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Old 10th September 2018, 12:22 PM   #641
Bob001
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post

By that report, presumably drawn from the officer's own account, she didn't give any warning before shooting. Even if there had been a burglary in progress, killing without warning is not approved police procedure.

The lesson here is when you enter your own home, always close and lock the door behind you. Put the chain on. Maybe push furniture against it if you have time.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:22 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
I wonder if that is a Texas thing. When I was stateside I lived in LA, and the only cops who wore full unis home were motorcycle cops. Curious if that is only LAPD. I live in Guatemala, so a little different down here
When I lived in Utah my neighborhood had some city police, state patrol, and county sheriffs living in it. They all wore their uniforms home and kept their patrol vehicles at home as well. That also happened with federal land management agency law enforcement people as well.

That said, I lived in a smallish town. It seems common in smallish towns but I don't know about larger cities like Dallas.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:24 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's the perfect crime. After you shot the first person because you were scared you can just then claim that you're such a threat that any reasonable person would want to shot you on site, therefore you can claim "reasonable fear of for your life" from everybody, and shoot them.
That sounds like a good excuse for black people to shoot cops, and round and round we go!
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:25 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
How did she avoid seeing all the cement sculpture/outdoor furniture on the fourth floor as per your linked photos?
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:26 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I see the length of her shift keeps getting extended. First 12 hrs., then 14 and now 15!
According to the Dallas police web site, a standard work week is five eight-hour shifts or four 10-hour shifts.
http://dallaspolice.net/joindpd/Page...yBenefits.aspx

If she was working overtime, they haven't actually said how much or for how long.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:33 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
I wonder if that is a Texas thing. When I was stateside I lived in LA, and the only cops who wore full unis home were motorcycle cops. Curious if that is only LAPD. I live in Guatemala, so a little different down here
I have seen numerous times in Ontario, Canada where cops drive their patrol car home and keep it there till the next shift, and I know some uniformed officers drive home in the own cars routinely

I know in the past when i lived out of town in some rural areas, cops are 'on call' at night and they keep the cruiser at their home, I do not know if that's still practiced now.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:36 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The victim's lawyer says that he has video and witness testimony that contradict published accounts and right about the time he went to the DA with that video and witness, the cop was arrested.

Could be a coincidence, though.

I think he has video or audio of the officer yelling at Jean to open the door. That would contradict the "unlocked door" story.
I think he's talking about the same video we can all see on the web of her walking on the balcony and talking on the radio or phone. The witness is probably one (of several) already cited by reporters and whose statements we have already read. There are no eyewitnesses of the shooting but there are at least two who heard the shots and heard more things after that.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:37 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
You need remedial reading then. And in the absence of that you should learn to ask for clarification. It's perfectly clear that the first "hypothetical" wasn't his actual opinion. He made that clear in the last sentence, as if it wasn't already obvious.
3 different people get the exact same impression from your post but it must be the 3 different people that are at fault? and deserve to be insulted no less?
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:37 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That might be a defense to a vehicular homicide charge -- "I was too drunk to know what I was doing" -- but it still involves admitting to the crime of drunk driving. "I was tired" doesn't carry its own penalty.
It's a principal of criminal law ... in all criminal cases, intoxication is a valid defence ... I wasn't talking about drunk driving or being sleepy.

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Old 10th September 2018, 12:46 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
How did she avoid seeing all the cement sculpture/outdoor furniture on the fourth floor as per your linked photos?
I believe that the level that you saw (which seems to be a community rooftop deck) is the 5th floor.

Residences seem to be on floors 2, 3 and 4.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:50 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
3 different people get the exact same impression from your post but it must be the 3 different people that are at fault? and deserve to be insulted no less?
Wow. Three whole people.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:53 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
By that report, presumably drawn from the officer's own account, she didn't give any warning before shooting. Even if there had been a burglary in progress, killing without warning is not approved police procedure.

The lesson here is when you enter your own home, always close and lock the door behind you. Put the chain on. Maybe push furniture against it if you have time.
Or, put your name on the door and a photo of yourself. Don't do that if you are on any most wanted list.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:54 PM   #653
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If there was any malice, or thoughts of premeditation, the officer would have lawyered up immediately.
Right because that's what always happens all the time in murder cases.

Wait, no it isn't.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:58 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yes, that's the "unlocked door" version.

We also have a "locked door " version out there from a "police source".
I believe that the original first description of the event given by Dallas Police is her version of what happened. I think it describes her entering the apartment and then shooting him. That makes sense if the door was open and she went in and then he suddenly appears.

In a locked-door version, he opens the door and she shoots him. In this version, she doesn't enter the apartment until after she shoots him. The shots would be fired before she crosses the threshold.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:58 PM   #655
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The victim's attorney, Lee Merritt, is on the phone to CNN now. He says the victim was fully clothed and wasn't holding a weapon or anything like one -- "No butterknife, nothing." He also complains that the cop wasn't arrested at the scene just based on the observable facts: unarmed person killed by someone who had no right to be there. He doesn't say anything about how she entered the unit.

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Old 10th September 2018, 01:18 PM   #656
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Or, put your name on the door and a photo of yourself. Don't do that if you are on any most wanted list.
No photo if you're a black guy. That's just asking for trouble.
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Old 10th September 2018, 01:29 PM   #657
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The victim's attorney, Lee Merritt, is on the phone to CNN now. He says the victim was fully clothed and wasn't holding a weapon or anything like one -- "No butterknife, nothing." He also complains that the cop wasn't arrested at the scene just based on the observable facts: unarmed person killed by someone who had no right to be there. He doesn't say anything about how she entered the unit.
Interesting. The underwear seemed like an embellishment to me.
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Old 10th September 2018, 01:31 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The fact the woman is a cop is irrelevant to me. I would argue the same thing if it was an armed citizen who did this. So far, this story isn't too different than one hunter at dusk honestly mistaking another for a deer. Not every hunter who accidentally kills someone gets prosecuted. Accidents happen, and sometimes people get killed when guns are involved.

The cops treated her with kid gloves because she was a cop, but that's par for the course.
Once again I must disagree here. The story is vastly different from that of a hunter making a target mistake, which is bad enough, and which, as I've said before should be considered a fatal mistake that at the very least ends a hunting career forever. But at least the hunter is out hunting and can be expected to be armed and looking for prey which he is licensed to shoot on sight. That is not at all the case here. The hunter's mistake, bad as it is, is a single one. This incident is an escalating chain of mistakes, bad judgment, and sloppy procedure.

Your argument, if taken a bit further, suggests that any initial mistake mitigates any subsequent malfeasance. If she had accidentally driven her car into someone's living room and he'd made gestures she thought were threatening, would she be entitled to draw her gun and kill him? I don't think so. At some point, what she thought, even if it's true, is irrelevant, because the homeowner was at home, and when his rights conflict with hers, his win.

Cop or armed citizen, a mistake at the beginning does not erase mistakes made further on. I don't think there's any way to spin this story to conclude that she might have had the right to kill him.
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Old 10th September 2018, 01:49 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by CTV News
...Citing an unidentified law enforcement official with direct knowledge of the case, The Dallas Morning News reported that Guyger had just ended a 15-hour shift when she returned in uniform to the South Side Flats apartment complex where both she and Jean lived.
Started out as a 12-hour shift, then jumped to 14 hours, and now it's 15!
Quote:
She parked on the fourth floor, instead of the third, where she lived, possibly suggesting that she was confused or disoriented.
So presumably that's the number of levels she drove up, and signage showing what level she actually parked on, that we can add to the apartment number she apparently didn't see...

ETA: Effectively beaten to it on both points by Elagabalus.

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Old 10th September 2018, 02:01 PM   #660
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
So presumably that's the number of levels she drove up, and signage showing what level she actually parked on, that we can add to the apartment number she apparently didn't see...
Tenants may also have assigned parking spaces. We don't know. If they do, then she may have put her car in the correct numbered space but on the wrong floor. Still, a person would tend to recognize the same cars always parked around their space. She would have seen all different cars.

I find it odd if she drives to/from the police station because it's literally only one block away. Maybe she is based out of some other station.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:04 PM   #661
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Update:
Quote:
“She inserted a unique door key, with an electronic chip, into the door key hole,” the affidavit says. “The door, which was slightly ajar prior to Guyger’s arrival, fully opened under the force of the key insertion.”

Once the door opened, Guyger saw Jean and believed he was an intruder.

“Guyger drew her firearm, gave verbal commands that were ignored by Jean,” the affidavit says. “As a result, Guyger fired her handgun two times striking (Jean) one time in the torso.”

I'd like to know way more about those "verbal commands:" "Get on the ground!" "Why?" Bang!
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/l...218154635.html

Apparently one shot missed, which means to me that she was probably a good distance from him. His neighbors should feel fortunate that somebody else wasn't killed by a stray bullet coming through the wallboard.

Prosecutors say murder charge possible.
Quote:
Prosecutors in Dallas will present their findings to a grand jury in the case of a police officer who fatally shot her neighbor in his apartment, raising the possibility that she could face additional charges, including murder.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/u...yger-jean.html
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:06 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
For a city of 1.2 million people that works out to $15 per annum per person*. Not really a huge expense.
A million here and a million there and it starts to add up.

Quote:
That said police officers in Dallas are well paid:
Yes, but not competitively paid. Put in a year or two in Dallas and then you can find a job with one of the dozen or so other forces within driving distance of your home and get a raise without even having to pack a box.

Also, the financial cost of this crime is likely down the road a bit. While it definitely has my attention as a taxpayer it probably isn't the major theme of this thread. Sorry for the personally motivated derail.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:08 PM   #663
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Tenants may also have assigned parking spaces. We don't know. If they do, then she may have put her car in the correct numbered space but on the wrong floor. Still, a person would tend to recognize the same cars always parked around their space. She would have seen all different cars.
...
Commercial garages often have different colors on different levels to make it easier for people to remember where they are. I wonder if this place does the same thing? If her unit is on the blue floor, and she drove to the green floor, that's more evidence of confusion or negligence.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:24 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Commercial garages often have different colors on different levels to make it easier for people to remember where they are. I wonder if this place does the same thing? If her unit is on the blue floor, and she drove to the green floor, that's more evidence of confusion or negligence.
The parking levels appear to be generically the same or at least don't have special colors. I'm sure there would be signs indicating what level you are on.

https://cdngeneral.rentcafe.com/dmsl...ashgallery.jpg


This is the 5th floor rooftop parking deck. No residences on this floor.

http://jpi.com/wp-content/uploads/SSFL-10.jpg
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:31 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I see the length of her shift keeps getting extended. First 12 hrs., then 14 and now 15!
Bastards! They're retroactively having her work more!
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:34 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Bastards! They're retroactively having her work more!
Maybe they'll claim she couldn't have shot anybody 'cause she was directing traffic across town.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:35 PM   #667
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Once the door opened, Guyger saw Jean and believed he was an intruder.
Well, he was right. Exactly the sort of home invasion that gun enthousiasts arm themselves to the teeth for.

Quote:
Apparently one shot missed, which means to me that she was probably a good distance from him.
From what I know of police accuracy, that doesn't follow.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:36 PM   #668
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I think it's possible that if this building doesn't have assigned spaces for each tenant she may not have been able to find an empty space on the 3rd floor (her floor) and so she drove up to the 4th floor. Then she may have "spaced out" and not realized that she'd have to take an elevator down one floor to get to her door. She'd walk into the tenant corridor on 4 but proceeds as if she is on 3. She'd then walk to the door that represents her apartment just as she does every day. But she is on 4, not 3.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:37 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Bastards! They're retroactively having her work more!
At this rate they'll eventually be able to bend time so that she can go back and stop herself from killing him. Or alternatively kill Sarah Connor. That should work.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:42 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, he was right. Exactly the sort of home invasion that gun enthousiasts arm themselves to the teeth for.

From what I know of police accuracy, that doesn't follow.
Yeah, they're not Wyatt Earp. But she can't claim he was rushing her or struggling for the gun either. If he was even 10 feet away, that leaves enough time to pause and assess.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:58 PM   #671
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I still think in all this argument one basic idea is not being addressed completely. The occupant was in his own home and her encounter with him was not in connection with a police matter. His rights prevail. He did not have any obligation at all to explain himself, to be polite or deferential, dressed or naked, armed or unarmed, sober or drunk, good or bad, understanding or clueless, aggressive or not aggressive. Her initial mistake makes every subsequent action of hers an extension of that mistake, even if her feelings are explicable and her subsequent mistakes understandable. ALL the burden was on her. If there is a conflict of rights, his stand and hers fall. Any spin that results in a homeowner who is murdered by a stranger in his own home being considered at fault is bizarre.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:07 PM   #672
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I still think in all this argument one basic idea is not being addressed completely. The occupant was in his own home and her encounter with him was not in connection with a police matter. His rights prevail. He did not have any obligation at all to explain himself, to be polite or deferential, dressed or naked, armed or unarmed, sober or drunk, good or bad, understanding or clueless, aggressive or not aggressive. Her initial mistake makes every subsequent action of hers an extension of that mistake, even if her feelings are explicable and her subsequent mistakes understandable. ALL the burden was on her. If there is a conflict of rights, his stand and hers fall. Any spin that results in a homeowner who is murdered by a stranger in his own home being considered at fault is bizarre.
He certainly didn't have any obligation to do anything. But if he had imagined that his own home was being invaded, and he had reached for his own gun, she -- who shouldn't even have been there at all -- would still have a right to defend herself. Her only possible defense is that she was legitimately scared for her life. There is no evidence to support that claim.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:09 PM   #673
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Is there any grass on the outdoor deck? I've heard that the real shooter was on the grassy knoll.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:12 PM   #674
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Question here: Most cops belong to strong unions. What does it take to fire a cop? I would think the Dallas chief could at this point say something like "We express no opinion about the ultimate legal resolution of this matter. But we have no confidence in an officer who has been charged with manslaughter, and therefore she is terminated effective today." Why would even other cops want her around?
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:15 PM   #675
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She's a good shot?
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:31 PM   #676
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It might be a negligence .. but it was criminal one. At minimum I would expect suspended sentence, paying damages, and she can't be cop anymore.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:34 PM   #677
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It might be a negligence .. but it was criminal one. At minimum I would expect suspended sentence, paying damages, and she can't be cop anymore.
Keeping things that go bang bang away from her might be an idea too
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:35 PM   #678
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It might be a negligence .. but it was criminal one. At minimum I would expect suspended sentence, paying damages, and she can't be cop anymore.
Suspended sentence? For killing an innocent guy? She doesn't need to go to jail forever, but a stay at the Graybar Motel should be mandatory. Civil damages are for sure; Dallas' lawyers are just going to negotiate the number. The city might try to claim that she wasn't acting as a cop, and shouldn't be liable; but they trained her, supervised her and handed her a gun, so that probably won't go far.

Last edited by Bob001; 10th September 2018 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:38 PM   #679
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Keeping things that go bang bang away from her might be an idea too
If she is convicted of a felony then I don't think she can own a gun.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:39 PM   #680
Dr.Sid
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Suspended sentence? For killing an innocent guy? She doesn't need to go to jail forever, but a stay at the Graybar Motel should be mandatory. Civil damages are for sure; Dallas' lawyers are just going to negotiate the number. The city might try to claim that she wasn't acting as a cop, and shouldn't be liable; but they trained her, supervised her and handed her a gun, so that probably won't go far.
Well for sure I don't know how such cases are handled in US. Here in Czech Republic, you can get suspended sentence even if you kill somebody. Like in car accident. You need serious mitigating circumstances, but it is possible. Short jailtime is more likely.
Anyway I'm saying 'at minimum'.
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