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Old 10th September 2018, 04:20 PM   #681
Fudbucker
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I think it's possible that if this building doesn't have assigned spaces for each tenant she may not have been able to find an empty space on the 3rd floor (her floor) and so she drove up to the 4th floor. Then she may have "spaced out" and not realized that she'd have to take an elevator down one floor to get to her door. She'd walk into the tenant corridor on 4 but proceeds as if she is on 3. She'd then walk to the door that represents her apartment just as she does every day. But she is on 4, not 3.
This is why I have trouble with this. That's a mistake anyone could make, and once it's made, it led to a tragedy, but at no part do I see her doing something a non-reasonable person would do. I'm assuming a scenario where the door is unlocked, the room is dark, the victim acts startled and doesn't listen to her orders or maybe rushes at her. We can blame her for picking the wrong floor, I guess, but not for what happened afterwards. Again, assuming the best possible scenario for her.
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:37 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This is why I have trouble with this. That's a mistake anyone could make, and once it's made, it led to a tragedy, but at no part do I see her doing something a non-reasonable person would do. I'm assuming a scenario where the door is unlocked, the room is dark, the victim acts startled and doesn't listen to her orders or maybe rushes at her. We can blame her for picking the wrong floor, I guess, but not for what happened afterwards. Again, assuming the best possible scenario for her.
Ok, then we can also come with the worst scenario. She hated the guy. He was letting his TV loud at night sometimes. She came from work after long shift and yep, she could hear the TV. She went to his apartment, and shot him. For extra flavor add some racial slurs, think Hollywood bad cop style.
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:45 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Ok, then we can also come with the worst scenario. She hated the guy. He was letting his TV loud at night sometimes. She came from work after long shift and yep, she could hear the TV. She went to his apartment, and shot him. For extra flavor add some racial slurs, think Hollywood bad cop style.
That is the biggest problem issue

One sides point of view is all anyone is going to here and people tend to embellish/gloss over things.

And frankly she could make up a completely fabricated version
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:13 PM   #684
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I'd like to know way more about those "verbal commands:" "Get on the ground!" "Why?" Bang!
I think that "Hands up!" would be the first verbal command and then maybe "On the floor face-down with your arms spread" would be next.

Surprise and confusion might cause him to just freeze without his arms moving at all.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:58 PM   #685
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Originally Posted by Star-Telegram
During a press conference on Monday evening, held by Jeans’ family attorney Lee Merritt, he scoffed at the narrative given in the affidavit.

“They’re trying to put this out to get sympathy from the public,” Merritt said.

He stated that his two witnesses, who are sisters that are residents of the apartment complex, gave statements that contradicted the affidavit.

“One happened to be in a quiet room reading a book so she was in the best position to hear things,” Merritt said. “She heard pounding at the door. The other one (witness) was in the living room (of her own apartment) watching TV she also heard the same pounding at the door.”

He said the key witness, who was reading the book, heard shouting, according to Merritt.

“She heard, ‘Let me in,’ followed by ‘Let me in,’ in an elevated tone and then she heard more pounding at the door,” said Merritt. “Then shortly thereafter she heard gunshots.”

The key witness went to her sister’s apartment to see what was going on and found her sister outside investigating the gunshots, Merritt stated. The key witness grabbed her sister and urged her not to continue investigating.

“The sister says, ‘No. It’s OK I see a law enforcement officer,’ thinking this was probably a controlled situation,” Merritt said.

He added that during his explanation of the two witnesses’ statements he missed a key detail. One of the witnesses said they heard what was likely Jean’s final words following the gunshots, according to Merritt.

“Which was, ‘Oh my god why did you do that?’ and there was nothing heard after,” Merritt said.

Merritt added that all of the indicators around Jeans’ apartment should have been clear indicators to Guyger that this was not her apartment.

“Not only at the front of his door (the red rug outside) but all around his apartment. This is his apartment this wasn’t her apartment,” Merritt said. “There wouldn’t be the same smell. There wouldn’t be the same furniture. There wouldn’t be the same lighting patterns. There would’ve been a number of identifying markers to alert her including the absence of her dog which she owns.”...

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.star-...218154635.html
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:58 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Ok, then we can also come with the worst scenario. She hated the guy. He was letting his TV loud at night sometimes. She came from work after long shift and yep, she could hear the TV. She went to his apartment, and shot him. For extra flavor add some racial slurs, think Hollywood bad cop style.
Yeah, but that's not the point. The point is that in the scenario I outlined, people here STILL want her prosecuted, even given the most favorable of conditions.

I don't get that.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:07 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Yeah, but that's not the point. The point is that in the scenario I outlined, people here STILL want her prosecuted, even given the most favorable of conditions.

I don't get that.
I know, crazy, right? All she did was kill someone! And people fuss so!
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:23 PM   #688
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I get that, in the context of her mistake, her subsequent actions were explicable and would have been reasonable if they had not been based on that mistake. But my point, which I maintain, is that her rights and his rights are mutually exclusive here, and his prevail. No matter how reasonable her actions would have been in another story, in the real world where he was in his own home and she was the invader I think it a fatally flawed mistake to apportion rights.

I can see her fear or her confusion as mitigation of some punishment, but not as mitigation of the charge. To suggest that her imagined fear resulting from a fatally stupid mistake diminishes the substance of the charge is a crazy diminution of a man's right not to be murdered in his own home.

And yes, I think she should be prosecuted. It's up to a separate process to decide a sentence, but that's a separate issue. She should at least be prosecuted, and I think it would be quite reasonable to make sure she's never again in a position to shoot someone.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:30 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I know, crazy, right? All she did was kill someone! And people fuss so!
For real! It's almost like they put her in some class of person that they have a particular contempt for, and would string her up for farting on an elevator!
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:37 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Yeah, but that's not the point. The point is that in the scenario I outlined, people here STILL want her prosecuted, even given the most favorable of conditions.

I don't get that.
How many oopses should she get before she should be prosecuted?
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:37 PM   #691
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The level of blind authoritarianism on display by certain posters in this thread boggles the mind.

"Might makes right", I suppose...
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:46 PM   #692
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USA Today reports:
Quote:
The Dallas police officer charged with manslaughter in the death of a black man she shot in his apartment last week thought she was in her own apartment and that the man was a burglar, a law enforcement official says...The official said Guyger told investigators she entered the dark apartment, saw someone inside and thought it was a burglary. Guyger said she pulled her gun and fired twice, the officials said. Link
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:49 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Wow. Three whole people.


Two of whom are actually engaging you, and the other of whom is actually professionally employed in showing where written documents can possibly be misinterpreted.


But you know, you do you.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:50 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
How many oopses should she get before she should be prosecuted?
Anything more than a hundred thousand separate incidents where she kills someone should open consideration for strike one against her.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:53 PM   #695
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So shoot first, ask questions later. All it would have taken was to call out "Police officer! Stop moving, I am armed!"
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:00 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
How many oopses should she get before she should be prosecuted?
Each one should be considered on its own merit- there is no upper or lower limit.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:02 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Yeah, but that's not the point. The point is that in the scenario I outlined, people here STILL want her prosecuted, even given the most favorable of conditions.

I don't get that.
Assume, for the sake of argument, she opened the door to her actual apartment and found an actual, unarmed burglar. Would she have been entitled to kill him on the spot?

You don't seem to get that we don't let people casually kill other people.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:11 PM   #698
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Assume, for the sake of argument, she opened the door to her actual apartment and found an actual, unarmed burglar. Would she have been entitled to kill him on the spot?

You don't seem to get that we don't let people casually kill other people.
That hypothetical leaves too much out for me to answer (I am aware it was not directed at me, if I am not welcome to answer just say so), so I offer you another:

Suppose, the situation was as described (dark, small apartment, both subjects believing they were in their own home- conceded that only one subject was correct in that assumption) would the lawful occupant have been in his rights to shoot her on the spot?
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:12 PM   #699
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Assume, for the sake of argument, she opened the door to her actual apartment and found an actual, unarmed burglar. Would she have been entitled to kill him on the spot?

You don't seem to get that we don't let people casually kill other people.
That's the theory. Reality says otherwise.

What really happens is that you will sometimes prosecute people who casually kill other people. The problem is, some people have to end up dead before that happens.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:19 PM   #700
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Yeah, but that's not the point. The point is that in the scenario I outlined, people here STILL want her prosecuted, even given the most favorable of conditions.

I don't get that.
She didn't make a mistake; she made several inexplicable mistakes. Parking on the wrong floor, somehow oblivious to signs which were certainly there. Walking to 'her' apartment, somehow missing the lighted apartment number, and for god's sake a bright red mat that she did not have. Her key did not work. The door she left locked was open. It's inexplicably difficult to have missed all that without snapping her out of whatever dazed state she was in, after a long day of serving warrants. You know, where you are carefully verifying addresses? Then, in the dark, she thinks she sees someone and starts shooting. Did you know your eyes can play tricks on you in the dark? I'll bet she does. Still opened fire in a residential building.

Even in the most favorable of interpretations, she killed a man, having no idea what was going on. She killed him in an apartment building, where personnel can be in your unit without notice. She killed him despite having formal training in how to apprehend suspects alive, and having the authority to do so. She killed him without the slightest regard for human life, because as far as she knew he was just a petty burglar. She killed him without any reported credible threat of imminent death to herself. She killed him because that was what she wanted to do.

What part of this is reasonable again?
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:21 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That hypothetical leaves too much out for me to answer (I am aware it was not directed at me, if I am not welcome to answer just say so), so I offer you another:

Suppose, the situation was as described (dark, small apartment, both subjects believing they were in their own home- conceded that only one subject was correct in that assumption) would the lawful occupant have been in his rights to shoot her on the spot?
I think the same questions would apply: Was the "intruder" armed? Was the resident in immediate danger or was it reasonable for him to think he was? Etc. As the lawful resident, he would have a stronger defense under the "castle" doctrine. But people have been prosecuted for things like shooting a drunk neighbor who enters the wrong house or a kid sneaking through a window after curfew.

Last edited by Bob001; 10th September 2018 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:30 PM   #702
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Of course she isn't going to get convicted. I'm amazed she even got charged.
Same here.



Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
City of Dallas taxpayers need to really think about maybe raising what we pay starting cops so that we can fill some of the 200 vacancies and avoid this sort of massive liability. Admitting that you are understaffed and overworking your existing staff is just a recipe for massive liability every time an officer screws up.
Interesting. You're thinking you'd actually be able to attract a higher quality of individual by offering more money rather than maybe just train cops better across the board?

As has been shown already, cops are paid pretty well and get generous benefits plus an extremely strong and obnoxious union at the backs that the rest of the country also deserves far more than government officials.



Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The fact the woman is a cop is irrelevant to me. I would argue the same thing if it was an armed citizen who did this. So far, this story isn't too different than one hunter at dusk honestly mistaking another for a deer. Not every hunter who accidentally kills someone gets prosecuted. Accidents happen, and sometimes people get killed when guns are involved.
She is *not* an average, run of the mill Josephine here. She's a highly trained police officer.

She absolutely must, as with every single other government employee, be held to far higher standards than the usual "hey, I'm just like y'all" sort of erroneous attitude.


Quote:
The cops treated her with kid gloves because she was a cop, but that's par for the course.
Thanks for highlighting another problem endemic in the system.



Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
He certainly didn't have any obligation to do anything. But if he had imagined that his own home was being invaded, and he had reached for his own gun, she -- who shouldn't even have been there at all -- would still have a right to defend herself. Her only possible defense is that she was legitimately scared for her life. There is no evidence to support that claim.
I'm gonna disagree that even in your statement here, she still did not have a right to self-defense. It's a similar concept to the idea that an instigator of a violent fight, for example, cannot throw a punch and then when punched back, claim self-defense by pulling a knife and gutting the person originally punched.

She was still in the wrong place; she still had no authority nor reason to be there; she was in every respect, the instigator of violence by drawing a firearm in the first place. He was and is in the right even if he pulled a gun first and fired at her.

Also this brings up the fact that the gun is the go-to implement for nearly every circumstance. They have batons, mace, tasers, and hand to hand training, but first sign of trouble, zip! out comes the blaster.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:52 PM   #703
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Latest weirdness: The cop is claiming that she didn't know she was in the wrong place until she called 911 and looked at the apartment number.
Quote:
According to the new documents, Guyger, 30, told Texas Ranger David Armstrong that her door was ajar when she arrived at her downtown Dallas apartment. She saw a “large silhouette” inside, drew her handgun and gave “verbal commands that were ignored” by Jean, 26. Guyger pulled the trigger, hitting Jean in the torso. He died of the injury hours later.

Guyger told investigators that she called 911, first turning on the lights while on the call. “Upon being asked where she was located by emergency dispatchers, Guyger returned to the front door to observe the address and discovered she was at the wrong apartment,” the affidavit said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...?noredirect=on

So now she's claiming she didn't know her own address?
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:01 PM   #704
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I'm sorry, but a 14 hour shift of mostly sitting on your ass in a police car, does not excuse forgetting your own ******* address.

I've worked 14 hours of exhausting manual labour a thousand times (often with something like 3 to 5 hours of sleep the night before), but not even once did it turn me into a blithering idiot incapable of finding my way home.

This is utter BS from one end to the other.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:03 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Latest weirdness: The cop is claiming that she didn't know she was in the wrong place until she called 911 and looked at the apartment number.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...?noredirect=on

So now she's claiming she didn't know her own address?
No. She's not claiming that.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0


When do you think she figured out she was at the wrong place?
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:04 PM   #706
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
I'm sorry, but a 14 hour shift of mostly sitting on your ass in a police car, does not excuse forgetting your own ******* address.

This is utter BS from one end to the other.
I agree ... at her age I had a job in construction working 12 hours a day, 7 days week with a two and a half hour commute EACH way, for almost 3 months straight ... and i found my house every night
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:07 PM   #707
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I am told by law enforcement officers that this description will likely be a key in officer Guyger’s defense:
“Guyger drew her firearm, gave verbal commands that were ignored by...” the victim Botham Jean.
Good ******* lord! They're going for the you're not required to obey the verbal commands of an unlawful intruder in my own home unless you're black defense.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:11 PM   #708
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No. She's not claiming that.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0


When do you think she figured out she was at the wrong place?

From the link:
Quote:
“Upon being asked where she was located by emergency dispatchers, Guyger returned to the front door to observe the address and discovered she was at the wrong apartment,” the affidavit said.

It may be the phrasing, but it sure sounds like she didn't realize she was in the wrong place until after she looked at the number. Let's hope that's not true.

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Old 10th September 2018, 08:21 PM   #709
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
I agree ... at her age I had a job in construction working 12 hours a day, 7 days week with a two and a half hour commute EACH way, for almost 3 months straight ... and i found my house every night
Yep. I worked as a farm hand and in logging for years. The hours were crazy at times, and the work would break your back.

And yet I never forgot where to go to find my own bed at night. I even managed to not shoot anyone dead in their own home too.

I guess I deserve some kinda ******* medal.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:22 PM   #710
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
From the link:
It may be the phrasing, but it sure sounds like she didn't realize she was in the wrong place until after she looked at the number. Let's hope that's not true.
If the truth does not come out (IMO) THIS will be her defence ... the defence will present, that in her mind at that time, it WAS her apartment.

If that is accepted, it's possible, she will be covered by any laws, and/or case history, of someone defending their home ... exactly as if he was actually IN her real apartment.

How possible?? I don't know like most of us I'm no expert
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:26 PM   #711
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
From the link:



It may be the phrasing, but it sure sounds like she didn't realize she was in the wrong place until after she looked at the number. Let's hope that's not true.
That is nonsensical sounding.
If she thought she was in her own apartment, she wouldn't need to look at the door number.
If she forgot her apartment number, looking at the door would not make her realize that she was in the wrong number (because she had forgotten it anyway), and if she needed to look because she knew the apartment was not hers then she would not have "discovered" anything new by looking at the door.

The only way it makes sense is if the police were already at her actual address, and we're asking her where she was.
Something like:
them: "where are you?"
Her: "408, my apartment"
Them: " we are at 408 and no one is here"
Her: "what?" -goes to look at door and discovers she is not in her
apartment
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Last edited by Distracted1; 10th September 2018 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:30 PM   #712
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
"where are you?"
Her: "408, my apartment"
Them: " we are at 408 and no one is here"
Her: "what?"goes to look at door and discovers she is not in her apartment
Possible THAT is how all the cops will remember it during court?
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:30 PM   #713
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Yep. I worked as a farm hand and in logging for years. The hours were crazy at times, and the work would break your back.

And yet I never forgot where to go to find my own bed at night. I even managed to not shoot anyone dead in their own home too.

I guess I deserve some kinda ******* medal.
What was it like living in an apartment with near identical floors containing long rows of near identical doors?
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:32 PM   #714
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
Possible THAT is how all the cops will remember it during court?
Possible even that that is what actually happened.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:32 PM   #715
Lambchops
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That is nonsensical sounding.
If she thought she was in her own apartment, she wouldn't need to look at the door number.
If she forgot her apartment number, looking at the door would not make her realize that she was in the wrong number (because she had forgotten it anyway), and if she needed to look because she knew the apartment was not hers then she would not have "discovered" anything new by looking at the door.

The only way it makes sense is if the police were already at her actual address, and we're asking her where she was.
Something like:
them: "where are you?"
Her: "408, my apartment"
Them: " we are at 408 and no one is here"
Her: "what?" -goes to look at door and discovers she is not in her
apartment
Ah yes, the poor little dear was so tired from sitting on her ass drinking coffe and eating donuts for half a day, no wonder she couldn't find her way home and happened to kill another human being in his own appartment.

Oh well, **** happens, right? Whoopsie.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:34 PM   #716
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Possible even that that is what actually happened.
We will never know ...
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:35 PM   #717
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Ah yes, the poor little dear was so tired from sitting on her ass drinking coffe and eating donuts for half a day, no wonder she couldn't find her way home and happened to kill another human being in his own appartment.

Oh well, **** happens, right? Whoopsie.
Obviously biased hyperbole aside.

Yes, **** sometimes does happen.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:35 PM   #718
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
....
The only way it makes sense is if the police were already at her actual address, and we're asking her where she was.
Something like:
them: "where are you?"
Her: "408, my apartment"
Them: " we are at 408 and no one is here"
Her: "what?" -goes to look at door and discovers she is not in her apartment
All things considered, that doesn't sound impossible.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:37 PM   #719
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Yeah, but that's not the point. The point is that in the scenario I outlined, people here STILL want her prosecuted, even given the most favorable of conditions.

I don't get that.
If the victim does have a distinct red rug in front of his door, and the shooter does not, then there is absolutely no possibility that this all stemmed from a reasonable misunderstanding.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:38 PM   #720
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What was it like living in an apartment with near identical floors containing long rows of near identical doors?
This is BS, and you know it. It's not like she had been awake for three or four days.

14 hours at work is nothing. Or are you saying most people are delirious and unaccountable for their actions after being awake for 16-18 hours? Which is basically a normal day for any semi-functional human?
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