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Tags Coronavirus , diseases

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Old 17th November 2020, 05:59 PM   #2881
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I got it. Some of you are ok with more government control, surveillance, and less freedom. That doesn't mean we all have to be.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I don't want anyone running around the grocery store with a running chainsaw.

If people don't close up shop and wear masks, they're going to be out of business anyway when all their customers and employees are sick.

Have you considered an alternative plan for overflowing hospitals and morgues?
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Old 17th November 2020, 06:02 PM   #2882
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Except when it's not.

The overwhelming majority of covid deaths occur with underlying health issues such as heart disease, obesity and type 2 diabetes; all nutritionally based health issues.

Take these numbers out of the mix and the death rate drops dramatically.

It's a big news story when someone with " no apparent underlying health issues " dies from covid...
Well good then, we've cut those sickly populations down by 250,000.

As soon as the rest all die off we can go back to business as usual.
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Old 17th November 2020, 06:04 PM   #2883
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Are you suggesting those with disabilities and health care professionals don't have underlying health issues? Particularly the ones I listed?

I see unfit doctors and nurses all the time.. Maybe it's different where you are..

Check again, and re-parse your numbers..

( I didn't mention " Old " as one of those issues . )
Your post suggests a serious case of naivety.
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Old 17th November 2020, 06:09 PM   #2884
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Should we live this way forever? I guess we should do these same things for the flu? It's like people think viruses are something new.
The idea is to 1) flatten the curve so hospitals are not overrun and 2) keep as many people alive for as long as we can because treatments and vaccines will eventually get here.

Turns out it lasted about a year. We'll be in the clear in the Western World in about 5 more months: March 2020 to March 2021;
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Old 17th November 2020, 06:10 PM   #2885
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Well then lots more lives will be destroyed. Far more than from the virus. Just because you are ok with that does not make it right.
Yeah, because losing one's job is so much worse than dying.
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Old 17th November 2020, 06:11 PM   #2886
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
You must be running dangerously low on straw about now...
It is what you said.
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Old 17th November 2020, 07:00 PM   #2887
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Well then lots more lives will be destroyed. Far more than from the virus. Just because you are ok with that does not make it right.
The economic consequences of the pandemic are entirely the result of political malfeasance. The Congress could have chosen to provide continued extra unemployment money to people who lost their jobs, more support for small businesses, rent relief and more. The Democratic House passed a multi-trillion dollar bill in May; Mitch McConnell has been sitting on it since. If people's lives are being destroyed, it's not only because of covid.

Last edited by Bob001; 17th November 2020 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 17th November 2020, 07:36 PM   #2888
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It is what you said.
What I said, was that an overwhelming majority of covid deaths are accompanied by other serious underlying health issues.

Are you saying that is not the case?

Naivety? How about denialism?

Meanwhile, you are suffering from the same straw shortage as Ramjets..

Don't play silly games and make me quote the arguments you are attributing to me, that i did not make.

All you have to do is quote what I actually said, and make your arguments accordingly.
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Old 17th November 2020, 07:51 PM   #2889
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
What I said, was that an overwhelming majority of covid deaths are accompanied by other serious underlying health issues.
....
If that's true -- and I'd question "overwhelming majority" -- the question is still "So what?" Nearly half of all Americans are overweight. A large percentage, particularly older people, have high blood pressure. A large percentage have allergies. Etc., etc. So what? If people die of covid infections and have other conditions, it doesn't mean that those other conditions caused their deaths. What is the point you are trying to make? That perfect physical specimens don't have to worry? There aren't many of those, and they die, too.
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Old 17th November 2020, 08:10 PM   #2890
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You really need to stop.

Hospitals don't bill based on what is on a death certificate.
You are wrong in this case. They have admitted they are paying hospitals more money. Are you really that blind?
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Old 17th November 2020, 08:12 PM   #2891
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Wearing a mask, keeping my distance from other people and washing my hands carefully destroys my life a whole lot less than ******* dying from pneumonia.

Again those are not the only things we are being told to do.

Last edited by zooterkin; 18th November 2020 at 05:36 AM. Reason: Rule 10 in quote
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Old 17th November 2020, 08:18 PM   #2892
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Again those are not the only things we are being told to do.
Are we being told that we need to die from pneumonia? If not, then whatever it is we are being told to do ruins my life a lot less.
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Old 17th November 2020, 08:21 PM   #2893
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Are we being told that we need to die from pneumonia? If not, then whatever it is we are being asked to do ruins my life a lot less.
So you're okay with however far they go? No matter what they do to invade your privacy or take away your freedom? I got news for you, I'm not and plenty of others are not.
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Old 17th November 2020, 08:34 PM   #2894
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
What I said, was that an overwhelming majority of covid deaths are accompanied by other serious underlying health issues.
That's fine then.

People with diabetes, heart disease and other complaints can just **** off and die.

Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
So you're okay with however far they go? No matter what they do to invade your privacy or take away your freedom? I got news for you, I'm not and plenty of others are not.
As already noted - you're in a tiny minority. If you don't like rules, go somewhere you don't need to obey them. Brazil's pretty relaxed about it, and Tanzania doesn't acknowledge it all.

You keep repeating the same mantra to the extent that you appear to be trying to convince yourself, because you're not making any headway on others.

To show how utterly ridiculous and contradictory your bollocks has been, you claim cases are vastly overstated because people have multiple tests.

That would mean the disease is more deadly, not less. But, of course, you're only counting deaths that fit your personal view of what evidence actually means.

Do go on, it's free to post and you're only making yourself look sillier with every post.
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Old 17th November 2020, 08:41 PM   #2895
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
So you're okay with however far they go? No matter what they do to invade your privacy or take away your freedom? I got news for you, I'm not and plenty of others are not.
Invasion of privacy and restriction of freedom are a whole lot better to me than dying from pneumonia.

Would you rather be told to stay in your house for 6 days or would you rather die painfully, unable to breathe? I think you'll find the answer pretty easy.
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Old 17th November 2020, 08:46 PM   #2896
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's fine then.

People with diabetes, heart disease and other complaints can just **** off and die.



As already noted - you're in a tiny minority. If you don't like rules, go somewhere you don't need to obey them. Brazil's pretty relaxed about it, and Tanzania doesn't acknowledge it all.

You keep repeating the same mantra to the extent that you appear to be trying to convince yourself, because you're not making any headway on others.

To show how utterly ridiculous and contradictory your bollocks has been, you claim cases are vastly overstated because people have multiple tests.

That would mean the disease is more deadly, not less. But, of course, you're only counting deaths that fit your personal view of what evidence actually means.

Do go on, it's free to post and you're only making yourself look sillier with every post.
I'm going with the infection fatality rate which is way less than most people think. And I really don't give a damn what somebody on the internet thinks of me. I'm guarantee most of you aren't anywhere near as smart as you think.
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Old 17th November 2020, 09:12 PM   #2897
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Yes. Stop grouping people who died with it in the same group as people who died of it. Stop counting people who were never tested. Stop letting one person be multiple cases. Stop using these ridiculous test that are very easy to get to show a positive if you want to. Stop acting like everyone who gets it is just dropping dead or has a very high chance of dropping dead when they actually have a low chance.

I know someone who told me that he got a phone call from a family friend in another state. They asked if he was okay because the media said how terrible things were in his area. He basically laughed and said that they were okay and things were not as bad as the media was making it out to be.
This Trumpian thinking is ridiculous.

That is not how it works. By this logic of yours those with terminal cancer don’t die due to cancer, they die because their heart stops.

Medical authorities are far smarter than you think and actually cite the underlying cause. People with diabetes who contract covid and die did not die of diabetes. Covid was the underlying cause. Other factors effect the chance of dying, but covid pushes them over the edge.
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Old 17th November 2020, 09:36 PM   #2898
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's fine then.

People with diabetes, heart disease and other complaints can just **** off and die.



As already noted - you're in a tiny minority. If you don't like rules, go somewhere you don't need to obey them. Brazil's pretty relaxed about it, and Tanzania doesn't acknowledge it all.

You keep repeating the same mantra to the extent that you appear to be trying to convince yourself, because you're not making any headway on others.

To show how utterly ridiculous and contradictory your bollocks has been, you claim cases are vastly overstated because people have multiple tests.

That would mean the disease is more deadly, not less. But, of course, you're only counting deaths that fit your personal view of what evidence actually means.

Do go on, it's free to post and you're only making yourself look sillier with every post.
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This Trumpian thinking is ridiculous.

That is not how it works. By this logic of yours those with terminal cancer don’t die due to cancer, they die because their heart stops.

Medical authorities are far smarter than you think and actually cite the underlying cause. People with diabetes who contract covid and die did not die of diabetes. Covid was the underlying cause. Other factors effect the chance of dying, but covid pushes them over the edge.
So you're saying that having Covid-19 and dying in a car accident, from cancer, etc. should be counted in the numbers of deaths? Because they are doing that and it has been admitted.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:00 PM   #2899
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post


As already noted - you're in a tiny minority. If you don't like rules, go somewhere you don't need to obey them. Brazil's pretty relaxed about it, and Tanzania doesn't acknowledge it all.
If you want to live in a place where the government can put all these ridiculous restrictions on you and even tell you that you can't see your family even though you are not sick, then you can go elsewhere.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:07 PM   #2900
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
If you want to live in a place where the government can put all these ridiculous restrictions on you and even tell you that you can't see your family even though you are not sick, then you can go elsewhere.
Oh give it a rest with the libertarian bull. Governments have the right and the duty to impose restrictions on the population in order to curb the spread of a deadly pandemic. I don't care if you're personally inconvenienced by it. It's not all about you. This "don't tread on me" crap puts people at risk of death. Suck it up. Wear a mask. Don't go to crowded places. Wash your hands. The longer you refuse to take these simple precautions, the harder it will be to save lives.

I hope you're okay with having death on your hands - possibly even your own - to protect your precious "liberty".
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:17 PM   #2901
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I hope you're okay with having death on your hands - possibly even your own - to protect your precious "liberty".
I won't have any deaths on my hands and the chances that I will die from Covid-19 are extremely small. Stop with the mightier than thou virtue signaling. If it makes you feel special wearing a mask or whatever else you think you're doing to save lives, then you go right ahead. We live in a time where everyone thinks they are special or wants to be special. You need a participation trophy? How about a safe space?

Last edited by mike81; 17th November 2020 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:36 PM   #2902
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The economic consequences of the pandemic are entirely the result of political malfeasance. The Congress could have chosen to provide continued extra unemployment money to people who lost their jobs, more support for small businesses, rent relief and more. The Democratic House passed a multi-trillion dollar bill in May; Mitch McConnell has been sitting on it since. If people's lives are being destroyed, it's not only because of covid.
Partially disagree here. Not *entirely.* Nearly regardless of what had been done (outside of squashing it at its source and cutting off all spread initially), there would have been economic consequences. That the economic consequences are overwhelmingly worse than they could have been can be called political malfeasance just fine, though, both in regards to the executive and legislative branches.

Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
So you're saying that having Covid-19 and dying in a car accident, from cancer, etc. should be counted in the numbers of deaths? Because they are doing that and it has been admitted.
Very simple question - what percentage of the total number qualifies as such?

Also, your examples seem to be... much less indicative than you seem to be presenting. If a person has inflammation of the brain as a result of Covid-19 and that affects their ability to drive enough that they crash and die, I have no problem with allowing Covid-19 to be stated as one of the factors involved. If someone was managing to survive alright with their cancer being treated and Covid-19 was enough to tip the scales so they end up dying much sooner than they would have otherwise? Totally fine with Covid-19 being listed as one of the contributing factors. For that matter, that applies pretty well to most of the pre-existing conditions that those who want to downplay it keep wanting removed from the counts.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:43 PM   #2903
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Partially disagree here. Not *entirely.* Nearly regardless of what had been done (outside of squashing it at its source and cutting off all spread initially), there would have been economic consequences. That the economic consequences are overwhelmingly worse than they could have been can be called political malfeasance just fine, though, both in regards to the executive and legislative branches.



Very simple question - what percentage of the total number qualifies as such?
As far as I know, there is no way to know. They includ them in the totals without making a distinction.
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Old 17th November 2020, 10:43 PM   #2904
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
So you're saying that having Covid-19 and dying in a car accident, from cancer, etc. should be counted in the numbers of deaths? Because they are doing that and it has been admitted.
Prove it. With a reliable source.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:20 PM   #2905
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
As far as I know, there is no way to know. They includ them in the totals without making a distinction.
The gross totals, perhaps. I seem to recall that the CDC has lists that can be explored to find out much more about the set of listed contributing factors, though... and that there have been states that have actively worked to distinguish between with and of, once they were more able to do so. Still, I may as well continue this with a related lead in to lionking.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Prove it. With a reliable source.
To be clear, mike81 is almost certainly correct here in that Covid-19 might be listed as a contributing cause if actually found to be present upon death, and was previously in some places.

To poke at Washington, just for ease's sake, though, it was back in June that they acted to change that to more accurate reporting - including working to remove deaths with covid only present from the counts of deaths of covid as a contributing factor.

Also of some relevance to the issue, it's worth taking a peek at one of the more... publicized cases that would fit the claim, if true.

Quote:
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) recently went on Fox & Friends and complained that reports of his state's COVID-19 deaths were greatly exaggerated. He used as an example a person from Orlando who had died in a motorcycle crash. DeSantis said the death "was categorized as a COVID death just because the person had previously tested positive. We've had other incidents in which there's no real relationship, and it's been counted. So, we want to look at that and see how pervasive that issue is as well."

The local CBS affiliate followed up on this report and asked the chief medical examiner for Orange and Osceola counties, Joshua Stephany, MD, about the case. The medical examiner responded that, following the motorcycle crash, "the person was subsequently hospitalized for a long period of time, got pneumonia. It happened to be COVID pneumonia, and they died.... In that case, we did [attribute] it to COVID pneumonia."

It was recently reported that Florida medical examiners are facing a massive backlog of uncounted COVID-19 deaths caused by understaffing and budget cuts.

So who decides whether a person has died from COVID-19 or with it? Most death certificates are written by a doctor in a hospital after a patient in their care has died. In some cases, these death certificates are reviewed by the local coroner or medical examiner for accuracy, and to make sure that the patient's death was not due to an accident or injury -- because, by law, accidents, homicides, and suicides have to be investigated by the county, usually with a forensic autopsy.

The death of a motorcyclist who goes to the hospital for treatment of trauma due to a motor vehicle accident would definitely fall under the jurisdiction of the medical examiner. If, however, that motorcyclist had acquired a COVID-19 infection while hospitalized for their injuries -- as in the case cited by Stephany -- then that patient must also be counted as a COVID-19 death.
As a general matter, the with vs of issue could be said to have been more of an issue early on. Not so much at present - and it seems to be and have been greatly outweighed by inaccuracies in the other direction, regardless. Also, it's an issue that has been greatly magnified beyond actual significance by those with political motive to do so.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:38 PM   #2906
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
So you're saying that having Covid-19 and dying in a car accident, from cancer, etc. should be counted in the numbers of deaths? Because they are doing that and it has been admitted.
It's a myth that any death certificates call a trauma victim a COVID death. A MYTH!!!
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:55 PM   #2907
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Should we live this way forever? I guess we should do these same things for the flu? It's like people think viruses are something new.

The flu is not as infectious as COVID-19. This is something new.

We’ll have to live like this until society can achieve herd immunity through vaccinations.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:55 PM   #2908
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh give it a rest with the libertarian bull. Governments have the right and the duty to impose restrictions on the population in order to curb the spread of a deadly pandemic. I don't care if you're personally inconvenienced by it. It's not all about you. This "don't tread on me" crap puts people at risk of death. Suck it up. Wear a mask. Don't go to crowded places. Wash your hands. The longer you refuse to take these simple precautions, the harder it will be to save lives.

I hope you're okay with having death on your hands - possibly even your own - to protect your precious "liberty".

While I agree in general, it can become difficult for some to follow rules that are purported to be based on science but don't make sense. Those that think not wearing a mask is some macho thing can get lumped in with small business owners that attempt to do what's right only to be impacted disproportionately. This included allowing mega stores to stay open while small businesses were forced to close.

To point out one that was amazingly stupid to myself, here in NJ they reopened indoor amusement parks before indoor dining. So, I could take my kids and run around Chuck e Cheese, but could not sit down and have a pizza in that same establishment. (To be clear I didn't do either) I have not seen science that would suggest this was prudent. It was mainly because restaurants could survive a bit better on outdoor dining and take out vs the indoor amusement parks. So it was picking which businesses could earn vs others, science be damned.
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Old 17th November 2020, 11:59 PM   #2909
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I won't have any deaths on my hands and the chances that I will die from Covid-19 are extremely small. Stop with the mightier than thou virtue signaling. If it makes you feel special wearing a mask or whatever else you think you're doing to save lives, then you go right ahead. We live in a time where everyone thinks they are special or wants to be special. You need a participation trophy? How about a safe space?
Such as someone who thinks wearing a mask because it protects others is an overreach by the government? Sorry, you're living in a society. If you wish to be free of the government telling what you should do, find a nice unoccupied section of land in the Pacific Northwest, build a log cabin, heat it with wood you chop yourself, feed yourself on what you can grow, gather, and hunt, and tan the hides yourself for your clothing.
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Old 18th November 2020, 12:39 AM   #2910
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Wrong. They have admitted that those deaths are not all from the same exact day. It's just that they get recorded that day. Some of those people actually died on other days. This is not some damn conspiracy theory. Sorry if they don't say this on CNN
We all know that.

Our State Government Premier has been telling us that all through lockdown.

We understand all this, and we understand the need to be locked down.


Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Also, let me repeat, the death rate is going down.
Over what period?

Our Premier and Chief Health Officers explain that less testing results come through on weekends, so the rates on Monday and Tuesday are higher as they get done.

We all know this.

This is why "the death rate is going down" over the past 3 days.


Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I got it. Some of you are ok with more government control, surveillance, and less freedom. That doesn't mean we all have to be.
If you want to call it that.

I call it Government and expert directives, contact tracing, and personal protective measures.

Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
If you want to live in a place where the government can put all these ridiculous restrictions on you and even tell you that you can't see your family even though you are not sick, then you can go elsewhere.
How do you know you're not sick if you're contagious in the first few days to a week before symptoms appear?

How would you like to be Patient Zero in your town and be the one who causes the usual exponential infection rates after infecting one or a few people in their social bubble?

Our hotel quarantine breach caused the deaths of 700 people. Would you happy you did that?
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Old 18th November 2020, 01:03 AM   #2911
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I'm going with the infection fatality rate which is way less than most people think.
Is it?

What do "most people" think it is? And please give evidence to support that ir we'll just think you pulled it out of your nether regions.

The IFR is less than currently showing, but it's also unquestionably higher than influenza.

Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I'm guarantee most of you aren't anywhere near as smart as you think.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm 100% certain I'm as smart as I think I am.

Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
So you're saying that having Covid-19 and dying in a car accident, from cancer, etc. should be counted in the numbers of deaths? Because they are doing that and it has been admitted.
Utter baloney. It's possible one or two cases may have been misidentified, but there is ample evidence showing the actual fatality total is under-estimated.

Again, if you think you have evidence to support your claim, bring it on, because I have a wealth of evidence to the contrary. It's already been posted, but I'm happy to squash another false claim on the subject.

Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
If you want to live in a place where the government can put all these ridiculous restrictions on you and even tell you that you can't see your family even though you are not sick, then you can go elsewhere.
It's ok mate, I already live somewhere that did just that.

We eliminated the virus twice and the mortality rate here is 5, as against USA's 766. Oh yeah, and we have zero restrictions, with 50,000 people at rugby games and 25,000 at a trotting meeting last week.

If you want to talk economic harm, I can prove beyond doubt that countries which eliminated the virus are enormously out-performing those which did not.

I'm not sorry the real world shows your posts to be full of ****.

Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I won't have any deaths on my hands..
Ah, you're psychic - now I understand your problem.

Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
... and the chances that I will die from Covid-19 are extremely small.
Finally, you out yourself.

"I'm all right Jack, **** you."

Nice.
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Old 18th November 2020, 01:47 AM   #2912
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I hope you're okay with having death on your hands - possibly even your own - to protect your precious "liberty".
I keep being reminded of Lord Farquaad: "Some of you may die, but that's a risk I'm prepared to take."

The worst thing is, there's actually a valid point hidden in the BS - which is going to cause more harm in the long term? Letting the virus loose and damn the torpedoes, or lock up and kill the virus? Who's doing better right now, China or USA?

We have no way of knowing what the long term result will be, but something I said very early in the pandemic is that the worst option is to have restrictions and fail to halt the virus, ensuring the worst of both worlds. Europe & USA seem to have gone for that strategy.
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:06 AM   #2913
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
If that's true -- and I'd question "overwhelming majority" -- the question is still "So what?" Nearly half of all Americans are overweight. A large percentage, particularly older people, have high blood pressure. A large percentage have allergies. Etc., etc. So what? If people die of covid infections and have other conditions, it doesn't mean that those other conditions caused their deaths.
It means precisely that, if they would have lived in the absence of the other conditions, and the statistics imply that they would have..

Comorbidity and its Impact on Patients with COVID-19

Conclusion: ( Excerpt)

Quote:
Due to SARS CoV-2 being a relatively new virus, the data available is limited. However, patients with comorbidities have more deteriorating outcomes compared with patients without. COVID-19 patients with history of hypertension, obesity, chronic lung disease, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease have the worst prognosis and most often end up with deteriorating outcomes such as ARDS and pneumonia.

It represents a failure of the healthcare system in general ( Not healthcare workers, before the sanctimonious jump on me for implying such..) and the political engine that drives it, not just for covid 19, but for the health and well being of everyone in general.
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Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 18th November 2020 at 07:20 AM.
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:15 AM   #2914
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
The flu is not as infectious as COVID-19. This is something new.

We’ll have to live like this until society can achieve herd immunity through vaccinations.

There are better ways to deal with it as the countries implementing the elimination strategy have shown us. I can recommend this article in Videnskab.dk yesterday:
Forskere: Spredningen af COVID-19 kan næsten bremses gennem 8 ugers internationalt samarbejde
Researchers: The spread of COVID-19 can almost be stopped by means of 8-week-long international cooperation

The article is based on this study:
Global COVID-19 pandemic demands joint interventions for the suppression of future waves
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, Sep. 28/Oct. 20, 2020)
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:24 AM   #2915
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The worst thing is, there's actually a valid point hidden in the BS - which is going to cause more harm in the long term? Letting the virus loose and damn the torpedoes, or lock up and kill the virus? Who's doing better right now, China or USA?
We're doing the thing that may be worse than either of those - half measures.
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:28 AM   #2916
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It means precisely that, if they would have lived in the absence of the other conditions, and the statistics imply that they would have..
Your reference is talking about people with high blood pressure and diabetes. My mother, for example, has been living with both those conditions for 40 years.
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:44 AM   #2917
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Your reference is talking about people with high blood pressure and diabetes. My mother, for example, has been living with both those conditions for 40 years.
Yes, hypertension appears to be at the top of most graphs, but most likely would be accompanied by conditions such as heat disease and diabetes listed further down.

From the quoted text:
" ...COVID-19 patients with history of hypertension, obesity, chronic lung disease, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease have the worst prognosis ".

The worst prognosis could of course, include death.



Another problem with hypertension is that a lot of it is undiagnosed and untreated; particularly among people of color, who are also high in the covid 19 statistics. Another result of the failure of the " Healthcare " system to identify and " care " for people at risk.

Patients With Undiagnosed Hypertension
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:52 AM   #2918
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I got it. Some of you are ok with more government control, surveillance, and less freedom. That doesn't mean we all have to be.
I find that most of the people who think pandemic related restrictions are perfectly fine with police beating and potentially killing people for not immediately obeying whatever order the police choose to give them. This makes me doubt there is any real concern form freedom involved in the objections we see to these restrictions.
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Old 18th November 2020, 08:01 AM   #2919
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Except when it's not.

The overwhelming majority of covid deaths occur with underlying health issues such as heart disease, obesity and type 2 diabetes; all nutritionally based health issues.

Take these numbers out of the mix and the death rate drops dramatically.
Are you implying these people have less value or that their deaths don't matter as much?

If a drunk driver kills someone should they get to claim it's not really their fault because that person had underlying conditions and maybe they would have survived the injuries otherwise?
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Old 18th November 2020, 08:06 AM   #2920
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
What I said, was that an overwhelming majority of covid deaths are accompanied by other serious underlying health issues.
What you haven't done is explain why that matters wrt pandemic related restrictions.
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