Continuation 2020 Presidential Election part 3

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

The trump PA lawsuit filed in federal court today argues mail in voting violates equal protection, and the PA election officials should be barred from certifying the election.

Oh, good gravy. It appears his argument is that mail votes violate the equal protection clause because they cause people to distrust the election results because Trump has spent months telling people to distrust the mail votes and election results.

It is an 86 page filing!

What a frivolous Gish gallop.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

Yep. According to Trumps' Officail Election Defense Fund:



For any donation, 40% goes to the RNC. The other 60% goes to Trump's campaign debt, and only goes toward paying for a recount if the debt is first paid off.

Trump says he will be holding rallies to gain support for a recount. The only purpose of such rallies would be to get donations. People will donate thinking their money will be spent on a recount, but it will be spent paying the campaign debt so that Trump doesn't have to pay it.

Trump is playing golf because he has no idea what to do other sic some lawyers out to do...something...and drag this out to con his supporters out of more cash.

Just when you think he can't go any lower....

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

Oh, good gravy. It appears his argument is that mail votes violate the equal protection clause because they cause people to distrust the election results because Trump has spent months telling people to distrust the mail votes and election results.

It is an 86 page filing!

What a frivolous Gish gallop.

Huh? Almost EVERY single state has mail in votes. How could that violate the Equal Protection clause? That is a bizarre argument.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Huh? Almost EVERY single state has mail in votes. How could that violate the Equal Protection clause? That is a bizarre argument.

Ever read Bush v. Gore? Sometimes, bizarre arguments work......although I think this one is a fair bit beyond that one, under circumstances less likely to win as well.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Paul2

while I yield to no one in my paranoia about the election might still be stolen, the presumed lack of evidence of fraud significant enough to change an outcome in a state is a barrier that can’t be overcome, I think. This is probably just Riling up the base, akin to the investigations that go nowhere. I hope.

Trump fantasizing that he won, he couldn't have lost, is feeding the flames. It soothes his worried mind to have that fantasy echoed back at him.

[crescent]

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

Oh, good gravy. It appears his argument is that mail votes violate the equal protection clause because they cause people to distrust the election results because Trump has spent months telling people to distrust the mail votes and election results.

It is an 86 page filing!

What a frivolous Gish gallop.

This whole thing is just an endless Gish gallop. On a loop. Every accusation, or strange thing, statistical anomaly, they all get explained. But not fast enough.

Somehow, the fact that all the earlier things have been debunked, it never makes the Trump supporters skeptical of the next batch of Gish that comes along.

[timhau]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

I wonder if it’s as irritating as your habit of scolding people from your disingenuously assumed position of the reasonable middle?

If one side claims Bigfoot is real and the other side claims it isn't, surely the reasonable position is that there is a size-10 bipedal ape roaming the North American wilderness.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

trump Tweets

This is good news, it means I won!
cc: @RepDougCollins @SecretarySonny
Quote Tweet

Brian Kemp
@BrianKempGA
Georgia's election result will include legally cast ballots - and ONLY legally cast ballots. Period.

[Delvo]

I don't think the Four Seasons thing was a mistake. I think it was a miserable underling lashing out at terrible bosses.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

Ken Starr: Pennsylvania Ballot Extension 'Constitutional Travesty'
The disputed Pennsylvania ballot extension forced by state courts over the legislature is a "constitutional travesty," according to famed prosecutor Ken Starr."
newsmax.com

Wasn't it the other way around? [too tired to check]

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Delvo

I don't think the Four Seasons thing was a mistake. I think it was a miserable underling lashing out at terrible bosses.

On their website you can buy a mask with "Lawn and Order" and "Make America Rake Again".

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

The @US_FDA and the Democrats didn’t want to have me get a Vaccine WIN, prior to the election, so instead it came out five days later – As I’ve said all along!

I posted something like this somewhere, Trump would claim it was a Big Pharma CT.

Yep, I said it here.

Next comes the Tweet that the vaccine manufacturers owe him because of all the money he gave them (Trump always believes it's his money).

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I think they are. But they must be separated. In other words, the court reserves the right to revoke them and readjust the count. The judge sort of punted.

And the ballots were held out before the judge told them to do it.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Ever read Bush v. Gore? Sometimes, bizarre arguments work......although I think this one is a fair bit beyond that one, under circumstances less likely to win as well.

Bush v Gore was an abomination. That said, the optics were on their side. I remember very well the recounting of the ballots and three people looking at ballots up to the light. It added the words "hanging chad" to our lexicon. It was also a court case to stop a recount that would overturn an election where the popular vote contest was close.

This ain't that. In this case all 4 networks called it for Biden. He has a 4+ million vote margin. Trump is trying to overturn the results in 4 states and the arguments are far more ridiculous than Bush v Gore.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

And the ballots were held out before the judge told them to do it.

I've been informed of that. See further down the thread.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Delvo

I'm not convinced Trump is seriously still trying to "win". It looks like what he'd be doing if it were another of his scams: pretend to need to do a bunch of lawsuits, raise money to pay for them because he's not actually the mountain of money he's supposed to be, keep the money. The main reason to doubt this is the reports that people in the White House have been describing him as reacting like his denial is real and they can't get him to acknowledge reality. I suppose it could be both: he thinks he has a real case and he (or someone else working for him) is just taking advantage of the situation anyway.

Pretty much it's his mental disorder causing the denial and the rest follows.

[BobTheCoward]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Huh? Almost EVERY single state has mail in votes. How could that violate the Equal Protection clause? That is a bizarre argument.

The two different methods receive different levels of scrutiny. For example, you have to show an ID in person but a signature is acceptable on a mail in in the same state.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

The two different methods receive different levels of scrutiny. For example, you have to show an ID in person but a signature is acceptable on a mail in in the same state.

This is also true in pretty much every state.

[BobTheCoward]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

This is also true in pretty much every state.

Yes.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Bush v Gore was an abomination. That said, the optics were on their side. I remember very well the recounting of the ballots and three people looking at ballots up to the light. It added the words "hanging chad" to our lexicon. It was also a court case to stop a recount that would overturn an election where the popular vote contest was close.

This ain't that. In this case all 4 networks called it for Biden. He has a 4+ million vote margin. Trump is trying to overturn the results in 4 states and the arguments are far more ridiculous than Bush v Gore.

IIRC (no guarantee these days) the biggest mistake Gore made was not asking for a statewide recount. The details are fuzzy.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Yes.

I get the argument rationale. It makes a tiny bit of sense. But it is weak. And what could be the remedy? Throwing out millions of votes made with honest intent?

You might as well tell the court "please destroy democracy"

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

IIRC (no guarantee these days) the biggest mistake Gore made was not asking for a statewide recount. The details are fuzzy.

See below

Quote:

Most of the post-electoral controversy revolved around Gore's request for hand recounts in four counties (Broward, Miami Dade, Palm Beach, and Volusia), as provided under Florida state law. Harris, who also co-chaired Bush's Florida campaign, announced she would reject any revised totals from those counties if they were not turned in by 5 p.m. on November 14, the statutory deadline for amended returns. The Florida Supreme Court extended the deadline to November 26, a decision later vacated by the U.S. Supreme Court. Miami-Dade eventually halted its recount and resubmitted its original total to the state canvassing board, while Palm Beach County failed to meet the extended deadline, turning in its completed recount results at 7 p.m., which Harris rejected. On November 26, the state canvassing board certified Bush as the winner of Florida's electors by 537 votes. Gore formally contested the certified results. A state court decision overruling Gore was reversed by the Florida Supreme Court, which ordered a recount of over 70,000 ballots previously rejected as undervotes by machine counters. The U.S. Supreme Court halted that order the next day, with Justice Scalia issuing a concurring opinion that "the counting of votes that are of questionable legality does in my view threaten irreparable harm to petitioner" (Bush).[48]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000...ntial_election

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Where's he going?

Out into the deep forests, to frolick and play among the bunnies and out wrestle bears, while teaching all their progeny to never trust any outsiders on anything.


A little more seriously, it looks like it's a call to sink deeper into the right-wing bubble.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Huh? Almost EVERY single state has mail in votes. How could that violate the Equal Protection clause? That is a bizarre argument.

I have read most of the filings and court opinion in these election lawsuits (although I have got a bit behind). I'm not reading an 86 page filing.

I would hazard a guess that it is related to the totality of the complaints Trump and his supporters have raised concerning elections in Pennsylvania: extended receipt date, signature matching, wide spread use of mail in voting, no decision on election day, delays in counting ballots, red mirage and blue shift, poll watchers, ballot counting watchers, etc. At 86 pages it probably rehashes all of these things in great detail.

The argument would be that people who voted in person at the polls are disenfranchised under the equal protection clause because they cast votes that they feel may be invalidated by the mismanagement of the mail ballots.

Of course, this argument fails for a number of reasons.

First, there is no evidence of mismanagement, only claims of mismanagement.

Second, people are not disenfranchised just because they feel that they are disenfranchised when that are not in fact disenfranchised (at least in this case).

Third, the only reason some people may feel disenfranchised due to distrust of the mail votes is because of the words and actions of Trump and his supporters. If Trump had not raised these meritless claims about mail ballots, they would not have felt this distrust.

Fourth, there is equal protection. Both Democrats and Republicans (and everybody) have the right to vote by either method.

Finally, if anyone is disenfranchised under the equal protection clause it is not the people who cast ballots at the polls but the people who cast the mail ballots or wanted to cast mail ballots. I wanted to vote my mail this year because it would be safer. I did not because there was controversy and lawsuits here that led me to suspect that a vote by mail may not be counted. I chose to vote in person because of my distrust. The distrust created by Trump that deprived me of the confidence that my legal vote by mail may not be counted.

They are really scaping the sludge on the bottom of the barrel here.

[The Great Zaganza]

I hope we will learn the exact amount of Wealth Transfer from gullible supporters to Trump in the last five years.
Trickle-Up works!

[Pixel42]

Seen elsewhere:

"This feels like a horror movie where the monster just died, but there's still 20 minutes left of the runtime".

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Seen elsewhere:

"This feels like a horror movie where the monster just died, but there's still 20 minutes left of the runtime".

To poke at a couple moves by the GOP -

Quote:

Georgia's two Republican U.S. Senators are calling on the Republican Secretary of State to resign because they believe - without evidence - that he "failed to deliver honest and transparent elections."

The GA governor is joining in on that, too.

As a general reaction on MSNBC -

Quote:

"This is exactly what my wife and I saw when we were correspondents in Russia, regimes that would put forward assertions without any evidence, and then the evidence would somehow follow it up... I don't think that will happen in this case..." - @peterbakernyt
w/ @NicolleDWallace

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Trump fantasizing that he won, he couldn't have lost, is feeding the flames. It soothes his worried mind to have that fantasy echoed back at him.

I don't think it will soothe his mind for long - because he's insatiable. Wouldn't he need escalating hits of reassurance? He gets validation when his usual cadre of Senate allies feed his ego, going along with the narrative he's spinning. But he'll also be dragged down if he gets anything less that perfect support. He attacked Fox News/WSJ in one tweet, saying they had interfered in the election, and Fox cut away from a Kayleigh McEnany press conference because her allegations should not be run without evidence to back them up. Boris Johnson is ready to ditch him.

ETA: He'll see traitors everywhere, and where does that leave him? He's probably already planning rallies to give him a boost he desperately needs - and even that won't last, because nothing is ever enough. He's at risk for a serious collision with reality and subsequent letdown.

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by Aridas

As a general reaction on MSNBC -

Quote:

"This is exactly what my wife and I saw when we were correspondents in Russia, regimes that would put forward assertions without any evidence, and then the evidence would somehow follow it up... I don't think that will happen in this case..." - @peterbakernyt
w/ @NicolleDWallace

I wonder if his campaign is being advised on tactics to further foment distrust in election proceedings. This is a Putin wet dream, maybe better than a Trump victory.

Hopefully we'll see a tipping point soon, in the next few days. It's going to be a long 2 months. I can't believe the impeachment drama was only what, 10 months ago?

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Huh? Almost EVERY single state has mail in votes. How could that violate the Equal Protection clause? That is a bizarre argument.

Does it matter that no one AFAIK has ever raised this argument until now?

I wonder if the Biden camp will look for places where similar arguments could be made on the Dems' behalf. Such as, Trump contributed to a great deal of anxiety about whether mail-in ballots would be thrown in the trash; does that violate equal protection?

Also I wonder if databases could be hacked to throw election results in into disarray. As I tried to track my ballot at one point I got a result saying I wasn't registered! I tried it a different way and was told my ballot had been received and counted. Paranoia, probably, but it got me to thinking - if someone could get in and change registration status, it could invalidate some votes. For a few anxious minutes I feared that something fishy was going on. I ended up using about 4 different websites to finally ascertain my status. It was quite unsettling.

[BobTheCoward]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

See below

What was the justification for the state court extending the deadline? That does seem like a weird choice given that a deadline was established by statute.

[TofuFighter]

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

They are really scraping the sludge on the bottom of the barrel here.

Thanks for the hard work and insights.

I looked at trump's campaign website yesterday and posted the info on 60%/40% allocation of donations to current debts and RNC coffers as you did a bit earlier.

I'm becoming more convinced that these legal challenges are not meant, by trump, to have any effect on results. They're designed to keep the temperature up among his supporters, thereby raising more donations to settle debts, line pockets, and amplify trump's reasons for continued rallies and whatever money-making scam he comes up with in the aftermath of his presidential failure.

All of this is just conjecture on my part. When it comes to the crunch, ie. the casino is failing, the project is falling apart, the university is coming undone, the meat is going rotten - trump's go-to move is to scratch whatever he can from the failure for himself, and to hell with anyone left holding the bag. Everything he does needs to be viewed through the lens of how it will benefit him. It seems highly unlikely to me that anyone will have advised him that these legal challenges to the election results have much prospect of success. I'd say he knows that well enough. He's using them for other reasons.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally Posted by Aridas

Quote:

Georgia's two Republican U.S. Senators are calling on the Republican Secretary of State to resign because they believe - without evidence - that he "failed to deliver honest and transparent elections."

The GA governor is joining in on that, too.

Therefore, in keeping with the evident true will of the people, the great state of Georgia will be sending to the Electoral College next month electors pledged to President Donald Trump.

[Meridian]

This:

Quote:

Georgia's two Republican U.S. Senators are calling on the Republican Secretary of State to resign because they believe - without evidence - that he "failed to deliver honest and transparent elections."

seems unwise to me. They are both facing run-off elections in January, which may well determine control of the senate. Telling the voters "we don't accept the result of your vote" while the voters are still considering whether to elect them seems like something that could backfire badly! At least it seems to be something that could be used effectively in campaigning to get people to turn out to vote against them (again).

[carlosy]

Originally Posted by TofuFighter

Thanks for the hard work and insights.

I looked at trump's campaign website yesterday and posted the info on 60%/40% allocation of donations to current debts and RNC coffers as you did a bit earlier.

I'm becoming more convinced that these legal challenges are not meant, by trump, to have any effect on results. They're designed to keep the temperature up among his supporters, thereby raising more donations to settle debts, line pockets, and amplify trump's reasons for continued rallies and whatever money-making scam he comes up with in the aftermath of his presidential failure.

There, proof of his genius!

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

Therefore, in keeping with the evident true will of the people, the great state of Georgia will be sending to the Electoral College next month electors pledged to President Donald Trump.

Which could drive D turnout for the Senate runoffs.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

The @US_FDA and the Democrats didn’t want to have me get a Vaccine WIN, prior to the election, so instead it came out five days later – As I’ve said all along!

I'm lovin' it.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Delvo

I'm not convinced Trump is seriously still trying to "win". It looks like what he'd be doing if it were another of his scams: pretend to need to do a bunch of lawsuits, raise money to pay for them because he's not actually the mountain of money he's supposed to be, keep the money. The main reason to doubt this is the reports that people in the White House have been describing him as reacting like his denial is real and they can't get him to acknowledge reality. I suppose it could be both: he thinks he has a real case and he (or someone else working for him) is just taking advantage of the situation anyway.

My take is that when he saw his large early leads of 300,000 plus, he had a massive surge of adrenaline and really thought it would stay that way.

His STOP THE COUNT! was a major panic attack of the Help! I'm drowning! Someone save me! Where are my minions and lackies?! Bring me a cavalcade so I can go out and meet the crowds of my supporters!!! Do it now!!!

He just can't believe people have voted for Sleepy Joe and Socialist Harris. It is just not possible.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Seen elsewhere:

"This feels like a horror movie where the monster just died, but there's still 20 minutes left of the runtime".

Ah, but remember in Carrie after she drowned in the bath. She suddenly sprang up again.

Or Nightmare on Elm Street when just as you thought the bogeyman was dead, out popped Freddie Krueger from the wardrobe.

Horror movies are a metaphor for death: it cannot be escaped. Trump thinks he can escape the calamity of getting fewer votes than Biden, as he did against Hillary in 2016, but Kamala will keep jumping out of the bath and Joe will spring out of the wardrobe, even though he thought he had got Geoff to tightly nail it with a few planks.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I don't think it will soothe his mind for long - because he's insatiable. Wouldn't he need escalating hits of reassurance? He gets validation when his usual cadre of Senate allies feed his ego, going along with the narrative he's spinning. But he'll also be dragged down if he gets anything less that perfect support. He attacked Fox News/WSJ in one tweet, saying they had interfered in the election, and Fox cut away from a Kayleigh McEnany press conference because her allegations should not be run without evidence to back them up. Boris Johnson is ready to ditch him.

ETA: He'll see traitors everywhere, and where does that leave him? He's probably already planning rallies to give him a boost he desperately needs - and even that won't last, because nothing is ever enough. He's at risk for a serious collision with reality and subsequent letdown.

I felt so sorry of Kayleigh. All those hours spent getting her hair done and plastering on her make-up and getting the false eye lashes to stick on straight...and she was cruelly cut off by that horrid FOX presenter. Like spending days preparing a party and nobody turning up. She could do a Bad Moms and go out on the p!ss with her mates.