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Old 9th December 2020, 11:09 PM   #2441
PartSkeptic
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
What about parents who tell young children that Santa Claus exists and it was him that brought them their Christmas presents?

That's a lie. A deliberate untruth told to a child. And not done to stop them from an attacker or stop some ugly crime or other.

Do you think that's ethically unacceptable?

Your posts are too full of anecdotes and claims about how great your memory is (or was), how you have outsmarted college professors, how intelligent you are etc.

I've been online for long enough to recognise these as the desperate attempts of someone trying to convince someone of woo, and bigging themselves up in the process by trying to convince the people disagreeing with them what an awesome person they are in an attempt to salvage or create some credibility.

It isn't working.

Your posts are also full of rambling irrelevant anecdotes that bear no relation to the matter at hand, while simultaneously you make excuses for not having time to actually address the criticisms directed at you. Even times JayUtah makes a thoughtful post addressing your specific claims you just brush it off as being too long to read.

How long has it been since you claimed you'd perform your WiFi test to prove that they were the cause of your symptoms? It's been months but all we've had in that time is you making excuses for not doing the tests, complicating the tests by adding confounding factors, you've gotten plenty of help in how you might perform the test. But so far, no tests actually done. Just excuses and procrastination.

Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are invented entities to entertain children. Theirs is a world of wonder and delight, and adult enjoy their laughter and imagination. It does not qualify as a lie. No more than the movies we all watch qualify as lies.

God is not an invented entity. Adults take religion seriously. It is an explanation of the Universe that fits many supernatural events. Science admits it has no answer. Some people start with the assumption that God does not exist and then try to make some sort of explanation fit.

One person said he was forced into lying by a nosy person asking about a purchase. There are two easy ways to answer without lying. One is to be vague "Oh, this and that". The other is to reply with a question "Why do you ask?"

I do agree that complete honesty can be a problem. Take the movie "The invention of lying." White lies are intended to avoid conflict and distress. Once more, it is possible to give a positive answer without lying. It takes intelligence to do. One has to see what the problem is and quickly respond to the other person in a way that is helpful.

I was asked under oath to reply "yes or no". I told the judge the answer was not one of those, and what should I do. I was allowed to answer my way - the truth.

I have explained why I felt pressured into discussing my abilities. You distort it into something that it is not. That does not make your opinion correct.

I cannot do a experiment that has variables I cannot control. One is the amount of radiation and the other is an underlying medical condition such as sinusitis that the radiation amplifies to give pain. Those factors were discovered while setting up the parameters. Why bang on about it?

I give people here examples of supernatural events. Then attempt to answer the objections. I learn a lot about some people react to such anecdotes. You don't like it. You have your denials of the supernatural all mapped out and I don't fit the profile of the usual suspects. Tough.

BTW. Once more on holiday. Forecast was for a week of rainy weather. Only slight rain the first day. Otherwise ideal weather for the game park. Cloudy and cool breezes. Fantastic sightings.
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Old 9th December 2020, 11:17 PM   #2442
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Which doesn't match your symptoms.



Having finally managed to skim the report on which these news articles are based, I would have to say the authors of it don't consider it nearly as conclusive as you seem to think it is. Or conclusive at all, to be honest. Of the four potential causes they considered, the speculated effects of pulsed-power RF matched the symptoms the closest. However, they caution the reader not to accept this as a determination of cause, because the statistical correlation is very low. Further, the symptomology data they had to work with was sparse and not very well controlled due to the sporadic methods by which it was collected.

Sorry, but the media's attempts to hype up the science just doesn't match the science.

Once more, it is politically incorrect to say it is microwaves, and the conclusion was always going to be speculative. However, they have decided the probability is pulsed microwave (note "pulsed"). No other theory fits the facts. They had to rely on early reports of the effects of microwaves because of the suppression and censorship of recent science.

Minimize it all you like. You do not agree and find ways to support your disagreement.
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Old 9th December 2020, 11:27 PM   #2443
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are invented entities to entertain children.
Irrelevant. Inventing fantasies to satisfy your life needs makes no difference in whether the participants are adults or children. By the way, both Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny have their roots in stories and rituals made up by adults for adults.

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God is not an invented entity. Adults take religion seriously.
There are children who take Santa Clause just as seriously as adults take their gods. And there is exactly as much evidence that one is real as for the other.

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It is an explanation of the Universe that fits many supernatural events.
No, it's speculation. Explaining something by inventing magic is not an explanation.

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Science admits it has no answer.
Science declines to draw a conclusion unless the evidence supports one. Religion just makes crap up and demands special privileges for believing in it.

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Some people start with the assumption that God does not exist...
As is proper to do. Existential questions require affirmative proof.

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I cannot do a experiment that has variables I cannot control.
A number of experienced scientists have spent an enormous amount of time and energy explaining how you can construct a viable experiment. After months of fruitless engagement, we've concluded you're simply not interested in a meaningful test of your claims.

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Why bang on about it?
Because you won't stop demanding that your explanation must be correct.

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I give people here examples of supernatural events.
You tell unverifiable anecdotes that you demand must have supernatural explanations. Then, very often, you change your story to avoid reasonable explanations.

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...I don't fit the profile of the usual suspects. Tough.
No, the problem is that you fit exactly the profile of the usual suspects, but you somehow think you're fooling everyone to the contrary. You're not even very good at faking to be a prophet or a clairvoyant.
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Old 9th December 2020, 11:32 PM   #2444
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
However, they have decided the probability is pulsed microwave (note "pulsed"). No other theory fits the facts.
They expressly refused to draw that conclusion. As I said, of the four causes they considered, the one of the four that fit the best was pulsed-power microwaves. That doesn't make it an objectively good fit. And they specifically said considerably more work is needed to identify and test other potential causes.

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They had to rely on early reports of the effects of microwaves because of the suppression and censorship of recent science.
No, that was not their claim.

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Minimize it all you like. You do not agree and find ways to support your disagreement.
The way I found to support my disagreement was to read the actual report, from a background of considerable training and experience in the experimental sciences. You didn't do that. You simply cited a journalist's rather inaccurate summary of it. As usual, you can't grasp the science.
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Old 9th December 2020, 11:39 PM   #2445
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
(note "pulsed")
Note that the pulse frequency, base wavelength, and power levels associated with claims of RF-induced physical symptoms are not even in the same ballpark as the same parameters as they are expressed in the 5G transmission protocol.

So you describe an illness that bears almost no resemblance to yours, and a proposed cause that has little to do with what you claim operates in your case. You're waving your hands frantically trying to read conclusive proof into one overused word, and you absolutely refuse to go into any detail that would require you to display correct understanding of either phenomenon.
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Old 9th December 2020, 11:51 PM   #2446
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are invented entities to entertain children.
I'll tell Saint Nicholas of Myra, (Santa), who fought against child prostitution that he didn't exist. The irony being St Nicholas is real compared to your fantasy fairy tales.

////////////////////////

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
God is not an invented entity.
Which fictional god do you mean? In Shanidar in Iran, we have Neanderthals burying each other with flowers, 65,000 years ago. It's called equity theory in psychology and even today Christians think Jesus died for our sins....like the flowers had to die and be buried....to help the dead...so the living will be luckier.

///////

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I do agree that complete honesty can be a problem.
You should. You just lied about St Nicolas not existing .
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Old 10th December 2020, 12:08 AM   #2447
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
I'll tell Saint Nicholas of Myra...
Fun fact: in my much-younger days I was a volunteer restoration worker on the Basilica of St. Nicholas in Bari, Italy, under the tutelage of Roy Sarafian Armen, who tragically passed away not long after our collaboration. Yes, he (St. Nicholas, not Roy) is the patron of children, but also the patron of unmarried persons and students, of which I was, at the time, both.

Of course, over time, history passed into legend and then into children's stories. But indeed the persona of St. Nicholas was invoked principally for the comfort and entertainment of adults for centuries before he transformed into the comical caricature of Thomas Nast's 19th century Santa Claus. But indeed, St. Nicholas -- the real person -- was quite well known for bestowing gifts upon children.

While we eschew the literal reality of Nast's chimney-traversing elf, Nast was simply playing on stories that already existed -- stories made up by adults to convince themselves of the saintliness of another adult as part of a larger, well-established (though entirely speculative) religious belief system. There is literally nothing wrong with comparing stories pertaining to Sant Claus to stories pertaining to God.
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Old 10th December 2020, 12:35 AM   #2448
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Still no verifiable prediction, I see. Either specify dates and numbers or go away, because you'll never earn the slightest credence here without them.

I even suggested some once, but you refused to be pinned down as usual.

Here is an anecdote to explain the difference between "verifiable prediction" and "inside information".

When on my first army camp (after doing basic training) the officers asked for volunteers to be a truck driver. The accepted "information" about this duty was that one had be there early and then stay late to clean the trucks. However, I was singled out by a person on the "inside" who told me that being a driver gave one special privileges. "Volunteer, you won't be sorry." Most of the drivers were Jewish and smart. I was "chosen" to join that elite group.

He was right. We were more privileged than the officers and had greater freedom. Check your movies and TV about the Jewish sergeants that schemed and almost ran the place. "Phil Silver" was a standout, but it is a theme among many movies.

So here I have "inside information" about God and the afterlife. I do not have the verifiable specifics that one wants to prove one can tell the future. But when something lifechanging is about to happen, one can scoff or one can take an interest and do something.

People have saved their lives by a careful consideration of information and the source. In this case, one can perhaps save their soul.
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Old 10th December 2020, 12:43 AM   #2449
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Fun fact: in my much-younger days I was a volunteer restoration worker on the Basilica of St. Nicholas in Bari, Italy, under the tutelage of Roy Sarafian Armen, who tragically passed away not long after our collaboration. Yes, he (St. Nicholas, not Roy) is the patron of children, but also the patron of unmarried persons and students, of which I was, at the time, both.

Of course, over time, history passed into legend and then into children's stories. But indeed the persona of St. Nicholas was invoked principally for the comfort and entertainment of adults for centuries before he transformed into the comical caricature of Thomas Nast's 19th century Santa Claus. But indeed, St. Nicholas -- the real person -- was quite well known for bestowing gifts upon children.

While we eschew the literal reality of Nast's chimney-traversing elf, Nast was simply playing on stories that already existed -- stories made up by adults to convince themselves of the saintliness of another adult as part of a larger, well-established (though entirely speculative) religious belief system. There is literally nothing wrong with comparing stories pertaining to Sant Claus to stories pertaining to God.

Having a grain of historical truth to an imagined fantasy does not change the fact that today, when a child is told of the (false) existence of Santa Claus, it is fantasy to entertain and amuse.

The afterlife is one of the most enduring beliefs of humankind. A super spirit (God or Gods) is closely related. Shamans were able to do something even when it seemed hopeless. This is not a grain of truth but a huge enormous history of supernatural happenings. You can try all you like to equate the two but is it like comparing a mountain to a molehill.
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Old 10th December 2020, 12:43 AM   #2450
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
So here I have "inside information" about God and the afterlife.
Your claim to have "inside information" requires justification. Everything I know, including your posting history, is evidence against it. As you are unable to provide a shred of evidence for it, I can simply dismiss it. And do.
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Last edited by Pixel42; 10th December 2020 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 10th December 2020, 12:56 AM   #2451
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Adults take religion seriously. It is an explanation of the Universe that fits many supernatural events.
There is no objective evidence that a supernatural event has ever occurred, so no explanation of them is required.

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Science admits it has no answer.
Science does not know everything, but that is not an excuse to wilfully ignore everything it does know.
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Old 10th December 2020, 04:55 AM   #2452
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Science does not know everything, but that is not an excuse to wilfully ignore everything it does know.
But PS doesn't ignore everything science knows. He's quite happy to cite some research if he thinks it will support his claims.
I think, for PS, that real science is that which agrees with what he thinks, and fake science is that which contradicts him.
In much the same way, the only true religion is the one he believes, and the religions other people believe are all false.
Pure confirmation bias, basically.
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Old 10th December 2020, 06:07 AM   #2453
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I think every time someone says "science admits it has no answer," they're showing a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is. They appear to think it's some equivalent of whatever book they happen to hold holy, that someone in search of answers can just flip through until they can say "oh, here it is, Book V, chapter 3, verse eleventy- bees don't have knees, so, there ya go."

Science isn't a closed book of answers that's in competition with any particular religion's tome- it's an open-ended process for finding answers, that's starts by knowing how to frame the questions. "I believe in an afterlife- where is it, and how do I get there?" isn't the kind of framing that will get you answers any more supportable than being what the questioner wants to hear.
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Last edited by turingtest; 10th December 2020 at 06:28 AM. Reason: emphasis
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Old 10th December 2020, 07:25 AM   #2454
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Having a grain of historical truth to an imagined fantasy does not change the fact that today, when a child is told of the (false) existence of Santa Claus, it is fantasy to entertain and amuse.
It's a deliberate mistruth told to a child that the child believes. In other words, it's a lie. A harmless lie that children eventually realise is a fantasy when they grow older. But it's a still a lie, you have deliberately convinced someone else of something you know to be untrue. That's a lie no matter how your try to squirm your way out of it

But you've recently said that lying is only justified when it's used to prevent something like a serious crime or injury to someone.

So now you've gone and tied yourself in a knot you're desperately trying to claw your way out of. Sometimes it's okay to tell an untruth to someone, for example, telling a kid that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy exists, i.e. lying to them, for the purpose of bringing a bit of magic or fantasy into their lives, not to prevent them from injury or being the victim of a serious crime.

You don't really put a lot thought into your oddball claims about how amazing a person you are, how smart you are, how great your memory is, how honest you are, etc. No-one is buying it.

Now watch as you squirm your way into trying to explain that telling a kid that Santa Claus brought their presents on Christmas morning or that the Tooth Fairy left some money for their missing truth is not deliberately misleading a child into believing something untrue, i.e. a lie.

It turns out PartSkeptic, that lying is not inherently wrong. Sometimes it's okay to lie or bend the truth or whatever. You've painted yourself into a corner with this "lying is only justified when it prevents something serious from happening" sillly notion and now you're trying to squirm your way out of it by saying that telling a child that Santa Claus left their presents under the tree isn't really a lie even though it clearly is, it's just an example of when lying isn't immoral.

Keep digging yourself down into that hole you made for yourself. Bonus points it your attempts to squirm your way out of this comes with a pointless irrelevant anecdote.

Last edited by JesseCuster; 10th December 2020 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 10th December 2020, 07:49 AM   #2455
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
So here I have "inside information" about God and the afterlife.
I see no evidence that you do. In fact, what I see in your lengthy posting history at this forum is ample evidence that you desperately want others to believe this about you. And you employ a fairly standard toolbox of behaviors apparently intended either to create a superficial semblance of that evidence, or alternatively to have an excuse to shame others for their disbelief.

Contrary to you claim, you are very much a "usual suspect." These behaviors are far from unique to you. Many others before you have pretended to be some sort of prophet, clairvoyant, or seer. The only difference in this case is that you're so very inept at it.

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I do not have the verifiable specifics that one wants to prove one can tell the future.
Then there's no reason for anyone to accept your claim that you can do that. The end.
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Old 10th December 2020, 08:01 AM   #2456
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Having a grain of historical truth to an imagined fantasy does not change the fact that today, when a child is told of the (false) existence of Santa Claus, it is fantasy to entertain and amuse.
I see only one reason to distinguish between telling a child that if he behaves well, a magic elf will come down the chimney and give him presents, and telling an adult that if he behaves well, a magic invisible being in the sky will grant him a happy life when he dies. Both are statements made with no evidence, in disregard of discernible truth, apparently intended to give comfort and cheer.

The one reason to distinguish them is that the Santa Claus myth at least derives in part from a person we know existed and who is documented to have exhibited at least some of the behavior attributed to Santa Claus. The same cannot be said for any of the thousands of gods people have believed in. But the myth of Santa Claus, as it is told today, offers no more or less cause to believe in it than the myth of gods and afterlives.

Quote:
The afterlife is one of the most enduring beliefs of humankind.
The endurance of a belief is not evidence that it is true. It could be, however, evidence of a longstanding desire to hold such beliefs regardless of evidence.

Quote:
This is not a grain of truth but a huge enormous history of supernatural happenings.
No. It is a history of occurrences which, at the time, defied explanations that fell within the knowledge and experience of the observers. And because our knowledge and experience is forever finite, we may yet observe things that are difficult to explain. That people have a long history of conjuring up magical beings, places, and powers as rumored causes they couldn't otherwise determine does not suddenly give that speculation actual explanatory power.

Last edited by JayUtah; 10th December 2020 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 10th December 2020, 08:05 AM   #2457
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
I think every time someone says "science admits it has no answer," they're showing a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is. They appear to think it's some equivalent of whatever book they happen to hold holy...
I agree. I've observed that religious people tend to regard science as just a competing religion.

Quote:
Science isn't a closed book of answers that's in competition with any particular religion's tome- it's an open-ended process for finding answers...
And most importantly, it explicitly declines to declare that it has an answer if the methods of acquiring evidence and deducing causes and effects do not support any answer. Religion purports in some cases to have all the answers, even though much of it is merely speculation or imagination that has acquired the force of fact via lengthy repetition. In other cases it simply declares the answers unknowable by any means. None of that appeals to me as a rational process.
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Old 10th December 2020, 12:01 PM   #2458
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Science is a process.
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Old 10th December 2020, 04:28 PM   #2459
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are invented entities to entertain children.
Just like the thousands of invented deities.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Theirs is a world of wonder and delight, and adult enjoy their laughter and imagination.
Sure, I did that with my kids and great fun it was. Now they are grown up. You should try that.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
It does not qualify as a lie. No more than the movies we all watch qualify as lies.
Movies are fiction. We all know they are fiction.

Are you stating that you are unable to distinguish fact from fiction? Because that is how it seems.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
God is not an invented entity.
god is absolutely invented. That's why there are thousands of them.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Adults take religion seriously.
Yep. The morons. Because they have been brainwashed with religion from childhood.Amusingly, the crap you cvome up with would have you condemned as a heretic in most current popular religions.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
It is an explanation of the Universe that fits many supernatural events.
Wrong. Goddit is an explanation for nothing.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Science admits it has no answer.
Sure. That is because science has no problem stating that it does not know. Religion claims that it does know ex nihilo. That is not getting airborne in the real world

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Some people start with the assumption that God does not exist
Good for them. That is the correct starting position. Why believe in some deity absent any evidence? That would be daft.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
and then try to make some sort of explanation fit.
Wrong.


Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
One person said he was forced into lying by a nosy person asking about a purchase. There are two easy ways to answer without lying. One is to be vague "Oh, this and that". The other is to reply with a question "Why do you ask?"
Pointless anecdote. Why do I care about this person and how do I know you are accurately reporting their words? I do not.


Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I do agree that complete honesty can be a problem. Take the movie "The invention of lying." White lies are intended to avoid conflict and distress. Once more, it is possible to give a positive answer without lying. It takes intelligence to do. One has to see what the problem is and quickly respond to the other person in a way that is helpful.
And now you are changing your tune so that lying is okey-dokey.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I was asked under oath to reply "yes or no". I told the judge the answer was not one of those, and what should I do. I was allowed to answer my way - the truth.
And now you are lying. Interesting, given the above discussion.

Given the above discussion, I think we may assueme that your posts may or may not be honest. After all, you have told us you have no problem wheeling out the massive porkies.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I have explained why I felt pressured into discussing my abilities. You distort it into something that it is not. That does not make your opinion correct.
Sure. Because you tell us you are content to lie.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I cannot do a experiment that has variables I cannot control. One is the amount of radiation and the other is an underlying medical condition such as sinusitis that the radiation amplifies to give pain. Those factors were discovered while setting up the parameters. Why bang on about it?
Because it is material to your claims, that's why.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I give people here examples of supernatural events.
So far, you have provided none.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Then attempt to answer the objections.
You have not once done that.
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I learn a lot about some people react to such anecdotes.
You mean like how we react to grampa simpson's anecdotes? Or something else?

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
You don't like it.
sure. I am not fond of obvious BS. Who would be?

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
You have your denials of the supernatural all mapped out and I don't fit the profile of the usual suspects. Tough.
What was that you claimed about lying? And it aint tough, you exactly fit the profile. Almost a caricature.


Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
BTW. Once more on holiday. Forecast was for a week of rainy weather. Only slight rain the first day. Otherwise ideal weather for the game park. Cloudy and cool breezes. Fantastic sightings.
Off topic, do not care.
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Old 10th December 2020, 04:52 PM   #2460
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Fun fact: in my much-younger days I was a volunteer restoration worker on the Basilica of St. Nicholas in Bari, Italy,
....that's weird. I was an undergraduate on my way to a neanderthal dig in Iran, when the Iranian revolution happened. Sydney Uni instead sent me to study at the British Library, where I ran other field teams and ended up in accounting, then tax law.

People with unusual career paths always bring something new to the table.
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Old 10th December 2020, 07:59 PM   #2461
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are invented entities to entertain children.........God is not an invented entity.
Partskeptic is caught lying again and is informed that Saint Nicholas (Santa) was a real person. Partskeptic is then unable to say which "God" is real. Zeus? Shiva? Yahweh? Odin?


Originally Posted by PartSkeptic a day later
Having a grain of historical truth to an imagined fantasy does not change the fact
Partskeptic tries to hide his lie that Santa was "invented" by admitting St Nicholas was a real historical person.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic
The afterlife is one of the most enduring beliefs of humankind.
Homo neanderthalensis already believed in the afterlife 65,000 years ago (Shanidar burial flowers) Did your god create neanderthals in his own image?
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Old 10th December 2020, 09:34 PM   #2462
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I cannot do a experiment that has variables I cannot control. One is the amount of radiation and the other is an underlying medical condition such as sinusitis that the radiation amplifies to give pain. Those factors were discovered while setting up the parameters. Why bang on about it?
Do you acknowledge that your inability to test your hypothesis means there is no reason for anyone, including you, to believe it? Do so, and no one will need to keep banging on about it. As long as you keep baselessly insisting that your hypothesis is correct, despite your failure to demonstrate it, you can expect to keep being reminded of that failure.

Similar claims have already been comprehensively tested, you know the results. It was perfectly possible for you to do your own test, as was explained to you in detail. We all know the real reason you chickened out.
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Old 11th December 2020, 01:46 AM   #2463
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Partskeptic is caught lying again and is informed that Saint Nicholas (Santa) was a real person. Partskeptic is then unable to say which "God" is real. Zeus? Shiva? Yahweh? Odin?
I think you are confusing St Nicholas (4thC Turkish bishop and patron saint of, amongst others, broadcasters and prostitutes) and Santa (mythical jolly red-faced bloke who gives out presents and drinks a lot of Coke). The first is real, the second less so, though derived from the first.

But otherwise, yeah.
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Old 11th December 2020, 04:03 AM   #2464
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PartSkeptic, telling your child that a magical man called Santa Claus came down the chimney and left their presents under the tree, when it was in fact you that left the presents under the tree. To me that's a lie. It's a harmless lie, but a lie nonetheless, you have willingly and knowing told told them something you know to be false.

Let me ask a question, and I just want a yes or no answer....

Is it a lie to tell child that Santa Claus came down the chimney and left presents under the tree for them on Christmas day? Yes or no?
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Old 11th December 2020, 02:59 PM   #2465
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
PartSkeptic, telling your child that a magical man called Santa Claus came down the chimney and left their presents under the tree, when it was in fact you that left the presents under the tree. To me that's a lie. It's a harmless lie, but a lie nonetheless, you have willingly and knowing told told them something you know to be false.

Let me ask a question, and I just want a yes or no answer....

Is it a lie to tell child that Santa Claus came down the chimney and left presents under the tree for them on Christmas day? Yes or no?
While I would grant that this is, for the most part, a harmless lie, I'm not entirely sure how harmless it is to a person's ability to think and act rationally, especially if one subscribes to some of the subsets of Santa-lore, such as the idea that, as the song says, he can see when you've been naughty, thus possessing divine power.

Kids outgrow Santa, for the most part, but do they entirely outgrow the idea that such nonsense can have a useful meaning? Or that truth is malleable and elective? Most of the things kids outgrow are ailments or weaknesses whose loss is welcomed. Must we give them another?
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Old 11th December 2020, 10:27 PM   #2466
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
While I would grant that this is, for the most part, a harmless lie, I'm not entirely sure how harmless it is to a person's ability to think and act rationally, especially if one subscribes to some of the subsets of Santa-lore, such as the idea that, as the song says, he can see when you've been naughty, thus possessing divine power.

Kids outgrow Santa, for the most part, but do they entirely outgrow the idea that such nonsense can have a useful meaning? Or that truth is malleable and elective? Most of the things kids outgrow are ailments or weaknesses whose loss is welcomed. Must we give them another?
I think sometimes it may actually have the opposite effect, in that discovering it was just a story may prompt children to ask themselves what else they've been told might also be just a story. I know I stopped believing in god shortly after I stopped believing in Father Christmas, and for much the same reason.
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Old 11th December 2020, 11:27 PM   #2467
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I know I stopped believing in god shortly after I stopped believing in Father Christmas, and for much the same reason.
That resonates clearly to my point. We compare the lie of Santa Claus, Father Christmas, to the lie of a supernatural supreme being. In terms of the underlying facts -- if any -- we ought to be more patient with Santa Claus. Yes, it's an outright lie to tell children that a magical being visits every household in a single day, entering via an improbable (and sometimes nonexistent) orifice, and delivers presents to well-behaved children. But we landed on that story after departing from the facts of a person who actually lived, was actually famous for giving gifts to children, and who -- in the idiom of the time -- was transformed by sanctification into a magical being upon his death. Obviously the imaginative part of the story started early. But there's an anchor of historical fact.

In contrast, I can't think of any god-origin story that's based on any sort of verifiable fact. Yes, Mt Olympus exists as a matter of fact, but there's no corps of fact that we anchor the Zeus story to. He's completely made up. Ditto Yahweh. Yes, Jesus may have existed literally in history as a mortal, but despite the trinitarian gymnastics, he's still a subordinate deity.

So I think it's disingenuous to downplay the Santa Claus story as nothing more than amusing tales told to children, and elevate random god stories as enduring human experience that's somehow immune from challenge. In terms of phenomenology, I see no difference between the Nicholas-Krampus dichotomy and the God-Satan dichotomy. Both are mythologies intended specifically to regulate others' behavior. You tell one group that if they are good, a magical being (Santa) will reward them with presents, and if they are naughty, a demon (Krampus) will punish them. And you tell the same story to a different group -- this time, supposedly discerning adults -- but you just change the names. But this version of the story is supposed to elicit bowing and scraping from everyone, including those who see no reason to believe it.

If you go by which story has the better factual basis, you should stick with Santa-Krampus. But no, we get no such rational approach. But at the higher level, once you start questioning Santa-Krampus, it should strike you as just as skeptical to start questioning God-Satan. If you concede that Santa has so far departed from St. Nicholas of Myra as to be entirely disconnected, you then have to realize there's hardly any difference. But then you have to say that the little white lie of Father Christmas (wink-wink, nudge-nudge, say-no-more) shouldn't be distinguished from the giant, society-hobbling lie of supernatural supreme beings.
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Old 11th December 2020, 11:32 PM   #2468
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Children are pretty good at spotting fantasy.
I was having a joke with my 8ish niece about something I was being silly about from a Harry Potter movie and was promptly told (head tilted, eyes pointing skywards, toe tapping),
"Its only a movie, its not real you know".

Admittedly the 3 year old threw a wobbly the other night and cried himself to sleep when he was told Santa wasn't coming that night.
He has no concept of fantasy, nor calendars, it seems.
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Old 12th December 2020, 04:45 AM   #2469
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Too busy to read the replies at the moment.
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Too busy to read replies so far. Having to fix the results of a bad lightning strike on a factory. Computer, mod
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Not much to respond to.
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Sigh!!! More of the same from you.
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I give people here examples of supernatural events. Then attempt to answer the objections.
No, you quite clearly do not. Liar.
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Old 12th December 2020, 08:03 AM   #2470
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
God is not an invented entity. Adults take religion seriously. It is an explanation of the Universe that fits many supernatural events.

It can be made to fit anything, and therefore explains nothing.

Quote:
Science admits it has no answer.

And religion pretends it does. “God did it” is not an explanation.
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Old 12th December 2020, 08:07 AM   #2471
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
No, it was God giving me new lessons. And possibly slowing me down on some other projects that may need a slower pace.

I never see problems as being "smited". Life is suffering (like Buddha says), and life is learning. I just work harder. The benefit to me was that the obligations and work made me stronger and more healthy. I had been suffering more than usual in the last few months. Yesterday I got the CNC wire bending machine working in emergency mode until we get a replacement part, and I got a legal notice done to oppose legal costs against me. I said "Thank you God".

Does that mean you had lost the case?
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Old 15th December 2020, 09:22 AM   #2472
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So many commitments and so much to get done.

Here is one for you guys to get worked up about.

One Nov 17, I made public a comment about Biden not living to get inaugurated. It was because of a "sign" or "omen".

I was reminded of this when I read a news piece about his cough. Others began to wonder how long he might last.

I asked the Tarot cards but they refused to give an answer, so I am on my own.

The man has issues. If one looks and listens closely, he slurs a bit now and then, loses track of what he wants to say next, he has trouble walking, and now he has a foot problem.

So here goes. I do not think Biden will be sworn in as President because he will be too ill or have passed on.

If I am right, it will make interesting times more interesting - as Covid surges.
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Old 15th December 2020, 09:24 AM   #2473
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Does that mean you had lost the case?
In this case, I was robbed!

By a captured judiciary, unethical lawyers.
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Old 15th December 2020, 09:26 AM   #2474
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
It can be made to fit anything, and therefore explains nothing.




And religion pretends it does. “God did it” is not an explanation.

Let me hear your explanation for why "dumb" matter/energy has the attributes for intelligence life (humankind) to emerge? Chance? Hardly.
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Old 15th December 2020, 09:28 AM   #2475
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, you quite clearly do not. Liar.

You have just provided the proof of my claim that I am called a liar by some posters. Shame. Do you judge me by your own behavior - namely lying a lot?
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Old 15th December 2020, 09:35 AM   #2476
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Children are pretty good at spotting fantasy.
I was having a joke with my 8ish niece about something I was being silly about from a Harry Potter movie and was promptly told (head tilted, eyes pointing skywards, toe tapping),
"Its only a movie, its not real you know".

Admittedly the 3 year old threw a wobbly the other night and cried himself to sleep when he was told Santa wasn't coming that night.
He has no concept of fantasy, nor calendars, it seems.

Agreed. However, it can be a shame for kids that grow up too early and lose their enjoyment of fantasy.

Now science fiction movies are entertaining and I can get lost in the plot of a good movie. They can also be a look into the future. Unfortunately many today are dystopian. But that may be accurate.

I have to confess that for many years I thought wrestling was real and not the contrived acting/entertainment that it was. It was not as much fun after I was "enlightened".
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Old 15th December 2020, 09:39 AM   #2477
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Children are pretty good at spotting fantasy.
I was having a joke with my 8ish niece about something I was being silly about from a Harry Potter movie and was promptly told (head tilted, eyes pointing skywards, toe tapping),
"Its only a movie, its not real you know".


I wish some adults could manage that. When I was a teenager, my mother was worried that D&D was "teaching me about monsters and spells", and years later she had a similar reaction when one of my nieces was reading Harry Potter.
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Old 15th December 2020, 09:49 AM   #2478
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
While I would grant that this is, for the most part, a harmless lie, I'm not entirely sure how harmless it is to a person's ability to think and act rationally, especially if one subscribes to some of the subsets of Santa-lore, such as the idea that, as the song says, he can see when you've been naughty, thus possessing divine power.

Kids outgrow Santa, for the most part, but do they entirely outgrow the idea that such nonsense can have a useful meaning? Or that truth is malleable and elective? Most of the things kids outgrow are ailments or weaknesses whose loss is welcomed. Must we give them another?

Regrettably too many people think that, because they believe there is no God or afterlife, then they have no restrictions on what they can get away with. How many billionaires who made their money using unethical means are worried about karmic payback?

Would it help if they had some fear of divine retribution? I sure think so. And I think when the die-off and collapse gets really bad, then money and power will not give them the comfort they want.

I think that the spiritual change coming will be helpful in achieving global common sense to take care of the planet.

Some are saying there is no going back to the way things were. I agree. Only it is clear to me that people have no ability to imagine how bad it could be. The plagues of the past are just pictures in a book.

I am at the point when one has to think about adjusting to the "new normal". For example, if Covid is unstoppable, maybe nations have to accept that and not spend billions on medical treatment while people starve from having no income. Why not set up hospices where people can be cared for, and their suffering relieved while their immune system battles the virus? Let nature take its course.
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Old 15th December 2020, 10:47 AM   #2479
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I do not think Biden will be sworn in as President because he will be too ill or have passed on.
Wow, an actual, specific, verifiable prediction. With a timeframe short enough for a hit to be reasonably impressive, despite the age of the man in question.

Do you want me to add it to my list? Or start a new one?
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Old 15th December 2020, 12:19 PM   #2480
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Let me hear your explanation for why "dumb" matter/energy has the attributes for intelligence life (humankind) to emerge? Chance? Hardly.
Yet believers always refuse to explain how something FAR more complex, a god, can appear without any cause.
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