[Continuation] 2020 Presidential Election part 3 - Page 14

Emily's Cat · 10th November 2020, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

I won't disagree. I'm pretty ambivalent about it.

I don't have strong feelings about it one way or another. They're short posts, easy to skip over with no impact. And they're usually on-topic. I'd prefer a bit of commentary or a link with them, but at the end of the day, they're just not a big deal.

It's up there with tapatalk sigs. Mildly annoying sometimes, but easy to move past. I don't understand why anyone would get actually peeved about them.

acbytesla · 10th November 2020, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by turingtest

This right here. It's a little disingenuous to say "oh, Trump's lost, he'll be gone in a couple of months, so what difference does it make?" It's the way he's losing, and the way the GOP largely is enabling that, that makes a difference. Trump isn't, AFAICT, doing anything he doesn't have a strict right to do. But Republicans over the last few years have made an absolute fetish of doing things they have a technical right to do without any consideration for whether those things are the right thing to do. Blocking Obama's SC pick in '16, ramming through their own this year (even when they had to directly contradict their stance from four years earlier to do so), and now demanding recounts that won't realistically make any difference and "investigations" that are really nothing more than specious and unfounded placeholders for riling their base and (probably) making money off the rubes...all these things make a compete hash of our democracy. How is any citizen ever going to be able to have confidence in the integrity of the process- which the GOP claims is their primary reason for wanting the recounts/investigations- when any future loser of an election has only to cite this one as precedent for throwing shade on that process for his case?

This way. 4,640,688

Garrison · 10th November 2020, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by turingtest

This right here. It's a little disingenuous to say "oh, Trump's lost, he'll be gone in a couple of months, so what difference does it make?" It's the way he's losing, and the way the GOP largely is enabling that, that makes a difference. Trump isn't, AFAICT, doing anything he doesn't have a strict right to do. But Republicans over the last few years have made an absolute fetish of doing things they have a technical right to do without any consideration for whether those things are the right thing to do. Blocking Obama's SC pick in '16, ramming through their own this year (even when they had to directly contradict their stance from four years earlier to do so), and now demanding recounts that won't realistically make any difference and "investigations" that are really nothing more than specious and unfounded placeholders for riling their base and (probably) making money off the rubes...all these things make a compete hash of our democracy. How is any citizen ever going to be able to have confidence in the integrity of the process- which the GOP claims is their primary reason for wanting the recounts/investigations- when any future loser of an election has only to cite this one as precedent for throwing shade on that process for his case?

And this is the problem with calling for the Democratic party to play the Republicans at their own game, there is no game any more. The Republicans will cheerfully burn down the entire system for the least bit of short term advantage. If the Democrats copy their playbook that's pretty much 'the end' for the institutions of Democracy in the USA.

dirtywick · 10th November 2020, 10:58 AM

Its a mistake to be too charitable to a guy who has a lifetime history of malicious cheating in virtually every other facet of his life.

Roger Ramjets · 10th November 2020, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

For example - you say he's actively trying to *steal* the election. You've already made your decision that he has lost the election (which I agree with) and that he is aware of and believes that he lost the election (which I disagree with to a degree) and furthermore that he is actively and with malice intentionally trying to cheat (which I disagree with). There's a lot of assumed motivations and mind-reading in there.

It's not mind-reading. Trump stated outright that he would not accept any outcome where he was not the winner. He is claiming election fraud with no evidence, and trying to get the courts to interfere in the vote counting. This is a straight up attempt to steal the election.

And we shouldn't be surprised, because he has used similar tactics in his private business dealings. He is an inveterate liar and fraudster who has (mostly) gotten away with it so far. IOW, he has form. We don't need to read his mind to know what he is doing.

Segnosaur · 10th November 2020, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Some very few idiots might want him to become dictator... but most conservatives (and Republicans even) are actually pretty big on personal liberty and the preservation of the constitution.

Uh, no they aren't.

They may claim they like their freedoms when it comes to gun rights, taxes, etc. But those freedoms never seem to extend to things like free speech (in particular pr0n), abortion rights, drug laws, etc.

I'm not saying that Liberals/progressives don't also have their own set of acceptable freedoms/restrictions, but its wrong to think that Conservatives are actually big on liberty.

And of course, for many, power trumps a desire for freedom.

Quote:

There's nowhere near enough people that want Trump to be dictator for it to have a chance in hell of occurring.

The risk isn't that they would come outright and say "we want a Trump dictatorship"... its that they would engage in their regular dirty tricks (voter suppression, gerrymandering, conspiring with foreign governments), in an attempt to maintain Republican power, and since Trump is at the top he would benefit.

Quote:

And that's all assuming that Trump actually genuinely wants to be a dictator.

He has certainly shown an authoritarian streak... an unwillingness to compromise, use dirty tricks (e.g. foreign influence) to rig an election, etc. Does that mean 'dictatorship'? Well, its uncomfortably close for some.

Quote:

I am so completely tired of all of this. Not you specifically, just the entire topic. It's been four years of non-stop fearmongering about the horrible evil things that Trump is certain to do. And whenever one of them doesn't happen, a new terror is simply inserted and the manufactured outrage continues unabated.

He has: called neo-nazis "fine people", had children locked in cages, wasted billions to build a useless wall (taking money from the military to do so), allowed disease to spread unchecked in the U.S., driven up the deficit in order to give tax breaks to millionaires, and set back the U.S. in handling the environment.

I think people have a reason to be outraged.

In the 2016 election, we thought Trump would be a disaster economically. Well, the deficit increased under him, and job growth slowed.

We thought Trump would be a disaster for the environment, and he has rolled back environmental regulations.

We thought he would enable racism, and sure enough, kids are locked in cages.

We knew the wall would be a big boondoggle, and it is.

About the biggest fear that people had that wasn't realized is that Trump might start a war (which he hasn't... yet)... But his incompetence almost started a conflict with Iran, and it destabilized parts of Syria/Iraq.

Quote:

Trump lost the election. Who the **** gives a crap what he says or what he wants anymore? Just sit back and be happy that Biden won, and let it go.

Because Trump is still president until the new year, and can do substantial damage until Biden takes office.

Because Trump has to work with the incoming administration during the transition, and if he is acting like a toddler, that's not going to work well.

JoeMorgue · 10th November 2020, 11:07 AM

Oh yes the "Let's stop the discussion and list all the things Trump has done because I'm going to pretend I've forgotten them and make you repeat them all just to waste your time" stage of the discussion.

Wait water is wet? When was this established? I demand the discussion stop and everyone prove to me yet again that water is wet so I can forget it again in 10 minutes.

Captain_Swoop · 10th November 2020, 11:10 AM

Trump lost Pennsylvania by more than 45,000 votes, but this tweet is a good reminder that he'd totally do a coup to stay in power if he could
Quote Tweet

@Donald J. Trump
Pennsylvania Party Leadership votes are this week. I hope they pick very tough and smart fighters. We will WIN!!

acbytesla · 10th November 2020, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Oh yes the "Let's stop the discussion and list all the things Trump has done because I'm going to pretend I've forgotten them and make you repeat them all just to waste your time" stage of the discussion.

Wait water is wet? When was this established? I demand the discussion stop and everyone prove to me yet again that water is wet so I can forget it again in 10 minutes.

When someone tells you who they are, believe them.

Emily's Cat · 10th November 2020, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I wish it was that easy. I know my history too well. Coups have been started on less. The Republicans are unwilling to say that he lost. 70 million Americans voted for Trump. And I still see idiots parading around with guns and Trump signs. Trump appointees are preventing the transfer of power. Trump fired the SECDEF and replaced him with a toadie. The AG has ordered investigations (well sort of) into the election. SCOTUS at this very moment is hearing Trump's appeal. That they are even considering it and not rejecting it out of hand is a bit troubling.

This will all crumble in the next couple of days or it's going to get ugly.

I personally think it's most likely to crumble...but I still worry.

Stop worrying. It'll lead you to an early grave.

Coups have been started with less... in situations where the military was under direct control of the person in charge and supported that person's coup. Despite a lot of the Hollywood-driven narrative around military personnel, that's not going to happen in the US. The president is titularly Commander in Chief, but the oaths of the military are to the Office of the President (not the individual) and first and foremost to uphold the Constitution. And the vast, overwhelming majority of active duty military, especially high ranking officers, take that oath very, very seriously.

Republicans are unwilling to say he lost. Well, duh. Of course they are. A lot Democrats spent most of 2017 spinning that Trump wasn't "their" president, or that he wasn't a "legitimate" president, and pretty much trying to have him removed from office from before he even officially took office. That's the price of a FPTP system that has devolved into two-party loggerheads. That divide has been widening through my entire lifetime. It's in the interests of the party to exhaust every possible avenue of challenge before conceding defeat. In most elections, it hasn't been quite so close. I mean, the popular vote isn't close, and the EC count as it stands isn't close... but the votes within several states are really close. Several of the states that Biden took at the end were within 1% difference. I think it's unlikely, but I can see the game theory behind challenging them - it's hypothetically possible that one or more of them could flip on recount or on challenged ballots. Like I said, I don't think it's likely, but I would fully expect a Democrat in the same situation to challenge wherever possible.

70 million people voted for Trump. Yup. But it's not like all 70M of them actually *like* him. Many don't. Many are old-school Republican, and even if the current Republicans don't represent those old-schoolers, they do a better job of it than Democrats do. There are some fundamental divides in the US, that aren't being well addressed by our government. I don't expect that divide to lessen until someone in power actually starts doing their job for ALL of the people of the US, irrespective of the parties involved.

acbytesla · 10th November 2020, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump lost Pennsylvania by more than 45,000 votes, but this tweet is a good reminder that he'd totally do a coup to stay in power if he could
Quote Tweet

@Donald J. Trump
Pennsylvania Party Leadership votes are this week. I hope they pick very tough and smart fighters. We will WIN!!

He also lost the national election by 100 times that.

Emily's Cat · 10th November 2020, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

I worry that Republicans will keep this up until after the Georgia Run-off, because what they need to win is Trump's support.

I don't know what you mean. Can you elaborate?

Emily's Cat · 10th November 2020, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I'm 90 percent sure PA has had absentee mail in ballots for a long time. The only difference in this election, the state mailed ballots to all registered voters and not just citizens that requested them.

That's what I was trying to get at. It's a change in the overall dynamic for PA, which could very reasonably lead to a difference in voting patterns. For states where mail-in are the default(ish), I wouldn't expect to see a difference in voting pattern.

phiwum · 10th November 2020, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

This could be a whole 'nother thread.

First off, there's a lot of interpretation and spin involved in some of this. I understand that this is your perspective, and that's fine. But there's still opinion involved.

For example - you say he's actively trying to *steal* the election. You've already made your decision that he has lost the election (which I agree with) and that he is aware of and believes that he lost the election (which I disagree with to a degree) and furthermore that he is actively and with malice intentionally trying to cheat (which I disagree with). There's a lot of assumed motivations and mind-reading in there.

On the other side of things, however, Trump supporters might genuinely believe that there are ballot shenanigans going on, and that Biden cheated. I don't believe that, but my lack of belief doesn't invalidate their belief. And I'm inclined to think that Trump 1) genuinely believes that there has been voter fraud or manipulation in this election, in part because 2) he desperately needs to believe that he didn't lose.

This presents a situation where Trump can hold irrational beliefs, act in ways that are not in the interest of the US... but still not be doing it via malice.

Pretty much all of the other things you listed fall into very similar patterns. Everyone might agree on the observable objective facts (ok, well 99% of people, because some are insane)... but that doesn't mean that everyone will filter them through the same belief structure, or that everyone will assume the same motivations for those facts.

That's the thing that has bothered me most over the past four years - the sheer volume of unabashed mind-reading going on among self-styled skeptics. People assume they know the motivation and the state of Trump's mind, and then somehow become incapable of acknowledging that they're making assumptions and speculations, as well as becoming unable to consider any other possible motivation at all.

One point that is clear: any time an argument depends on a premise regarding Trump's beliefs, we're on shaky ground. We all agree that Trump lies, I reckon, but it also seems that he is capable of believing whatever is beneficial at the moment.

For all I know, he looked at the crowd at his inauguration and decided it was massive, undoubtedly the most massive ever seen. On the other hand, when he or an aide took a sharpie to the NOAA map, there's no reasonable description other than intentional deception.

Skeptic Ginger · 10th November 2020, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

No, I was paraphrasing, and that was my editorial comment. He did use the word "sloppy" though.

Thank goodness. Not that Biden needs Georgia but the precedent would be bad.

Emily's Cat · 10th November 2020, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

It's not mind-reading. Trump stated outright that he would not accept any outcome where he was not the winner. He is claiming election fraud with no evidence, and trying to get the courts to interfere in the vote counting. This is a straight up attempt to steal the election.

And we shouldn't be surprised, because he has used similar tactics in his private business dealings. He is an inveterate liar and fraudster who has (mostly) gotten away with it so far. IOW, he has form. We don't need to read his mind to know what he is doing.

Do you have a source for the highlighted? Prefereably one with context? My recollection (which could very well be faulty) is that he said he wouldn't accept it without making sure it was legitimate.

uke2se · 10th November 2020, 11:18 AM

I don't know guys, maybe we have just been overreacting over these four last years? I mean, it's not like he actually did any of the bad things we thought he might?

Only he did. As well as plenty of bad things we never even imagined he would. I don't understand how Emily's Cat can claim with a straight face to be tired of overreactions. In fact, I don't believe Emily's Cat is doing it with a straight face.

slyjoe · 10th November 2020, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

That's what I was trying to get at. It's a change in the overall dynamic for PA, which could very reasonably lead to a difference in voting patterns. For states where mail-in are the default(ish), I wouldn't expect to see a difference in voting pattern.

AZ has had mail-in voting for 26 (I think) years. It flipped this time around.

Emily's Cat · 10th November 2020, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by phiwum

One point that is clear: any time an argument depends on a premise regarding Trump's beliefs, we're on shaky ground. We all agree that Trump lies, I reckon, but it also seems that he is capable of believing whatever is beneficial at the moment.

For all I know, he looked at the crowd at his inauguration and decided it was massive, undoubtedly the most massive ever seen. On the other hand, when he or an aide took a sharpie to the NOAA map, there's no reasonable description other than intentional deception.

That's much more concise than what I said.

Captain_Swoop · 10th November 2020, 11:22 AM

“There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration.”

Pompeo today.

acbytesla · 10th November 2020, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Stop worrying. It'll lead you to an early grave.

Coups have been started with less... in situations where the military was under direct control of the person in charge and supported that person's coup. Despite a lot of the Hollywood-driven narrative around military personnel, that's not going to happen in the US. The president is titularly Commander in Chief, but the oaths of the military are to the Office of the President (not the individual) and first and foremost to uphold the Constitution. And the vast, overwhelming majority of active duty military, especially high ranking officers, take that oath very, very seriously.

Republicans are unwilling to say he lost. Well, duh. Of course they are. A lot Democrats spent most of 2017 spinning that Trump wasn't "their" president, or that he wasn't a "legitimate" president, and pretty much trying to have him removed from office from before he even officially took office. That's the price of a FPTP system that has devolved into two-party loggerheads. That divide has been widening through my entire lifetime. It's in the interests of the party to exhaust every possible avenue of challenge before conceding defeat. In most elections, it hasn't been quite so close. I mean, the popular vote isn't close, and the EC count as it stands isn't close... but the votes within several states are really close. Several of the states that Biden took at the end were within 1% difference. I think it's unlikely, but I can see the game theory behind challenging them - it's hypothetically possible that one or more of them could flip on recount or on challenged ballots. Like I said, I don't think it's likely, but I would fully expect a Democrat in the same situation to challenge wherever possible.

70 million people voted for Trump. Yup. But it's not like all 70M of them actually *like* him. Many don't. Many are old-school Republican, and even if the current Republicans don't represent those old-schoolers, they do a better job of it than Democrats do. There are some fundamental divides in the US, that aren't being well addressed by our government. I don't expect that divide to lessen until someone in power actually starts doing their job for ALL of the people of the US, irrespective of the parties involved.

I don't disagree with any of that. But the Executive branch of the government controls most of the levers of government. And Trump and his cabal have their hands on those levers including SCOTUS, the Senate, the intelligence Agencies, the military etc. Most of the police in the US are authoritarians who supported Trump. I could go on.

Until I see real cracks in that alliance I remain concerned. Right now I need to hear that SCOTUS rejects the appeal. I'll breathe a lot easier hearing that.

Skeptic Ginger · 10th November 2020, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

My take is that when he saw his large early leads of 300,000 plus, he had a massive surge of adrenaline and really thought it would stay that way.

His STOP THE COUNT! was a major panic attack of the Help! I'm drowning! Someone save me! Where are my minions and lackies?! Bring me a cavalcade so I can go out and meet the crowds of my supporters!!! Do it now!!!

He just can't believe people have voted for Sleepy Joe and Socialist Harris. It is just not possible.

Think of this as the grieving process stages:

Denial ... Anger ... Bargaining ... Depression ... Acceptance.

He's in denial: he couldn't have lost; the SCOTUS will make him king. He has anger mixing in. Bargaining might consist of 'if other people had done better'. Usually it's the grieving person who obsesses about 'if only I had'.

I suspect then he'll never move past depression into acceptance. Or maybe moving out of the WH will be a modified version of acceptance.

acbytesla · 10th November 2020, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

That's what I was trying to get at. It's a change in the overall dynamic for PA, which could very reasonably lead to a difference in voting patterns. For states where mail-in are the default(ish), I wouldn't expect to see a difference in voting pattern.

OK. So?

uke2se · 10th November 2020, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I don't disagree with any of that. But the Executive branch of the government controls most of the levers of government. And Trump and his cabal have their hands on those levers including SCOTUS, the Senate, the intelligence Agencies, the military etc. Most of the police in the US are authoritarians who supported Trump. I could go on.

Until I see real cracks in that alliance I remain concerned. Right now I need to hear that SCOTUS rejects the appeal. Ill breathe a lot easier hearing that.

Don't worry. If SCOTUS intervenes and declares that votes cast for Biden aren't to be counted, Emily's Cat will tell us that it's nothing to worry about, because it's the law of the land after all.

Stacyhs · 10th November 2020, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by phiwum

One point that is clear: any time an argument depends on a premise regarding Trump's beliefs, we're on shaky ground. We all agree that Trump lies, I reckon, but it also seems that he is capable of believing whatever is beneficial at the moment.

For all I know, he looked at the crowd at his inauguration and decided it was massive, undoubtedly the most massive ever seen. On the other hand, when he or an aide took a sharpie to the NOAA map, there's no reasonable description other than intentional deception.

Mary Trump said that, with the enabling of the GOP, he will have convinced himself he really has won the election and was cheated by election fraud.
The mail-in ballot voter fraud bit may have started out as a tactic he knew wasn't true but it has become Trump's reality.

Emily's Cat · 10th November 2020, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

AZ has had mail-in voting for 26 (I think) years. It flipped this time around.

Sorry, I'm not being very clear

This is all on me.

I'm trying (and failing) to say that in states where mail-in voting has been uncommon, it is reasonable to think that there would be a notable difference in party favorite between mail-in votes and in-person votes (like we saw in PA). But that in states where mail-in has been common and is well established, we wouldn't expect to see as big a difference. I wasn't saying that the overall outcome would be the same in terms of Red/Blue as in the past.

Skeptic Ginger · 10th November 2020, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Firestone

If you live in Minnesota, and haven't voted yet, please do NOW!

Eric Trump tweeted some 20 minutes ago:

Minnesota get out and vote!!!

Attachment 43542

Suppose he'll follow that with something to the effect that late voters are cheating Daddy?

acbytesla · 10th November 2020, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Sorry, I'm not being very clear

This is all on me.

I'm trying (and failing) to say that in states where mail-in voting has been uncommon, it is reasonable to think that there would be a notable difference in party favorite between mail-in votes and in-person votes (like we saw in PA). But that in states where mail-in has been common and is well established, we wouldn't expect to see as big a difference. I wasn't saying that the overall outcome would be the same in terms of Red/Blue as in the past.

So?

Emily's Cat · 10th November 2020, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I don't disagree with any of that. But the Executive branch of the government controls most of the levers of government. And Trump and his cabal have their hands on those levers including SCOTUS, the Senate, the intelligence Agencies, the military etc. Most of the police in the US are authoritarians who supported Trump. I could go on.

Until I see real cracks in that alliance I remain concerned. Right now I need to hear that SCOTUS rejects the appeal. I'll breathe a lot easier hearing that.

I give SCOTUS more credit than you, it seems. Trump is not well liked in the intelligence agencies, nor particularly well liked by the military. State & Local police forces are insufficient to pull off a coup.

Emily's Cat · 10th November 2020, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

OK. So?

That's all. Nothing more. The skew toward blue for Mail votes would reasonably be observable in states where mail-in has previously been uncommon, less so in areas where it was already common. The assumption that mail skews blue wouldn't necessarily hold in states where mail was already common - mail would be more likely to be closer in distribution to the in-person votes in those states.

Just an observation and a comment on the nature of prior dynamics and the variance of outcomes by state. I just think it's neat.

Foster Zygote · 10th November 2020, 11:32 AM

Good piece on the election by John Oliver.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Emily's Cat · 10th November 2020, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by uke2se

Don't worry. If SCOTUS intervenes and declares that votes cast for Biden aren't to be counted, Emily's Cat will tell us that it's nothing to worry about, because it's the law of the land after all.

You really suck at mind reading.

If that were to happen, EC would take up arms in open rebellion against a corrupt government.

But go ahead, keep on banging that drum. As long as you do your part to make sure that anyone challenging the fearmongering narrative is cast as a stooge or a villain, your purity will pass the test.

slyjoe · 10th November 2020, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

That's all. Nothing more. The skew toward blue for Mail votes would reasonably be observable in states where mail-in has previously been uncommon, less so in areas where it was already common. The assumption that mail skews blue wouldn't necessarily hold in states where mail was already common - mail would be more likely to be closer in distribution to the in-person votes in those states.

Just an observation and a comment on the nature of prior dynamics and the variance of outcomes by state. I just think it's neat.

Don't forget that Trump encouraged his supporters to NOT mail in ballots.

turingtest · 10th November 2020, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

This way. 4,640,688

It'll be 5,000,000+ before it's all over; and I agree with you that Biden will prevail, that the right thing to happen will also be the thing Biden and those 76+ million have a right to expect. But my point isn't the way he's winning, it's the problem with the way Trump and the GOP are losing- they're making such a laughable farce of the process that someone who actually had a stake in making American democracy a shambles couldn't improve on it.

Originally Posted by Garrison

And this is the problem with calling for the Democratic party to play the Republicans at their own game, there is no game any more. The Republicans will cheerfully burn down the entire system for the least bit of short term advantage. If the Democrats copy their playbook that's pretty much 'the end' for the institutions of Democracy in the USA.

(Sigh) Yeah, agreed. I understand the frustration involved when going high when they go low just results in them going even lower; but there's got to be a way to save the process that doesn't involve destroying it by mutually agreeing that it's no better than satisfaction of grudges.

Captain_Swoop · 10th November 2020, 11:36 AM

authoritarian leaders of other countries have more respect for our election results than the GOP

ERDOGAN CONGRATULATES BIDEN ON U.S. PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WIN

JoeMorgue · 10th November 2020, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

You really suck at mind reading.

If that were to happen, EC would take up arms in open rebellion against a corrupt government.

But go ahead, keep on banging that drum. As long as you do your part to make sure that anyone challenging the fearmongering narrative is cast as a stooge or a villain, your purity will pass the test.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Do you have a source for the highlighted? Prefereably one with context? My recollection (which could very well be faulty) is that he said he wouldn't accept it without making sure it was legitimate.

Ah I see we're dealing with another "Inference is not a thing you can do" persona.

When the heavyset Italian guy and his two "associates" come into your quaint little lower East side flower shop and says "Nice place you got here, be a shame if something happened to it, yeah real shame" do you think he's really just complimenting your shop and worrying about any potential bad things happening to it?

TragicMonkey · 10th November 2020, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Oh yes the "Let's stop the discussion and list all the things Trump has done because I'm going to pretend I've forgotten them and make you repeat them all just to waste your time" stage of the discussion.

Wait water is wet? When was this established? I demand the discussion stop and everyone prove to me yet again that water is wet so I can forget it again in 10 minutes.

Yes, I always love this portion of the discussion. Such a beautiful atmosphere, being gas-lit.

acbytesla · 10th November 2020, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

I give SCOTUS more credit than you, it seems. Trump is not well liked in the intelligence agencies, nor particularly well liked by the military. State & Local police forces are insufficient to pull off a coup.

You're right. You do. Justice Kavanaugh has openly intimated that he would help Trump. Clarence Thomas is a corrupt justice who should have been impeached a decade ago. The only one on the right side of the bench that has any semblance of principles is Roberts. That said, they have to know that encouraging a corrupt wannabe dictator would put an end to democracy.

Skeptic Ginger · 10th November 2020, 11:38 AM

NVMD Ninja'd by everyone.

Captain_Swoop · 10th November 2020, 11:38 AM

Don't forget that republican Senators blocked multiple bills earlier this year that were intended to improve election security?

10th November 2020, 10:52 AM	#521
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,399	Originally Posted by slyjoe I won't disagree. I'm pretty ambivalent about it. I don't have strong feelings about it one way or another. They're short posts, easy to skip over with no impact. And they're usually on-topic. I'd prefer a bit of commentary or a link with them, but at the end of the day, they're just not a big deal. It's up there with tapatalk sigs. Mildly annoying sometimes, but easy to move past. I don't understand why anyone would get actually peeved about them.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

10th November 2020, 10:55 AM	#522
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,597	Originally Posted by turingtest This right here. It's a little disingenuous to say "oh, Trump's lost, he'll be gone in a couple of months, so what difference does it make?" It's the way he's losing, and the way the GOP largely is enabling that, that makes a difference. Trump isn't, AFAICT, doing anything he doesn't have a strict right to do. But Republicans over the last few years have made an absolute fetish of doing things they have a technical right to do without any consideration for whether those things are the right thing to do. Blocking Obama's SC pick in '16, ramming through their own this year (even when they had to directly contradict their stance from four years earlier to do so), and now demanding recounts that won't realistically make any difference and "investigations" that are really nothing more than specious and unfounded placeholders for riling their base and (probably) making money off the rubes...all these things make a compete hash of our democracy. How is any citizen ever going to be able to have confidence in the integrity of the process- which the GOP claims is their primary reason for wanting the recounts/investigations- when any future loser of an election has only to cite this one as precedent for throwing shade on that process for his case? This way. 4,640,688
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

10th November 2020, 10:56 AM	#523
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,571	Originally Posted by turingtest This right here. It's a little disingenuous to say "oh, Trump's lost, he'll be gone in a couple of months, so what difference does it make?" It's the way he's losing, and the way the GOP largely is enabling that, that makes a difference. Trump isn't, AFAICT, doing anything he doesn't have a strict right to do. But Republicans over the last few years have made an absolute fetish of doing things they have a technical right to do without any consideration for whether those things are the right thing to do. Blocking Obama's SC pick in '16, ramming through their own this year (even when they had to directly contradict their stance from four years earlier to do so), and now demanding recounts that won't realistically make any difference and "investigations" that are really nothing more than specious and unfounded placeholders for riling their base and (probably) making money off the rubes...all these things make a compete hash of our democracy. How is any citizen ever going to be able to have confidence in the integrity of the process- which the GOP claims is their primary reason for wanting the recounts/investigations- when any future loser of an election has only to cite this one as precedent for throwing shade on that process for his case? And this is the problem with calling for the Democratic party to play the Republicans at their own game, there is no game any more. The Republicans will cheerfully burn down the entire system for the least bit of short term advantage. If the Democrats copy their playbook that's pretty much 'the end' for the institutions of Democracy in the USA.
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

10th November 2020, 10:58 AM	#524
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,357	Its a mistake to be too charitable to a guy who has a lifetime history of malicious cheating in virtually every other facet of his life.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,357

10th November 2020, 11:03 AM	#525
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,379	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat For example - you say he's actively trying to steal the election. You've already made your decision that he has lost the election (which I agree with) and that he is aware of and believes that he lost the election (which I disagree with to a degree) and furthermore that he is actively and with malice intentionally trying to cheat (which I disagree with). There's a lot of assumed motivations and mind-reading in there. It's not mind-reading. Trump stated outright that he would not accept any outcome where he was not the winner. He is claiming election fraud with no evidence, and trying to get the courts to interfere in the vote counting. This is a straight up attempt to steal the election. And we shouldn't be surprised, because he has used similar tactics in his private business dealings. He is an inveterate liar and fraudster who has (mostly) gotten away with it so far. IOW, he has form. We don't need to read his mind to know what he is doing.
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

10th November 2020, 11:05 AM	#526
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat Some very few idiots might want him to become dictator... but most conservatives (and Republicans even) are actually pretty big on personal liberty and the preservation of the constitution. Uh, no they aren't. They may claim they like their freedoms when it comes to gun rights, taxes, etc. But those freedoms never seem to extend to things like free speech (in particular pr0n), abortion rights, drug laws, etc. I'm not saying that Liberals/progressives don't also have their own set of acceptable freedoms/restrictions, but its wrong to think that Conservatives are actually big on liberty. And of course, for many, power trumps a desire for freedom. Quote: There's nowhere near enough people that want Trump to be dictator for it to have a chance in hell of occurring. The risk isn't that they would come outright and say "we want a Trump dictatorship"... its that they would engage in their regular dirty tricks (voter suppression, gerrymandering, conspiring with foreign governments), in an attempt to maintain Republican power, and since Trump is at the top he would benefit. Quote: And that's all assuming that Trump actually genuinely wants to be a dictator. He has certainly shown an authoritarian streak... an unwillingness to compromise, use dirty tricks (e.g. foreign influence) to rig an election, etc. Does that mean 'dictatorship'? Well, its uncomfortably close for some. Quote: I am so completely tired of all of this. Not you specifically, just the entire topic. It's been four years of non-stop fearmongering about the horrible evil things that Trump is certain to do. And whenever one of them doesn't happen, a new terror is simply inserted and the manufactured outrage continues unabated. He has: called neo-nazis "fine people", had children locked in cages, wasted billions to build a useless wall (taking money from the military to do so), allowed disease to spread unchecked in the U.S., driven up the deficit in order to give tax breaks to millionaires, and set back the U.S. in handling the environment. I think people have a reason to be outraged. In the 2016 election, we thought Trump would be a disaster economically. Well, the deficit increased under him, and job growth slowed. We thought Trump would be a disaster for the environment, and he has rolled back environmental regulations. We thought he would enable racism, and sure enough, kids are locked in cages. We knew the wall would be a big boondoggle, and it is. About the biggest fear that people had that wasn't realized is that Trump might start a war (which he hasn't... yet)... But his incompetence almost started a conflict with Iran, and it destabilized parts of Syria/Iraq. Quote: Trump lost the election. Who the **** gives a crap what he says or what he wants anymore? Just sit back and be happy that Biden won, and let it go. Because Trump is still president until the new year, and can do substantial damage until Biden takes office. Because Trump has to work with the incoming administration during the transition, and if he is acting like a toddler, that's not going to work well.
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10th November 2020, 11:07 AM	#527
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,644	Oh yes the "Let's stop the discussion and list all the things Trump has done because I'm going to pretend I've forgotten them and make you repeat them all just to waste your time" stage of the discussion. Wait water is wet? When was this established? I demand the discussion stop and everyone prove to me yet again that water is wet so I can forget it again in 10 minutes.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

10th November 2020, 11:10 AM	#528
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Pither 12/20 Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 32,825	Trump lost Pennsylvania by more than 45,000 votes, but this tweet is a good reminder that he'd totally do a coup to stay in power if he could Quote Tweet @Donald J. Trump Pennsylvania Party Leadership votes are this week. I hope they pick very tough and smart fighters. We will WIN!!

10th November 2020, 11:11 AM	#529
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,597	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Oh yes the "Let's stop the discussion and list all the things Trump has done because I'm going to pretend I've forgotten them and make you repeat them all just to waste your time" stage of the discussion. Wait water is wet? When was this established? I demand the discussion stop and everyone prove to me yet again that water is wet so I can forget it again in 10 minutes. When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

10th November 2020, 11:11 AM	#530
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,399	Originally Posted by acbytesla I wish it was that easy. I know my history too well. Coups have been started on less. The Republicans are unwilling to say that he lost. 70 million Americans voted for Trump. And I still see idiots parading around with guns and Trump signs. Trump appointees are preventing the transfer of power. Trump fired the SECDEF and replaced him with a toadie. The AG has ordered investigations (well sort of) into the election. SCOTUS at this very moment is hearing Trump's appeal. That they are even considering it and not rejecting it out of hand is a bit troubling. This will all crumble in the next couple of days or it's going to get ugly. I personally think it's most likely to crumble...but I still worry. Stop worrying. It'll lead you to an early grave. Coups have been started with less... in situations where the military was under direct control of the person in charge and supported that person's coup. Despite a lot of the Hollywood-driven narrative around military personnel, that's not going to happen in the US. The president is titularly Commander in Chief, but the oaths of the military are to the Office of the President (not the individual) and first and foremost to uphold the Constitution. And the vast, overwhelming majority of active duty military, especially high ranking officers, take that oath very, very seriously. Republicans are unwilling to say he lost. Well, duh. Of course they are. A lot Democrats spent most of 2017 spinning that Trump wasn't "their" president, or that he wasn't a "legitimate" president, and pretty much trying to have him removed from office from before he even officially took office. That's the price of a FPTP system that has devolved into two-party loggerheads. That divide has been widening through my entire lifetime. It's in the interests of the party to exhaust every possible avenue of challenge before conceding defeat. In most elections, it hasn't been quite so close. I mean, the popular vote isn't close, and the EC count as it stands isn't close... but the votes within several states are really close. Several of the states that Biden took at the end were within 1% difference. I think it's unlikely, but I can see the game theory behind challenging them - it's hypothetically possible that one or more of them could flip on recount or on challenged ballots. Like I said, I don't think it's likely, but I would fully expect a Democrat in the same situation to challenge wherever possible. 70 million people voted for Trump. Yup. But it's not like all 70M of them actually like him. Many don't. Many are old-school Republican, and even if the current Republicans don't represent those old-schoolers, they do a better job of it than Democrats do. There are some fundamental divides in the US, that aren't being well addressed by our government. I don't expect that divide to lessen until someone in power actually starts doing their job for ALL of the people of the US, irrespective of the parties involved.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

10th November 2020, 11:12 AM	#531
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,597	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trump lost Pennsylvania by more than 45,000 votes, but this tweet is a good reminder that he'd totally do a coup to stay in power if he could Quote Tweet @Donald J. Trump Pennsylvania Party Leadership votes are this week. I hope they pick very tough and smart fighters. We will WIN!! He also lost the national election by 100 times that.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

10th November 2020, 11:12 AM	#532
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,399	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza I worry that Republicans will keep this up until after the Georgia Run-off, because what they need to win is Trump's support. I don't know what you mean. Can you elaborate?
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

10th November 2020, 11:14 AM	#533
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,399	Originally Posted by acbytesla I'm 90 percent sure PA has had absentee mail in ballots for a long time. The only difference in this election, the state mailed ballots to all registered voters and not just citizens that requested them. That's what I was trying to get at. It's a change in the overall dynamic for PA, which could very reasonably lead to a difference in voting patterns. For states where mail-in are the default(ish), I wouldn't expect to see a difference in voting pattern.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

10th November 2020, 11:14 AM	#534
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,734	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat This could be a whole 'nother thread. First off, there's a lot of interpretation and spin involved in some of this. I understand that this is your perspective, and that's fine. But there's still opinion involved. For example - you say he's actively trying to steal the election. You've already made your decision that he has lost the election (which I agree with) and that he is aware of and believes that he lost the election (which I disagree with to a degree) and furthermore that he is actively and with malice intentionally trying to cheat (which I disagree with). There's a lot of assumed motivations and mind-reading in there. On the other side of things, however, Trump supporters might genuinely believe that there are ballot shenanigans going on, and that Biden cheated. I don't believe that, but my lack of belief doesn't invalidate their belief. And I'm inclined to think that Trump 1) genuinely believes that there has been voter fraud or manipulation in this election, in part because 2) he desperately needs to believe that he didn't lose. This presents a situation where Trump can hold irrational beliefs, act in ways that are not in the interest of the US... but still not be doing it via malice. Pretty much all of the other things you listed fall into very similar patterns. Everyone might agree on the observable objective facts (ok, well 99% of people, because some are insane)... but that doesn't mean that everyone will filter them through the same belief structure, or that everyone will assume the same motivations for those facts. That's the thing that has bothered me most over the past four years - the sheer volume of unabashed mind-reading going on among self-styled skeptics. People assume they know the motivation and the state of Trump's mind, and then somehow become incapable of acknowledging that they're making assumptions and speculations, as well as becoming unable to consider any other possible motivation at all. One point that is clear: any time an argument depends on a premise regarding Trump's beliefs, we're on shaky ground. We all agree that Trump lies, I reckon, but it also seems that he is capable of believing whatever is beneficial at the moment. For all I know, he looked at the crowd at his inauguration and decided it was massive, undoubtedly the most massive ever seen. On the other hand, when he or an aide took a sharpie to the NOAA map, there's no reasonable description other than intentional deception.

10th November 2020, 11:17 AM	#535
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,980	Originally Posted by eerok No, I was paraphrasing, and that was my editorial comment. He did use the word "sloppy" though. Thank goodness. Not that Biden needs Georgia but the precedent would be bad.

10th November 2020, 11:17 AM	#536
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,399	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets It's not mind-reading. Trump stated outright that he would not accept any outcome where he was not the winner. He is claiming election fraud with no evidence, and trying to get the courts to interfere in the vote counting. This is a straight up attempt to steal the election. And we shouldn't be surprised, because he has used similar tactics in his private business dealings. He is an inveterate liar and fraudster who has (mostly) gotten away with it so far. IOW, he has form. We don't need to read his mind to know what he is doing. Do you have a source for the highlighted? Prefereably one with context? My recollection (which could very well be faulty) is that he said he wouldn't accept it without making sure it was legitimate.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

10th November 2020, 11:18 AM	#537
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,181	I don't know guys, maybe we have just been overreacting over these four last years? I mean, it's not like he actually did any of the bad things we thought he might? Only he did. As well as plenty of bad things we never even imagined he would. I don't understand how Emily's Cat can claim with a straight face to be tired of overreactions. In fact, I don't believe Emily's Cat is doing it with a straight face.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

10th November 2020, 11:18 AM	#538
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,597	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat That's what I was trying to get at. It's a change in the overall dynamic for PA, which could very reasonably lead to a difference in voting patterns. For states where mail-in are the default(ish), I wouldn't expect to see a difference in voting pattern. AZ has had mail-in voting for 26 (I think) years. It flipped this time around.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

10th November 2020, 11:19 AM	#539
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,399	Originally Posted by phiwum One point that is clear: any time an argument depends on a premise regarding Trump's beliefs, we're on shaky ground. We all agree that Trump lies, I reckon, but it also seems that he is capable of believing whatever is beneficial at the moment. For all I know, he looked at the crowd at his inauguration and decided it was massive, undoubtedly the most massive ever seen. On the other hand, when he or an aide took a sharpie to the NOAA map, there's no reasonable description other than intentional deception. That's much more concise than what I said.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

10th November 2020, 11:22 AM	#540
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Pither 12/20 Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 32,825	“There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration.” Pompeo today.

10th November 2020, 11:24 AM	#541
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,597	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat Stop worrying. It'll lead you to an early grave. Coups have been started with less... in situations where the military was under direct control of the person in charge and supported that person's coup. Despite a lot of the Hollywood-driven narrative around military personnel, that's not going to happen in the US. The president is titularly Commander in Chief, but the oaths of the military are to the Office of the President (not the individual) and first and foremost to uphold the Constitution. And the vast, overwhelming majority of active duty military, especially high ranking officers, take that oath very, very seriously. Republicans are unwilling to say he lost. Well, duh. Of course they are. A lot Democrats spent most of 2017 spinning that Trump wasn't "their" president, or that he wasn't a "legitimate" president, and pretty much trying to have him removed from office from before he even officially took office. That's the price of a FPTP system that has devolved into two-party loggerheads. That divide has been widening through my entire lifetime. It's in the interests of the party to exhaust every possible avenue of challenge before conceding defeat. In most elections, it hasn't been quite so close. I mean, the popular vote isn't close, and the EC count as it stands isn't close... but the votes within several states are really close. Several of the states that Biden took at the end were within 1% difference. I think it's unlikely, but I can see the game theory behind challenging them - it's hypothetically possible that one or more of them could flip on recount or on challenged ballots. Like I said, I don't think it's likely, but I would fully expect a Democrat in the same situation to challenge wherever possible. 70 million people voted for Trump. Yup. But it's not like all 70M of them actually like him. Many don't. Many are old-school Republican, and even if the current Republicans don't represent those old-schoolers, they do a better job of it than Democrats do. There are some fundamental divides in the US, that aren't being well addressed by our government. I don't expect that divide to lessen until someone in power actually starts doing their job for ALL of the people of the US, irrespective of the parties involved. I don't disagree with any of that. But the Executive branch of the government controls most of the levers of government. And Trump and his cabal have their hands on those levers including SCOTUS, the Senate, the intelligence Agencies, the military etc. Most of the police in the US are authoritarians who supported Trump. I could go on. Until I see real cracks in that alliance I remain concerned. Right now I need to hear that SCOTUS rejects the appeal. I'll breathe a lot easier hearing that.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 10th November 2020 at 11:26 AM.

10th November 2020, 11:25 AM	#542
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,980	Originally Posted by Vixen My take is that when he saw his large early leads of 300,000 plus, he had a massive surge of adrenaline and really thought it would stay that way. His STOP THE COUNT! was a major panic attack of the Help! I'm drowning! Someone save me! Where are my minions and lackies?! Bring me a cavalcade so I can go out and meet the crowds of my supporters!!! Do it now!!! He just can't believe people have voted for Sleepy Joe and Socialist Harris. It is just not possible. Think of this as the grieving process stages: Denial ... Anger ... Bargaining ... Depression ... Acceptance. He's in denial: he couldn't have lost; the SCOTUS will make him king. He has anger mixing in. Bargaining might consist of 'if other people had done better'. Usually it's the grieving person who obsesses about 'if only I had'. I suspect then he'll never move past depression into acceptance. Or maybe moving out of the WH will be a modified version of acceptance.

10th November 2020, 11:26 AM	#543
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,597	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat That's what I was trying to get at. It's a change in the overall dynamic for PA, which could very reasonably lead to a difference in voting patterns. For states where mail-in are the default(ish), I wouldn't expect to see a difference in voting pattern. OK. So?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

10th November 2020, 11:26 AM	#544
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,181	Originally Posted by acbytesla I don't disagree with any of that. But the Executive branch of the government controls most of the levers of government. And Trump and his cabal have their hands on those levers including SCOTUS, the Senate, the intelligence Agencies, the military etc. Most of the police in the US are authoritarians who supported Trump. I could go on. Until I see real cracks in that alliance I remain concerned. Right now I need to hear that SCOTUS rejects the appeal. Ill breathe a lot easier hearing that. Don't worry. If SCOTUS intervenes and declares that votes cast for Biden aren't to be counted, Emily's Cat will tell us that it's nothing to worry about, because it's the law of the land after all.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

10th November 2020, 11:27 AM	#545
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,246	Originally Posted by phiwum One point that is clear: any time an argument depends on a premise regarding Trump's beliefs, we're on shaky ground. We all agree that Trump lies, I reckon, but it also seems that he is capable of believing whatever is beneficial at the moment. For all I know, he looked at the crowd at his inauguration and decided it was massive, undoubtedly the most massive ever seen. On the other hand, when he or an aide took a sharpie to the NOAA map, there's no reasonable description other than intentional deception. Mary Trump said that, with the enabling of the GOP, he will have convinced himself he really has won the election and was cheated by election fraud. The mail-in ballot voter fraud bit may have started out as a tactic he knew wasn't true but it has become Trump's reality.

10th November 2020, 11:27 AM	#546
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,399	Originally Posted by slyjoe AZ has had mail-in voting for 26 (I think) years. It flipped this time around. Sorry, I'm not being very clear This is all on me. I'm trying (and failing) to say that in states where mail-in voting has been uncommon, it is reasonable to think that there would be a notable difference in party favorite between mail-in votes and in-person votes (like we saw in PA). But that in states where mail-in has been common and is well established, we wouldn't expect to see as big a difference. I wasn't saying that the overall outcome would be the same in terms of Red/Blue as in the past.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

10th November 2020, 11:28 AM	#547
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,980	Originally Posted by Firestone If you live in Minnesota, and haven't voted yet, please do NOW! Eric Trump tweeted some 20 minutes ago: Minnesota get out and vote!!! Attachment 43542 Suppose he'll follow that with something to the effect that late voters are cheating Daddy?

10th November 2020, 11:28 AM	#548
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,597	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat Sorry, I'm not being very clear This is all on me. I'm trying (and failing) to say that in states where mail-in voting has been uncommon, it is reasonable to think that there would be a notable difference in party favorite between mail-in votes and in-person votes (like we saw in PA). But that in states where mail-in has been common and is well established, we wouldn't expect to see as big a difference. I wasn't saying that the overall outcome would be the same in terms of Red/Blue as in the past. So?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

10th November 2020, 11:28 AM	#549
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,399	Originally Posted by acbytesla I don't disagree with any of that. But the Executive branch of the government controls most of the levers of government. And Trump and his cabal have their hands on those levers including SCOTUS, the Senate, the intelligence Agencies, the military etc. Most of the police in the US are authoritarians who supported Trump. I could go on. Until I see real cracks in that alliance I remain concerned. Right now I need to hear that SCOTUS rejects the appeal. I'll breathe a lot easier hearing that. I give SCOTUS more credit than you, it seems. Trump is not well liked in the intelligence agencies, nor particularly well liked by the military. State & Local police forces are insufficient to pull off a coup.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

10th November 2020, 11:31 AM	#550
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,399	Originally Posted by acbytesla OK. So? That's all. Nothing more. The skew toward blue for Mail votes would reasonably be observable in states where mail-in has previously been uncommon, less so in areas where it was already common. The assumption that mail skews blue wouldn't necessarily hold in states where mail was already common - mail would be more likely to be closer in distribution to the in-person votes in those states. Just an observation and a comment on the nature of prior dynamics and the variance of outcomes by state. I just think it's neat.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

10th November 2020, 11:33 AM	#552
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,399	Originally Posted by uke2se Don't worry. If SCOTUS intervenes and declares that votes cast for Biden aren't to be counted, Emily's Cat will tell us that it's nothing to worry about, because it's the law of the land after all. You really suck at mind reading. If that were to happen, EC would take up arms in open rebellion against a corrupt government. But go ahead, keep on banging that drum. As long as you do your part to make sure that anyone challenging the fearmongering narrative is cast as a stooge or a villain, your purity will pass the test.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

10th November 2020, 11:34 AM	#553
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,597	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat That's all. Nothing more. The skew toward blue for Mail votes would reasonably be observable in states where mail-in has previously been uncommon, less so in areas where it was already common. The assumption that mail skews blue wouldn't necessarily hold in states where mail was already common - mail would be more likely to be closer in distribution to the in-person votes in those states. Just an observation and a comment on the nature of prior dynamics and the variance of outcomes by state. I just think it's neat. Don't forget that Trump encouraged his supporters to NOT mail in ballots.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

10th November 2020, 11:35 AM	#554
turingtest Mistral, mistral wind... Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi Posts: 4,737	Originally Posted by acbytesla This way. 4,640,688 It'll be 5,000,000+ before it's all over; and I agree with you that Biden will prevail, that the right thing to happen will also be the thing Biden and those 76+ million have a right to expect. But my point isn't the way he's winning, it's the problem with the way Trump and the GOP are losing- they're making such a laughable farce of the process that someone who actually had a stake in making American democracy a shambles couldn't improve on it. Originally Posted by Garrison And this is the problem with calling for the Democratic party to play the Republicans at their own game, there is no game any more. The Republicans will cheerfully burn down the entire system for the least bit of short term advantage. If the Democrats copy their playbook that's pretty much 'the end' for the institutions of Democracy in the USA. (Sigh) Yeah, agreed. I understand the frustration involved when going high when they go low just results in them going even lower; but there's got to be a way to save the process that doesn't involve destroying it by mutually agreeing that it's no better than satisfaction of grudges.
	__________________ I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King

10th November 2020, 11:36 AM	#555
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Pither 12/20 Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 32,825	authoritarian leaders of other countries have more respect for our election results than the GOP ERDOGAN CONGRATULATES BIDEN ON U.S. PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WIN

10th November 2020, 11:36 AM	#556
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,644	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat You really suck at mind reading. If that were to happen, EC would take up arms in open rebellion against a corrupt government. But go ahead, keep on banging that drum. As long as you do your part to make sure that anyone challenging the fearmongering narrative is cast as a stooge or a villain, your purity will pass the test. Originally Posted by Emily's Cat Do you have a source for the highlighted? Prefereably one with context? My recollection (which could very well be faulty) is that he said he wouldn't accept it without making sure it was legitimate. Ah I see we're dealing with another "Inference is not a thing you can do" persona. When the heavyset Italian guy and his two "associates" come into your quaint little lower East side flower shop and says "Nice place you got here, be a shame if something happened to it, yeah real shame" do you think he's really just complimenting your shop and worrying about any potential bad things happening to it?
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."