Continuation The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread Part 2

[mike81]

Originally Posted by Bob001

I watch the news networks, too. They are saying that restrictions need to continue until the vaccines have been widely administered. A vaccine in a freezer doesn't help anybody. They are not saying "in case the vaccine doesn't work." A vaccine can't be approved unless it has demonstrated its effectiveness.

They have said what I posted. Sorry you didn't hear it.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

You were saying the restrictions had to continue after the vaccines have been administered.

No, I wasn't.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by mike81

Or some Covid-19 deaths were actually flu deaths. Again, they are counting people never tested. It says so right on the CDC site. They just diagnose them based on symptoms.

Single digits is, I have now found out, an exaggeration. According to ACT Health, there were 194 notifications of influenza between 1 January and 11 October 2020. During the same period in 2019 there were 3,936.

The ACT has had a grand total of 3 COVID-19 deaths for the duration of the pandemic. I don't believe that what you suggest can be true in our case.

[Rolfe]

I've been shut down for eight months. I'm not scared. The reason I'm not scared is that I've been shut down. Lucky me, that I'm able to do it. I've made a fair dent in the decluttering of the house and I meet friends on Zoom. Currently trying to learn enough of Audacity so that three of us can surprise our choirmaster with a stitched-together "Lift thine eyes".

We need to keep up precautions for a bit even after vaccination, because no vaccine protects everyone and this is very new. They need to keep up the contact tracing and isolation, but when this is done against the background of widespread vaccination then it should be possible to eliminate the disease fairly quickly. THEN we can get back to normal within the country (countries) that have successfully eliminated, with continuation of border restrictions including mandatory travel vaccination. That will kill it.

Just running round vaccinating people piecemeal and saying OK you're fine to behave as normal now will keep the virus going, if not perpetually certainly for much longer than need be.

[marting]

Originally Posted by mike81

Or some Covid-19 deaths were actually flu deaths. Again, they are counting people never tested. It says so right on the CDC site. They just diagnose them based on symptoms.

Sure "some" flu deaths might be tagged as Covid-19 deaths. I'd be surprised if none were. But it's negligible relative to covid. Influenza rates are exceptionally low and have been since shortly after NPIs were first imposed in the USA (and most everywhere to one degree or another). The reason flu has been suppressed is that it's R nought is much lower than Covid-19. NPIs reduced R for flu well below one which is why it declined precipitously after covid NPIs. The CDC does surveillance on flu to identify strains extant and it has remained far below the normal, off season levels. It barely showed up in the Southern hemisphere during what is normally their flu season and quite a swath of countries report no flu at all.

[Skeptical Greg]

edit

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by mike81

Read the CDC website. Learn the difference between dying of it and with it. See where they admit that they are counting people who are never tested. They are just probably infected based on symptoms. Symptoms which could be from other viruses.

You can't possibly think that is evidence of support for your claims.

How about you read a recent infectious disease medical textbook. That would involve less reading.

Originally Posted by mike81

Nurses and other health care workers have said they are being encouraged to put Covid-19 down as a cause of death. The government gives them more money to help make up for lost revenue. This is an incentive to put Covid-19 as the cause of death. Testing sites are billing the government and health insurance companies so they get paid twice. I know this for sure because it happened to my girlfriend many times and other people she works with. They are required to get tested on a regular basis.

A quick search found this clip of a press conference where they admit they are counting the deaths differently and counting people who die with it not of it. There are many other interviews and press conferences where they have admitted stuff like this.

https://youtu.be/GGHp1GdOD4k

I know nothing about the channel that it is posted on, but I was watching the press conference live the day she said this. It is not the only time she and others have admitted this. Now you can claim it means something else so you can continue your fear-mongering.

I know someone who is very familiar with how some of these tests work. He explained to me just how easy it can be to get a positive result.

Now they're even saying even with a 90% effective vaccine we should all still be scared and continue to be restricted. Some of you just can't let it end can you?

You should stop reading alt-right web sites. Dr Birx is explaining the issue that was brought up. By no means is she claiming the death count for COVID is seriously over counted.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Planigale

This is a US phenomenon. So it would not explain why European countries see high rates of covid deaths. Certainly in the UK there is no pressure to put anything on death certificate. Since we can put multiple contributory causes we could say 1a Covid Pneumonia 1b Stage 4 Lung cancer 1c Smoking. With covid as the most proximate cause of death but the underlying cause being smoking with cancer stuck in the middle.

It's not even true in the US. Trump invented that out of whole cloth.

Doctors are not paid by what goes on a death certificate.

I suspect he completely misunderstood what DRGs are and how they work.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by mike81

I have provided evidence that the death rate is going down. If you want to ignore it that is your problem.

Fewer people with severe COVID die. The case counts of severe COVID are up.

The death rate is down. The number of people dying is way up.

[mike81]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It's not even true in the US. Trump invented that out of whole cloth.

Doctors are not paid by what goes on a death certificate.

I suspect he completely misunderstood what DRGs are and how they work.

Wrong. Hospitals are getting money from the government for Covid-19 cases to make up for lost revenue. The CDC director admitted to this during a hearing recently. Are you really that out of touch with what has been admitted?

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/ho...9-death-count/

"The CARES Act created the 20% add-on to be paid for Medicare patients with COVID-19. The act further created a $100 billion fund that is being used to financially assist hospitals — a “portion” of which will be “used to reimburse healthcare providers, at Medicare rates, for COVID-related treatment of the uninsured,” according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services."

It is also pretty easy to get a test to show positive. All you really have to do is run more than a certain number of cycles. Turns out they are running more cycles to get more positive results. Let me guess, you don't believe that either. You think it is some conspiracy theory? Get your info from somewhere other than CNN and friends. These things have been admitted to.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by marting

Sure "some" flu deaths might be tagged as Covid-19 deaths. I'd be surprised if none were. But it's negligible relative to covid. Influenza rates are exceptionally low and have been since shortly after NPIs were first imposed in the USA (and most everywhere to one degree or another). The reason flu has been suppressed is that it's R nought is much lower than Covid-19. NPIs reduced R for flu well below one which is why it declined precipitously after covid NPIs. The CDC does surveillance on flu to identify strains extant and it has remained far below the normal, off season levels. It barely showed up in the Southern hemisphere during what is normally their flu season and quite a swath of countries report no flu at all.

How does that surveillance worK?

Do we have numbers on how many flu tests are being performed?

[mike81]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You can't possibly think that is evidence of support for your claims.

How about you read a recent infectious disease medical textbook. That would involve less reading.

You should stop reading alt-right web sites. Dr Birx is explaining the issue that was brought up. By no means is she claiming the death count for COVID is seriously over counted.

I don't read any alt-right websites. I'm not a Trump supporter. Something else you were wrong about. Maybe don't make assumptions about someone you know nothing about? I've read the CDC site and watched the press conferences and other things. There are many times where they've admitted what I have said. If it makes you feel better to believe that you are right and somehow I am wrong even though I've given sources (like the CDC) for my information, then you go right ahead.

[marting]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

How does that surveillance worK?

Do we have numbers on how many flu tests are being performed?

CDC does weekly influenza reports. These are from surveillance at hospitals around the country and is separate from diagnostic tests the hospitals may, or may not, do. Each year they use the data to estimate deaths where the proximate cause was flu (people actually die from a wide range of mostly secondary things the flu brings on).

You can see the dramatic decrease after NPIs in March on flu this year by comparing the 2019-2020 season with the 2018-2019 season.


https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weekl...020/Week43.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weekl...021/week43.htm

Scroll down the the chart listing weekly influenza tests and you can see the dropoff. This year's flu season had been shaping up to be a fair amount worse than last year's. Then Covid-19 hit and NPIs were widely adopted. The number of flu positives declined rapidly as well as the percent positives leveling in the off season at about .2 to .3% this year compared to 2 to 3% the prior year.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by mike81

Wrong. Hospitals are getting money from the government for Covid-19 cases to make up for lost revenue. The CDC director admitted to this during a hearing recently. Are you really that out of touch with what has been admitted?

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/ho...9-death-count/

"The CARES Act created the 20% add-on to be paid for Medicare patients with COVID-19. The act further created a $100 billion fund that is being used to financially assist hospitals — a “portion” of which will be “used to reimburse healthcare providers, at Medicare rates, for COVID-related treatment of the uninsured,” according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services."

It is also pretty easy to get a test to show positive. All you really have to do is run more than a certain number of cycles. Turns out they are running more cycles to get more positive results. Let me guess, you don't believe that either. You think it is some conspiracy theory? Get your info from somewhere other than CNN and friends. These things have been admitted to.

Once again you don't know what you are talking about. This is the field I work in, I don't get my info from the TV news.

From your own link:

Quote:

— when in fact the payments referenced are for treating patients.

And

Quote:

... multiple experts told us that such theories of hospitals deliberately miscoding patients as COVID-19 are not supported by any evidence.

And:

Quote:

In an interview with FactCheck.org, however, Jensen said he did not think that hospitals were intentionally misclassifying cases for financial reasons.

But that’s how his comments have been widely interpreted and paraded on social media.

So he says something on Laura Ingraham, it gets misinterpreted and Trump runs with it.

And, it's not based on what goes on the death certificate.


In addition to that, Medicare fraud is a very serious crime. Yes, some docs have been caught doing it. But the vast majority of doctors don't.


And there are lots of people involved in that medicare billing. It would be very hard to make the diagnosis up if it weren't the actual diagnosis.

And on top of all that, if patients are presumed to have died of COVID after the fact, you don't go back and re-bill Medicare.


This is so typical of Trump's ignorance. He probably heard a little tidbit about the Medicare premium and fashioned it into the fantasy that the COVID death numbers were being padded. That's the fantasy Trump wants to be true. And it's no surprise Trump watches Ingraham.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by marting

CDC does weekly influenza reports. These are from surveillance at hospitals around the country and is separate from diagnostic tests the hospitals may, or may not, do. Each year they use the data to estimate deaths where the proximate cause was flu (people actually die from a wide range of mostly secondary things the flu brings on).

You can see the dramatic decrease after NPIs in March on flu this year by comparing the 2019-2020 season with the 2018-2019 season.


https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weekl...020/Week43.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weekl...021/week43.htm

Scroll down the the chart listing weekly influenza tests and you can see the dropoff. This year's flu season had been shaping up to be a fair amount worse than last year's. Then Covid-19 hit and NPIs were widely adopted. The number of flu positives declined rapidly as well as the percent positives leveling in the off season at about .2 to .3% this year compared to 2 to 3% the prior year.

Adding a bit more to this, doctors screen patients for flu which is reported by sentinel doctors. In addition when viral cultures are ordered, the lab reports on the % positive for flu and the strain detected (mentioned above).

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by mike81

Covid-19 is real and it is killing people.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by mike81

It's no where near as bad as the media and politicians have made it out to be.

Rather, by the look of it, it's notably worse.

Originally Posted by mike81

At first it was flatten the curve. We did that.

Which helped immensely when it came to getting a handle on it, much as efforts to do so were being sabotaged all throughout, which made it dramatically more painful, annoying, and unpleasant all around.

Originally Posted by mike81

Then it was wear a mask and restrict everything until we get a vaccine. Now that a vaccine is very close to being distributed, they are now saying wait minute let's continue to stay shut down and scared even after getting vaccinated.

It's rather interesting. Just about all of the people who keep working to downplay Covid-19 seem to invoke fear, fear, fear as if that were the only possible reason for us to take Covid-19 seriously. I suppose that speaks about ones' character, though.

Originally Posted by mike81

Why can't some of you let it end? I guess now that some people have gotten a hold of more power they don't want to let go of it.

This part may be better directed at the Conspiracy Theory thread for Covid-19.

Either way, it would be awesome if, say, I had the power to just snap my fingers and make Covid-19 vanish from existence, so we actually could leave it behind us.

*snaps his fingers* Gone yet?

[lionking]

Originally Posted by novaphile

I'm very impressed with how quick the South Australian government has responded to the latest outbreak.

There's been a lot of publicity about the public places where potential exposure occurred.

We've been sent home again, with instructions to work from home at least for the next two weeks.

The Premier immediately made public statements asking "anyone who can work from home, to please do so..."

Note, I'm hearing that it is suspected fomite transfer to a person who worked at the 'medi-hotel" who has had no contact with the family that have the virus (or anyone else staying at the hotel).

The patient zero is being described as a "back of house" worker at the hotel, who has no interaction with hotel guests.

Well that’s to be expected from your Premier. “Of course the virus did not originate in SA, it was imported (no doubt from Victoria)”.

The virus wasn’t eliminated from SA nor NZ.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Bob001

No, I wasn't.

Yes, sorry, for some reason I confused two names ending in the same digit.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by lionking

The virus wasn’t eliminated from SA nor NZ.

Yeah it was in NZ - twice.

We're now onto the third time eliminating an outbreak.

If you think it won't arise again in Victoria you're just deluded. If people are coming in to quarantine and ports, there will be breaches.

[The Atheist]

Covid - not very deadly: https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/statu...167040/photo/1

[lionking]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Yeah it was in NZ - twice.

We're now onto the third time eliminating an outbreak.

If you think it won't arise again in Victoria you're just deluded. If people are coming in to quarantine and ports, there will be breaches.

Here’s the thing. I don’t and never did think Victoria eradicated the virus. I’ve just been bemused that other states did.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Why?

https://www.news.com.au/world/corona...2fdde3cc065ae2

South Australia’s virus outbreak has forced thousands of people into quarantine as the state deals with a cluster that has more than doubled.
As a precaution, there are now around 4000 people considered close contacts who have been quarantined, chief health officer Professor Nicola Spurrier revealed this afternoon.

This could be a super spreader event similar to Melbourne’s. Started in hotel quarantine, spread through a large mobile family in a disadvantaged part of the city where there were largely complacent people ignoring social distancing.

Hopefully this will not spread, but it is an object lesson.

[No Other]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

******** We do it all the time.

Please tell more... such as an example. Be sure to include, in your examples, those mandated on the general population.

[No Other]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Gee, your organs show damage and we don't know what the long-term effects will be but don't worry.

Boy, you certainly know how to parse and cull out words without surrounding it with context.

[No Other]

Originally Posted by Planigale

And for a long time;

From 1908
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...bstract/428696
"Those who are not protected by vaccination deserve no sympathy ... they should be isolated ... after an exposure to smallpox until it can be determined whether or not they are to develop the disease".

This example is a joke. You are going back to the last century (112 years ago) to point out that quarantining took place. Why don't you go back to the 15th century and the Black Plague? This is a pathetic approach for justification quarantining as a general practice. Let's go back to the life and times of 1908 to emphasize the need to quarantine as if we have not changed our demographics, our "way of life", how we conduct our interactions, advances in medicine, and so on. Indoor plumbing was a luxury, electricity was sporadic and yet you point to this time as an example...

Quote:

That something is unknown to 'No Other' does not mean it is unknown and it certainly does not mean it has never happened previously. Quarantining, cohorting, is common practice in managing infections.

This is a flat out false claim, it may occur within a household but not beyond that. Point to an example within the past 50 years where the healthy population was required to quarantine.

[No Other]

Originally Posted by marting

I said low levels and non-existent in many areas. This is fact.

This is your quote..."Not so. The "flu season" is pretty much non-existent everywhere. " You are rewriting history.

Quote:

You were the one conflating flu and covid deaths and you just assume it's true and ask for references? No idea where you got the notion that there were bunches of flu deaths being marked as covid deaths. Wherever you heard that consider that any other "facts" they were putting out may well be bs too.

See above about rewriting history... show me where I conflated Covid and the Flu. As for deaths marked as Covid, Dr. Deborah Brix states it quite eloquently in this YouTube clip (I cannot convert the link to the preferred format but you can copy and enjoy the tutelage) www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGHp1GdOD4k

[No Other]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Gee, your organs show damage and we don't know what the long-term effects will be but don't worry.

Refined sugar, alcohol, GMOs, sodas, butter and many many other foods damage various organs. I don't see you marching these out as societal ills.

[No Other]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

That is truly pathetic.

When the death total is 1000 a day, whether someone died on that exact day or not is irrelevant. The fact is thousands of people are dying from Covid every day.

Like all the other deniers who have participated in the thread, let time tell the story of what happened - you're not going to convince anyone here that you're right and the entire medical establishment of the world is wrong.

It's so obvious now that even denier Governors in US states have recognised action needs to be taken, so give yourself a break from the abject nonsense you're peddling.

I love how you categorically call people who disagree with you as "deniers". I am a "denier" if it means calling out the facts. Address the facts and then an adult conversation can take place.

FACTS:

1. Cases are recorded... not people. A single person can represent multiple cases.
2. People who die with Covid-19 are cataloged as dying from Covid-19.
3. The RT-PCR is a manufacturing process and not a diagnostic tool.
4. The RT-PCR detects enzymes that are associated with the Covid-19 virus but it does not detect the RNA.
5. There is no standardization in the Ct when utilizing the RT-PCR process.
6. The RT-PCR does not detect if the virus is infectious or not.
7. The RT-PCR cannot determine when the Covid-19 entered your system.

Provide a counter argument to the above facts, keep out the hyperbole and anecdotal stories.

[No Other]

Originally Posted by Nessie

I was also like to see restrictions imposed on people who will not take the vaccine. I work in care and we have this year been told we must get the flu vaccine. I could see various jobs saying no to those who refuse vaccinations.

A government imposing restrictions on people who do not take a "for profit" vaccine is the ultimate Authoritarian Control. You made a choice to work in the industry that you do, do not place on others the conditions you choose to follow.

Before you go down the path about school children and their mandatory vaccines, there is opt-out provided for those who do not want it. One opt-out is home schooling.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by mike81

Or some Covid-19 deaths were actually flu deaths. Again, they are counting people never tested. It says so right on the CDC site. They just diagnose them based on symptoms.

Even after accounting for the reduction in deaths from things like the Flu and car accidents there have been more than 300K extra deaths in the US. The weight of the evidence strongly favors Covid 19 deaths being under attributed, not over-attributed like the conspiracy theorist are claiming.

[No Other]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Doctors are not paid by what goes on a death certificate.

Hospitals are. This is not debatable it is on the books and even Medicare is paying out enormous sums of $ for a "Covid-19 death".

I am not suggesting that Hospitals are inflating their Covid-19 death rate, I am only addressing the compensation aspect.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by No Other

Refined sugar, alcohol, GMOs, sodas, butter and many many other foods damage various organs. I don't see you marching these out as societal ills.

Oh for crap's sake. Covid is a specific communicable illness with specific causes that people can contract through no fault of their own as a result of the behavior of other people around them. If I can keep others healthy and they can keep me healthy by wearing a damn cloth mask, what does that have to do with anything else? What's the problem? There is no other place in the world where a basic public health measure is a subject of political controversy, and that's why 1,000 Americans are dying every day.



.

[mike81]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Oh for crap's sake. Covid is a specific communicable illness with specific causes that people can contract through no fault of their own as a result of the behavior of other people around them. If I can keep others healthy and they can keep me healthy by wearing a damn cloth mask, what does that have to do with anything else? What's the problem? There is no other place in the world where a basic public health measure is a subject of political controversy, and that's why 1,000 Americans are dying every day.



.

Wearing a mask is not the only thing we are being told to do. People have lost their jobs. They are being told to not visit family, not go to funerals, etc. Businesses are being forced to operate at reduced capacity. Kids are being kept out of school.

There are plans being made to not allow someone to go somewhere unless they can prove they have been vaccinated. Plans to require people to wear a device that takes their temperature and use that information to restrict where they go. The list goes on and on. We don't do this for any other virus. How much control are we supposed to give to these "experts" and politicians?

Also, people in other countries have protested the lockdowns and restrictions.

[Capsid]

Originally Posted by No Other

This example is a joke. You are going back to the last century (112 years ago) to point out that quarantining took place. Why don't you go back to the 15th century and the Black Plague? This is a pathetic approach for justification quarantining as a general practice. Let's go back to the life and times of 1908 to emphasize the need to quarantine as if we have not changed our demographics, our "way of life", how we conduct our interactions, advances in medicine, and so on. Indoor plumbing was a luxury, electricity was sporadic and yet you point to this time as an example...

This is a flat out false claim, it may occur within a household but not beyond that. Point to an example within the past 50 years where the healthy population was required to quarantine.

Why would the healthy population be quarantined? Cuba quarantined all HIV+ patients in 1983 though. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...od%20products1.

[Capsid]

Originally Posted by No Other

I love how you categorically call people who disagree with you as "deniers". I am a "denier" if it means calling out the facts. Address the facts and then an adult conversation can take place.

FACTS:

1. Cases are recorded... not people. A single person can represent multiple cases.
2. People who die with Covid-19 are cataloged as dying from Covid-19.
3. The RT-PCR is a manufacturing process and not a diagnostic tool.
4. The RT-PCR detects enzymes that are associated with the Covid-19 virus but it does not detect the RNA.
5. There is no standardization in the Ct when utilizing the RT-PCR process.
6. The RT-PCR does not detect if the virus is infectious or not.
7. The RT-PCR cannot determine when the Covid-19 entered your system.

Provide a counter argument to the above facts, keep out the hyperbole and anecdotal stories.

3. Wrong
4. It reverse transcribes the RNA into cDNA and that is amplified and detected
5. But there are calibrating standards for the assay
6. Identifying subgenomic RNA will tell you it's replicating and likely real virus

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by mike81

Wearing a mask is not the only thing we are being told to do. People have lost their jobs. They are being told to not visit family, not go to funerals, etc. Businesses are being forced to operate at reduced capacity. Kids are being kept out of school.

There are plans being made to not allow someone to go somewhere unless they can prove they have been vaccinated. Plans to require people to wear a device that takes their temperature and use that information to restrict where they go. The list goes on and on. We don't do this for any other virus. How much control are we supposed to give to these "experts" and politicians?

Also, people in other countries have protested the lockdowns and restrictions.

If people had just started wearing masks when they were asked to, many of these tougher restrictions would never have been necessary. Note that the states where the infection rates are highest now are places where there was the strongest resistance to basic measures.

And we are doing this with this particular virus because it is exceptionally communicable, exceptionally dangerous and at present basically incurable except in the course of nature. What do you think we would do if smallpox or bubonic plague was loose in the community?

[Capsid]

Originally Posted by No Other

A government imposing restrictions on people who do not take a "for profit" vaccine is the ultimate Authoritarian Control. You made a choice to work in the industry that you do, do not place on others the conditions you choose to follow.

Before you go down the path about school children and their mandatory vaccines, there is opt-out provided for those who do not want it. One opt-out is home schooling.

The Oxford vaccine is not for profit.

https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-ce...w-vaccine.html

Quote:

Company working on a number of agreements in parallel to ensure broad and equitable supply of the vaccine throughout the world at no profit during the pandemic

[marting]

Originally Posted by No Other

This is your quote..."Not so. The "flu season" is pretty much non-existent everywhere. " You are rewriting history.

See above about rewriting history... show me where I conflated Covid and the Flu.

OK. Here:

Originally Posted by No Other

Flattening out the curve was horrible; the virus did not go away, it actually provided longer residency in the USA. Since it lasted longer, it butted against the "flu season" and that is a huge component as to why we still have the virus and deaths.

That is nonsense.

I stand by the "No Flu Season" statement. Influenza has been occurring at rates well below Off Season rates during the Southern hemisphere's Flu Season. Further, Flu positivity rates have run 10X lower than what they normally run in the USA during it's Off Season. Flu just isn't a material factor in these deaths.

[Capsid]

Originally Posted by mike81

There are plans being made to not allow someone to go somewhere unless they can prove they have been vaccinated. Plans to require people to wear a device that takes their temperature and use that information to restrict where they go. The list goes on and on. We don't do this for any other virus. How much control are we supposed to give to these "experts" and politicians?

We have vaccines for other viruses that cause this much harm.

[mike81]

Originally Posted by Capsid

We have vaccines for other viruses that cause this much harm.

These plans that are being made extend to after we have the vaccine. Also the flu vaccine is nowhere near as effective as the ones for Coronavirus.