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Old 10th September 2018, 09:54 AM   #561
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Being tired after your shift is not an excuse for walking into somebody else's house and shooting them to death. Consider that only minutes earlier, while equally "tired", the same officer was walking around, armed, and presumably responsible for protecting innocent life.

This person deserves to go to prison for a very long time.
I agree. I'd also place the odds of her being convicted, in Dallas county, at about 1 in a thousand. Its not going to happen. Maybe she pleas down to involuntary manslaughter with a suspended sentence.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:55 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
That was my point in posting the imaginary news story about an off-duty officer being shot in their apartment by a neighbor who had gone to the wrong apartment.

Turn it around, if it was the officer who had been shot and killed by a neighbor who was at the wrong door. Would someone who killed an off-duty officer in identical circumstances be treated the same way? Because they should be.

In this case, especially because the officer (apparently) immediately reported the incident, I can live with the police treating the officer with more consideration and courtesy than a non-officer would get. But it is not only ethically wrong, it's probably illegal.

I can live with them treating anyone who immediately reported the incident with more courtesy as opposed to, say, billy clubbing them a few times and assorted other cop pastimes.

But that just means being polite, which they should do anyway, in the absence of provocation. Not because she was a cop.

And consideration and courtesy doesn't add up to not arresting her for three days.

They knew she killed somebody. They didn't know why beyond what she had told them. Needing to gather more information is a reason to keep her, not to let her walk.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:55 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Is anyone certain that is not what happened here? Was she not taken to "the station" to give her statement?
I read a couple stories that said she was not questioned at the time of the incident.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:56 AM   #564
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I asked this question in a previous thread about an officer involved shooting and never got an answer from the "But... but they feared for their life!" crowd.

Is there any possible scenario in which an officer uses lethal force because "they feared for their life" in which they would still be in the wrong?

Because if your answer is "No" you are functionally handing them a blank check to kill a whim.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:58 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Being tired after your shift is not an excuse for walking into somebody else's house and shooting them to death.
I know right.

So now a long work shift is a license to kill?

I'm seriously starting to get annoyed at how many times I could have killed someone and gotten away with it. There's some missed opportunities in there.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:59 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
In other words, it only counts if it is explicit, and lots of explanations about why she isn't guilty of a crime or transparent Just Asking Questions™ doesn't imply anything at all?
Just cite the example FFS.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:02 AM   #567
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's not an overreaction if she legitimately feared for her life.
And she's killed the only person who can argue against that, hasn't she?

Look, you can "if" this all you want. Do you have any reason to believe she feared for her life beyond her own claim?

Quote:
Let's suppose she was slipped something in her drink before she went home.
Seriously, man. WTF?

Quote:
OMG!!1 I CAN'T DEAL WITH THESE SHADES OF GREY!!111!
Sorry, your frantic theories don't constitute relevant information.

Quote:
If you were walking in the door of what you thought was your home and a strange man gets up and maybe runs at you, and you have a gun, you think it's unreasonable to shoot the person? Really?
Where did you get that information? Link?

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It is in a story linked to earlier in the thread from Dallas' NBC affiliate:
Ah, yes. The classic "burglar in underwear". I get that all the time.

Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Imagine-
Yeah but that was a scary black man.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:09 AM   #568
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So if I come up to "my" car, and I see someone in it, and I confront the person about being in "my" car, and I shoot him in fear for my life during the confrontation, it's okay?

Because the whole "fear for my life" was started by me, by thinking someone else's car was mine.

Can you plead "fear for life" when you are the cause of your own fear? When you wrongly started the chain of events?

I don't think you can.

The cop started this chain of events, and the whole chain after that point is her fault in this case, imo.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

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Old 10th September 2018, 10:10 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Can you plead "fear for life" when you are the cause of your own fear? When you wrongly started the chain of events?

I don't think you can.
I'd also like one of the "But they feared for their life!" crowd to answer this.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:10 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
So if I come up to "my" car, and I see someone in it, and I confront the person about being in "my" car, and I shoot him in fear for my life during the confrontation, it's okay?

Because the whole "fear for my life" was started by me, by thinking someone else's car was mine.

Can you plead "fear for life" when you are the cause of your own fear? When you wrongly started the chain of events?

I don't think you can.
Yes, you'd be correct. It has to be a reasonable fear. Don't know why this is so hard to understand.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:11 AM   #571
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Can you give me a scenario with an unreasonable fear? Is there such a thing in your opinion?
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:12 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Because normally, people a) know where they live, and b) even when they do mix things up, they realize that they must have messed up and don't go after the people who live there.

Is this really a common action where you live? Go to the wrong place and then take it out on the people who live there?
Right. It's happened to me four times so far; someone trying to open the door to my own appartment. So far, no one's gotten a machete in the forehead.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Not minor to the victim!
I think you missed turtle's heavy sarcasm. He does that.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
* After a 14 hour shift in a high crime neighborhood issuing warrants?
The scary thing about hat is that her judgment was clearly impaired by that shift. It's lucky she didn't shoot anyone else that day, eh?

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I've highlighted the part that didn't apply to you, but does apply to a police officer.
No, it's no different for police officers. You're making stuff up.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:13 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Can you give me a scenario with an unreasonable fear? Is there such a thing in your opinion?
The fear is unreasonable because it's based on her own actions and mistakes, imo.

Without her own actions and mistakes, she has no fears to deal with.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:13 AM   #574
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If you're addressing that question to me [SNIP] I'm agreeing that LTC8K6 presented an unreasonable fear.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:16 AM   #575
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I don't care if they fear for their life. They can cower in a closet all day in fear for all it matters.


The standard is if a reasonable person would believe that death or grievous bodily harm was imminent. The individual's cowardice/timidity are not the determinant.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:16 AM   #576
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The "threat" from Jean is based not on reality, but on her own behavior and errors.

She fears Jean because she made several mistakes, not because Jean is someone to fear.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:17 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
If you're addressing that question to me [SNIP] I'm agreeing that LTC8K6 presented an unreasonable fear.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0
Edited by kmortis:  Removed response to previously moderated content


Secondly he was describing the scenario that you are defending.

This woman caused her own fear by going into the wrong apartment.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:18 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
So if I come up to "my" car, and I see someone in it, and I confront the person about being in "my" car, and I shoot him in fear for my life during the confrontation, it's okay?

Because the whole "fear for my life" was started by me, by thinking someone else's car was mine.

Can you plead "fear for life" when you are the cause of your own fear? When you wrongly started the chain of events?

I don't think you can.

The cop started this chain of events, and the whole chain after that point is her fault in this case, imo.
If you got in the car, in the dark (because it was a very similar make/model and color to your own- which was parked one row over), and someone you did not expect popped up from the back seat of what you believed was your own car, and you shot them with a firearm you were legally able to have on your person. You would certainly have an argument to make.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:19 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If you got in the car, in the dark, and someone you did not expect popped up from the back seat and you shot them with a firearm you were legally able to have on your person. You would certainly have an argument to make.
Is it my car in this scenario?

Again people keep trying to bury that little detail or push it off to the side like that doesn't matter.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:20 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No one said that and that isn't what reasonable fear means in the law.
Yes they have.
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
"Freaking out" is what reasonable people do when a stranger is in the house. Her reaction was perfectly normal. What caused the reaction was a mistake. her reaction and what caused that reaction are not the same thing.

Could a reasonable person mistake an apartment door? Yes. Could that same reasonable person fear for their life upon entering an apartment they thought was there's? Yes.

So where's the crime at? She didn't do anything a non-reasonable person would do.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:20 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If you got in the car, in the dark, and someone you did not expect popped up from the back seat and you shot them with a firearm you were legally able to have on your person. You would certainly have an argument to make.
I would not, actually. I have illegally entered someone else's car and shot them.

And if you are going to change the scenario wholesale, then there's no point...
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:20 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
...They knew she killed somebody. They didn't know why beyond what she had told them. Needing to gather more information is a reason to keep her, not to let her walk.
It sounds like -- based on news accounts -- she made it clear it was an accidental shooting. She was described as apologizing to her victim and crying when the police arrived. Sounds like she made it pretty clear to everyone she had screwed up big time and knew it. I just don't see you, me or anyone who wasn't cop being able to tell arriving officers, you just shot, probably fatally, one of their fellow officers and being able to sleep in your own bed that night. Or the next night.

This is the old yarn about everyone being equal under the law. The proverbial 10-year-old kid in the street knows that's bull. And it shouldn't be bull. It's why some NFL players kneel. Do we mean what we say or don't we?
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:23 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is it my car in this scenario?

Again people keep trying to bury that little detail or push it off to the side like that doesn't matter.
I edited my reply.
In the hypothetical, the car looks just like yours, and the door opens for you. You still believe yourself to bi in your own car.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:25 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I edited my reply.
In the hypothetical, the car looks just like yours, and the door opens for you. You still believe yourself to bi in your own car.
'Whoopsie' still doesn't let you walk from the killing
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:26 AM   #585
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No. I do not have a blank check to kill someone absent other reasonable standards of self defense because "I" make a mistake.

And again as the Elephant in the room stomps around angry because nobody's paying it attention, cops don't get that right either.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:28 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Are you suggesting that she shot the victim after realizing that she was not in her own home?
No, he's saying that the standard is REASONABLE expectation of threat. You have to be able to check where you are before you think you're home with enough certainty to shoot whoever's there.

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Has anyone actually done that?
See thread. Three posters have made that case.

Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
It would be silly to think anyone would just silly walk away, without trying to open their apartment door, after the key didn't turn the first time ... EVERYONE would try the knob next.
Speak for yourself. If my key didn't fit the damned lock I'd check the door number again.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Apparently we had to pretend that JAQing Off isn't a thing or else we're "misrepresenting" people.
Sorry, Joe. That's not what JAQ is. Remember?

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
It is not apparent at this point that she " thought someone was inside her home " at any point up to the point at which she actually encountered them.
And?
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:28 AM   #587
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Think about how long it takes to investigate, prosecute, and defend a criminal case. Does anyone think that it can all be wrapped up on the spot and let the shooter walk away with the barrel still warm?

You get arrested when you kill someone. What, if any, charges are pressed comes later.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:30 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And she's killed the only person who can argue against that, hasn't she?
Kind of a good point. Once she killed the only witness, the story of what actually happened is 100% hers to tell - factually, or otherwise. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that she never mistook the apartment for hers.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:31 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No. I do not have a blank check to kill someone absent other reasonable standards of self defense because "I" make a mistake.

And again as the Elephant in the room stomps around angry because nobody's paying it attention, cops don't get that right either.
I have yet to see a poster claiming that there are extenuating circumstances that apply to her that would not also apply to any citizen in an identical circumstance. The "elephant" may be one that you are bringing into the room with you.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:33 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because if your answer is "No" you are functionally handing them a blank check to kill a whim.
Killing whims should be illegal.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:38 AM   #591
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deleted. misinterpreted post

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Old 10th September 2018, 10:40 AM   #592
Horatius
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Killing whims should be illegal.


But what if I'm ascared of your whims?
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:41 AM   #593
Ron Swanson
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More on the deadbolt thing I just checked and Dallas City ByLaws ...

"Require a keyless bolting device (that only can be locked and unlocked from the inside) and a door viewer on each exterior door."
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:41 AM   #594
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Kind of a good point. Once she killed the only witness, the story of what actually happened is 100% hers to tell - factually, or otherwise. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that she never mistook the apartment for hers.
The victim's lawyer says that he has video and witness testimony that contradict published accounts and right about the time he went to the DA with that video and witness, the cop was arrested.

Could be a coincidence, though.

I think he has video or audio of the officer yelling at Jean to open the door. That would contradict the "unlocked door" story.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:49 AM   #595
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
But what if I'm ascared of your whims?
#BlackWhimsMatter
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:50 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
It sounds like -- based on news accounts -- she made it clear it was an accidental shooting. She was described as apologizing to her victim and crying when the police arrived. Sounds like she made it pretty clear to everyone she had screwed up big time and knew it. I just don't see you, me or anyone who wasn't cop being able to tell arriving officers, you just shot, probably fatally, one of their fellow officers and being able to sleep in your own bed that night. Or the next night.

This is the old yarn about everyone being equal under the law. The proverbial 10-year-old kid in the street knows that's bull. And it shouldn't be bull. It's why some NFL players kneel. Do we mean what we say or don't we?

IIRC, the guy who accidentally shot his neighbor whilst illegally poaching slept in his own bed for a few days before they charged him.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:50 AM   #597
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
First of all ease off the attitude and insults there keyboard tough guy.
Stop misrepresenting everything.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Secondly he was describing the scenario that you are defending.
No, FFS. I'm agreeing he presented an unreasonable fear. I just freaking told you that. And as far as I know the officer in this shooting hasn't event claimed fear at all yet. And I certainly haven't defended such a claim. If you would invest a minute to read for meaning I actually made a point that would make her eligible for a murder 2 charge rather than manslaughter (and I still don't see why murder 2 isn't appropriate here).
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:52 AM   #598
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
yet you still don't understand it. It was NOT her apartment. period. just like the example was NOT his car. it starts ans ends with her.
Why the **** do you think I don't understand that?? Where the **** did I even mention it??
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:53 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It's her second killing, actually.
I thought the previous was a wounding - and it seemed justified as he'd grabbed her taser, so she would have had reason to fear for her life.

ETA: in the first case - unlike the second shooting, where the most lenient interpretation I can give is negligent homicide.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:56 AM   #600
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If there was any malice, or thoughts of premeditation, the officer would have lawyered up immediately.

Either she is going to plea to some type of a manslaughter charge, or they are going to come up with some sort of mental health related defense.

She was asleep on her feet after a tortuous 14-hour shift, therefore the incident occurred.
They will call several expert witness to explain the effects of long shifts on performance and judgement.

They will blame the police department for making this a requirement.

https://www.nij.gov/topics/law-enfor...es/impact.aspx
Quote:
Sleep deprivation is comparable to excessive drinking. A sleep deprivation study found that not sleeping for 17 hours impaired a person's motor skills to an extent equivalent to having an alcohol toxicity of 0.05 percent. Not sleeping for 24 hours was equivalent to a toxicity level of 0.10 percent.[1] This level of deprivation would impair speech, balance, coordination and mental judgment.

Sleep deprivation can cause work-related accidents. A study found that four out of eight officers involved in on-the-job accidents and injuries were impaired because of fatigue.[2] Such accidents include automobile crashes that were due to officers' impaired eye-hand coordination and propensity to nod-off behind the wheel. Other work related injuries come from accidents that occur when officers have impaired balance and coordination.

Research shows that fatigued officers:

Use more sick leave.
Practice inappropriate uses of force more frequently.
Become involved in more vehicle accidents.
Experience more accidental injuries.
Have more difficulty dealing with community members and other law enforcement agencies.
Have a higher likelihood of dying in the line of duty.[3]
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