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Old 19th November 2020, 01:39 PM   #3041
lomiller
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Yes, the quote and the attributes surrounding the phrase is completely different than what our American lexicon has exhibited over 200+ years. We can spend the next year prefacing all quotes and it's etymology and if that is what you need I will be happy to include that with my next quote.

In the meantime, please answer the question(s) I posed to you... unless you don't have the capacity to do so. I will assume you can't if you remain silent.
It's not a question of "American lexicon". Franklin was advocating for the authority of democratically elected governments to make laws that apply to everyone in order to protect the common good. Mask use during a pandemic is just such a law.
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Old 19th November 2020, 01:47 PM   #3042
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Because no one was doing that before COVID?
Why the snark?

Actually, very little was being done to address the deadly underlying health issues; CVD, T2D, and Obesity that have been going up dramatically for the last 50 years, with most attention going to drugs to alleviate the symptoms and little to address the cause..

But you should know that...
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Old 19th November 2020, 01:49 PM   #3043
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I guess we will have to wear mask and have these restrictions forever, because anyone could be one of the 5% of people who the vaccine does not work for.
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Old 19th November 2020, 01:50 PM   #3044
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Ben Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Regardless of the intent, we are talking about non-essential liberties and a great deal of temporary safety.
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Old 19th November 2020, 01:52 PM   #3045
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I guess we will have to wear mask and have these restrictions forever, because anyone could be one of the 5% of people who the vaccine does not work for.
If enough people are vaccinated, there will be herd immunity even if 5% of the vaccinated are still vulnerable.
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Old 19th November 2020, 01:57 PM   #3046
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I guess we will have to wear mask and have these restrictions forever, because anyone could be one of the 5% of people who the vaccine does not work for.
Actually not " anyone "... There would be specific reasons for the vaccine not to work, and those could be identified.
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Old 19th November 2020, 04:05 PM   #3047
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Yes.

But you see, most people will only get mild symptoms and recover, so they can justify asserting that 'draconian' measures taken to prevent infection cause more harm than good. Or can they?

Covid 19 coronavirus: Why South Australia locked down - New terrifying virus strain revealedThe shorter the incubation period, the more rapidly it can spread and the faster it can mutate. Shorter incubation also means it can mutate to an even more deadly form and still prosper.

We have been lucky so far. But the more this virus spreads and the more people become infected, the more mutations can occur. This virus is adapting faster than our inadequate response.
What we know of this virus at the moment is that it does not mutate quickly. Say, as quickly as the influenza virus.
Most experts have rubbished the SA state authorities claims that this is a super strain.

Genetic data from SA's cases, which could reveal a new mutation, has not yet been released.

In the absence of that data, experts said claims of super strains stretched scientific credibility given they had not been detected anywhere else in the world.

Quote:
"First it came for the old, the weak, the comorbiditied, and I did not speak out -

Because I was young and healthy..."
It is mostly the selfish and stupid that perpetuated the outbreak in SA. Flaunting COVID precautions will always help an outbreak go out of control.
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Old 19th November 2020, 04:19 PM   #3048
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Seriously - is it so hard to just wear the damn mask?
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Old 19th November 2020, 04:26 PM   #3049
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Seriously - is it so hard to just wear the damn mask?
For anyone who cares about others, no.
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Old 19th November 2020, 04:41 PM   #3050
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Seriously - is it so hard to just wear the damn mask?
Seriously, that is not all we are being told to do.
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Old 19th November 2020, 04:43 PM   #3051
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Mike81, do you comply with the laws requiring you to wear pants (or other suitable coverings for your lower body) in public? If so, why are you so tolerant and submissive to this infringement on your liberty? Being naked in public does no objective harm to anyone.

(If not, I no longer care that you don't wear a mask either; it's not like anyone besides law enforcement officers will allow you to be close to them.)
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Old 19th November 2020, 04:55 PM   #3052
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Seriously - is it so hard to just wear the damn mask?
Fans of slippery slope fallacy.

First you have to wear a mask, next thing the Thought Police are taking you to Room 101.

Pathetic.

I vote we all ignore the non-scientific posts and discuss the science once again - that seemed to work well for a long time.

Worth a try.
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Old 19th November 2020, 04:59 PM   #3053
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Why the snark?
Because your premise was bizarre. Just like this post.

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Actually, very little was being done to address the deadly underlying health issues; CVD, T2D, and Obesity that have been going up dramatically for the last 50 years, with most attention going to drugs to alleviate the symptoms and little to address the cause..

But you should know that...
This is laughable.

You need some evidence in medical sources, not sensational op eds.
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Old 19th November 2020, 05:00 PM   #3054
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I guess we will have to wear mask and have these restrictions forever, because anyone could be one of the 5% of people who the vaccine does not work for.
That's not how it works. After most people are vaccinated it stops the spread.
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Old 19th November 2020, 05:15 PM   #3055
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Seriously, that is not all we are being told to do.
It's a good start.
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Old 19th November 2020, 05:29 PM   #3056
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I guess we will have to wear mask and have these restrictions forever, because anyone could be one of the 5% of people who the vaccine does not work for.

That is exactly what herd immunity is all about. If the vaccine uptake is high enough the virus is eliminated from the population as a whole and even the unprotected individuals are protected by the immunity of the herd.

If the virus was allowed to become endemic then yes, we'd all have to take these precautions forever. But a successful vaccination campaign reaching a high enough proportion of the population will sort it.
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Old 19th November 2020, 10:14 PM   #3057
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Ummm, regarding South Australia, it seems the panic was unnecessarily sparked by someone lying to the contact tracing team: https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/austra...-hard-lockdown
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Old 19th November 2020, 10:18 PM   #3058
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And a snippet on the idea that too many deaths are being attributed to Covid, there's pretty good evidence that at least one Indian state has been under-counting by almost 50%.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-54985981
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Old 19th November 2020, 10:37 PM   #3059
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I am dealing with Covid-19 perfectly. I am not afraid of it and others are. Your attempt to "shame" me is pointless, your emotional response is only that.. an emotional reaction.
Thanks for confirming that "unable or unwilling to understand" applies, including to the point being made.

To be clear, I'm not particularly afraid of Covid-19 personally, given that the risk it poses to me is very low. I take it seriously, though, for various reasons other than fear. The continued drumbeat from downplayer after downplayer of "I'm not scared! You shouldn't be scared! We shouldn't live in fear! Thus, accepting temporary restrictions for the public welfare is totally wrong!" is pathetic and annoying. Seriously, if you're going to make arguments, at least try to understand what the heck you're actually dealing with! Fear certainly is a motivator for numerous people, but it's not particularly relevant to the more meaningful issues at hand there.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Because you and I disagree, you attempt to paint me as the villain. If facts are against you, hammer the Poster. and that is exactly what you are doing.
You pushed inanity. I poked at holes in the inanity. You are treated the poking at holes in the inanity as a personal attack that paints you as a villain. Interesting.

You are getting hammered, though, I'll agree with that - for spouting inanity.


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
People are responsible for their actions, I am not a role model.
Nice try to dodge.

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
This is a response to a comment... you may wish to use the original post as your starting blocks.
And if one follows it back, it's a tangent that diverted into political territory because of you.
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Last edited by Aridas; 19th November 2020 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:19 PM   #3060
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I'd been meaning to cover off the subject of the alleged infections in Italy in September 2019, but side-tracked by all the fluff.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Theoretically, it's not all that unusual for a pathogen to sputter and fail to ignite the fire for a while before it breaks out into an epidemic or pandemic.
Yep, I'd go along with that, but I do think this time is different to your examples.

First off, the people whose blood was taken were lung cancer patients, the second most-dangerous thing to be. Not one of them developed the disease? I don't buy it.

Also, the number of lung cancer patients at any time is a tiny fraction of all people, and they can only have caught it off others, so there would have been thousands of cases in northern Italy alone.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And SARS 1 smoldered in Guangdong China for a couple months before it spread outside of the area into Hong Kong.
SARS 1.0 wasn't anywhere near as infectious, and people were only infectious with symptoms.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Or it could be false positive tests.
You'd think so, but it seems an incredibly high number of false positives.

I hope someone is investigating it further.
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Old 20th November 2020, 12:01 AM   #3061
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
....
SARS 1.0 wasn't anywhere near as infectious, and people were only infectious with symptoms. .
The details are still to be sorted. I have no opinion one way or the other whether there were clusters of COVID before the Wuhan beginning.

But I do want to correct some errors about SARS.

SARS was incredibly contagious, maybe more so than COVID. Health care workers were infected even when using isolation procedures. I recall one report that they learned the gowns they were using could spread the virus (Canada experience). Health care workers became infected and spread the infection to their family members.

One contagious person used an elevator in Hong Kong. From there 9 people were infected and it is believed the source was on the elevator with the people who became infected but that isn't certain. Those 9 people spread the virus to 9 different countries.

The one thing that prevented a catastrophe was that there were no silent infections. Everyone became seriously ill making contact tracing possible. But as for spread without symptoms, that probably didn't happen at the beginning of the infection, but after symptoms resolved, people were still shedding virus for another week give or take a few days.

One large apartment building in Hong Kong had a number of people who became infected. They traced it to a leaking sewage pipe within the building. I don't recall the details without looking it up but IIRC the virus became airborne from the leak.

We really dodged a bullet with the SARS outbreak.
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Old 20th November 2020, 12:09 AM   #3062
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This NIH study was quite incredible:

Mini-Lungs in a Lab Dish Mimic Early COVID-19 Infection
Quote:
NIH-funded researchers have applied this remarkable lab tool to produce mini-lungs to study SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19.

The intriguing bubble-like structures (red/clear) in the mini-lung pictured above represent developing alveoli, the tiny air sacs in our lungs, where COVID-19 infections often begin. In this organoid, the air sacs consist of many thousands of cells, all of which arose from a single adult stem cell isolated from tissues found deep within healthy human lungs. When carefully nurtured in lab dishes, those so-called alveolar epithelial type-2 cells (AT2s) begin to multiply. As they grow, they spontaneously assemble into structures that closely resemble alveoli. ...
Stem cells are fascinating.

Quote:
Tata and his collaborators at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, have already confirmed that SARS-CoV-2 infects the mini-lungs via the critical ACE2 receptor, just as the virus is known to do in the lungs of an infected person.

Interestingly, the cells also produce cytokines, inflammatory molecules that have been tied to tissue damage. The findings suggest the cytokine signals may come from the lungs themselves, even before immune cells arrive on the scene.

The heavily infected lung cells eventually self-destruct and die. In an unexpected turn of events, they even induce cell death in some neighboring healthy cells that are not infected. The relevance of the studies to the clinic was boosted by the finding that the gene activity patterns in the mini-lungs are a close match to those found in samples taken from six patients with severe COVID-19.

Now that he’s got the recipe down, Tata is busy making organoids and helping to model COVID-19 infections, with the hope of identifying and testing promising new treatments. It’s clear these mini-lungs are breathing some added life into the basic study of COVID-19.
Is that amazing or what!
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Old 20th November 2020, 05:59 AM   #3063
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You can't possibly think that is evidence of support for your claims.

How about you read a recent infectious disease medical textbook. That would involve less reading.

You should stop reading alt-right web sites. Dr Birx is explaining the issue that was brought up. By no means is she claiming the death count for COVID is seriously over counted.
Indeed

In the UK and many other countries, there were excess deaths that coincided in time with the COVID-19 deaths, rising and falling together. These excess deaths were almost certainly overwhelmingly uncounted COVID-19 deaths.

The US has had significant excess deaths above the COVID-19 deaths as well

Which one can find from the CDC
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Old 20th November 2020, 07:22 AM   #3064
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The UK excess deaths from the BBC's website (updated daily)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg coviduk.jpg (31.4 KB, 9 views)
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Old 20th November 2020, 08:13 AM   #3065
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Why the snark?

Actually, very little was being done to address the deadly underlying health issues; CVD, T2D, and Obesity that have been going up dramatically for the last 50 years, with most attention going to drugs to alleviate the symptoms and little to address the cause..

But you should know that...
You mean like this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let%27s_Move!

Obesity doesn't have the same risk for other peoples health so outright rules against risky behaviour are on more questionable ground. cf the right wing backlash when New York limited the size of high calorie drinks that could be sold. (more action to combat obesity)


You could probabaly justify restrictions on advertising and marketing on junk food or government programs to combat "food deserts" but I suspect the same people complaining about co-morbidity would complain about these types of actions as well.
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Old 20th November 2020, 08:16 AM   #3066
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
If enough people are vaccinated, there will be herd immunity even if 5% of the vaccinated are still vulnerable.
With Covid you probabaly need about 60% of people vaccinated. The challenge for the US will likely be that vaccinations may be needed every year or two and the political right wing will block any efforts to make sure that happens.
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Old 20th November 2020, 08:24 AM   #3067
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
And a snippet on the idea that too many deaths are being attributed to Covid, there's pretty good evidence that at least one Indian state has been under-counting by almost 50%.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-54985981
Yup. The evidence that Covid-19 deaths are being under counted is both real and compelling. The evidence for over-counting is pseudoscience and conspiracy theory.
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Old 20th November 2020, 08:33 AM   #3068
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
With Covid you probabaly need about 60% of people vaccinated. The challenge for the US will likely be that vaccinations may be needed every year or two and the political right wing will block any efforts to make sure that happens.

Sigh. This disease is eradicable. With difficulty, in the absence of vaccination, although possible. Vaccination is a game-changer in that respect. It makes elimination within a country's borders absolutely feasible, no question. Add compulsory travel vaccination to that and there is absolutely no reason why we should still be living with the virus a couple of years from now.

If I still need booster vaccinations beyond about 2022 I am going to be seriously narked. Not because I have the slightest objection to having a booster vaccination, but because that necessity will mean that there has been a catastrophic failure to eliminate the disease.
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Old 20th November 2020, 09:57 AM   #3069
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Sigh. This disease is eradicable.


We've been though this before and clearly I disagree. The high R0, the wide range of animals it can infect, asymptomatic spread and relatively short immunity duration make this one of the least eradicable viruses we've ever encountered IMO.
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Old 20th November 2020, 10:07 AM   #3070
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Sigh. This disease is eradicable.
Some good news on that front - Oxford has done a meta-study which shows immunity lasts for at least six months: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/busi...-says/2736878/
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Old 20th November 2020, 11:34 AM   #3071
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Another account of where we are:
Quote:
“We’ve never had to do anything like this,” Angela Hewlett, the infectious-disease specialist who directs the hospital’s COVID-19 team, told me. “We are on an absolutely catastrophic path.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...helmed/617156/
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Old 20th November 2020, 11:35 AM   #3072
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
We've been though this before and clearly I disagree. The high R0, the wide range of animals it can infect, asymptomatic spread and relatively short immunity duration make this one of the least eradicable viruses we've ever encountered IMO.

It's defeatist attitudes like that that make me sigh, because it's people with these attitudes that will lead to the necessary effort not being made.

There is currently no animal reservoir of this virus, if it's true that the mink situation has been controlled. All the more reason to eradicate, before that changes.
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Old 20th November 2020, 11:54 AM   #3073
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An op-ed in the Washington Post argues that schools do not appear to be centers of covid spread and that there is very little risk in at least opening elementary schools.

Quote:
To plot each bucket along the x-axis, I calculated the population-weighted average of covid cases within each grouping. For example, the average for the lowest bucket is two cases per 100,000 people; for the highest, it is 28 cases per 100,000 people.

I then looked at all schools within the Zip codes that constitute each bucket. For these schools, I calculated the prevalence of covid-19 among three different populations: elementary and middle school students; high school students; and faculty and staff at all schools. The average infection rates among these populations determine those points’ placement on the y-axis.

Once these figures are plotted, we can see that, for high-school students and staff, the rates are similar to population case rates. For elementary and middle school students, they are lower — which we would expect, given the generally lower disease rate in younger children.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...y/?arc404=true
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Old 20th November 2020, 11:57 AM   #3074
Chris_Halkides
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The chemistry of RNA versus DNA

Link. This is why we need the freezers. This article is a good discussion at a moderate level of chemical knowledge. This is related to the transphosphorylation issue I mentioned in a previous comment. Oxygen has lone pairs of electrons which can be cleave the phosphodiester bond of RNA by a nucleophilic attack. DNA has a hydrogen atom in the same position (remember that D stands for deoxy), which has no lone pairs of electrons; therefore, it cannot cleave the phosphodiester bond.

Happy Birthday, Rolfe!
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Old 20th November 2020, 12:02 PM   #3075
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
An op-ed in the Washington Post argues that schools do not appear to be centers of covid spread and that there is very little risk in at least opening elementary schools.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...y/?arc404=true
An Australian study in August begs to differ.

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2020/...ooked-and-risk
Quote:
It is widely thought that children are much less susceptible to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection than adults and do not play a substantial role in transmission. However, emerging research suggests this perception is unfounded. Seroprevalence and contact tracing studies show children are similarly vulnerable and transmit the virus to a meaningful degree.
More recently in Melbourne we had an outbreak spread from a student who went back to school before his quarantine period had expired.
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Last edited by lionking; 20th November 2020 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 20th November 2020, 12:05 PM   #3076
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Nothing selective I said exactly that... the States are the only authority to quarantine people. I asked for an example within the past 50 years where it was done. I totally understand State's Rights.
Like this:

https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/27/healt...rsy/index.html

"New York, New Jersey and Illinois say anyone returning from having direct contact with Ebola patients in West Africa will have to be quarantined for 21 days."
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Old 20th November 2020, 12:25 PM   #3077
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
And if one follows it back, it's a tangent that diverted into political territory because of you.
You could not be further from reality; I very well could be the most apolitical person on this thread.
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Old 20th November 2020, 12:34 PM   #3078
Rolfe
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Happy Birthday, Rolfe!

Thank you Chris! Our area has only light restrictions at the moment and our "neighbourhood" (an area 30 miles long and I don't know how many wide but with just over 6,000 people) has had no cases at all since 8th November. Now they've closed our border with the high-prevalence area next door it felt safe to go out. A couple who are neighbours took me to lunch in a restaurant in a nearby village, which was a huge treat, and we decided to form an extended household for a few weeks so we can visit each other indoors, sing together, and when Margaret and I meet Ruth to practise our trio it will be legal as only two households will be involved.

Several friends and relations phoned, I got quite a lot of cards and several presents, with another neighbour walking round to give me hers in person. So it's been a good day all in all.

/derail
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Old 20th November 2020, 12:37 PM   #3079
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
You could not be further from reality; I very well could be the most apolitical person on this thread.
An attempted defense which, again, doesn't actually address the point made in what you responded to.
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Old 20th November 2020, 01:29 PM   #3080
Skeptical Greg
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
You mean like this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let%27s_Move!

Obesity doesn't have the same risk for other peoples health so outright rules against risky behaviour are on more questionable ground. cf the right wing backlash when New York limited the size of high calorie drinks that could be sold. (more action to combat obesity)


You could probabaly justify restrictions on advertising and marketing on junk food or government programs to combat "food deserts" but I suspect the same people complaining about co-morbidity would complain about these types of actions as well.
Things like Let's Move would be a good idea if it actually included sound nutrition advice.

The other main problem is that by the time kids are in school, they've already been hooked on junk food.

No argument from me except, I'm not in favor of restricting the marketing of junk food except that it should include warning labels like for alcohol and tobacco.

I think the government needs to get out of the nutrition guideline business until they get some better science behind it.

The Medical establishment needs to step up and address the poor nutrition practices and advice that have led to the problems.
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