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Tags cycling , LGBT issues , Rachel McKinnon , sports incidents , sports issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 16th October 2018, 01:55 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And age groups as well--the guy in the OP won the age 35-39 championship.
Which brings up another parallel: is it OK to have, say, a 25 year old cyclist enter a 50 to 60 year old division if they "identify" as being older?
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Old 16th October 2018, 01:55 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Would it bother you if an adult entered and won a writing contest meant for children? Would you be confused about why it bothered other people?
Would he spend more time than anyone else in the thread posting about the subject to insist it isn't worth talking about?
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Old 16th October 2018, 01:57 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Would it bother you if an adult entered and won a writing contest meant for children? Would you be confused about why it bothered other people?
"Bother" me? I would think the adult was misguided and possibly mentally ill, and probably feel pity for them. If they had to compete against children they can't have thought much of their own work.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:01 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Would he spend more time than anyone else in the thread posting about the subject to insist it isn't worth talking about?
Sigh. I'm disagreeing with the valuation of the bicycle race and the subsequent need for outrage. I'm not saying nobody should be speaking about it.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Would he spend more time than anyone else in the thread posting about the subject to insist it isn't worth talking about?
TM wants someone to justify this in broader terms, so I'll go ahead and give a broader justification.

Here's the fundamental question at stake: is it OK to use categories for people? Can these categories be objective, or can they only be subjective?

Rachel McKinnon is basically arguing that you cannot use objective categories for people, only subjective categories are acceptable. At the moment, that view is being applied to something "trivial" and "unimportant". But this is just the camel's nose. It won't end here.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:03 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Bother" me? I would think the adult was misguided and possibly mentally ill, and probably feel pity for them. If they had to compete against children they can't have thought much of their own work.
That answers my first question, but not my second one.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:05 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
TM wants someone to justify this in broader terms, so I'll go ahead and give a broader justification.

Here's the fundamental question at stake: is it OK to use categories for people? Can these categories be objective, or can they only be subjective?

Rachel McKinnon is basically arguing that you cannot use objective categories for people, only subjective categories are acceptable. At the moment, that view is being applied to something "trivial" and "unimportant". But this is just the camel's nose. It won't end here.
And what is the end of this slippery slope you're envisioning? Will it spread as far as women's badminton competitions? Croquet championships? My god, even...ice dancing?!
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:06 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That answers my first question, but not my second one.
It would confuse me if people made a hugely disproportionate fuss about it.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:09 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Sigh. I'm disagreeing with the valuation of the bicycle race and the subsequent need for outrage. I'm not saying nobody should be speaking about it.
Who here is arguing that this justifies any particular level of outrage?

Everyone except you is saying that it's worth discussing and you're arguing against them.

Sigh indeed.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:10 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Who here is arguing that this justifies any particular level of outrage?

Everyone except you is saying that it's worth discussing and you're arguing against them.

Sigh indeed.
I'm saying it's not worth fussing about, not that it's not worth discussing.

Accept that your brilliant gotcha (and very original emoticon) just don't work this time.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:14 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And what is the end of this slippery slope you're envisioning? Will it spread as far as women's badminton competitions? Croquet championships? My god, even...ice dancing?!
If you're not interested in taking this conversation seriously, I certainly can't make you. But pretending there isn't more at stake won't make it so.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:16 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It would confuse me if people made a hugely disproportionate fuss about it.
Clearly you don't have much experience with humans. Most of our fusses are disproportionate, why would this be any different?
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:18 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you're not interested in taking this conversation seriously, I certainly can't make you. But pretending there isn't more at stake won't make it so.
That's the second time you've declared that I'm not being serious, and ordered me to leave the thread. I wonder which came first: your psychic mindreading ability, or your authority on this board? I hope you don't abuse your power for evil.

As for your links, no, it does not necessarily follow that a given individual winning a bicycle race leads to insurance underwriting changes and rape. In the first instance, insurance underwriting probably shouldn't be permitted to discriminate based on sex anyway. In the second instance, prison mismanagement that permits violence is a problem regardless of the sexes of the prisoners.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:20 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Clearly you don't have much experience with humans. Most of our fusses are disproportionate, why would this be any different?
Because the proper response to the ridiculous is amusement or perplexity, not anger.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:31 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That's the second time you've declared that I'm not being serious, and ordered me to leave the thread.
I never ordered you to leave the thread. I suggested what was proper to do (as have you), but that doesn't constitute an order, which I am not in a position to make or enforce.

Quote:
As for your links, no, it does not necessarily follow that a given individual winning a bicycle race leads to insurance underwriting changes and rape.
Who said anything about anything necessarily following? I'm discussing what questions are at stake. And it's the same question in all these cases. They are related, even if they don't absolutely determine the outcome of each other.

Quote:
In the first instance, insurance underwriting probably shouldn't be permitted to discriminate based on sex anyway.
The beneficiaries of that discrimination are likely to feel otherwise, but perhaps.

Quote:
In the second instance, prison mismanagement that permits violence is a problem regardless of the sexes of the prisoners.
And you can't imagine how making gender arbitrary could exacerbate that problem?
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:33 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because the proper response to the ridiculous is amusement or perplexity, not anger.
Humans frequently don't do what is proper. If this confuses you (and you expressed confusion), then you don't understand humans.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:50 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
In the greater scheme of things exactly how important are sporting competitions? What is the downside to Person A winning Event B instead of Person C? These are games, aren't they? By definition recreation, not work?
I'd guess they're important for people competing and people watching.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:50 PM   #58
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Ok, instead of grouping races by sex or gender, we now need to group the races by Chromosome. XX,XY,extra, less, indeterminate. Problem solved. Maybe. Can you identify as different chromosome?
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:53 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Very likely. Unfortunately fairness is not guaranteed in life. A competitor with 0.02 percent better lung capacity has an unfair advantage over one who does not. Who decides where the lines of fairness should be drawn?
All true. Presumably you have no objection to abolishing weight classes and male-female segregation in sports?

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Suppose your doomsday scenario occurs, and women don't win these contests.

And? What's the harm in that? Aside from hurt feelings?
I love how it's ok to discriminate against 49.85% of the population, but not against 0.15%. According to your post, that is.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And the continued existence of a particular sport is important why? And so is the ability of some people to make money from it?
Dude, are you bobbing the threat right now?
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:57 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Indeed. I don't see how women tolerate being placed in a separate-but-equal league in which their triumphs are necessarily appended with "that's great!...for a woman".
Oh, well if you think trans people should be in their own league, that's worth discussing.
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Old 16th October 2018, 02:59 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It would confuse me if people made a hugely disproportionate fuss about it.
Gee, I don't understand basic human behaviour. I'm so confused, really guys!
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Old 16th October 2018, 03:17 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Ok, instead of grouping races by sex or gender, we now need to group the races by Chromosome. XX,XY,extra, less, indeterminate. Problem solved. Maybe. Can you identify as different chromosome?
I never understood why, even if we accept that gender/sex are distinct concepts, that takes the option of separating things by biological sex off the table.
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Old 16th October 2018, 03:29 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I debated putting this in sports, but it seems to be more appropriate for a social issues and current events thread.



Note that in the photo accompanying the article, McKinnon does not appear to be presenting himself as a female, and the text makes it clear that he's operating with testosterone:



So all those radio ads have been lying to me?

My take? This is going to be a thorny issue for sports and society. I don't doubt that elite male athletes can defeat elite female athletes in virtually every sport. You may think that few men would compete in a women's event; to a large degree that depends on the money involved. Women's tennis players make as much as men; some guy ranked 700th in the world on the men's side would probably vault easily into the top position on the women's tour. Especially if it doesn't require you to do any surgical changes or have hormone treatments.

To me, the whole point of having women and men compete separately is so that the women can experience the joy of winning or at least having a chance to win.
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Old 16th October 2018, 04:08 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Suppose your doomsday scenario occurs, and women don't win these contests.

And? What's the harm in that? Aside from hurt feelings?

Every time someone comes up with a 'valid' reason to discriminate it always turns out to be over some trivial activity. Beauty contests. Acting jobs. Winning at sport contests.
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Old 16th October 2018, 04:35 PM   #65
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Suck it up, gender is a social construct....isn't that what they say?

End gender segregation in sports....now

Come on feminists, isn't it sexist not to? Here's your equal playing field. Have fun.

We've been trying for decades to get more girls into freestyle BMX. There was a lot of armchair philosophy about them being better at gymnasitcs or flexibility or something, so they should have a good shot at totally dominating flatland and it just hasn't happened. But I can say at least its a hell of a lot closer than it seems to be in other sports. The best female flatlanders, in no uncertain terms, beat the living crap out of me. The best female street and ramp riders on the other hand, don't stand a chance on my worst IBS dominated day, and the worst competing males in street and ramps beat the hell out of me worse than that
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Old 16th October 2018, 06:02 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
... To me, the whole point of having women and men compete separately is so that the women can experience the joy of winning or at least having a chance to win.

So by that logic, weight classes in boxing, wrestling, MMA, etc., are merely feel-good measures to allow the small fry to have a chance to win and experience the feeling of victory as well.

Should minor leagues celebrate “championships” when clearly there are superior pro teams? Why do we class athletes by age? Should we dismiss the Senior PGA tour as a bunch of desperate old has-beens competing separately just so they can experience the joy of winning or at least having a chance to win?

It’s interesting to me that accommodations that are so routinely extended to men become such a troublesome conundrum when women want to participate.
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Old 16th October 2018, 06:06 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
So by that logic, weight classes in boxing, wrestling, MMA, etc., are merely feel-good measures to allow the small fry to have a chance to win and experience the feeling of victory as well.
Eeeerrrrrr.... yeah.

Was anybody ever under any illusions they were anything but?

I mean "feel good" might not be the exact way I'd word it but they exist so bigger guys don't just dominate the sport.
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Old 16th October 2018, 06:13 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This is a stupid question trying to masquerade as a clever question, and failing.

It's important to the people who enjoyed watching the sport because people value enjoyment. It's important to the people who make a living from the sport because that's how they earn the money they need to live. No deeper answer is necessary.

The fact that it may not be important to anyone else doesn't stop it from being important to them. This should be obvious, it shouldn't need explaining. If you are indifferent to the issue (and I make no claim that you shouldn't be), then the logical choice is to not participate in the discussion. Crapping on others for having an interest in something you have no interest in isn't enlightened.
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Old 16th October 2018, 06:19 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post



Dude, are you bobbing the threat right now?
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Old 16th October 2018, 06:19 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Eeeerrrrrr.... yeah.

Was anybody ever under any illusions they were anything but?

I mean "feel good" might not be the exact way I'd word it but they exist so bigger guys don't just dominate the sport.

Exactly. We traditionally created accommodations of all sorts to allow men to compete and win even though they were nowhere near the best.

So there should be no question why women enjoy similar accommodations that allow them to compete and win even though they were nowhere near the best.
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Old 16th October 2018, 08:37 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
In the greater scheme of things exactly how important are sporting competitions? What is the downside to Person A winning Event B instead of Person C? These are games, aren't they? By definition recreation, not work?
Exactly, why is it so important that the trans person play? Is just a game, she can go do something important.
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Old 16th October 2018, 08:38 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Some people make careers from singing, playing video games, or performing magic tricks. That doesn't make those things terribly important activities for everyone.



Very likely. Unfortunately fairness is not guaranteed in life. A competitor with 0.02 percent better lung capacity has an unfair advantage over one who does not. Who decides where the lines of fairness should be drawn?
Governing body of the sport.

More important is how they decide this. With logic and reason, or due to bullying and shame?
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Old 16th October 2018, 09:28 PM   #73
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Strip her.
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Old 16th October 2018, 09:36 PM   #74
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Paralympics. Different classes based on ability to win. And the public are expected to watch and enjoy the competitons - and no doubt many of them do.
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Old 17th October 2018, 01:15 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Indeed. I don't see how women tolerate being placed in a separate-but-equal league in which their triumphs are necessarily appended with "that's great!...for a woman".
How do you feel about weight classes?
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Old 17th October 2018, 01:26 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Exactly. We traditionally created accommodations of all sorts to allow men to compete and win even though they were nowhere near the best.

So there should be no question why women enjoy similar accommodations that allow them to compete and win even though they were nowhere near the best.
Well, I think it depends on how you define "the best". In a martial arts competition the winner of a lighter weight class may be the best technically, but because of size advantage someone in a higher weight class would dominate him. Having a way to compete to see who is has the best technique seems useful to me. Of course it's flawed because within a weight class there are also other factors that come into play: even at the same size speed, power, etc. are not necessarily equal, but we still get to see people competing more on the basis of technique than raw size.

That's similarly true of segregating the genders. Women with everything in place except for the size, strength, or other athletic advantages of men can have a place to compete on the basis of skill.
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Old 17th October 2018, 02:16 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Didn't they used to try to sneak men into women's events back in the day?
I think it was more the case that some Eastern Bloc countries pumped their female athletes so full of steroids and/or hormones that the ended up looking a bit too butch. At least one ended up transitioning as a result.
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Old 17th October 2018, 02:41 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
So by that logic, weight classes in boxing, wrestling, MMA, etc., are merely feel-good measures to allow the small fry to have a chance to win and experience the feeling of victory as well.

Should minor leagues celebrate “championships” when clearly there are superior pro teams? Why do we class athletes by age? Should we dismiss the Senior PGA tour as a bunch of desperate old has-beens competing separately just so they can experience the joy of winning or at least having a chance to win?
Yes, no, to give athlletes who are young or past prime a chance and yes, although in the case of the PGA Tour they have the advantage of being known quantities.

Quote:
It’s interesting to me that accommodations that are so routinely extended to men become such a troublesome conundrum when women want to participate.
What?
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Old 17th October 2018, 03:00 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
The deliberative body that oversees the sport I assume.
I think everyone understands that fairness isn't guaranteed. The heart of the debate is to whom do you award the fairness?

The transgender who wants to be treated as a female, or the female who wants to compete against only other females.
Surely just up to the governing body of whatever sport says? Many sports governing bodies have had to make rules about who is eligible for decades based on "biology" (East German woman's shot putters come to mind).

It will probably take a few years but I'm sure they'll come up with new and still arbitrary rules and the fuss will disappear.
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Old 17th October 2018, 03:05 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Pretty damned important to the people taking part. Like all-encompassing. More hours and effort than anyone in a normal job ever puts in. The one expectation that they all have is that they'll be competing on an equal footing. That there'll be fairness.
But fairness is entirely a personal view, is it fair that one person competing in a sport can dedicate 100 % of their time because they have a trust fund that supports them whilst someone else has to to work full time so can only dedicate 30% of their time?

Sport is choc-a-bloc with unfairness from top to bottom yet is doesn't seem to suffer from a lack of participation or interest.
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