[Continuation] 2020 Presidential Election part 3 - Page 22

Elagabalus · 11th November 2020, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Tweets flagged by Twitter:
This claim about election fraud is disputed

Trump Tweets

The Fake Pollsters at @ABC/@washingtonpost produced a possibly illegal suppression Poll just before the Election showing me down 17 points in Wisconsin when, in fact, on Election Day, the race was even - & we are now preparing to win the state. Many such “deplorable” instances!

A guy named Al Schmidt, a Philadelphia Commissioner and so-called Republican (RINO), is being used big time by the Fake News Media to explain how honest things were with respect to the Election in Philadelphia. He refuses to look at a mountain of corruption & dishonesty. We win!

That lousy Al Schmidt. smh.

pgwenthold · 11th November 2020, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Isn't it just an automatic recount based on the narrow victory margin for Biden?

Dave

But that doesn't need to be a HAND recount

Vixen · 11th November 2020, 10:38 AM

Trump wins Alaska. From AP:

Quote:

President Donald Trump has won the state of Alaska.

The Republican nominee was awarded the state’s three electoral votes, pushing his Electoral College tally to 217.

His Democratic opponent, Joe Biden, was declared the winner of the presidential election on Nov. 7 after flipping Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. Trump won those states in 2016.

Biden has 290 electoral votes.

pgwenthold · 11th November 2020, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

From Politico:

My main point is a full hand recount is less accurate than a machine recount.

I agree.

A hand recount means a lot more people involved, and a lot more locations (even if it means more tables in a gym). Then you have to combine all those counts.

It would be more efficient and less diffuse to run a stack of 100 000 through a machine in a couple of hours than to have them split out into 20 stacks of 5 000

Paul2 · 11th November 2020, 10:43 AM

For those (like me) who are paranoid about Trump stealing the election, here is some comfort that has some substance behind it, scroll to 2:55 when Jake Tapper mentions that he's been talking with Republicans:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1326295478175211521

phiwum · 11th November 2020, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

It's already the way, and has been for a while. The (probably needless) investigation would put to rest some of the concerns, and potentially strengthen our election system, because it does have loopholes. Even if the impact of those loopholes is small, they do exist, and thus will always be a source of conflict.

The tactics are different by party, but most of the strategies are the same. For the Republicans right now, it's voter fraud (which they've used before as well). In 2016, it was the Democrats crying that Russians hacked the voter booths. The Obama Birthers got replaced by the Pee Tapers. This isn't new. But Trump sure does make it blatant.

Oh? Name a single prominent Democrat who gave any time to the pee tape allegations.

Investigating Russian influence and Trump's willingness to accept it is not even close to Birtherism.

Vixen · 11th November 2020, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Georgia secretary of state announces hand recount of presidential race

Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger announced Wednesday his state will conduct a manual hand recount of all ballots cast in the presidential race in the state, as he faces growing pressure from fellow Georgia Republicans over unsubstantiated accusations of voting irregularities and mismanagement of the state's elections.

"This will help build confidence. It will be an audit, a recount and a recanvass all at once," Raffensperger said at a press conference. "It will be a heavy lift."

He said the presidential contest will undergo a risk-limiting audit, which requires a full by-hand recount in each of Georgia's 159 counties.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/georgia...idential-race/

If it's 'an audit', it is likely to be based on random samples rather than all six million or so.

phiwum · 11th November 2020, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

And I'm sure that if Trump had won the EC vote, all of the democrats in the country would have just gone quietly without protests of any sort, right?

Different actors, same play.

But that's okay, I'm well aware of your deep partisanship.

There may well have been large protests had Trump won. I don't believe Democratic leadership would claim the election was utterly fraudulent. That's a big difference that you can't pretend not to notice.

Vixen · 11th November 2020, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

We have Rudy Gulliani on ISF?!

I am sure we have had worse.

pgwenthold · 11th November 2020, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

That lousy Al Schmidt. smh.

There was a twitter thread about this guy.

You talk about REAL republican, this is the guy. Working hard to fight the democratic machine in Philadelphia, eventually got himself elected.

If this is not what the Republicans want working for them, then that is their problem.

wareyin · 11th November 2020, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

The tactics are different by party, but most of the strategies are the same. For the Republicans right now, it's voter fraud (which they've used before as well). In 2016, it was the Democrats crying that Russians hacked the voter booths. The Obama Birthers got replaced by the Pee Tapers. This isn't new. But Trump sure does make it blatant.

No. In 2016 Democrats were complaining about Russian interference, especially with regard to social media campaigns, wikileaks, and the like. And those complaints were found to be valid by the Republican led Senate panel that investigated

slyjoe · 11th November 2020, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

If it's 'an audit', it is likely to be based on random samples rather than all six million or so.

He's going beyond that.

ETA: See my post 841.

acbytesla · 11th November 2020, 10:53 AM

Biden: 77,279,336
Trump: 72,198,523

Margin: 5,080,813

https://cookpolitical.com/2020-natio...r-vote-tracker

phiwum · 11th November 2020, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

Georgia hand recount is a poor approach. These things should be based on evidence. And assuming a hand recount is better than a machine recount is incorrect.

ETA: I seem to remember someone having a signature to the effect "A man with a single watch knows what time it is, while a man with two watches is never sure."

To be fair, a man with one watch is confident about the time, while a man with two watches is not. Not quite the same thing.

timhau · 11th November 2020, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by phiwum

Oh? Name a single prominent Democrat who gave any time to the pee tape allegations.

Investigating Russian influence and Trump's willingness to accept it is not even close to Birtherism.

Yeah, and the Russian interference in the 2016 elections is well documented for all who haven't decided not to look.

Meadmaker · 11th November 2020, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

No. In 2016 Democrats were complaining about Russian interference, especially with regard to social media campaigns, wikileaks, and the like. And those complaints were found to be valid by the Republican led Senate panel that investigated

To be fair, I did hear a lot of people crying about Russians hacking voter booths. However, no elected officials that I am aware of ever said that. It was just yammering on social media and the like.

slyjoe · 11th November 2020, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by phiwum

To be fair, a man with one watch is confident about the time, while a man with two watches is not. Not quite the same thing.

Thanks - you are correct. I was going off the top of my head.

phiwum · 11th November 2020, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

No. In 2016 Democrats were complaining about Russian interference, especially with regard to social media campaigns, wikileaks, and the like. And those complaints were found to be valid by the Republican led Senate panel that investigated

I do think that Emily's Cat seems to be quite careful in parsing claims about Trump but quite footloose when describing the actions of Democrats. It does not result in a fair comparison and weakens her claim that both sides are driven by partisanship to similar degree.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th November 2020, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Paul2

In every case, it will come down to the Supreme Court, and Roberts and Gorsuch in particular, I think. If state legislatures try to install their hand-picked electors, the Dems will file suit and it will go to SCOTUS. Any Trump lawsuit will wind up at SCOTUS.

While my stomach knots over the election clearly are not over as I thought they would be, which states are these that you think the legislators are interested in installing unfaithful electors?

Because I've only heard from one (can't remember which one) and they insisted they are not about to overturn the vote in their states.

Paul2 · 11th November 2020, 11:02 AM

This is a great, slick, "economical burn" by Joe Biden. He's not actually saying explicitly what everyone knows he's talking about, and then lets you know that with that knowing laugh! That laugh just warms my heart.

https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/s...nistrue.com%2F

Paul2 · 11th November 2020, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

While my stomach knots over the election clearly are not over as I thought they would be, which states are these that you think the legislators are interested in installing unfaithful electors?

Because I've only heard from one (can't remember which one) and they insisted they are not about to overturn the vote in their states.

I think that was PA, which is obviously crucial.

Things can change. We need to hear the overweight female vocalizing.

That it has to happen in multiple states greatly reduces its chances.

You never know.

eerok · 11th November 2020, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Paul2

For those (like me) who are paranoid about Trump stealing the election, here is some comfort that has some substance behind it, scroll to 2:55 when Jake Tapper mentions that he's been talking with Republicans:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1326295478175211521

IMO America is divided, but far from broken. I don't think most Republicans would support actual shenanigans at this point, because the consequences would be dire. As has been suggested, they're playing a game hoping for an advantage in Georgia, and to protect themselves from Trump's deplorables.

That being said, I'm tempted to take a break from this whole election debacle, but I'm still not sure I can look away.

phiwum · 11th November 2020, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

Thanks - you are correct. I was going off the top of my head.

I think you got the saying correct. I just think that the saying is mistaken.

wareyin · 11th November 2020, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by phiwum

I do think that Emily's Cat seems to be quite careful in parsing claims about Trump but quite footloose when describing the actions of Democrats. It does not result in a fair comparison and weakens her claim that both sides are driven by partisanship to similar degree.

In the current political climate, to see both sides as the same it basically requires people to always interpret Republicans in the best light possible while also interpreting Democrats in the worst light possible.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th November 2020, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

The Empire strikes back:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...id=mailsignout

Replacing the heads of all those military departments with minions is very disturbing.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th November 2020, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Sadly, at this stage I'm not 100% convinced that the election will be certified for Joe Biden. Could GOP Senators refuse to certify the election because there are outstanding lawsuits and ensuring that the electoral process is robust for the future is far more important than certifying a single President, in dubious circumstances, today ?

Didn't you predict Trump would win the election?

Now what, are you predicting a banana republic coup here?

varwoche · 11th November 2020, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

And I'm sure that if Trump had won the EC vote, all of the democrats in the country would have just gone quietly without protests of any sort, right?

Different actors, same play.

But that's okay, I'm well aware of your deep partisanship.

We don't need alt history. We need only look back to 2016. With smaller margins, Clinton conceded defeat right away. No law suits. No denial of privileges for transfer of power. No Dem senators refusing to refer to Trump as President Elect.

Yet again, you're operating in counter-factual mode, riding a phony baloney centrist high horse.

Emily's Cat · 11th November 2020, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Last I heard he refused to comment.

ETA: So now he posted a video saying he did not recant. If WAPO has any evidence showing otherwise, I don't know.

ETA: From the WAPO article:

If they have the signed affidavit, that should be easy enough to present.

As a general comment... "according to officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity" and similar vagaries tend to make me less than certain of what I'm reading.

Dr. Keith · 11th November 2020, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Didn't you predict Trump would win the election?

Now what, are you predicting a banana republic coup here?

I think The Don's pessimism is a nice balance to the hopes and dreams most of us have.

He was wrong about the election, and I bet he is happy about that. Well, as happy as he could get before realizing that this wasn't over and there was still some room to be pessimistic.

But, I was also wrong about the election. I thought the win would be more decisive and that the Senate would follow suit. And yes, there is still a chance in GA for the senate to follow, so I will continue to be hopeful.

We are all going to be wrong, one way or another. And in the end I will still appreciate the foggy wind that comes in from Don Manor, even if it mars my false hopes of a sunny day.

The Don · 11th November 2020, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Didn't you predict Trump would win the election?

Now what, are you predicting a banana republic coup here?

I thought it likely that he would win the election and he closed the margin on the polls even more than I'd feared.

I think it's more likely that having "lost" the election, he remains President. The means used will likely be legal, faithless electors, legal challenges and so on.

It's not a coup, it's using legal levers of power to achieve their objectives, something the GOP have been doing for years since they realised that winning elections fair and square is very hard.

Paul2 · 11th November 2020, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

I don't think most Republicans would support actual shenanigans at this point, because the consequences would be dire.

Dire consequences have not stopped them in the past, unless you mean dire consequences to their political career, but then it's not clear that any dire consequences would happen to Repubs, especially those in states or districts that went for Trump.

Originally Posted by eerok

As has been suggested, they're playing a game hoping for an advantage in Georgia, and to protect themselves from Trump's deplorables.

This is not mutually exclusive with supporting shenanigans.

Originally Posted by eerok

That being said, I'm tempted to take a break from this whole election debacle, but I'm still not sure I can look away.

I know what'cha mean.

turingtest · 11th November 2020, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Paul2

I think that was PA, which is obviously crucial.

Things can change. We need to hear the overweight female vocalizing.

That it has to happen in multiple states greatly reduces its chances.

You never know.

Here is what is happening in PA. (Link is to Yahoo News story).

Quote:

Republicans in the Pennsylvania state legislature on Tuesday said they would take “extraordinary measures” to find out whether the election in their state was fair, despite having no evidence of any wrongdoing.

State Rep. Dawn Keefer, a Republican from York County, announced that Republicans in the state legislature would move to conduct an audit of the election, and that the state should not certify the election results, or select electors to the Electoral College, until it is completed.

“The General Assembly needs to take extraordinary measures to answer these extraordinary questions,” Keefer said while speaking in front of a group of a dozen or so House Republicans.

But Keefer admitted that she and the Pennsylvania GOP do not have anything more than questions. There is no evidence of anything resembling coordinated cheating in the election.

“We've just gotten a lot of allegations,” Keefer said, referring to what she said was a flurry of calls and e-mails from voters “who are concerned and outraged by the circumstances surrounding this election.”

They have nothing but allegations and "concerned citizens" who have no other reason for thinking that their state's popular vote is in question except what Trump and the GOP has fed them. But, based on that, they want to take "extraordinary measures" to override the electoral system they themselves (the legislature's GOP majority) set up.

Now, it's not likely that this will actually come to anything- as the article explains, it's the state's governor who "appoints electors, in accordance with the state’s popular vote returns." And that governor is a Democrat. But it's the mindset here that is concerning- the way this body of government seems so willing to just set aside a popular vote (that, as of now, has Biden up by a little under 50,000, with votes yet to count), for no other reason than that they don't like the results. And this is from the party that ostensibly wants the voter to have confidence in the integrity of their electoral process...while they're exploring avenues that will let them just set aside what those voters in that process have said.

I haven't been too concerned about Trump and his GOP enablers actually being able to bully their way to a win- and I'm still not overly concerned. But there's a scenario still in play here that's not an impossible one. If they somehow succeed in their "extraordinary measures" in PA, then, via recount, erase Biden's current 14,000 vote lead in GA, then all they need is AZ (where Biden's lead has shrunk to just under 13,000) and hanky-pank NV somehow to overcome or erase Biden's 36,000 vote lead there. Bam- by my math, with AK called today, that gives Trump 270 EC votes.

All very unlikely; but then, it's not that long ago when I would have thought that one of America's two major political parties even considering this sort of ******* was unlikely.

Fast Eddie B · 11th November 2020, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Even engineers and educators and other professionals apparently able to apply critical thinking skills in other areas can allow their critical thinking skills to be overpowered by their emotional and psychological needs.

Understood. But I think that lends support to my case that labeling them as “morons” is simplistic.

turingtest · 11th November 2020, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by varwoche

We don't need alt history. We need only look back to 2016. With smaller margins, Clinton conceded defeat right away. No law suits. No denial of privileges for transfer of power. No Dem senators refusing to refer to Trump as President Elect.

Yet again, you're operating in counter-factual mode, riding a phony baloney centrist high horse.

Along those same lines...EC asked (a few pages ago) for a direct quote of Trump saying that he would only accept the election's result if he won.* I have to ask- why do we need him saying he would only accept the result if he won when he's here now refusing to accept the results because he didn't?

*And, as a matter of fact, he did say just just that in 2016 (link is to contemporaneous NPR article).

Quote:

"Ladies and gentleman I want to make a major announcement today," Trump said, continuing, "I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters, and to all of the people of the United States, that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election ..."

But there was more. Trump then finished that sentence with, "if I win," seemingly admitting a strange logic: that a system rigged against him would be totally acceptable if that rigging ultimately worked out in his favor.

I suppose that could have been a stab at humor from a man not notable for any visible sense of humor; but I'll just quote one of our posters here (Mumbles, I think)- "when someone tells you who they are, believe them." Again, I see no reason to think that someone who has said he will only accept a win, and then refuses to accept a loss, is entitled to any presumption that he's not exactly who he says he is by both word and action.

Emily's Cat · 11th November 2020, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by phiwum

There may well have been large protests had Trump won. I don't believe Democratic leadership would claim the election was utterly fraudulent. That's a big difference that you can't pretend not to notice.

I'm not so certain. They may not have claimed it to be fraudulent, but I give it good odds that they would be challenging the votes in pretty much the same way in any state that was close. It's a difference in tactic, not in strategy.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th November 2020, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Armitage72

There's also the matter of the Leadership PAC that Trump announced he's creating. "Support me or you won't get any of the money I'll be raising."
As if the money would be going anywhere other than into his own pocket.

I think you are right on here.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th November 2020, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

It's already the way, and has been for a while. The (probably needless) investigation would put to rest some of the concerns, and potentially strengthen our election system, because it does have loopholes. Even if the impact of those loopholes is small, they do exist, and thus will always be a source of conflict.

The tactics are different by party, but most of the strategies are the same. For the Republicans right now, it's voter fraud (which they've used before as well). In 2016, it was the Democrats crying that Russians hacked the voter booths. The Obama Birthers got replaced by the Pee Tapers. This isn't new. But Trump sure does make it blatant.

That's quite the false equivalence you've built there.

johnny karate · 11th November 2020, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

I'm not so certain. They may not have claimed it to be fraudulent, but I give it good odds that they would be challenging the votes in pretty much the same way in any state that was close. It's a difference in tactic, not in strategy.

Your lame bothsidesism continues to be unimpressive and unconvincing.

Emily's Cat · 11th November 2020, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

No. In 2016 Democrats were complaining about Russian interference, especially with regard to social media campaigns, wikileaks, and the like. And those complaints were found to be valid by the Republican led Senate panel that investigated

They made a large enough claim about it to prompt an investigation of it.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th November 2020, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Georgia secretary of state announces hand recount of presidential race

Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger announced Wednesday his state will conduct a manual hand recount of all ballots cast in the presidential race in the state, as he faces growing pressure from fellow Georgia Republicans over unsubstantiated accusations of voting irregularities and mismanagement of the state's elections.

"This will help build confidence. It will be an audit, a recount and a recanvass all at once," Raffensperger said at a press conference. "It will be a heavy lift."

He said the presidential contest will undergo a risk-limiting audit, which requires a full by-hand recount in each of Georgia's 159 counties.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/georgia...idential-race/

Apparently when this is done, Trump will have the option of ordering another count, if he chooses a stalling tactic.

11th November 2020, 10:33 AM	#841
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 6,988	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Tweets flagged by Twitter: This claim about election fraud is disputed Trump Tweets The Fake Pollsters at @ABC/@washingtonpost produced a possibly illegal suppression Poll just before the Election showing me down 17 points in Wisconsin when, in fact, on Election Day, the race was even - & we are now preparing to win the state. Many such “deplorable” instances! A guy named Al Schmidt, a Philadelphia Commissioner and so-called Republican (RINO), is being used big time by the Fake News Media to explain how honest things were with respect to the Election in Philadelphia. He refuses to look at a mountain of corruption & dishonesty. We win! That lousy Al Schmidt. smh.
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 6,988

11th November 2020, 10:37 AM	#842
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,208	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers Isn't it just an automatic recount based on the narrow victory margin for Biden? Dave But that doesn't need to be a HAND recount
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

11th November 2020, 10:38 AM	#843
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21,532	Trump wins Alaska. From AP: Quote: President Donald Trump has won the state of Alaska. The Republican nominee was awarded the state’s three electoral votes, pushing his Electoral College tally to 217. His Democratic opponent, Joe Biden, was declared the winner of the presidential election on Nov. 7 after flipping Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. Trump won those states in 2016. Biden has 290 electoral votes.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

11th November 2020, 10:41 AM	#844
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,208	Originally Posted by slyjoe From Politico: My main point is a full hand recount is less accurate than a machine recount. I agree. A hand recount means a lot more people involved, and a lot more locations (even if it means more tables in a gym). Then you have to combine all those counts. It would be more efficient and less diffuse to run a stack of 100 000 through a machine in a couple of hours than to have them split out into 20 stacks of 5 000
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

11th November 2020, 10:43 AM	#845
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,663	For those (like me) who are paranoid about Trump stealing the election, here is some comfort that has some substance behind it, scroll to 2:55 when Jake Tapper mentions that he's been talking with Republicans: https://twitter.com/i/status/1326295478175211521
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,663	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

11th November 2020, 10:43 AM	#846
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,732	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat It's already the way, and has been for a while. The (probably needless) investigation would put to rest some of the concerns, and potentially strengthen our election system, because it does have loopholes. Even if the impact of those loopholes is small, they do exist, and thus will always be a source of conflict. The tactics are different by party, but most of the strategies are the same. For the Republicans right now, it's voter fraud (which they've used before as well). In 2016, it was the Democrats crying that Russians hacked the voter booths. The Obama Birthers got replaced by the Pee Tapers. This isn't new. But Trump sure does make it blatant. Oh? Name a single prominent Democrat who gave any time to the pee tape allegations. Investigating Russian influence and Trump's willingness to accept it is not even close to Birtherism.

11th November 2020, 10:45 AM	#847
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21,532	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Georgia secretary of state announces hand recount of presidential race Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger announced Wednesday his state will conduct a manual hand recount of all ballots cast in the presidential race in the state, as he faces growing pressure from fellow Georgia Republicans over unsubstantiated accusations of voting irregularities and mismanagement of the state's elections. "This will help build confidence. It will be an audit, a recount and a recanvass all at once," Raffensperger said at a press conference. "It will be a heavy lift." He said the presidential contest will undergo a risk-limiting audit, which requires a full by-hand recount in each of Georgia's 159 counties. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/georgia...idential-race/ If it's 'an audit', it is likely to be based on random samples rather than all six million or so.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

11th November 2020, 10:47 AM	#848
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,732	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat And I'm sure that if Trump had won the EC vote, all of the democrats in the country would have just gone quietly without protests of any sort, right? Different actors, same play. But that's okay, I'm well aware of your deep partisanship. There may well have been large protests had Trump won. I don't believe Democratic leadership would claim the election was utterly fraudulent. That's a big difference that you can't pretend not to notice.

11th November 2020, 10:48 AM	#849
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21,532	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer We have Rudy Gulliani on ISF?! I am sure we have had worse.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

11th November 2020, 10:48 AM	#850
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,208	Originally Posted by Elagabalus That lousy Al Schmidt. smh. There was a twitter thread about this guy. You talk about REAL republican, this is the guy. Working hard to fight the democratic machine in Philadelphia, eventually got himself elected. If this is not what the Republicans want working for them, then that is their problem.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

11th November 2020, 10:49 AM	#851
wareyin Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 8,561	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat The tactics are different by party, but most of the strategies are the same. For the Republicans right now, it's voter fraud (which they've used before as well). In 2016, it was the Democrats crying that Russians hacked the voter booths. The Obama Birthers got replaced by the Pee Tapers. This isn't new. But Trump sure does make it blatant. No. In 2016 Democrats were complaining about Russian interference, especially with regard to social media campaigns, wikileaks, and the like. And those complaints were found to be valid by the Republican led Senate panel that investigated

11th November 2020, 10:50 AM	#852
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,588	Originally Posted by Vixen If it's 'an audit', it is likely to be based on random samples rather than all six million or so. He's going beyond that. ETA: See my post 841.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

11th November 2020, 10:53 AM	#853
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,568	Latest vote total Biden: 77,279,336 Trump: 72,198,523 Margin: 5,080,813 https://cookpolitical.com/2020-natio...r-vote-tracker
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

11th November 2020, 10:53 AM	#854
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,732	Originally Posted by slyjoe Georgia hand recount is a poor approach. These things should be based on evidence. And assuming a hand recount is better than a machine recount is incorrect. ETA: I seem to remember someone having a signature to the effect "A man with a single watch knows what time it is, while a man with two watches is never sure." To be fair, a man with one watch is confident about the time, while a man with two watches is not. Not quite the same thing.

11th November 2020, 10:53 AM	#855
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,508	Originally Posted by phiwum Oh? Name a single prominent Democrat who gave any time to the pee tape allegations. Investigating Russian influence and Trump's willingness to accept it is not even close to Birtherism. Yeah, and the Russian interference in the 2016 elections is well documented for all who haven't decided not to look.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

11th November 2020, 10:54 AM	#856
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,473	Originally Posted by wareyin No. In 2016 Democrats were complaining about Russian interference, especially with regard to social media campaigns, wikileaks, and the like. And those complaints were found to be valid by the Republican led Senate panel that investigated To be fair, I did hear a lot of people crying about Russians hacking voter booths. However, no elected officials that I am aware of ever said that. It was just yammering on social media and the like.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?

11th November 2020, 10:55 AM	#857
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,588	Originally Posted by phiwum To be fair, a man with one watch is confident about the time, while a man with two watches is not. Not quite the same thing. Thanks - you are correct. I was going off the top of my head.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

11th November 2020, 10:58 AM	#858
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,732	Originally Posted by wareyin No. In 2016 Democrats were complaining about Russian interference, especially with regard to social media campaigns, wikileaks, and the like. And those complaints were found to be valid by the Republican led Senate panel that investigated I do think that Emily's Cat seems to be quite careful in parsing claims about Trump but quite footloose when describing the actions of Democrats. It does not result in a fair comparison and weakens her claim that both sides are driven by partisanship to similar degree.

11th November 2020, 11:01 AM	#859
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,761	Originally Posted by Paul2 In every case, it will come down to the Supreme Court, and Roberts and Gorsuch in particular, I think. If state legislatures try to install their hand-picked electors, the Dems will file suit and it will go to SCOTUS. Any Trump lawsuit will wind up at SCOTUS. While my stomach knots over the election clearly are not over as I thought they would be, which states are these that you think the legislators are interested in installing unfaithful electors? Because I've only heard from one (can't remember which one) and they insisted they are not about to overturn the vote in their states.

11th November 2020, 11:02 AM	#860
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,663	This is a great, slick, "economical burn" by Joe Biden. He's not actually saying explicitly what everyone knows he's talking about, and then lets you know that with that knowing laugh! That laugh just warms my heart. https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/s...nistrue.com%2F
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,663	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

11th November 2020, 11:03 AM	#861
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,663	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger While my stomach knots over the election clearly are not over as I thought they would be, which states are these that you think the legislators are interested in installing unfaithful electors? Because I've only heard from one (can't remember which one) and they insisted they are not about to overturn the vote in their states. I think that was PA, which is obviously crucial. Things can change. We need to hear the overweight female vocalizing. That it has to happen in multiple states greatly reduces its chances. You never know.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,663	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

11th November 2020, 11:07 AM	#862
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,680	Originally Posted by Paul2 For those (like me) who are paranoid about Trump stealing the election, here is some comfort that has some substance behind it, scroll to 2:55 when Jake Tapper mentions that he's been talking with Republicans: https://twitter.com/i/status/1326295478175211521 IMO America is divided, but far from broken. I don't think most Republicans would support actual shenanigans at this point, because the consequences would be dire. As has been suggested, they're playing a game hoping for an advantage in Georgia, and to protect themselves from Trump's deplorables. That being said, I'm tempted to take a break from this whole election debacle, but I'm still not sure I can look away.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

11th November 2020, 11:08 AM	#863
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,732	Originally Posted by slyjoe Thanks - you are correct. I was going off the top of my head. I think you got the saying correct. I just think that the saying is mistaken.

11th November 2020, 11:09 AM	#864
wareyin Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 8,561	Originally Posted by phiwum I do think that Emily's Cat seems to be quite careful in parsing claims about Trump but quite footloose when describing the actions of Democrats. It does not result in a fair comparison and weakens her claim that both sides are driven by partisanship to similar degree. In the current political climate, to see both sides as the same it basically requires people to always interpret Republicans in the best light possible while also interpreting Democrats in the worst light possible.

11th November 2020, 11:10 AM	#865
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,761	Originally Posted by Bob001 The Empire strikes back: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...id=mailsignout Replacing the heads of all those military departments with minions is very disturbing.

11th November 2020, 11:12 AM	#866
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,761	Originally Posted by The Don Sadly, at this stage I'm not 100% convinced that the election will be certified for Joe Biden. Could GOP Senators refuse to certify the election because there are outstanding lawsuits and ensuring that the electoral process is robust for the future is far more important than certifying a single President, in dubious circumstances, today ? Didn't you predict Trump would win the election? Now what, are you predicting a banana republic coup here?

11th November 2020, 11:14 AM	#867
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,465	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat And I'm sure that if Trump had won the EC vote, all of the democrats in the country would have just gone quietly without protests of any sort, right? Different actors, same play. But that's okay, I'm well aware of your deep partisanship. We don't need alt history. We need only look back to 2016. With smaller margins, Clinton conceded defeat right away. No law suits. No denial of privileges for transfer of power. No Dem senators refusing to refer to Trump as President Elect. Yet again, you're operating in counter-factual mode, riding a phony baloney centrist high horse.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

11th November 2020, 11:19 AM	#868
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,345	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Last I heard he refused to comment. ETA: So now he posted a video saying he did not recant. If WAPO has any evidence showing otherwise, I don't know. ETA: From the WAPO article: If they have the signed affidavit, that should be easy enough to present. As a general comment... "according to officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity" and similar vagaries tend to make me less than certain of what I'm reading.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

11th November 2020, 11:25 AM	#869
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,884	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Didn't you predict Trump would win the election? Now what, are you predicting a banana republic coup here? I think The Don's pessimism is a nice balance to the hopes and dreams most of us have. He was wrong about the election, and I bet he is happy about that. Well, as happy as he could get before realizing that this wasn't over and there was still some room to be pessimistic. But, I was also wrong about the election. I thought the win would be more decisive and that the Senate would follow suit. And yes, there is still a chance in GA for the senate to follow, so I will continue to be hopeful. We are all going to be wrong, one way or another. And in the end I will still appreciate the foggy wind that comes in from Don Manor, even if it mars my false hopes of a sunny day.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

11th November 2020, 11:30 AM	#870
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,587	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Didn't you predict Trump would win the election? Now what, are you predicting a banana republic coup here? I thought it likely that he would win the election and he closed the margin on the polls even more than I'd feared. I think it's more likely that having "lost" the election, he remains President. The means used will likely be legal, faithless electors, legal challenges and so on. It's not a coup, it's using legal levers of power to achieve their objectives, something the GOP have been doing for years since they realised that winning elections fair and square is very hard.

11th November 2020, 11:45 AM	#871
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,663	Originally Posted by eerok I don't think most Republicans would support actual shenanigans at this point, because the consequences would be dire. Dire consequences have not stopped them in the past, unless you mean dire consequences to their political career, but then it's not clear that any dire consequences would happen to Repubs, especially those in states or districts that went for Trump. Originally Posted by eerok As has been suggested, they're playing a game hoping for an advantage in Georgia, and to protect themselves from Trump's deplorables. This is not mutually exclusive with supporting shenanigans. Originally Posted by eerok That being said, I'm tempted to take a break from this whole election debacle, but I'm still not sure I can look away. I know what'cha mean.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,663	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

11th November 2020, 11:49 AM	#872
turingtest Mistral, mistral wind... Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi Posts: 4,733	Originally Posted by Paul2 I think that was PA, which is obviously crucial. Things can change. We need to hear the overweight female vocalizing. That it has to happen in multiple states greatly reduces its chances. You never know. Here is what is happening in PA. (Link is to Yahoo News story). Quote: Republicans in the Pennsylvania state legislature on Tuesday said they would take “extraordinary measures” to find out whether the election in their state was fair, despite having no evidence of any wrongdoing. State Rep. Dawn Keefer, a Republican from York County, announced that Republicans in the state legislature would move to conduct an audit of the election, and that the state should not certify the election results, or select electors to the Electoral College, until it is completed. “The General Assembly needs to take extraordinary measures to answer these extraordinary questions,” Keefer said while speaking in front of a group of a dozen or so House Republicans. But Keefer admitted that she and the Pennsylvania GOP do not have anything more than questions. There is no evidence of anything resembling coordinated cheating in the election. “We've just gotten a lot of allegations,” Keefer said, referring to what she said was a flurry of calls and e-mails from voters “who are concerned and outraged by the circumstances surrounding this election.” They have nothing but allegations and "concerned citizens" who have no other reason for thinking that their state's popular vote is in question except what Trump and the GOP has fed them. But, based on that, they want to take "extraordinary measures" to override the electoral system they themselves (the legislature's GOP majority) set up. Now, it's not likely that this will actually come to anything- as the article explains, it's the state's governor who "appoints electors, in accordance with the state’s popular vote returns." And that governor is a Democrat. But it's the mindset here that is concerning- the way this body of government seems so willing to just set aside a popular vote (that, as of now, has Biden up by a little under 50,000, with votes yet to count), for no other reason than that they don't like the results. And this is from the party that ostensibly wants the voter to have confidence in the integrity of their electoral process...while they're exploring avenues that will let them just set aside what those voters in that process have said. I haven't been too concerned about Trump and his GOP enablers actually being able to bully their way to a win- and I'm still not overly concerned. But there's a scenario still in play here that's not an impossible one. If they somehow succeed in their "extraordinary measures" in PA, then, via recount, erase Biden's current 14,000 vote lead in GA, then all they need is AZ (where Biden's lead has shrunk to just under 13,000) and hanky-pank NV somehow to overcome or erase Biden's 36,000 vote lead there. Bam- by my math, with AK called today, that gives Trump 270 EC votes. All very unlikely; but then, it's not that long ago when I would have thought that one of America's two major political parties even considering this sort of ******* was unlikely.
	__________________ I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King

11th November 2020, 11:59 AM	#873
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 6,783	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Even engineers and educators and other professionals apparently able to apply critical thinking skills in other areas can allow their critical thinking skills to be overpowered by their emotional and psychological needs. Understood. But I think that lends support to my case that labeling them as “morons” is simplistic.

11th November 2020, 12:04 PM	#874
turingtest Mistral, mistral wind... Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi Posts: 4,733	Originally Posted by varwoche We don't need alt history. We need only look back to 2016. With smaller margins, Clinton conceded defeat right away. No law suits. No denial of privileges for transfer of power. No Dem senators refusing to refer to Trump as President Elect. Yet again, you're operating in counter-factual mode, riding a phony baloney centrist high horse. Along those same lines...EC asked (a few pages ago) for a direct quote of Trump saying that he would only accept the election's result if he won.* I have to ask- why do we need him saying he would only accept the result if he won when he's here now refusing to accept the results because he didn't? *And, as a matter of fact, he did say just just that in 2016 (link is to contemporaneous NPR article). Quote: "Ladies and gentleman I want to make a major announcement today," Trump said, continuing, "I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters, and to all of the people of the United States, that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election ..." But there was more. Trump then finished that sentence with, "if I win," seemingly admitting a strange logic: that a system rigged against him would be totally acceptable if that rigging ultimately worked out in his favor. I suppose that could have been a stab at humor from a man not notable for any visible sense of humor; but I'll just quote one of our posters here (Mumbles, I think)- "when someone tells you who they are, believe them." Again, I see no reason to think that someone who has said he will only accept a win, and then refuses to accept a loss, is entitled to any presumption that he's not exactly who he says he is by both word and action.
	__________________ I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King

11th November 2020, 12:06 PM	#875
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 15,345	Originally Posted by phiwum There may well have been large protests had Trump won. I don't believe Democratic leadership would claim the election was utterly fraudulent. That's a big difference that you can't pretend not to notice. I'm not so certain. They may not have claimed it to be fraudulent, but I give it good odds that they would be challenging the votes in pretty much the same way in any state that was close. It's a difference in tactic, not in strategy.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.