the wrong floor of the parking deck
She did not know the victim.
It was dark when she shot him. (does this mean skin color is not a factor?)
That's how I figured it most probably went down.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:57 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
A jury needs to determine if the shooting cop was in fear for their life at the time of the shooting. It is a pretty standard requirement for law enforcement.
A jury ought to have to determine if the shooting cop was reasonably in fear for their life in most jurisdictions. "He was black and I'm scared of black people" should not, for example, be a blanket pass on shooting anyone black.

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Old 10th September 2018, 06:57 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
They already charged her with manslaughter before you posted this.
Well, I blew that prediction.

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Old 10th September 2018, 06:58 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus effing Christ I could have killed soooooo people in Afghanistan and got away with it if that's the standard.
It is well established that the police have much looser standards of when it is fine to shoot with no serious repercussions on the shooter than the military.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:00 AM   #487
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I want to know how often can you break into someones apartment and kill them and not get arrested on the spot. That seems like she was being treated very different right from the start.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:04 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That's how I figured it most probably went down.
Some of this still doesn't really make sense. If she put her key into the unlocked door, it still wouldn't turn. Most people would notice that the key doesn't fit the lock, even if the door were unlocked.

Some reports have mentioned a blood sample being taken. I think it's very possible that she was drunk at the time. Drunks trying to enter the wrong home is a very common story and could explain her missing the obvious cues that she was at the wrong door.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:06 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If she convinces a jury that she was in fear of her life, after a 14hour shift, they will have to acquit her.

Do you know if the resident answered the door with a gun? or a knife? or a bat? We don't know this yet. How can you say the above, knowing that police officers have been getting off shooting people in the wrong house over and over?
Even in stand your ground states, the law requires that the person doing the "self-defense" be somewhere they are legally allowed to be. Even if it were an accident, she is trespassing. She has a duty to retreat in every state of the US while trespassing and her "fear" is irrelevant.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:12 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Some of this still doesn't really make sense. If she put her key into the unlocked door, it still wouldn't turn. Most people would notice that the key doesn't fit the lock, even if the door were unlocked.

Some reports have mentioned a blood sample being taken. I think it's very possible that she was drunk at the time. Drunks trying to enter the wrong home is a very common story and could explain her missing the obvious cues that she was at the wrong door.
I can see the deadbolt thing. You fiddle with the key, and turn the separate handle and the unlocked door opens, before it registers in your head that something was really wrong.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:13 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If she convinces a jury that she was in fear of her life, after a 14hour shift, they will have to acquit her.

Do you know if the resident answered the door with a gun? or a knife? or a bat? We don't know this yet. How can you say the above, knowing that police officers have been getting off shooting people in the wrong house over and over?
Mr X is preparing dinner in his own house using a carving knife to dice tofu and organic fruit . The door is unlocked as he is expecting company quite soon, and he has displayed a new lovely red door matt he recently recieved as a gift to help them find his apartment. Suddenly the door rattles and a COMPLETE STRANGER wielding a gun storms in, She is ranting about being burgled. Mr X is surprised. Does Mr X deserve to get shot? Why?

The answer is a clear NO! because he should be able to cut tofu and oranges in his own home without a delusional gun toting moron invading his home and leaping to maximum force because she is incompetent, inept and, aaaaawwwwww tired the poor thing.

Even if he HAD approached her with a knife in hand, she should GTFO and call for backup, That way she can merely be teased at the station next shift and cost the station $10's of thousands in compesation, instead of being arrested, tried and costing 100's of thousands to millions in compesation.

Fudbucker you are fundamentally wrong. And while I can sympathise that a moment of stupidity has changed her life, Her stupidity has taken an innocent persons life and irreparably changed and damaged many others.

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Old 10th September 2018, 07:19 AM   #492
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Maybe she was just moonlighting as a burglar to make ends meet.

A really rubbish one.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:22 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I can see the deadbolt thing. You fiddle with the key, and turn the separate handle and the unlocked door opens, before it registers in your head that something was really wrong.
Perhaps, but the key wouldn't rotate at all.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:23 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Even in stand your ground states, the law requires that the person doing the "self-defense" be somewhere they are legally allowed to be. Even if it were an accident, she is trespassing. She has a duty to retreat in every state of the US while trespassing and her "fear" is irrelevant.
Are you suggesting that she shot the victim after realizing that she was not in her own home?
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:26 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
A jury ought to have to determine if the shooting cop was reasonably in fear for their life in most jurisdictions. "He was black and I'm scared of black people" should not, for example, be a blanket pass on shooting anyone black.

Dave
Does "he was a large figure approaching me in what I thought was my own darkened living room seem like something that could reasonably inspire fear?
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:26 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Perhaps, but the key wouldn't rotate at all.
Yes, but after seeing it not rotate, a natural reaction would be to try the handle. When it opens, you kind of assume that the deadbolt didn't turn because it was already in the open position and had no further to turn.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:27 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
What on earth counts as the "sound" of a "crime in progress" when the occupant/victim is legitimately in his own home? Why would the occupant/victim attack a uniformed police officer?
He might have been watching a police drama on his telly and there were gunshots on the soundtrack.

The more people speculate about this the more it becomes clear that he was a suicide, he'd arranged everything so no matter what he did it would result in his death.

So cruel of him to involve this innocent police officer in his suicide - typical selfish suicider.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:29 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I live in the US, on an island beach town in New Jersey that has about 100,000 people roaming around in the summer. We have never locked our doors and never had a problem (knock wood). When we leave the state on vacation, we leave the place open in case anyone stops by to crash.
I don't get it. Just anyone can open your doors and simply go inside, take anything, do anything, even if you are not at home ? Do I get it right ?
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:30 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Does "he was a large figure approaching me in what I thought was my own darkened living room seem like something that could reasonably inspire fear?
Is killing the normal response to fear? Are you suggesting that any time a trained police officer is in fear, they are free to execute? Are you? Am I?
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:31 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, but after seeing it not rotate, a natural reaction would be to try the handle. When it opens, you kind of assume that the deadbolt didn't turn because it was already in the open position and had no further to turn.
Fair enough. All the deadbolts I have ever had can still turn if the deadbolt is unlocked. Mine require the key to be returned to the 12 o'clock position before the key can be removed. You turn the key to the 9 o'clock position to unlock. There is noticeably less resistance if you do this with the lock already in the unlocked position, but it still turns. An improper key would not turn at all.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:33 AM   #501
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Do they know yet if she was either drunk or under the influence of some other drug at the time?
Do they know for sure she didn’t know him?
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:34 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Are you suggesting that she shot the victim after realizing that she was not in her own home?
I'm saying it doesn't matter what she knew. She was trespassing, intentionally or not. She cannot lawfully use self defense without first exhausting the options to retreat. Negligence might be the difference between manslaughter or murder, but it's still criminal.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:35 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Does "he was a large figure approaching me in what I thought was my own darkened living room seem like something that could reasonably inspire fear?
As I said upthread, that is a well-understood legal defense, which is commonly known as imperfect self-defense. It's reasonable grounds for reducing a charge of murder to one of manslaughter, which is what she's been charged with.

Dave

ETA: I see that Texas has a version of Castle Doctrine in place, so Jean could have - in principle, at least - shot and killed Guyger on the grounds that she illegally entered his home and threatened him with a deadly weapon.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:40 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
As I said upthread, that is a well-understood legal defense, which is commonly known as imperfect self-defense. It's reasonable grounds for reducing a charge of murder to one of manslaughter, which is what she's been charged with.

Dave
This seems very relevant.

Being intoxicated while carrying a firearm would likely violate the "good faith" portion of an imperfect self-defense mitigation.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:42 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I don't get it. Just anyone can open your doors and simply go inside, take anything, do anything, even if you are not at home ? Do I get it right ?
Yes, but with a couple caveats. The local cops and our few year-round neighbors know who we are, and we are in a high visibility area that would be hard to rob unnoticed. I also made peace with the 'usual suspects' in the area when we bought and have an agreement.

The main reason is that we have very little of value laying around, and there are much more lucrative targets around that are vacant. I have the original century old 7' front door and hardware that I don't want damaged during a break-in. But mostly, family and friends just drop by and use the bathrooms or whatever after the beach, so we leave it open. Also, we are in and out at unpredictable times, so staking out our schedules is near impossible
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:43 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Negligence might be the difference between manslaughter or murder, but it's still criminal.

Doesn't "negligence" in regards to homicides mean you had no intent to kill? Something like unthinkingly leaving something where someone might trip over it. I doubt pulling out a gun and shooting someone is going to qualify as negligence, even if mistakes lead up to the event.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:49 AM   #507
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The only thing I see that Rangers might be investigating is a claim of self defense.

But in the wrong house, still manslaughter? So Rangers getting legal opinions?

I predict more news today.

eta: Ooops, I see she was charged with manslaughter yesterday. That should dmapen a lot of speculation.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:49 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post

ETA: I see that Texas has a version of Castle Doctrine in place, so Jean could have - in principle, at least - shot and killed Guyger on the grounds that she illegally entered his home and threatened him with a deadly weapon.
No need to wonder. A Texas man shot and killed a police officer during a no-knock warrant and was not indicted. Even though the police had a warrant, they chose not to announce themselves and the resident was acting reasonably when he shot at the strangers forcing entry into his home.

That was a case where the police were doing everything "by the book", and still the death of the officer was not a result of criminal action. Don't think a indictment would be forthcoming for a scenario where the police officer was in the wrong.

https://www.theeagle.com/news/local/...c77c3e741.html
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:51 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Doesn't "negligence" in regards to homicides mean you had no intent to kill? Something like unthinkingly leaving something where someone might trip over it. I doubt pulling out a gun and shooting someone is going to qualify as negligence, even if mistakes lead up to the event.
I would think the distinction to be drawn here is between intent to kill - which was clearly present, res ipsa loquitur - and malice aforethought, which would be addressed by imperfect self-defense. Not a lawyer, though, just naturally pedantic.

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Old 10th September 2018, 08:04 AM   #510
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Okay, you know what? I think we need a new law here. Not murder, or manslaughter, but something. Call it the "You done ****** up, copper" law. For situations like this, where the cops just done ****** up. No need to prove intent, or racism, or worry about "fear for their lives" and all that distraction.

Just admit your done ****** up, copper, and we'll give you a lighter sentence, in one of those country-club type prisons. Gets the idiot off the street, bars them from ever working as a cop again, but maybe doesn't completely ruin the rest of their life.

Anyone want to make that compromise?
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:14 AM   #511
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Okay, you know what? I think we need a new law here. Not murder, or manslaughter, but something. Call it the "You done ****** up, copper" law. For situations like this, where the cops just done ****** up. No need to prove intent, or racism, or worry about "fear for their lives" and all that distraction.

Just admit your done ****** up, copper, and we'll give you a lighter sentence, in one of those country-club type prisons. Gets the idiot off the street, bars them from ever working as a cop again, but maybe doesn't completely ruin the rest of their life.

Anyone want to make that compromise?
No, we need to start actually charging cops with manslaughter/murder as appropriate. Making a mistake in judgement that results in loss of life is manslaughter. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:18 AM   #512
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Okay, you know what? I think we need a new law here. Not murder, or manslaughter, but something. Call it the "You done ****** up, copper" law. For situations like this, where the cops just done ****** up. No need to prove intent, or racism, or worry about "fear for their lives" and all that distraction.

Just admit your done ****** up, copper, and we'll give you a lighter sentence, in one of those country-club type prisons. Gets the idiot off the street, bars them from ever working as a cop again, but maybe doesn't completely ruin the rest of their life.

Anyone want to make that compromise?
I wouldn't. I'd much rather see police held to an exponentially higher standard. They kill enough people needlessly without making it yet easier.

The compromise I would like is that if an officer discharges his weapon or sends someone to the hospital, he is tried by a jury (or maybe a panel, in a streamlined option) of civilians. No more internal investigations, where their coworkers are judge and jury.

eta: you are concerned with cops 'ruining the rest of their lives' when they wrongly end someone elses???
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:19 AM   #513
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is well established that the police have much looser standards of when it is fine to shoot with no serious repercussions on the shooter than the military.
That's why I bristle when people describe over-eager to use force police as "Acting like soldiers."

I wish (sarcasm).

In Afghanistan the enemy, an actual declared enemy and not a member of the populace I'm supposed to be protecting, had to pretty much have already murdered you before you were allowed to retort to the point where "I'm rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" was largely seen as the default rule you had to follow.

Cops aren't acting like soldiers. They're acting like kids playing soldiers. They're acting like actors playing soldiers as extras in a Michael Bay film.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Are you suggesting that she shot the victim after realizing that she was not in her own home?
In what possible logical moral framework is murdering somebody because you're wrong a valid concept?
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:24 AM   #514
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Something not yet discussed.... My good friend is ex NYPD and LAPD (he is 65 and retired).When discussing this case over coffee, he mentioned that in both cities patrol officers were required to change out of uniform before leaving duty. He said that this was to distinguish on and off duty perosnel. He told me, "for the life of me, I don't know wjhy she was in full uniform. We HAD to change. They even had a dry cleaning service to pick up our uniforms. The only guys who left with part of their uniforms on were active SWAT, and they only kept their pants on and exchanged their shirts for civilian style blues". He said that he doesn't know Dallas PD's system but that he is convinced that they don't let active cops just leave in full dress...

I'm trying to find anything on this. Any ex cops lurking around? Bikewer?

Last edited by chrispy; 10th September 2018 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:28 AM   #515
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I wouldn't. I'd much rather see police held to an exponentially higher standard. They kill enough people needlessly without making it yet easier.

The compromise I would like is that if an officer discharges his weapon or sends someone to the hospital, he is tried by a jury (or maybe a panel, in a streamlined option) of civilians. No more internal investigations, where their coworkers are judge and jury.

The problem is, that's simply not going to happen. Look at this thread, where people are actually trying to claim that this shooting was legally justified. Those people exist, and as long as they do, holding police to "an exponentially higher standard" is just not going to happen.

So what do we do then? Do we try to find a compromise, such that the police are subject to at least some sort of punishment in these cases, or do we just keep screaming about it, while nothing else gets done?


Quote:
eta: you are concerned with cops 'ruining the rest of their lives' when they wrongly end someone elses???

I'm not concerned with it, but the people I'm trying to compromise with seem to be. That's why I'm asking the question, would you accept this compromise if the people who support the cops in these kinds of situations would be willing to accept it?
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:32 AM   #516
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Look at this thread, where people are actually trying to claim that this shooting was legally justified.
Has anyone actually done that?
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:35 AM   #517
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Something not yet discussed.... My good friend is ex NYPD and LAPD (he is 65 and retired).When discussing this case over coffee, he mentioned that in both cities patrol officers were required to change out of uniform before leaving duty. He said that this was to distinguish on and off duty perosnel. He told me, "for the life of me, I don't know wjhy she was in full uniform. We HAD to change. They even had a dry cleaning service to pick up our uniforms. The only guys who left with part of their uniforms on were active SWAT, and they only kept their pants on and exchanged their shirts for civilian style blues". He said that he doesn't know Dallas PD's system but that he is convinced that they don't let active cops just leave in full dress...

I'm trying to find anything on this. Any ex cops lurking around? Bikewer?
That's going to vary by department. Cops in my home town not only left in full uniform, they drove their police cars to and from work, keeping them parked at home when off duty.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:35 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Has anyone actually done that?
If that's not the point of all the excusing making and special pleading and wild scenario creating I'd love very much to know what the point is.

"I'm not saying she's innocent/justified/excusable but I'm just going to sit here and make up wild theory after wild theory of why she might not be" is a little too JAQing-Off / "I'm not saying I'm just saying" for my taste.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:38 AM   #519
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If that's not the point of all the excusing making and special pleading and wild scenario creating I'd love very much to know what the point is.
Yeah, but you frequently jump in to threads and completely misrepresent what's going on in them. And you haven't cited an example.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:44 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's going to vary by department. Cops in my home town not only left in full uniform, they drove their police cars to and from work, keeping them parked at home when off duty.
Yeah, he mentioned differences by city, but said that in his opinion all large city departments would (should?) be the same.

Last edited by chrispy; 10th September 2018 at 08:46 AM.
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