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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , joe biden

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Old 11th November 2020, 12:14 PM   #881
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I do think that Emily's Cat seems to be quite careful in parsing claims about Trump but quite footloose when describing the actions of Democrats. It does not result in a fair comparison and weakens her claim that both sides are driven by partisanship to similar degree.
I thought I was pretty footloose about both of them.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:14 PM   #882
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
As a general comment... "according to officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity" and similar vagaries tend to make me less than certain of what I'm reading.
The statement appeared on the official government Twitter account of the House Oversight Committee.

If you had the slightest interest in learning the truth, you would already know this.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:15 PM   #883
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
They will be recounting the presidential race and all other offices on these ballots I assume?
Because if ballot counting was wrong it's wrong for all seats on that ballot right?
I got the impression it was just the top of the ticket.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:17 PM   #884
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
They made a large enough claim about it to prompt an investigation of it.
The claim of Russian interference came from and was verified by the intelligence community and the investigation into it was initiated by Republicans.

You’re just embarrassing yourself now.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:22 PM   #885
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
In the current political climate, to see both sides as the same it basically requires people to always interpret Republicans in the best light possible while also interpreting Democrats in the worst light possible.
Not exactly. It requires that when one is presented with whitewashed interpretations of one of the parties, one make an effort to evaluate a more nefarious possible interpretation than is being shown. And if one is presented with a malicious interpretation of one of the parties, one make an effort to evaluate a more benign possible interpretation than is being shown.

The challenge here is that ISF is generally left-leaning, which is fine overall. But the claim to skepticism seems to get pocketed when it comes to politics. Democrats' are consistently presented by the vast bulk of posters in a whitewashed light, and Republicans in a malicious light.

This tendency has been present for as long as I've been a member here, and probably long before that. But it has become significantly stronger since 2016.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:24 PM   #886
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
We don't need alt history. We need only look back to 2016. With smaller margins, Clinton conceded defeat right away. No law suits. No denial of privileges for transfer of power. No Dem senators refusing to refer to Trump as President Elect.

Yet again, you're operating in counter-factual mode, riding a phony baloney centrist high horse.
Clinton conceded, yes. As an individual. Because even though I dislike her as a person, she's a lot smarter than Trump and a hell of a lot less of a blowhard. But also because the margins in key states were larger than they are in this election.

But there were multiple protests and marches from democrats opposed to Trump taking office.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:25 PM   #887
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Unfortunately, if they uncover a few isolated, statistically insignificant accusations of fraud with any merit, a mountain of utter ******** heaped up beside it will be both implied to be, and inferred to be, just as valid.
This is already being done. Fox News talking heads and other alt-right sources are using said incidents to mislead their cultists.

Meanwhile the non-cultists have a different opinion.

The Hill: Poll: Nearly 8 in 10 Americans say Biden won, despite Trump refusing to concede
Quote:
according to a Reuers/Ipsos poll released Tuesday.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:26 PM   #888
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Here is what is happening in PA. (Link is to Yahoo News story).



They have nothing but allegations and "concerned citizens" who have no other reason for thinking that their state's popular vote is in question except what Trump and the GOP has fed them. But, based on that, they want to take "extraordinary measures" to override the electoral system they themselves (the legislature's GOP majority) set up.

Now, it's not likely that this will actually come to anything- as the article explains, it's the state's governor who "appoints electors, in accordance with the state’s popular vote returns." And that governor is a Democrat. But it's the mindset here that is concerning- the way this body of government seems so willing to just set aside a popular vote (that, as of now, has Biden up by a little under 50,000, with votes yet to count), for no other reason than that they don't like the results. And this is from the party that ostensibly wants the voter to have confidence in the integrity of their electoral process...while they're exploring avenues that will let them just set aside what those voters in that process have said.

I haven't been too concerned about Trump and his GOP enablers actually being able to bully their way to a win- and I'm still not overly concerned. But there's a scenario still in play here that's not an impossible one. If they somehow succeed in their "extraordinary measures" in PA, then, via recount, erase Biden's current 14,000 vote lead in GA, then all they need is AZ (where Biden's lead has shrunk to just under 13,000) and hanky-pank NV somehow to overcome or erase Biden's 36,000 vote lead there. Bam- by my math, with AK called today, that gives Trump 270 EC votes.

All very unlikely; but then, it's not that long ago when I would have thought that one of America's two major political parties even considering this sort of ******* was unlikely.
i cant imagine a scenario in which that happens, though, at the state level, given the Dem. governor.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:26 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Many people are still firmly convinced that Trump had direct coordinated activity with Russia in order to steal the 2016 election, and that the pee tapes are real.

People believe whatever they need to believe in order to assuage their emotional distress. And at this point, politics in the US is not at all about logic or reason, it's almost entirely about emotions. It's not identity politics anymore, it's political identity.
More false equivalence.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:27 PM   #890
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Not exactly. It requires that when one is presented with whitewashed interpretations of one of the parties, one make an effort to evaluate a more nefarious possible interpretation than is being shown. And if one is presented with a malicious interpretation of one of the parties, one make an effort to evaluate a more benign possible interpretation than is being shown.

The challenge here is that ISF is generally left-leaning, which is fine overall. But the claim to skepticism seems to get pocketed when it comes to politics. Democrats' are consistently presented by the vast bulk of posters in a whitewashed light, and Republicans in a malicious light.

This tendency has been present for as long as I've been a member here, and probably long before that. But it has become significantly stronger since 2016.
A lecture about skepticism from someone who a short while ago claimed that the investigation in Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election originated with and was coordinated by Democrats as a means to dispute the results.

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Old 11th November 2020, 12:27 PM   #891
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm not so certain. They may not have claimed it to be fraudulent, but I give it good odds that they would be challenging the votes in pretty much the same way in any state that was close. It's a difference in tactic, not in strategy.
I don't understand. The margins in 2016 were smaller than the margins this year, and Democrats didn't challenge the votes then.

I'm not sure what you are giving odds on.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:27 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Your lame bothsidesism continues to be unimpressive and unconvincing.
Your lame ad hominems and personal attacks continue to lack reason and logic.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:29 PM   #893
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't understand. The margins in 2016 were smaller than the margins this year, and Democrats didn't challenge the votes then.

I'm not sure what you are giving odds on.
A look at EC's body of work might shed light on EC's current posts.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:29 PM   #894
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm not so certain. They may not have claimed it to be fraudulent, but I give it good odds that they would be challenging the votes in pretty much the same way in any state that was close. It's a difference in tactic, not in strategy.
Just an idea: instead of the bothsidesism, you could actually look at what happened in 2016, when several states were very close.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:30 PM   #895
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Clinton conceded, yes. As an individual. Because even though I dislike her as a person, she's a lot smarter than Trump and a hell of a lot less of a blowhard. But also because the margins in key states were larger than they are in this election.

But there were multiple protests and marches from democrats opposed to Trump taking office.
Yes, the thing we’re specifically talking about didn’t occur, but this totally different other thing did!
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:30 PM   #896
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The statement appeared on the official government Twitter account of the House Oversight Committee.
Stacyhs didn't provide a link, she only mentioned a WAPO article and provided a quote.

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
If you had the slightest interest in learning the truth, you would already know this.
Please stop these incessant insinuations. They are nothing more than personal attacks.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:30 PM   #897
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
But also because the margins in key states were larger than they are in this election.
There's the error. They aren't.

Things seem closer this year because it took so much longer to count, and because the lead changed hands in several swing states. In fact, they aren't even done counting the first time, but in fact the margins are larger this time.


(Now I have to go look that up to be sure I'm right.....)
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:30 PM   #898
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Even engineers and educators and other professionals apparently able to apply critical thinking skills in other areas can allow their critical thinking skills to be overpowered by their emotional and psychological needs.
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Understood. But I think that lends support to my case that labeling them as “morons” is simplistic.
Eddie is right. Labeling people as morons that are locked into confirmation bias is a mistake. Read "The Believing Brain"

All of have us have biases. We can train ourselves to overcome some of them, but we will never eliminate all of them. The best example of that IMV is Albert Einstein's reluctance to accept Quantum Physics. Even when he finally conceded that this theory had merit, he did so in language that showed his doubt.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:34 PM   #899
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Your lame ad hominems and personal attacks continue to lack reason and logic.
Pretty much everyone is explaining to you why you’re wrong and why no one buys your pretense of being politically neutral.

Playing the victim isn’t a particularly compelling response.

Try making better, less disingenuous arguments that actually align with facts and reality.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:35 PM   #900
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Stacyhs didn't provide a link, she only mentioned a WAPO article and provided a quote.
Luckily, you don’t let something like ignorance of the facts prevent you from forming an opinion.

Quote:
Please stop these incessant insinuations. They are nothing more than personal attacks.
Please make less terrible arguments.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:36 PM   #901
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We see here the successful divisionism of the Trump regime. Most here are anti-trump, but are bickering amongst themselves. As Julius Caesar said: Divide and concur.

Hans
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:37 PM   #902
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Clinton conceded, yes. As an individual. Because even though I dislike her as a person, she's a lot smarter than Trump and a hell of a lot less of a blowhard. But also because the margins in key states were larger than they are in this election.

But there were multiple protests and marches from democrats opposed to Trump taking office.
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There's the error. They aren't.

Things seem closer this year because it took so much longer to count, and because the lead changed hands in several swing states. In fact, they aren't even done counting the first time, but in fact the margins are larger this time.


(Now I have to go look that up to be sure I'm right.....)
You're right. I went over that yesterday. The magins are bigger in

Pennsylvania
Wisconsin
Michigan

Not to mention

Washington
Oregon
California

And that's when I stopped checking. EC's argument has ZERO merit. It is TOTALLY FALSE.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:37 PM   #903
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
And I'm sure that if Trump had won the EC vote, all of the democrats in the country would have just gone quietly without protests of any sort, right?

Different actors, same play.

But that's okay, I'm well aware of your deep partisanship.
And this false equivalence tops them all.

First, had Trump won, the Democrats would not have a POTUS in the office for two more months.

Second, Biden, should he have lost, is not a pathological narcissist.
Trump is incapable of admitting he lost. And I do mean literally.
No one can tell him he's lost. It's going to take an intervention to get him to walk away mumbling under his breath.
He's already replacing the heads of all the military agencies that might escort him from the office.
There are other darker possibilities he might have for this move.
None of this is what the Democrats would do had Trump won. We already know what the Democrats did when Trump won in 2016: they marched all over the world in protest.

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Old 11th November 2020, 12:43 PM   #904
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Bah, the Mueller report concluded that the campaign wasn't smart enough to actually coordinate with the Russians, no matter how much they wanted to.

I have no problem believing that.

Of course, it doesn't mean the Russians weren't involved on their own.
Just to be clear here, people at the top level of Trump's campaign did indeed coordinate with Russia. And it's highly unlikely Trump didn't know this was going on. Then there was Trump's publicly asking Russia to find Clinton's emails. While that might not have been direct coordination with Russia, it made it clear his campaign was free to interact.

But that's all hashed out in another thread.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:46 PM   #905
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Clinton conceded, yes. As an individual. Because even though I dislike her as a person, she's a lot smarter than Trump and a hell of a lot less of a blowhard. But also because the margins in key states were larger than they are in this election.

But there were multiple protests and marches from democrats opposed to Trump taking office.
The entire Dem establishment conceded. You distort the facts with every sentence you write.

I assume you're now aware this is false.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:46 PM   #906
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't understand. The margins in 2016 were smaller than the margins this year, and Democrats didn't challenge the votes then.

I'm not sure what you are giving odds on.
I was under the impression that the margins in key states were not as close, and in aggregate not enough to have altered the electoral outcome?

I was giving "odds" that if the margins were close enough in enough states to have altered the outcome of the election in 2016, Clinton would likely have challenged those state counts. It would have been reasonable to do so.

Not that Trump is reasonable. Just that it's not exactly a shock nor is it irrational to challenge the vote counts when there is the appearance of a potentially different outcome.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:49 PM   #907
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I was under the impression that the margins in key states were not as close, and in aggregate not enough to have altered the electoral outcome?
Now would be a good time to admit your mistake and apologize for spreading falsehoods.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:49 PM   #908
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There's the error. They aren't.

Things seem closer this year because it took so much longer to count, and because the lead changed hands in several swing states. In fact, they aren't even done counting the first time, but in fact the margins are larger this time.


(Now I have to go look that up to be sure I'm right.....)
I'll have to go play with the numbers. Some of it might very well be timing and the flipping of states throwing me off. But I also thought that the aggregate electoral votes from close states wouldn't have been enough for Clinton to win it.

And like I said, Clinton is more sensible than Trump. I think the insane woodpecker that keeps trying to drill through the metal top on my chimney is more sensible than Trump, to be honest.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:52 PM   #909
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This Election ISN'T CLOSE. The counting continues and Biden's margin of victory keeps growing.

JOE BIDEN: 77,383,920

D TRUMP: 72,274,587


MARGIN OF VICTORY 5,109,333
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:55 PM   #910
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5109333 illegal votes!!
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:56 PM   #911
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
5109333 illegal votes!!
5109334, actually.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:57 PM   #912
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I was under the impression that the margins in key states were not as close, and in aggregate not enough to have altered the electoral outcome?
No, that's not the case. The margins in 2016 were smaller than this year's margins.

As I said, it seems smaller this year because we had to wait so long for them, and because the lead switched hands. We didn't know who would end up on top for a long time. We still don't in Arizona.

But Michigan in 2016 was closer than Georgia in 2020. Wisconsin and Pennsylvania were comparable, but Biden's margins were larger than Trump's. And that leave Nevada and Arizona that are still counting.
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Old 11th November 2020, 12:57 PM   #913
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I was on board with the same logic: Let him have his temper tantrum, Biden can get everything lined up with or without Trump's assistance. That's why we hired the adult this time.

Then I saw a talking head reference the 9/11 Commission and I was a bit unsettled. I can't find the talking head I was watching, but here is a CNN article that makes the same reference:

That is the sort of thing that makes me less comfortable with letting the temper tantrum linger.
No. When Bush came to power he tossed out all the Clinton admin information and work that included info on Bin Laden like Trump's action but on a much smaller scale. Bush refused to listen to Richard Clarke who had served for 30 years under both Democratic and Republican administrations ending as the head of counter-terrorism.

Clarke is the one who disclosed the PDB "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the US" that was received before 9-11.

Blaming any of that on a delayed start to taking office is rewriting history.

Bush threw out everything Clinton the way Trump threw out everything Obama.

This has been discussed ad nauseum in prior threads.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 11th November 2020 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 11th November 2020, 01:01 PM   #914
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I was giving "odds" that if the margins were close enough in enough states to have altered the outcome of the election in 2016, Clinton would likely have challenged those state counts. It would have been reasonable to do so.
.
Why the what-ifs, when there are concise, easily accessible accounts of what actually happened?
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Old 11th November 2020, 01:03 PM   #915
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
5109333 illegal votes!!
Yes. Just think of the logistics pulling this off would require. Not to mention of easy it should be to spot, once you started looking for it.

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Old 11th November 2020, 01:04 PM   #916
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This Election ISN'T CLOSE. The counting continues and Biden's margin of victory keeps growing.

JOE BIDEN: 77,383,920

D TRUMP: 72,274,587


MARGIN OF VICTORY 5,109,333
Er, can you repeat that. I can't quite see it.
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Old 11th November 2020, 01:05 PM   #917
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Trump is installing loyalists in the Pentagon.
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Old 11th November 2020, 01:06 PM   #918
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
For those (like me) who are paranoid about Trump stealing the election, here is some comfort that has some substance behind it, scroll to 2:55 when Jake Tapper mentions that he's been talking with Republicans:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1326295478175211521
My impression: one faction of GOP legislators is enabling Trump and one faction believes they are 'gently' getting Trump to recognize reality.
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Old 11th November 2020, 01:12 PM   #919
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Minor sidenote. CNN has officially called Alaska for Trump.
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Old 11th November 2020, 01:13 PM   #920
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
5109334, actually.
1 more Biden vote come in?
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