Trump's Coup d'état.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by erwinl

It's attitudes like this, that is causing democracy in the US to collapse.

I think you may have misunderstood cosmicaug, who was simply making a little joke. The link to the cartoon may give context.

[JoeMorgue]

Trump's such an anomaly I question the assumption that even a coup with him is going to follow historical trends.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

It's pretty much unimaginable to me that he won't. Even if he remains President.

I don't doubt that he'll try to run again, but I doubt he'd win the Republican primary next time. He's just too messy, and there are too many others who could rise up to capitalize on the damage he's done. As for Trump remaining president, I don't see that happening at all. America is divided, but it's not that far gone. I have to admit that I'm observing this election with some sense of unease, though.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by phiwum

As I understand it, the board found the discrepancies troubling in 2018 as well. Figuring out why these discrepancies, if they differ from other parts of the state, are occurring is perfectly reasonable. I don't mean that the election shouldn't be certified because of these discrepancies but that they are a problem that ought to be fixed rather than ignored.

What I say above depends, of course, on whether such discrepancies are normal and expected. From what I understand, there are more districts failing to balance in Wayne County than elsewhere. Seems reasonable to try and understand why.

If there's a legitimate issue, and if an audit could be useful in avoiding future problems, then of course I'm all for it. It's just the gaslighting and the attempt to prevent/delay the certification that bothers me.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Proud Boys on parler are calling for one of county officials in Michigan responsible for certifying the results to be doxxed and harassed. Multiple threats of violence in the replies.



https://twitter.com/econbrkfst/statu...25482994884609

There has got to be some dark humour in the Proud Boys 'US Patriots' posting on Katie Hopkins'* new website. (Hopkins is a British far-right ex-Apprentice star who was banned from Twitter for her evermore racist and offensive tweets, so she set up Parler for people like herself to say whatever they like.)

*NB she is considered an hilarious joke by most people.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Have we not exhausted this exchange yet?

No, he's still at it.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by eerok

If there's a legitimate issue, and if an audit could be useful in avoiding future problems, then of course I'm all for it. It's just the gaslighting and the attempt to prevent/delay the certification that bothers me.

Sure, me too. I don't think certification should be held up for an audit. As I understand the situation, the discrepancies are pretty small. They are certainly not evidence of large scale fraud and the numbers are fairly south of the 150k votes needed to flip the state.

But having an audit to address unusual discrepancies would be reasonable and useful.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

At some point, people will be in the streets either demanding state governments don't enable it, or out in DC to insist that the legislature doesn't play along. Clashes with police and the military in such a scenario seems inevitable.

I can envision Trump calling for all loyal supporters to converge on Washington on January 20th to protest Biden’s swearing in. If done right I suspect he could get huge numbers out for something like that.

[CORed]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

It's pretty much unimaginable to me that he won't. Even if he remains President.

If he remains president, I'm not sure there will be an election in 2024.

[cosmicaug]

Originally Posted by CORed

If he remains president, I'm not sure there will be an election in 2024.

Why would you have an election? Have you seen how much cheating goes on in those things?

[cosmicaug]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

I suggest we stop worrying about Godwin for at least the immediate future.

For what it's worth, I think Godwin thinks you should take trump seriously.

Originally Posted by Mike Godwin wrote on Twitter

This is absolutely correct. Trump is relying to some large extent on the expectation that his opposition won't take it seriously. I'm taking it seriously.

Though frankly, I think that gives Trump way too much credit.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by eerok

I don't doubt that he'll try to run again, but I doubt he'd win the Republican primary next time. He's just too messy, and there are too many others who could rise up to capitalize on the damage he's done.

I'm seeing that a lot and I'm not buying a bar of it.

The Republicans are not the Trump Party, and it's somewhat ironic that a bloke who has never been able to control anything but his personal narrative has managed to control s dominant political movement.

Did you notice how many people voted for him?

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

I can envision Trump calling for all loyal supporters to converge on Washington on January 20th to protest Biden’s swearing in. If done right I suspect he could get huge numbers out for something like that.

I'd be prepared to wager very heavily that if he did, he'd get very few takers.

First off, no matter how many Proud Jerks and other Nazis turn up, they will be outnumbered by hundreds to one, because the Dems will flood Washington in even greater numbers than they did for Obama.

Secondly, security will be tighter than a mouse's anus - even the dumbest redneck Nazi clown will realise he has zero chance of getting within miles of anywhere with his guns, and since they're all cowards propped up by guns, they won't go.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

The core message of Trump and his Republican supporters is this:

Democracy doesn't work, because it is too susceptible to fraud.

For the good of America, we have to abandon Democracy.

They've been at it for decades, when you get down to it. It's simply...

How should I put this...

It's simply more visible now, in part because older strategies are failing, and in part because the current GOP leader is a pathological narcissist who can't just shut his yap or move along and wait for next time. People like Romney and Dole could easily put their long-term goals above themselves - Cheeto Benito's only goal is self-aggrandizement.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I'm seeing that a lot and I'm not buying a bar of it.

The Republicans are not the Trump Party, and it's somewhat ironic that a bloke who has never been able to control anything but his personal narrative has managed to control s dominant political movement.

Did you notice how many people voted for him?

My speculation is that the GOP don't want Trump back. They want Trump's base, and it's in their interest to devise a way to take it over with someone more sane and predictable at the helm.

I don't think Trump has made any friends among the GOP lately. It must be very uncomfortable being left holding the wet diaper of Trump's failure. Any allies one makes through instilling fear are not really allies, and that pretty much describes the GOP at this time.

It's all just speculation, of course.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

First off, no matter how many Proud Jerks and other Nazis turn up, they will be outnumbered by hundreds to one, because the Dems will flood Washington in even greater numbers than they did for Obama.

Secondly, security will be tighter than a mouse's anus - even the dumbest redneck Nazi clown will realise he has zero chance of getting within miles of anywhere with his guns, and since they're all cowards propped up by guns, they won't go.

I'm just not entirely sure about that. First off, Dems are actually taking COVID seriously unlike Trump supporters. Secondly, who is this security loyal to? Who gets to pick which agents are on the Secret Service, ultimately the sitting President. I will remain nervous about the transition to Biden until the afternoon of January 20, if and when I see video of him entering the White House.

[The Atheist]

And if you haven't seen this, enjoy!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americ...ess-conference

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by eerok

My speculation is that the GOP don't want Trump back. They want Trump's base, and it's in their interest to devise a way to take it over with someone more sane and predictable at the helm.

That's their entire problem - as I see it, most of those 70 million votes were for Trump, not the Republicans, and without him dying I don't see a way for the party to keep them all.

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

I'm just not entirely sure about that. First off, Dems are actually taking COVID seriously unlike Trump supporters.

So, those tens of thousands of people celebrating the election were all Republicans?

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Secondly, who is this security loyal to? Who gets to pick which agents are on the Secret Service, ultimately the sitting President. I will remain nervous about the transition to Biden until the afternoon of January 20, if and when I see video of him entering the White House.

90% of security for the event will be provided by Washington forces, not the SS. There will be thousands on duty and nowhere near every SS person will be on duty.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

So, those tens of thousands of people celebrating the election were all Republicans?

No of course not. However, don't expect the Trumpers to be massively outnumbered. Also, police have tended to turn the other way when right wing demonstrators show up with rifles, but not for anyone else. That said, DC is a rather democrat friendly town, and they will form the outer-ring of security.

Quote:

90% of security for the event will be provided by Washington forces, not the SS. There will be thousands on duty and nowhere near every SS person will be on duty.

You don't think the inauguration is an "all hands on deck" situation for the SS? I'm afraid of a crisis if Trump just won't leave. DC police are not going to storm the white house, aside from lack of jurisdiction, the SS has far better "toys" than they do. If the GOP retains the Senate then the Dems in congress have no real power. What happens then exactly? We're relying on the military to come to the rescue.

If I'm not mistaken, you are in New Zealand, just know that I'm a lot closer to where this is happening... and I'm nervous. We're in unprecedented times. I hear talk from people on the right, like personally, in my life from people I know. I hope its just a bunch of BS hot air, and it PROBABLY is. But again, I'm nervous.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

I'm afraid of a crisis if Trump just won't leave. DC police are not going to storm the white house, aside from lack of jurisdiction, the SS has far better "toys" than they do. If the GOP retains the Senate then the Dems in congress have no real power. What happens then exactly? We're relying on the military to come to the rescue.

I don't think anything like this could happen. The SS won't protect Trump if he remains in the White House after noon on 20 January 2021, because he will no longer be president. I'm sure they know what their job is, and there's no reason to believe they'd go renegade for Trump.

Also Trump is a physical coward. He'll be gone from the White House when the time comes, most likely before.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by eerok

I don't think anything like this could happen. The SS won't protect Trump if he remains in the White House after noon on 20 January 2021, because he will no longer be president. I'm sure they know what their job is, and there's no reason to believe they'd go renegade for Trump.

Also Trump is a physical coward. He'll be gone from the White House when the time comes, most likely before.

I question how easy it would be for the president to put in uber-loyal supporters into the SS? I'm not entirely sure. I do think that maybe, even in Trumps atrophied brain, he'll realize pulling such a stunt might actually result in negative consequences to him.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

I question how easy it would be for the president to put in uber-loyal supporters into the SS? I'm not entirely sure. I do think that maybe, even in Trumps atrophied brain, he'll realize pulling such a stunt might actually result in negative consequences to him.

My understanding is that the Secret Service is independent, and intentionally kept free from any political influence.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by eerok

My understanding is that the Secret Service is independent, and intentionally kept free from any political influence.

Oh, so it's like the Justice Department. That's good to know.

(I know, the Justice Department isn't literally independent, but neither is the Secret Service which is part of DHS and hence may or may not be headed by action figure Chad Wolf. Say what you will, just saying the name "Chad Wolf" makes me sound safe and secure. He'll take care of things, just you watch.)

[eerok]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Oh, so it's like the Justice Department. That's good to know.

(I know, the Justice Department isn't literally independent, but neither is the Secret Service which is part of DHS and hence may or may not be headed by action figure Chad Wolf. Say what you will, just saying the name "Chad Wolf" makes me sound safe and secure. He'll take care of things, just you watch.)

Oh, geez, don't use me as a reliable source. That's just my impression.

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

I can envision Trump calling for all loyal supporters to converge on Washington on January 20th to protest Biden’s swearing in. If done right I suspect he could get huge numbers out for something like that.

I really doubt that. Unless they were being paid.

[Cavemonster]

If it is beyond the realm of possibility that Trump ensures between now and Jan 20th the top decision makers within the USSS are loyalists who agree with Trump that he is the rightful President, show me why it's impossible and I'll sleep better tonight.

If your explanation includes anything like "It would look bad so he wouldn't do it" or relies on peop adhering to norms or decency, then I won't find it too reassuring. Those things have not served as very effective barriers over the last four years.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

If it is beyond the realm of possibility that Trump ensures between now and Jan 20th the top decision makers within the USSS are loyalists who agree with Trump that he is the rightful President, show me why it's impossible and I'll sleep better tonight.

If your explanation includes anything like "It would look bad so he wouldn't do it" or relies on peop adhering to norms or decency, then I won't find it too reassuring. Those things have not served as very effective barriers over the last four years.

But how would that work, exactly? Some armed goons form around Trump in the White House, and he refuses to leave? To what end? Why wouldn't the duly elected POTUS simply order an end to it? One's mere physical presence in the White House isn't what makes one a president. It's not a question of it being impossible, but more that it's stupid and ineffective.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No, he's still at it.

Yep, Trump is still trying to overturn a legitimate election. Ginger’s still saying “nothing to see here!”

It’s almost like she’s doing Trump’s dirty work for them as that’s the cover that many Republicans are giving themselves.

This is all perfectly normal. We are just concerned about voter irregularities.... don’t worry, it will all be resolved in court etc...

What Ginger is missing is that this is the actual con job - normalizing a refusal to concede and stringing the supporters along. Now officials are getting death threats and getting doxxed!

This is a ******** situation that Trump is encouraging. At least see this for what it is!

[Skeptic Ginger]

Giuliani and his 'crack team' of lawyers went on C-Span (guess no news stations would schedule them) this morning for more than an hour (there's a transcript) to spew election fraud nonsense. I listened to a couple minutes, skipped ahead, skipped ahead some more and skimmed the transcript. I wanted to hear the questions and answers but after a couple of them it was clear these were friends of the cause. I don't believe there were any news organizations there but I could have missed them in the skimming.

This was all the evidence the courts already threw out. You can really make it look like you have a case if you put enough stuff up. Have you ever seen the Loose Change video about 9-11 being an inside job? That's one slick hour of convincing propaganda.

Anyway, at least the mainstream news isn't buying it: NBC: Rudy Giuliani baselessly alleges 'centralized' voter fraud at free-wheeling news conference -- On Thursday, the president's legal team flooded the zone with false claims.

Quote:

President Donald Trump’s attorney, Rudy Giuliani, took the president’s voter fraud claims even further on Thursday, baselessly alleging during a frenzied news conference that the fraud was nationally coordinated.

The president's legal team alleged already debunked claims of voter fraud, baseless allegations of corrupted and hackable voting machines, election interference by foreign communists, and even references to antifa. The former New York City mayor also offered alternative election results for swing states and argued the president had a viable path to a second term.

Let's not leave out the Commies and Antifa.

But Fox made sure to spread the lies around: Giuliani presses Trump election challenge case in fiery news conference with legal team -- The ex-New York City mayor aggressively made the case for the Trump campaign's legal challenges

Quote:

President Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani aggressively made the case on Thursday for the Trump campaign's legal challenge of the 2020 election results, alleging in a fiery news conference that there was a "centralized" plan to carry out voter fraud around the country.

This is a different approach than the campaign has recently taken in court, where they have primarily focused on the validity of ballots and counts without asserting fraud. While Giuliani did not present any direct evidence of a massive fraud scheme, Giuliani asserted that this is the "logical conclusion" reached as a result of incidents he said took place in several states.

So the court case was 'different' and there's no direct evidence but it's only logical there is a nationwide cabal who ousted Trump.



Sadly, that's a conspiracy theory that will live on for ages.


Here's the link if anyone is feeling particularly masochistic: https://www.c-span.org/video/?478246...plans-lawsuits

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by eerok

My speculation is that the GOP don't want Trump back. They want Trump's base, and it's in their interest to devise a way to take it over with someone more sane and predictable at the helm.

I don't think Trump has made any friends among the GOP lately. It must be very uncomfortable being left holding the wet diaper of Trump's failure. Any allies one makes through instilling fear are not really allies, and that pretty much describes the GOP at this time.

It's all just speculation, of course.

It makes sense. He's an *******. Some of those idiots like Pence are happy to admire him daily. But he has a lot of the GOP cowed, afraid to so much as criticize him under their breaths. He's burnt bridge after bridge.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

And if you haven't seen this, enjoy!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americ...ess-conference

Oh, that's what that was! I thought it was sweat he kept missing when he wiped off his forehead.

[TellyKNeasuss]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Secondly, security will be tighter than a mouse's anus - even the dumbest redneck Nazi clown will realise he has zero chance of getting within miles of anywhere with his guns, and since they're all cowards propped up by guns, they won't go.

I'm not sure how tight mouse anuses are, but there is a scenario in which security might not be as tight as you imagine. Trump could federalize the DC National Guard and then as CIC of the armed forces issue an order that all military members vacate DC. If the heads of the Homeland Security Department and Interior Department cooperate, they can order the Secret Service and National Park Police to stay away. That would leave only the DC police and possibly the Capitol Police for security.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss

I'm not sure how tight mouse anuses are, but there is a scenario in which security might not be as tight as you imagine. Trump could federalize the DC National Guard and then as CIC of the armed forces issue an order that all military members vacate DC. If the heads of the Homeland Security Department and Interior Department cooperate, they can order the Secret Service and National Park Police to stay away. That would leave only the DC police and possibly the Capitol Police for security.

It sounds like you're pitching a Movie of the Week.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Yep, Trump is still trying to overturn a legitimate election. Ginger’s still saying “nothing to see here!”

It’s almost like she’s doing Trump’s dirty work for them as that’s the cover that many Republicans are giving themselves.

This is all perfectly normal. We are just concerned about voter irregularities.... don’t worry, it will all be resolved in court etc...

What Ginger is missing is that this is the actual con job - normalizing a refusal to concede and stringing the supporters along. Now officials are getting death threats and getting doxxed!

This is a ******** situation that Trump is encouraging. At least see this for what it is!

What's the point of having this discussion if you change the actual things I've said to a straw person you'd rather have the argument with?


BTW, the msn is coming around nicely. The news reports I've seen so far all call Rudy's charade a fail except one.

Only Fox seemed to take is seriously. The Guardian reported on the Biden COVID conference only mentioning Rudy in passing.
Trump rails against election defeat as US Covid deaths top 250,000 – live

They are still updating it.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Giuliani and his 'crack team' of lawyers went on C-Span (guess no news stations would schedule them)...

I was in the car and both CNN and MSNBS were running ads so I took a chance and switched to Fox News. They were covering at least a portion of the fiasco live.

[Cavemonster]

Originally Posted by eerok

But how would that work, exactly? Some armed goons form around Trump in the White House, and he refuses to leave? To what end? Why wouldn't the duly elected POTUS simply order an end to it? One's mere physical presence in the White House isn't what makes one a president. It's not a question of it being impossible, but more that it's stupid and ineffective.

What armed goons? The secret service would surround the person they considered the president as per their orders from whoever heads the secret service.

They take their orders from a boss, their job isn't to interpret the vote count. The chain of command are all Trump loyalists. The long term civil servants have either been purged or work under someone loyal. Who is bringing Biden the information a president needs or carrying out his orders?

The transition relies on a whole bunch of individuals recognizing it. If the people in the correct positions don't recognize a transition, then how does it happen?

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It makes sense. He's an *******. Some of those idiots like Pence are happy to admire him daily. But he has a lot of the GOP cowed, afraid to so much as criticize him under their breaths. He's burnt bridge after bridge.

To know Trump is to loathe him. It's no accident that his home state so aggressively seeks indictments against him. I don't see much loyalty among the GOP once his power to harm them diminishes.

The best scenario would be if Trump goes to jail, but that's another topic.

[d4m10n]

Slow rolling coup update:

https://twitter.com/bradheath/status...25481595674625

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN27Z30G

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

What armed goons? The secret service would surround the person they considered the president as per their orders from whoever heads the secret service.

The Secret Service are the armed goons to which I was referring, in your scenario that they might declare allegiance to Trump. What would this allegiance look like, though? Would they form a ring around Trump? Shuffle around? Practice their crouching firing postures? That was my point. They can't make him president.

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

They take their orders from a boss, their job isn't to interpret the vote count. The chain of command are all Trump loyalists. The long term civil servants have either been purged or work under someone loyal. Who is bringing Biden the information a president needs or carrying out his orders?

The transition relies on a whole bunch of individuals recognizing it. If the people in the correct positions don't recognize a transition, then how does it happen?

You're talking about a complete and systemic breakdown of American government. I don't see how you think that's going to happen. There's nothing going on right now that would suggest that this is plausible.

You might as well speculate that Trump will have Biden arrested and jailed for election fraud. I mean, get to the meat if you want to go there.

[Cavemonster]

Originally Posted by eerok

The Secret Service are the armed goons to which I was referring, in your scenario that they might declare allegiance to Trump. What would this allegiance look like, though? Would they form a ring around Trump? Shuffle around? Practice their crouching firing postures? That was my point. They can't make him president.



You're talking about a complete and systemic breakdown of American government. I don't see how you think that's going to happen. There's nothing going on right now that would suggest that this is plausible.

You might as well speculate that Trump will have Biden arrested and jailed for election fraud. I mean, get to the meat if you want to go there.

The outcome of a complete subversion of democracy is pretty extreme.

The question is, what are the specific concrete actions needed to acheive this and are they specifically implausible?

It seems to me, only three things are needed.

1) Trump decides he won't accept the election results no matter what.

2) He replaces or fires anyone who would be involved in the transfer of power to Biden.

3) Enough people within the executive branch go along with it.

#1 seems pretty much a given. Number 2 is underway. He's been purging the branch of non loyalists for four years. He's given himself more power to do that with an EO and has ramped up the firing and replacing. He has installed people who the courts have declared not legally in the position who continue to wield power.

Again, the OUTCOME is extraordinary, but why are the steps that would lead to it unlikely?

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

The outcome of a complete subversion of democracy is pretty extreme.

The question is, what are the specific concrete actions needed to acheive this and are they specifically implausible?

It seems to me, only three things are needed.

1) Trump decides he won't accept the election results no matter what.

2) He replaces or fires anyone who would be involved in the transfer of power to Biden.

3) Enough people within the executive branch go along with it.

#1 seems pretty much a given. Number 2 is underway. He's been purging the branch of non loyalists for four years. He's given himself more power to do that with an EO and has ramped up the firing and replacing. He has installed people who the courts have declared not legally in the position who continue to wield power.

Again, the OUTCOME is extraordinary, but why are the steps that would lead to it unlikely?

#1 -- That goes without saying. Trump will never admit he lost the election.

#2 & #3-- I don't understand these. After the EC, the election is verified by Congress, isn't it? I don't think there's anyone Trump could hire or fire that would cause him to "win" the election. Before the EC, SCOTUS could possibly do something, but why would they?

Just curious, though. Even though many in the GOP are willing to remain silent while Trump embarrasses them, do you think enough of them would be willing to destroy American democracy to keep a douche like Trump in power? I don't think even Mitch would do that. SCOTUS would have nothing to gain from it, and everything to lose.

ETA: In sum, I doubt Trump has the power to manage a coup without support he almost certainly doesn't have. It'd pretty much take SCOTUS throwing away all the votes and declaring Trump emperor.