Continuation The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Aridas

. The constant lying and trying to take credit for things that he doesn't deserve any credit for makes me much more wary of accepting claims that he deserves credit, yes, but doesn't impact my willingness to give credit where credit is due, both good and bad.

Yes, that's what I mean. If I find out that he did something, and I think it's good, I'll give him credit.

But if he just says that he did something good, I won't believe him. If I find out he really did, I'll say that it's pretty cool, but until then I'll just assume he's lying.


So, right now, he's taking credit for the two vaccine announcements, but I assume that he did nothing more than anyone would have done to hurry those vaccines along. Of course he allocated funds, but everyone would have done that. Did he have some special insight, some unique approach, some initiative that he put forward that was opposed by political opponents, that had some success? I won't believe it unless I hear it from some source other than him or one of his toadies.

[Meadmaker]

Speaking of vaccines and government funding, does anyone know what other countries have done to help vaccine development? I know Oxford was working on a vaccine, but they reported side effects, and I don't know where they stand right now. I'm guessing that had some UK and possibly other funding flowing into it?

Have Canadians ponied up some loonies for the cause?

[The Great Zaganza]

TBH, I never quite saw the point in drowning drug companies in money to develop a vaccine: the publicity alone was reason enough for drug companies to struggle to be first to the market, and by jove Big Pharma needs some good PR.
Warp Speed was just another way of transferring taxpayer money to the rich.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

I'll give Trump credit for his successes as soon as he takes responsibility for his mistakes.

Honest praise is wasted on someone who can't accept honest criticism.

Mmm. As far as I'm concerned, it's not about Trump. It's about upholding principles.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Aridas

Mmm. As far as I'm concerned, it's not about Trump. It's about upholding principles.

The principle being that you should praise the clock for being right twice a day?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Yes, that's what I mean. If I find out that he did something, and I think it's good, I'll give him credit.

But if he just says that he did something good, I won't believe him. If I find out he really did, I'll say that it's pretty cool, but until then I'll just assume he's lying. ....

Yes. Name something he actually did, not something he claimed he did.

And wiping out environmental protection laws doesn't count. It needs to be something at least marginally good.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

The principle being that you should praise the clock for being right twice a day?

No. In those terms, though, the principle would be more along the lines of being that you should acknowledge that the clock is right, when it actually is right, preferably while remembering the larger context where it's wrong all the rest of the time. Praise would be something that should only be offered when considering said larger context, regardless.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Aridas

No. In those terms, though, the principle would be more along the lines of being that you should acknowledge that the clock is right, when it actually is right, preferably while remembering the larger context where it's wrong all the rest of the time. Praise would be something that should only be offered when considering said larger context, regardless.

The point of the expression is that the clock being right is accidental.

Can you point to a Trump policy that worked as intended and had mostly positive effects?

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Speaking of vaccines and government funding, does anyone know what other countries have done to help vaccine development? I know Oxford was working on a vaccine, but they reported side effects, and I don't know where they stand right now.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...strazeneca-jab

Quote:

Although the Oxford vaccine uses a different technology from the Moderna jab, the two vaccines both rely on stimulating cells to produce a specific protein, which in turn triggers an immune response – meaning Moderna’s results bode well for Oxford.

A source at the Department of Health and Social Care said the results from the Oxford vaccine trials were “imminent” and that it could be one of the first to be rolled out.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

The point of the expression is that the clock being right is accidental.

I'm well aware. It's not a particularly good rendition of the concept I was pointing at, regardless, but I did try to work with it. To be clear, giving credit where it's actually due, both positive and negative, is pretty much the concept.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Can you point to a Trump policy that worked as intended and had mostly positive effects?

Likely so, much as it would be scrounging at the edges and not be all that meaningful. Of more meaningful note to the concept, I can certainly give him credit for helping to end Republican resistance to disaster relief spending (resistance that was being done to try to force Democrats to make more unrelated concessions) in certain cases where he did so. That doesn't mean that his various other disaster relief hindering shenanigans are forgotten or forgiven.

[sphenisc]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

You seem to be under the same delusion as dudalb that a lot of people in this thread hate the military. I haven't see any evidence of this and dudalb hasn't presented any. Would you like to present any evidence of this?

Would you?

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by sphenisc

Would you?

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by sphenisc

Would you?

Originally Posted by Aridas

Nah, my reaction is more along the lines of

[AnonyMoose]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Speaking of vaccines and government funding, does anyone know what other countries have done to help vaccine development? I know Oxford was working on a vaccine, but they reported side effects, and I don't know where they stand right now. I'm guessing that had some UK and possibly other funding flowing into it?

Have Canadians ponied up some loonies for the cause?

Canada has committed to over $2 billion towards a vaccine. Half of that goes to R&D here in Canada, the other half is allocated to 6 international companies (that list of companies is in the link).


Let's compare, shall we?

Canada (population 38 million, GDP 1.7 trillion) - $2 billion invested thus far
USA (population 330 million, GDP 20.5 trillion) - $5 billion invested thus far
UK (population 37 million, GDP 2.9 trillion) - $10 billion invested thus far


So my question to you is: Any particular reason why you felt the need to ask this question? Or did you just get hit with an unexpected sudden urge to publicly tug on your bloated American phallic protrusion with the recent Moderna developments?

Your Trump-induced "winning" mentality is sticking out... you might want to tuck that poor little thing back in before people start pointing at it and laughing.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by AnonyMoose

Or did you just get hit with an unexpected sudden urge to publicly tug on your bloated American phallic protrusion with the recent Moderna developments?

Your Trump-induced "winning" mentality is sticking out... you might want to tuck that poor little thing back in before people start pointing at it and laughing.

I formally request that you stop with this foolishness.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by AnonyMoose

Canada has committed to over $2 billion towards a vaccine. Half of that goes to R&D here in Canada, the other half is allocated to 6 international companies (that list of companies is in the link).


Let's compare, shall we?

Canada (population 38 million, GDP 1.7 trillion) - $2 billion invested thus far
USA (population 330 million, GDP 20.5 trillion) - $5 billion invested thus far
UK (population 37 million, GDP 2.9 trillion) - $10 billion invested thus far


So my question to you is: Any particular reason why you felt the need to ask this question? Or did you just get hit with an unexpected sudden urge to publicly tug on your bloated American phallic protrusion with the recent Moderna developments?

Your Trump-induced "winning" mentality is sticking out... you might want to tuck that poor little thing back in before people start pointing at it and laughing.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...62fdf206a5.gif

I love your post.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

One of the things about Trump is that even if he deserves credit, people like me, and I suspect most of us, wouldn't give him credit, because he claims it so often. I know he has claimed credit for so many things in the past that when I hear him say that something good has happened as a result of his efforts, I assume he's lying.

FTFY

[dann]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Speaking of vaccines and government funding, does anyone know what other countries have done to help vaccine development?

Denmark has two Covid-19 vaccines in development:

SSI-vaccine virker i kanintest mod minkvarianten cluster 5 (Jyllands-Posten, Nov. 12, 2020)
Endnu en dansk vaccine klar i kapløbet: 'Vi tror, at vi har en af de bedste i verden' (DR.dk, Nov. 16, 2020)

But they won't be ready in time to compete with Pfizer or Moderna.

[newyorkguy]

New cases are surging -- we're at or close to one million new cases per week -- and even reluctant Republican governors are beginning to take measures to combat it. One problem is the lack of leadership from the trump administration, the lack of a coordinated national response, as trump has seemed to have largely lost interest in the pandemic. From today's New York Times:

Quote:

Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the government’s top infectious disease expert, said on Tuesday that the nation needed “a uniform approach,” instead of a “disjointed” state-by-state, city-by-city response....Several Republican governors are finally, if reluctantly, wielding the power of their authority as President Trump largely cedes the pandemic response on his way out of office. Gov. Kim Reynolds of Iowa, with hospitals filled to the brink and under pressure from doctors, hospitals, mayors and farmers alike, abruptly reversed herself this week and began requiring masks indoors.

In North Dakota, Gov. Doug Burgum had been preaching personal responsibility for months, but last week issued a mask order “until further notice” as the state leads the nation in rates of new cases and deaths per 100,000 people, according to a New York Times database. In Utah, Gov. Gary Herbert also mandated masks, and Gov. Mark Gordon of Wyoming, visibly angry at a news conference last week, warned that he, too, may have to resort to requiring masks because people in his state were being “knuckleheads” about the virus. New York Times link

Below is a chart from the Times showing how orders making masks mandatory have spread across the United States. One notable exception is South Dakota. Nothing has changed with their governor whose press spokesperson still insists masks are not effective. As reported in the local press:

Quote:

The office of Gov. Kristi Noem said in a statement to the Argus Leader Friday that the first-term governor, who's risen to stardom in the Republican party for her hands-off approach to managing the pandemic, has no intention of using state resources to enforce any federal COVID-19 orders. "[That she] trusted citizens to make the best decisions for themselves and their loved-ones." Link to Argus SD Leader

[Modified]

Originally Posted by AnonyMoose

Or did you just get hit with an unexpected sudden urge to publicly tug on your bloated American phallic protrusion with the recent Moderna developments?

What has this got to do with Florida?

[Beelzebuddy]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

Below is a chart from the Times showing how orders making masks mandatory have spread across the United States. One notable exception is South Dakota. Nothing has changed with their governor whose press spokesperson still insists masks are not effective. As reported in the local press:

I'm calling that the Derp Belt.

[Captain_Swoop]

McEnany on Fox dismisses public health guidelines to slow the spread of coronavirus as "Orwellian"

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

McEnany on Fox dismisses public health guidelines to slow the spread of coronavirus as "Orwellian"

she's not McEnany sense ...

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

I'm calling that the Derp Belt.

I'll have you know I live right about where the buckle of that belt goes!

Your assessment isn't wrong enough for me to muster any further rebuke than that.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

McEnany on Fox dismisses public health guidelines to slow the spread of coronavirus as "Orwellian"

I had to unlike Orwell or 1984 on FB recently because of all the reactionaries flocking to compare sensible health measures with omnipresent state thought control.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Speaking of vaccines and government funding, does anyone know what other countries have done to help vaccine development? I know Oxford was working on a vaccine, but they reported side effects, and I don't know where they stand right now. I'm guessing that had some UK and possibly other funding flowing into it?

Have Canadians ponied up some loonies for the cause?

What you consider funding? Basic research that was ultimately funded by governments around the world underpin most vaccine work. There is also a lot of Covid-19 specific work performed at government funded virology labs around the whorls that pays an essential role in developing a vaccine for this virus.

If you put these companies in a bubble and only allowed them access to research they had performed themselves they would not be able to develop a vaccine.

[Bob001]

Food for thought:

Quote:

More than 3 million people in the United States have active coronavirus infections and are potentially contagious, according to a new estimate from infectious-disease experts tracking the pandemic. That number is significantly larger than the official case count, which is based solely on those who have tested positive for the virus.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...5c0_story.html

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by lomiller

What you consider funding? Basic research that was ultimately funded by governments around the world underpin most vaccine work. There is also a lot of Covid-19 specific work performed at government funded virology labs around the whorls that pays an essential role in developing a vaccine for this virus.

If you put these companies in a bubble and only allowed them access to research they had performed themselves they would not be able to develop a vaccine.

What I was getting at is that Trump is saying that our government's actions, i.e. his administration's actions, were instrumental in the development of the vaccine. I would expect that any President of the United States in this situation would have started shoveling money toward anyone who might be able to come up with one. I would expect any President to step up efforts. They probably would not have called it "Operation Warp Speed", but I would guess that they would have done as much or more than Trump did.

And I would assume the same is true for other nations. I just don't know how Canada or Ireland or Luxembourg would go about doing that, and I wondered if anyone could speak to what might be happening in places that aren't the United States.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

What I was getting at is that Trump is saying that our government's actions, i.e. his administration's actions, were instrumental in the development of the vaccine. I would expect that any President of the United States in this situation would have started shoveling money toward anyone who might be able to come up with one. I would expect any President to step up efforts. They probably would not have called it "Operation Warp Speed", but I would guess that they would have done as much or more than Trump did.



And I would assume the same is true for other nations. I just don't know how Canada or Ireland or Luxembourg would go about doing that, and I wondered if anyone could speak to what might be happening in places that aren't the United States.

A lot of Kerfuffle over that yesterday.

With German investments in BioNTech compared to Pfizer insisting no support came to them, it seems clear.

Pfizer's role being being a licensed distributor and facilitating trials even further hobbles any attempt to make America/American companies/Trump into the significant influence or difference maker in all this.

[The Great Zaganza]

The Covid misinformation campaign is the new "Iraq has WMDs": an effort by the Administration to lie about known facts and fake reports for purely political gain that costs hundreds of thousands of lives.
A bureaucracy unable to do what's right because of pressure from the White House. A willing media eager to repeat their lies.

If Trump and his enablers aren't held responsible, just like Bush&co. were not, this will happen again,
and again,

and again.

[Resume]

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
11,873,727
Deaths:
256,254

New Cases:
173,632
New Deaths
1,956

[alfaniner]

Important to note in this particular thread.

Giant milestone -- over 250,000 Americans dead as of today (give or take a day). Not just due to the virus. Many of those deaths are due to the politics surrounding the crisis. Not the Election, but the lack of quick and effective action on the part of the current Administration.

[Babbylonian]

Originally Posted by alfaniner

Important to note in this particular thread.

Giant milestone -- over 250,000 Americans dead as of today (give or take a day). Not just due to the virus. Many of those deaths are due to the politics surrounding the crisis. Not the Election, but the lack of quick and effective action on the part of the current Administration.

Incomplete. Had Trump done and said nothing, we'd be in better shape. Instead, he politicized every attempt by scientists to at least attenuate the problem. He couldn't even mentally handle a ******* week of shutdown without talking garbage about how important it was to open back up.

In other words, he actively advocated the spread of the virus. I truly believe he's a murderer.

[The Atheist]

Tyson Foods:

Quote:

The lawsuit reportedly accuses plant manager Tom Hart of organizing a cash buy-in, winner-takes-all betting pool for supervisors and managers in mid-April to guess how many plant employees would test positive after being forced to report for work.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tyson...b664958c7d9414

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by dann

[i]...

But they won't be ready in time to compete with Pfizer or Moderna.

Pretty sure there is room for all comers.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

McEnany on Fox dismisses public health guidelines to slow the spread of coronavirus as "Orwellian"

Trump is right up there telling people to enjoy their big Thanksgiving diner together, ignore that pandemic.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I had to unlike Orwell or 1984 on FB recently because of all the reactionaries flocking to compare sensible health measures with omnipresent state thought control.

I think it started with 9/11 conspiracists, who used to like parroting "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" as an Orwell quote, which it isn't.

That's now been embraced by Trumpettes - I'm seeing Orwell referenced all the time, and I'd be prepared to bet none of them have ever read him, because he'd be out there beating those people with a stick if he were alive.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Speaking of vaccines and government funding, does anyone know what other countries have done to help vaccine development? I know Oxford was working on a vaccine, but they reported side effects, and I don't know where they stand right now. I'm guessing that had some UK and possibly other funding flowing into it?

Have Canadians ponied up some loonies for the cause?

No they didn’t.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Darat

No they didn’t.

I suspect that he's remembering the reporting on how the trial was temporarily stopped for a bit because someone got sick and they needed to ascertain whether it was related to what they were testing or not.

It's true that that's not the same thing as necessarily having side effects, though.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Aridas

I suspect that he's remembering the reporting on how the trial was temporarily stopped for a bit because someone got sick and they needed to ascertain whether it was related to what they were testing or not.

It's true that that's not the same thing as necessarily having side effects, though.

Probably, it’s a rather large difference and a very dangerous one.