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Tags Coronavirus , diseases

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Old 19th November 2020, 04:19 AM   #3001
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So, finally a full report from Astra Zeneca regarding the stage 2 trials and the ability of the vaccine to generate antibodies and T cells

"Covid: Oxford vaccine shows 'encouraging' immune response in older adults" here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54993652.
And the Lancet report here - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...466-1/fulltext

Wow, only 3 months after the trials...
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Old 19th November 2020, 05:23 AM   #3002
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
So, finally a full report from Astra Zeneca regarding the stage 2 trials and the ability of the vaccine to generate antibodies and T cells

"Covid: Oxford vaccine shows 'encouraging' immune response in older adults" here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54993652.
And the Lancet report here - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...466-1/fulltext

Wow, only 3 months after the trials...

No time for golf.


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Old 19th November 2020, 05:59 AM   #3003
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
So, finally a full report from Astra Zeneca regarding the stage 2 trials and the ability of the vaccine to generate antibodies and T cells

"Covid: Oxford vaccine shows 'encouraging' immune response in older adults" here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54993652.
And the Lancet report here - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...466-1/fulltext

Wow, only 3 months after the trials...
Well, science doesn't stand still. Previously, it took a lot of time to develop one drug, but now, with modern equipment and the ability for scientists to exchange observation results, everything can happen much faster.
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Old 19th November 2020, 06:10 AM   #3004
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Originally Posted by KayBur View Post
Well, science doesn't stand still. Previously, it took a lot of time to develop one drug, but now, with modern equipment and the ability for scientists to exchange observation results, everything can happen much faster.
Sorry, I was being sarcastic. Any other company would be giving out direct information as it's being provided, or at least a preprint version of the paper. Us Brits have to go to the trouble of writing the paper and getting it peer reviewed for inclusion in the Lancet. I just hope they're getting the St 3 data to the Medicine approvals board a bit quicker.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:14 AM   #3005
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Perfect is the enemy of good. In the absence of a vaccine, face masks and social distancing are currently the two best weapons in our arsenal against this pandemic.
Currently the best weapon is truth. Most of the Posters in this thread think the country is using a proper testing/diagnostic procedure, all deaths are being registered correctly, positive cases equate with the number of people testing positive, and that we have a standardized testing procedure... but what they think is incorrect. Truth was thrown out the door when Fauci knowingly spewed lies to the American public (starting with his "We have this pretty well under control, Americans don't have to worry... paraphrase).
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:15 AM   #3006
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Do you know nothing about this disease? One of its most insidious characteristics is that apparently healthy people can be infectious and spreading it for over a week before falling ill. In the midst of a pandemic it's safer to assume a person out in public is infectious unless proven otherwise.

Pretty much everything you've posted so far indicates you simply don't care about your fellow human being; it's all about you and your rights. News flash: human are social animals. We're not lone independent creatures like cougars and crickets; we're much more akin to wolves and ants. We gather together in tribes, villages, and cities. We love socialising at parties and in bars. What you do can affect others around you.

"Your right to swing your arms ends where my nose begins." By extension, your "right" no to wear a mask ends where other people's health and lives are involved. If you're unwilling to acknowledge that, then the big bad government will force you by various measures to do so.
I am not infected... so why would I want to wear a mask?
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:18 AM   #3007
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Selective attention.

You ignored the fact every state has public health laws that allow people to be quarantined as well.
Nothing selective I said exactly that... the States are the only authority to quarantine people. I asked for an example within the past 50 years where it was done. I totally understand State's Rights.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:21 AM   #3008
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
It was xenophobic because restrictions were not placed on other countries even when we knew those locations had high probability of bringing cases. Also allowing U.S. citizens to return, because apparently the virus couldn't cross nationality?

Actually, just one more example of feigned stupidity, I suspect.

This entire "science" thread is hopelessly drowning in political views at this point.

I'm hoping folks will stop indulging the hourly fringe resets at some point.
Most of the Posters refuse to answer simple medical related issues. Do you want me to list those issues that are ignored?
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:29 AM   #3009
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Full stop.

You keep invoking fear as if it were the only valid reason to take Covid-19 seriously. By doing that, you demonstrate that you are either unwilling or unable to deal with the issue with knowledge and intelligence.
I am dealing with Covid-19 perfectly. I am not afraid of it and others are. Your attempt to "shame" me is pointless, your emotional response is only that.. an emotional reaction.



Quote:
You act as if omniscience is commonplace, that infectious people necessarily know that they're infectious, and that infectious people who know that they're infectious will necessarily exercise personal responsibility in relation to that.
Because you and I disagree, you attempt to paint me as the villain. If facts are against you, hammer the Poster. and that is exactly what you are doing.



Quote:
And that attitude is probably most of why things are as bad as they are, at this point. Even if you, personally, didn't make the problem worse, plenty of others who say much the same thing have. Which has then led to large amounts of preventable damage and death and continues to make things worse for everyone.
People are responsible for their actions, I am not a role model.



Quote:
Take that to the US Politics and the Coronavirus thread. I will barely poke at it here, though, by saying that context matters - and the context in this case renders your attempted argument here ridiculous.
This is a response to a comment... you may wish to use the original post as your starting blocks.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:32 AM   #3010
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Yes.

But you see, most people will only get mild symptoms and recover, so they can justify asserting that 'draconian' measures taken to prevent infection cause more harm than good. Or can they?

Covid 19 coronavirus: Why South Australia locked down - New terrifying virus strain revealedThe shorter the incubation period, the more rapidly it can spread and the faster it can mutate. Shorter incubation also means it can mutate to an even more deadly form and still prosper.

We have been lucky so far. But the more this virus spreads and the more people become infected, the more mutations can occur. This virus is adapting faster than our inadequate response.

"First it came for the old, the weak, the comorbiditied, and I did not speak out -

Because I was young and healthy..."
If you continue to "google" for information, please be sure to understand what you are digesting. You need to comprehend how viruses mutate or better yet how this one mutates.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:41 AM   #3011
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
As already noted - you're in a tiny minority. If you don't like rules, go somewhere you don't need to obey them. Brazil's pretty relaxed about it, and Tanzania doesn't acknowledge it all.
I am so glad you showed your stripes.

"tiny minority"... as if being in the majority makes it correct. Majority is mob rule and nothing more, it is not based in science, morality, or common sense.

"go somewhere you don't need to obey them"..." America Love it or Leave it!"this was the mantra of the Right Wing during the 60's. A person cannot protest the conduct of the government, don't say word that is counter to general opinion, get out of my face because I don't agree with your views... you are promoting Authoritarian style of government. But then again, I would expect nothing less from you as you are selective in your responses plus your responses lack credibility.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:49 AM   #3012
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I did not suggest taking the people out of the mix, I clearly ( in my mind ) suggested taking the numbers out of the mix. The point being, if you address the comorbidities by treatment and prevention, you affect the outcome, and the reduce the number of deaths.
The notion that you could cure a patients heart disease as a way to treat them for Covid-19 is absurd. This a is not a viable form of treatment. You cannot omit these people from the numbers because doctors "didn't think to cure their pre-existing conditions like hear disease".

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post

Apparently, I wasn't clear, but accusing me of advocating death panels and involuntary euthanasia, is ingenuous at best.
I never made such an accusation...
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:52 AM   #3013
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Being in a "tiny minority" does not make it wrong. A "tiny minority" of people are atheist. That does not make them wrong.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:07 AM   #3014
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I am not infected... so why would I want to wear a mask?
a) You donít know that
b) You could be lying.
In life there are many cases where we know or believe something ourselves but still need to demonstrate it to those around us. You canít get out of showing your ID when you buy alcohol by saying ďBut Iím over 21 why do I need ID?Ē You canít go into a bank and expect to withdraw money without a back card just by saying ďOf course Iím John Doe, why do I need to prove that in order to withdraw moneyĒ, etc, etc, etc.

Wearing a mask is no different. Just thinking you are not spreading the virus isnít good enough, you need to demonstrate that to everyone you come into contact with. We could just let people enforce it themselves by encouraging people to punch non-mask wearers in the face if they came near you, but having government enforce it is a better option IMO.

Again, this is simply one of the responsibilities of living in a free society. If you donít want to live up to the responsibilities needed for a free society go somewhere no such responsibilities exist, but donít expect either freedom or safety.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:12 AM   #3015
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I am not infected... so why would I want to wear a mask?

In my state, to avoid a fine or arrest.

Alternatively, you could stay away from my state. Either way works for me.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:12 AM   #3016
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post

"go somewhere you don't need to obey them"..." America Love it or Leave it!"this was the mantra of the Right Wing during the 60's.
Bad analogy. Freedom doesnít exist without responsibility. You CANNOT live in a free country where you have no responsibilities. If you are going to demand a place with where you have no responsibilities, everyone else is entitled to tell you that it canít be here because it directly effects their ability to live in a free country.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:17 AM   #3017
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I am not infected... so why would I want to wear a mask?
How do you know that?
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:19 AM   #3018
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
How do you know that?
How do you know you haven't at some time before all this been infected with something that could kill someone? Based on your thinking, we should continue to live this way forever just in case.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:26 AM   #3019
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
How do you know you haven't at some time before all this been infected with something that could kill someone? Based on your thinking, we should continue to live this way forever just in case.
He made a specific claim. Prove it.

And what you refuse to grasp is that covid is a potentially deadly disease that is easily communicable by people who show no symptoms themselves. Thanks largely to vaccines and public health standards, there aren't many of those in general circulation.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:30 AM   #3020
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Where we are today.
Quote:
The United States has surpassed yet another devastating milestone in the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic: 250,000 Americans have now died from the disease. That's more than twice the number of U.S. service members killed in World
War I.

Coronavirus case numbers are exploding across the country at the beginning of what is shaping up to be a difficult winter of illness in America.

"Unfortunately, we are entering what I think will be the worst stretch that we have experienced so far," says Caitlin Rivers, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security. "We're seeing hot spots all across the country and new highs for the number of cases and hospitalizations."
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...nter-is-coming
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Old 19th November 2020, 10:20 AM   #3021
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I am not infected... so why would I want to wear a mask?
No matter how many times you say this, you do not know if you are infected.

Iím happily living in a state of 6 million people where we havenít had a covid infection or a death in over 3 weeks. Yet we know the virus is still out there through sewage testing, and itís almost certain there will be new cases before a vaccine arrives.

And guess what? The Premier of our state is widely popular and protest marches against restrictions attract a few dozen people.

Good times in Victoria. I wouldnít want to be anywhere else.
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Old 19th November 2020, 10:36 AM   #3022
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Reverse transcriptase

"Testing for the presence of coronavirus is an essential diagnostic tool for monitoring and managing the current COVID-19 pandemic. The only reliable test in current use for testing acute infection targets the genome of SARS-CoV-2, and the most widely used method is quantitative fluorescence-based reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction (RT-qPCR). Despite its ubiquity, there is a significant amount of uncertainty about how this test works, potential throughput and reliability. This has resulted in widespread misrepresentation of the problems faced using this test during the current COVID-19 epidemic. This primer provides simple, straightforward and impartial information about RT-qPCR." Abstract

"RT-qPCR Testing of SARS-CoV-2: A Primer" Stephen A. Bustin and Tania Nolan
Int J Mol Sci. 2020 Apr; 21(8): 3004.

Professor Bustin is a world recognized authority on the quantitation of nucleic acids.
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Old 19th November 2020, 10:55 AM   #3023
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
a) You donít know that
Yes I do and for you to assume otherwise is outright ridiculous.

Quote:
b) You could be lying.
I don't lie and to even suggest this as an argument means I would have to prove a negative... AMAZING!

Quote:
In life there are many cases where we know or believe something ourselves but still need to demonstrate it to those around us.
Let's all walk around with a "tag" with our test results. We might as well add your income, this way a person knows you can afford what you are buying. While we are at it... include your credit score.

Quote:
You canít get out of showing your ID when you buy alcohol by saying ďBut Iím over 21 why do I need ID?Ē
This is called a transaction, you are promoting what the Nazis did in the 1930's with the Jewish population in Poland.

Quote:
You canít go into a bank and expect to withdraw money without a back card just by saying ďOf course Iím John Doe, why do I need to prove that in order to withdraw moneyĒ, etc, etc, etc.
Again, this is a transaction not walking down the walkway. Should all people have their proof of citizenship, too?

Quote:
Wearing a mask is no different.
This is a giant leap, there are existing laws preventing this from occurring without Federal legislation... you sound more and more like a Trump supporter with this Right Wing idea.

Quote:
Just thinking you are not spreading the virus isnít good enough, you need to demonstrate that to everyone you come into contact with.
This is becoming more of a joke than a well thought out idea.

Quote:
We could just let people enforce it themselves by encouraging people to punch non-mask wearers in the face if they came near you, but having government enforce it is a better option IMO.
You do realize that the mask does not guarantee that a virus will not fight it's way through the mask. So, your proposal is for those who do wear a mask (which is not fool-proof in preventing the spread of a virus) receive a "get out of jail" card and pass "GO" while collecting $200?

Quote:
Again, this is simply one of the responsibilities of living in a free society.
Nothing free about what you are proposing unless you are living in a dystopian society.

Quote:
If you donít want to live up to the responsibilities needed for a free society go somewhere no such responsibilities exist, but donít expect either freedom or safety.
You are conflating "free" with "mandates". Pick one but you cannot have both.

Ben Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:14 AM   #3024
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
"Testing for the presence of coronavirus is an essential diagnostic tool for monitoring and managing the current COVID-19 pandemic.
This test looks for enzymes associated with the RNA.

Quote:
The only reliable test in current use for testing acute infection targets the genome of SARS-CoV-2,
Not reliable as it does not test for "acute infection" Provide documentation that RT-PCR can distinguish between an infectious RNA and a benign RNA.

Quote:
and the most widely used method is quantitative fluorescence-based reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction (RT-qPCR).
Let's make this perfectly clear that this is NOT RT-PCR.

Quote:
Despite its ubiquity, there is a significant amount of uncertainty about how this test works, potential throughput and reliability. This has resulted in widespread misrepresentation of the problems faced using this test during the current COVID-19 epidemic. This primer provides simple, straightforward and impartial information about RT-qPCR." Abstract

"RT-qPCR Testing of SARS-CoV-2: A Primer" Stephen A. Bustin and Tania Nolan
Int J Mol Sci. 2020 Apr; 21(8): 3004.

Professor Bustin is a world recognized authority on the quantitation of nucleic acids.
Professor Bustin is no Kary Mullis. Kary Mullis warned against using the RT-PCR as a diagnostic tool. The only test that would even come close to being quantified would be real time RT-PCR but the real time RT-PCR received it's EUA for Covid-19 March 5, 2020. Testing had already begun the first week of February. This is a classic case of accommodate a testing procedure in order to match the results. Besides being "after the fact", there is no standardization in the Ct.
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:15 AM   #3025
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
No matter how many times you say this, you do not know if you are infected.

Iím happily living in a state of 6 million people where we havenít had a covid infection or a death in over 3 weeks. Yet we know the virus is still out there through sewage testing, and itís almost certain there will be new cases before a vaccine arrives.

And guess what? The Premier of our state is widely popular and protest marches against restrictions attract a few dozen people.

Good times in Victoria. I wouldnít want to be anywhere else.
Good for you.
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:17 AM   #3026
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Bad analogy. Freedom doesnít exist without responsibility. You CANNOT live in a free country where you have no responsibilities. If you are going to demand a place with where you have no responsibilities, everyone else is entitled to tell you that it canít be here because it directly effects their ability to live in a free country.
... only because you don't like it. I never mentioned a place without responsibilities... those are your words. Great job of building a straw man and then knocking it down.
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:18 AM   #3027
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Being in a "tiny minority" does not make it wrong. A "tiny minority" of people are [albinos] atheist. That does not make them wrong.
ftfy

Atheists might be a minority, but it is not "tiny".
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:20 AM   #3028
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
How do you know that?
My position requires me to be tested multiple times a week.
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:24 AM   #3029
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
My position requires me to be tested multiple times a week.
You only know your status at the time of your latest test, not right now. If there was no chance of you being infected, there would be no need to test you.
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:31 AM   #3030
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Ben Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
You just outed yourself.

All that pseudo-scientific talk of "statistical findings to prove a trend or an effective mitigation technique is nothing but manipulated observations and anecdotal experiences", "you will immediately have corrupted statistics for comparison", and "If days are "skipped" in reporting, your results will not be valid" turns out to be nothing more more than covert attempts to bolster your naive libertarian philosophy.

But I knew that of course - it was obvious from the start. And now you embarrass yourself.

Ben Franklin's Famous 'Liberty, Safety' Quote Lost Its Context In 21st Century
Quote:
SIEGEL: So far from being a pro-privacy quotation, if anything, it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

WITTES: It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means.
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Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 19th November 2020 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:52 AM   #3031
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Testify, NoOther!

For my part, I am not afraid of artillery bombardment. Others may be, but I rise above that sort of herd-like panic. The chances of being directly struck by a shell are vanishing low. Shell fragments do not pose a risk either, obviously, or I would have already been hit by at least one. Clearly and unarguably, I would have. Prove otherwise, if you know so much.

No, I will NOT "hit the dirt," as you vulgarly advise.
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Old 19th November 2020, 12:06 PM   #3032
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
My position requires me to be tested multiple times a week.
If that's true, you are still endangered by people around you who don't wear masks, and the fact that you tested negative yesterday doesn't mean you can't be infected and contagious today, even without symptoms, which is why you are required to be tested "multiple times a week."

Last edited by Bob001; 19th November 2020 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 19th November 2020, 12:26 PM   #3033
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
If that's true, you are still endangered by people around you who don't wear masks, and the fact that you tested negative yesterday doesn't mean you can't be contagious today, which is why you are required to be tested "multiple times a week."
My professional position requires the tests... I have never tested "positive".

Your reasoning is quite scary as it shakes the foundation of a free and open society. No matter how you attempt to spin your words you wish to take our Republic to a tyranny based government. It is quite funny that you say "you tested negative yesterday doesn't mean you can't be contagious today"... what prevents you from substituting "yesterday" for "a few minutes ago"? I make reference to my testing yet a person wearing a mask that leaks would have more freedom of movement than wish on tested individuals. The words you speak are what despot empires echo.
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Old 19th November 2020, 12:31 PM   #3034
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
My professional position requires the tests... I have never tested "positive".

Your reasoning is quite scary as it shakes the foundation of a free and open society. No matter how you attempt to spin your words you wish to take our Republic to a tyranny based government. It is quite funny that you say "you tested negative yesterday doesn't mean you can't be contagious today"... what prevents you from substituting "yesterday" for "a few minutes ago"? I make reference to my testing yet a person wearing a mask that leaks would have more freedom of movement than wish on tested individuals. The words you speak are what despot empires echo.

What? Wearing a mask to slow the transmission of a deadly communicable disease is not quite the same as tanks in the streets and gallows in the town square. I'm sorry you don't see the difference.
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Old 19th November 2020, 12:36 PM   #3035
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
You just outed yourself.

All that pseudo-scientific talk of "statistical findings to prove a trend or an effective mitigation technique is nothing but manipulated observations and anecdotal experiences", "you will immediately have corrupted statistics for comparison", and "If days are "skipped" in reporting, your results will not be valid" turns out to be nothing more more than covert attempts to bolster your naive libertarian philosophy.

But I knew that of course - it was obvious from the start. And now you embarrass yourself.

Ben Franklin's Famous 'Liberty, Safety' Quote Lost Its Context In 21st Century
Yes, the quote and the attributes surrounding the phrase is completely different than what our American lexicon has exhibited over 200+ years. We can spend the next year prefacing all quotes and it's etymology and if that is what you need I will be happy to include that with my next quote.

In the meantime, please answer the question(s) I posed to you... unless you don't have the capacity to do so. I will assume you can't if you remain silent.
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Old 19th November 2020, 12:40 PM   #3036
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What? Wearing a mask to slow the transmission of a deadly communicable disease is not quite the same as tanks in the streets and gallows in the town square. I'm sorry you don't see the difference.
Your ability to remember who said what on what post is about as sound as your attempt at slashing everyone's personal freedom... I did not say what you think I said, it was someone else.
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Old 19th November 2020, 12:47 PM   #3037
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Your ability to remember who said what on what post is about as sound as your attempt at slashing everyone's personal freedom... I did not say what you think I said, it was someone else.

Your actual words:
Quote:
.... No matter how you attempt to spin your words you wish to take our Republic to a tyranny based government.
That's quite a stretch from "Wear a mask."
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Old 19th November 2020, 01:13 PM   #3038
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Your actual words:


That's quite a stretch from "Wear a mask."
Lift your eyes up a couple of posts (at this moment) and you see for yourself, I made zero mention of bombs et al. Are you willing to admit that I never said that?

Last edited by No Other; 19th November 2020 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 19th November 2020, 01:29 PM   #3039
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Getting back to some actual science for a sec, the arthritis drug tocilizumab is looking like a good treatment for the most ill patients:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55002339

Quote:
The drug is no longer being trialled as the researchers are so confident in the data, but the precise effect on survival is still being calculated.
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Old 19th November 2020, 01:30 PM   #3040
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Yes I do and for you to assume otherwise is outright ridiculous.
[/b]
No you donít and saying otherwise means you are ether lying or not smart enough to be trusted with decisions involving other peoples safty.
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I don't lie
Riiight. Apparently we are dealing with the second coming! A person who is entirely free from sin! Do I win $1 million for finding him?
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
to even suggest this as an argument means I would have to prove a negative... AMAZING!
Hence the rule is ďwear a maskĒ. It doesnít depend on whether you are lying, telling the truth or simply mistaken about the potential for infecting others.

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Let's all walk around with a "tag" with our test results.
It doesnít tell you whatís happened since the test and the test may have been a false negative.
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
This is called a transaction, you are promoting what the Nazis did in the 1930's with the Jewish population in Poland.
LOL! Nazis carded people when they bought alcohol? I kind of doubt it, but if so it still doesnít mean it measures up to something like unidentified government agents in military gear with no form of identification shoving people into unmarked vehicles and driving off with them on the speculation that they committed some unnamed crime.
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Again, this is a transaction not walking down the walkway. Should all people have their proof of citizenship, too?
You mean like in Arizona where police can stop you and demand proof you are an American citizen? That would be an actual example of a ďNazi styleĒ law in the US. What you are whining about is more like the public conduct laws enacted by every State in the US and every democratic country in the world. No matter where you are, you are not required to uphold standards of public behavior. The more free a country is the more likely this is limited to things where there is potential harm to others, like mask use.
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
you sound more and more like a Trump supporter with this Right Wing idea.
Trump supporters advocate masks?
Originally Posted by No Other View Post
You do realize that the mask does not guarantee that a virus will not fight it's way through the mask.
Itís a virus. Itís not even alive. It can float there in a water droplet, thatís it.

If someone still gets infected, well perfect isnít the goal. All that needs to be done is keep R below 1 so the mask is still doing itís job.

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Ben Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
As already noted, Franklin was advocating FOR the power of democratically elected legislators to enact laws that the Pen family claimed violated their freedom. The argument Franklin was making FAVOR the ability of elected governments to pass things like mask laws if they are for the common good.
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