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Tags Coronavirus , diseases

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Old 17th November 2020, 12:28 PM   #2841
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
These plans that are being made extend to after we have the vaccine.
Which plans? Be specific.
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Old 17th November 2020, 12:33 PM   #2842
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Which plans? Be specific.
https://www.billboard.com/articles/b...-concerts-plan

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/15/t...r-privacy.html

They have also put people on house arrest for not quarantining. Are you ok with being told to quarantine all because your temp went up or you came in contact with someone else who had their temperature go up?

There are many more examples. Just do a search. I'm not going to do it all for you.

Last edited by mike81; 17th November 2020 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 17th November 2020, 12:39 PM   #2843
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I can't read the second without subscribing. The first looks like a reasonable interim solution. Until everyone has been vaccinated, and it's clear that it's working, surely precautions need to be taken?
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There are many more examples. Just do a search. I'm not going to do it all for you.
You're the one making the claim, you need to support it.
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Old 17th November 2020, 12:44 PM   #2844
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Also, people in other countries have protested the lockdowns and restrictions.
An insignificant, noisy, minority.

There are still people who doubt the Holocaust, and there are people who actually beloieve the earth is flat, so finding people who don't understand pandemics and exponential growth is no surprise.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...hs/6267612002/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-u...on-cases-week/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/23/u...lizations.html
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Old 17th November 2020, 12:48 PM   #2845
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I can't read the second without subscribing. The first looks like a reasonable interim solution. Until everyone has been vaccinated, and it's clear that it's working, surely precautions need to be taken?


You're the one making the claim, you need to support it.
Until everyone has been vaccinated? So now you are forcing everyone to be vaccinated? What if everyone does not get vaccinated or if not enough get vaccinated? Do we continue all these restrictions forever?
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Old 17th November 2020, 12:49 PM   #2846
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I don't read any alt-right websites...
OK, then. Maybe stay off Elon Musk's twitter feed.
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Old 17th November 2020, 12:53 PM   #2847
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Until everyone has been vaccinated? So now you are forcing everyone to be vaccinated? What if everyone does not get vaccinated or if not enough get vaccinated? Do we continue all these restrictions forever?
Well, at least until enough people have been vaccinated that the few who can't or won't are not significant.

Do you see a better way?
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Old 17th November 2020, 12:55 PM   #2848
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Well, at least until enough people have been vaccinated that the few who can't or won't are not significant.

Do you see a better way?

Yes. Stop grouping people who died with it in the same group as people who died of it. Stop counting people who were never tested. Stop letting one person be multiple cases. Stop using these ridiculous test that are very easy to get to show a positive if you want to. Stop acting like everyone who gets it is just dropping dead or has a very high chance of dropping dead when they actually have a low chance.

I know someone who told me that he got a phone call from a family friend in another state. They asked if he was okay because the media said how terrible things were in his area. He basically laughed and said that they were okay and things were not as bad as the media was making it out to be.

Last edited by mike81; 17th November 2020 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 17th November 2020, 01:07 PM   #2849
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
https://www.billboard.com/articles/b...-concerts-plan

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/15/t...r-privacy.html

They have also put people on house arrest for not quarantining. Are you ok with being told to quarantine all because your temp went up or you came in contact with someone else who had their temperature go up?
....
As I plan to get vaccinated as soon as I can, and as I miss going to live concerts, I think the Ticketmaster plan sounds great and will make me feel safer. Nobody needs to attend a show. Requiring voluntary compliance as a condition of admission guarantees a smarter, more responsible audience. What's the downside?
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Old 17th November 2020, 01:09 PM   #2850
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
As I plan to get vaccinated as soon as I can, and as I miss going to live concerts, I think the Ticketmaster plan sounds great and will make me feel safer. Nobody needs to attend a show. Requiring voluntary compliance as a condition of admission guarantees a smarter, more responsible audience. What's the downside?
Where does it end? Should we not be allowed to go to the grocery store if our temperature goes up? Should we not be allowed to go see family if our temperature goes up? How about if you come into contact with someone who's temperature went up? Just because we don't need to go to a concert or whatever does not mean that the restrictions are okay. Are you prepared to live in a place where the government controls us even more? A place where we have even less privacy than now?

Last edited by mike81; 17th November 2020 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 17th November 2020, 01:09 PM   #2851
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Yes. Stop grouping people who died with it in the same group as people who died of it. Stop counting people who were never tested. Stop letting one person be multiple cases. Stop using these ridiculous test that are very easy to get to show a positive if you want to. Stop acting like everyone who gets it is just dropping dead or has a very high chance of dropping dead when they actually have a low chance.
....
One more time: The death rates from covid are very high in comparison with other viral illnesses, and death is not the only bad outcome.
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Old 17th November 2020, 01:13 PM   #2852
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Where does it end? Should we not be allowed to go to the grocery store if our temperature goes up? Should we not be allowed to go see family of our temperature goes up?
Did you read your own link? The Billboard plan would require proof of vaccination, or proof of a recent negative covid test. That's way more specific than "if your temperature goes up."

Seeing your family is between you and them. Reasonable conditions for entering a public place -- including getting on a plane -- are, well, reasonable.
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Old 17th November 2020, 01:14 PM   #2853
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Did you read your own link? The Billboard plan would require proof of vaccination, or proof of a recent negative covid test. That's way more specific than "if your temperature goes up."

Seeing your family is between you and them. Reasonable conditions for entering a public place -- including getting on a plane -- are, well, reasonable.
Did you read the second link? Also, places like New York are trying to prevent people from seeing their own family but sheriffs have said they will not enforce it. People are also being made to be scared to go see their family.

Last edited by mike81; 17th November 2020 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 17th November 2020, 01:28 PM   #2854
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Did you read the second link? Also, places like New York are trying to prevent people from seeing their own family but sheriffs have said they will not enforce it. People are also being made to be scared to go see their family.
People should be scared to visit their family.
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Old 17th November 2020, 01:48 PM   #2855
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Where does it end? Should we not be allowed to go to the grocery store if our temperature goes up? Should we not be allowed to go see family if our temperature goes up? How about if you come into contact with someone who's temperature went up?
No. We should not be allowed to recklessly endanger the lives of others.

Quote:
Are you prepared to live in a place where the government controls us even more? A place where we have even less privacy than now?
Yes. This pandemic has proved that we do need more government control.

But hey, I'm open to alternatives. If you come near me in a public place showing signs of infection and and/or not wearing a mask, or come onto my property without invitation then I should have the right to treat you like a zombie.

BOOM, head shot!
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Old 17th November 2020, 01:48 PM   #2856
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Where does it end? Should we not be allowed to go to the grocery store if our temperature goes up? Should we not be allowed to go see family if our temperature goes up? How about if you come into contact with someone who's temperature went up? Just because we don't need to go to a concert or whatever does not mean that the restrictions are okay. Are you prepared to live in a place where the government controls us even more? A place where we have even less privacy than now?

Should we not be allowed to go to the grocery store if we're not wearing pants? Should we not be allowed to go to a concert if we're carrying three dobermans and a running chainsaw? Should we not be allowed to operate a construction crane if we're wearing a blindfold? My God, WHERE DOES IT END?
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Old 17th November 2020, 01:58 PM   #2857
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I got it. Some of you are ok with more government control, surveillance, and less freedom. That doesn't mean we all have to be.
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Old 17th November 2020, 02:06 PM   #2858
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Refined sugar, alcohol, GMOs, sodas, butter and many many other foods damage various organs.
No they don't.

Your attempt to equate life-sustaining food to a deadly virus is pathetic.

And 'GMOs', seriously? There is no evidence that the genetically modified foods produced so far are any less healthy than 'organic' products. In fact it's kind of silly because every GMO (or non-GMO) foodstuff is different. GMO is merely a method of producing different varieties.

"Ah but", you may counter, "even the most 'healthy' foods damage organs!". Please don't try that shtick here - it won't work.
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Old 17th November 2020, 02:07 PM   #2859
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I got it. Some of you are ok with more government control, surveillance, and less freedom. That doesn't mean we all have to be.
We live in a community. Your freedom ends where mine begins. We restrict smoking in public places. Vaccinations are required as a condition of attending school. Drunk drivers go to jail. Someone with active TB can be quarantined. Etc., etc. You can't yell "freedom!" and do whatever you want, even if it hurts other people.
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Old 17th November 2020, 02:24 PM   #2860
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Are you ok with being told to quarantine all because your temp went up or you came in contact with someone else who had their temperature go up?
Yes! Without hesitation! Why is this even a question? If it helps to limit the spread of a deadly pandemic, a quarantine is absolutely worth the inconvenience.

Anyone who thinks differently is a clear and present danger to others.
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Old 17th November 2020, 02:27 PM   #2861
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If they see plenty of people being vaccinated and they are fine, then hopefully their resolve to avoid it will weaken.
Some will, but others will simply free-load on the theory that enough people have been vaccinated that they won't have to. But it won't be enough.

Quote:
I was also like to see restrictions imposed on people who will not take the vaccine. I work in care and we have this year been told we must get the flu vaccine. I could see various jobs saying no to those who refuse vaccinations.
Fair enough, an employer should have the right to take reasonable measures against spreading the the virus (or any virus) just like they can stop you coming to work drunk or on drugs. However if it is mandated then everybody should get free vaccinations, then there is no excuse for not complying.

Some libertarian types would object to all this of course. To them I say, OK but you will have to wear the costs. One employee infects 2 customers who go on to infect 2,000 others and kill dozens? You pay for it! (including the wrongful deaths).
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Old 17th November 2020, 02:38 PM   #2862
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
No they don't.

Your attempt to equate life-sustaining food to a deadly virus is pathetic.
Except when it's not.

The overwhelming majority of covid deaths occur with underlying health issues such as heart disease, obesity and type 2 diabetes; all nutritionally based health issues.

Take these numbers out of the mix and the death rate drops dramatically.

It's a big news story when someone with " no apparent underlying health issues " dies from covid...
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Old 17th November 2020, 02:45 PM   #2863
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I guess that depends on what they meant by "the death rate is going down". Early on upwards of 80% of the people that reached the critical state where they needed to go to ICU and/or be put on a ventilator died. The rate is apparently much lower now, so if the CFR was originally 1% it's probabaly more like 0.5% now.
He said death rate, not CFR.

The death rate is not going down, it's going up.
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Old 17th November 2020, 02:50 PM   #2864
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Should we not be allowed to go to the grocery store if we're not wearing pants? Should we not be allowed to go to a concert if we're carrying three dobermans and a running chainsaw? Should we not be allowed to operate a construction crane if we're wearing a blindfold? My God, WHERE DOES IT END?
Perfect response!

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The overwhelming majority of covid deaths occur with underlying health issues such as heart disease, obesity and type 2 diabetes; all nutritionally based health issues.
Did you realise the number one factor for dying of Covid is actually intellectual disability?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/h...abilities.html

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It's a big news story when someone with " no apparent underlying health issues " dies from covid...
Really?

It's surprising that the deaths of 1375 health workers in USA alone isn't blasted all over every front page.

But I suppose lots of doctors and nurses are really old and unfit.
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Old 17th November 2020, 02:51 PM   #2865
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Meanwhile...

Victoria records no new coronavirus cases and no deaths for 19 consecutive days
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Old 17th November 2020, 02:58 PM   #2866
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
As I plan to get vaccinated as soon as I can, and as I miss going to live concerts, I think the Ticketmaster plan sounds great and will make me feel safer. Nobody needs to attend a show. Requiring voluntary compliance as a condition of admission guarantees a smarter, more responsible audience. What's the downside?
Even If they insisted on vaccinating me every time I went to the cinema I would be absolutely fine with that...
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Old 17th November 2020, 03:01 PM   #2867
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
....................
Did you realise the number one factor for dying of Covid is actually intellectual disability?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/h...abilities.html



Really?

It's surprising that the deaths of 1375 health workers in USA alone isn't blasted all over every front page.

But I suppose lots of doctors and nurses are really old and unfit.
Are you suggesting those with disabilities and health care professionals don't have underlying health issues? Particularly the ones I listed?

I see unfit doctors and nurses all the time.. Maybe it's different where you are..

Check again, and re-parse your numbers..

( I didn't mention " Old " as one of those issues . )
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Old 17th November 2020, 03:19 PM   #2868
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Except when it's not...

It's a big news story when someone with " no apparent underlying health issues " dies from covid...
Pathetic.

But I look forward to using that argument in court:-
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you must acquit because had the victim not been such an arrogant Covid-denying prick, my client would not not have flown into a rage and beat him to within an inch of his life. And without the underlying health issue of being too unfit, he might probably would not have died!".
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Old 17th November 2020, 03:44 PM   #2869
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Are you ok with being told to quarantine all because your temp went up or you came in contact with someone else who had their temperature go up?
Many people can be carriers of COVID-19 without symptoms at all. If you get a temperature you have to assume that you can infect others until you have been proven negative.

That happened to me and my wife when she got a cough, headache, and muscle pains. We let ourselves be tested, and isolated us until the result came in two days later. By that time none of us were feeling ill at all.
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Old 17th November 2020, 03:53 PM   #2870
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I see unfit doctors and nurses all the time.. Maybe it's different where you are..
So it's argument by anecdote now?

Quote:
Are you suggesting those with disabilities and health care professionals don't have underlying health issues? Particularly the ones I listed?... ( I didn't mention " Old " as one of those issues . )
In today's medical system, almost everybody has some kind of 'underlying health issue', and 'old' people almost always have several. When I had a checkup a couple of weeks ago, the doctor detected a 'very slight' heart murmur. I have no history of heart problems of any kind, but according to you that means if I catch Covid-19 and die then the virus didn't kill me. That's BS.

Anyone who would not have died without being infected should be counted. Anyone whose life was significantly shortened by it should be counted. Having some other 'underlying health issue' does not mean the virus wasn't deadly. Without it those people would probably still be enjoying life.

But hey, have fun continuing your transparent attempt to minimize the danger of this virus by implying that only 'sick, dying, and irresponsibly unhealthy' people who get it are likely to die, and therefore it's nothing to worry about.
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Old 17th November 2020, 03:59 PM   #2871
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Many people can be carriers of COVID-19 without symptoms at all. If you get a temperature you have to assume that you can infect others until you have been proven negative.

That happened to me and my wife when she got a cough, headache, and muscle pains. We let ourselves be tested, and isolated us until the result came in two days later. By that time none of us were feeling ill at all.

Should we live this way forever? I guess we should do these same things for the flu? It's like people think viruses are something new.
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Old 17th November 2020, 04:03 PM   #2872
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Should we live this way forever? I guess we should do these same things for the flu? It's like people think viruses are something new.
As I demonstrated upthread, it would certainly help.
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Old 17th November 2020, 04:08 PM   #2873
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As I demonstrated upthread, it would certainly help.
Well then lots more lives will be destroyed. Far more than from the virus. Just because you are ok with that does not make it right.
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Old 17th November 2020, 04:10 PM   #2874
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
...

But hey, have fun continuing your transparent attempt to minimize the danger of this virus by implying that only 'sick, dying, and irresponsibly unhealthy' people who get it are likely to die, and therefore it's nothing to worry about.
You must be running dangerously low on straw about now...
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Old 17th November 2020, 04:38 PM   #2875
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Looks like immunity after Covid-19 lasts more than a few months. Encouraging for vaccines.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...11.15.383323v1
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Old 17th November 2020, 04:49 PM   #2876
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Well then lots more lives will be destroyed. Far more than from the virus. Just because you are ok with that does not make it right.
Wearing a mask, keeping my distance from other people and washing my hands carefully destroys my life a whole lot less than ******* dying from pneumonia.
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Old 17th November 2020, 05:14 PM   #2877
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Should we live this way forever? I guess we should do these same things for the flu? It's like people think viruses are something new.
You really don't understand the difference, do you? You think all viruses are the same? Viruses can cause anything from colds to flu to meningitis to ebola. Covid is much deadlier than flu, much more contagious, and, maybe most significant, can be spread by people who show no symptoms themselves. That's why we treat it differently from the flu.
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Old 17th November 2020, 05:46 PM   #2878
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Please tell more... such as an example. Be sure to include, in your examples, those mandated on the general population.


Federal Law
Quote:
The federal government derives its authority for isolation and quarantine from the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code ß 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

The authority for carrying out these functions on a daily basis has been delegated to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

CDC’s Role
Under 42 Code of Federal Regulations parts 70 and 71, CDC is authorized to detain, medically examine, and release persons arriving into the United States and traveling between states who are suspected of carrying these communicable diseases.
Intra-state, there are state laws.
Quote:
State, Local, and Tribal Law
States have police power functions to protect the health, safety, and welfare of persons within their borders. To control the spread of disease within their borders, states have laws to enforce the use of isolation and quarantine.

These laws can vary from state to state and can be specific or broad. In some states, local health authorities implement state law. In most states, breaking a quarantine order is a criminal misdemeanor.
We try to encourage the person, but if not then they can be arrested in WA State if a public health officer order is ignored.
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Old 17th November 2020, 05:49 PM   #2879
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Hospitals are. This is not debatable it is on the books and even Medicare is paying out enormous sums of $ for a "Covid-19 death".

I am not suggesting that Hospitals are inflating their Covid-19 death rate, I am only addressing the compensation aspect.
You really need to stop.

Hospitals don't bill based on what is on a death certificate.
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Old 17th November 2020, 05:52 PM   #2880
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Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
Why would the healthy population be quarantined? Cuba quarantined all HIV+ patients in 1983 though. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...od%20products1.
We do ask people exposed to certain communicable diseases to quarantine themselves if they are at risk of becoming infected and would be contagious before symptoms start.

Measles quarantine fits this scenario. Almost no one refuses to self isolate after measles exposures.

This pandemic is a completely new ball of wax.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 17th November 2020 at 06:12 PM.
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