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#561 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 2,556
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"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade |
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#562 |
Quixoticist
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: ON Canada
Posts: 3,566
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"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde |
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#563 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,705
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No. He actually had Mnuchin tell the Feds no more economic help for America.
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/mnuc...ry?id=74315800 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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#564 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,618
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Biden should proclaim that his administration's fiscal policy will be based on MMT, and that Republicans are welcome to balance the budget when they are back in charges, since they are so great with money.
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So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do? |
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#565 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,435
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#566 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,900
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Gobble gobble |
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#567 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,435
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No, it's not a coup attempt if it is nothing but foot stamping and wishful thinking.
Quote:
There are no armies. There is a weak tea crybaby and a handful of cronies, doing nothing but asking for a coup, pretty please?
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A coup attempt in your eyes. A sad joke in mine. |
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#568 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,592
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Yeah we truly are at...
"Sent to prison for a crime I didn't even commit. I mean really 'Attempted' murder what kind of crime is that? Do they give Nobel Prizes for 'Attempted' Chemistry!" - Sideshow Bob ... level here. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#569 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,756
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Sign of the times. There was no Twitter in Napoleon's, Hitler's or Stalin's days. However, had there been, one can imagine them tweeting stuff like 'ALLONS ENFANTS DE LA PATRIÉ!' or 'BLOOD SOIL AND HONOUR!' or 'THE WORKERS UNITED WILL NEVER BE DEFEATED!'
Whereas it often took days for a message or news to arrive from another country, now we get it instantly. Trump tweeting, 'I WON THE ELECTION' is outrageous and disgraceful, knowing it to be untrue and even seditious. |
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer pĺ! |
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#570 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,464
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And now they are apparently mulling over whether they should meet with GOP representatives from Pennsylvania:
Quote:
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-- August Pamplona |
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#571 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,435
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Is that a coup attempt? I hear they're all the rage.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#572 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,435
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#573 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,756
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer pĺ! |
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#574 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,592
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1. That's not what you are doing. You're screeching that both sides are equally bad and that neither side can get a slap on the wrist without the other side getting an equal slap on the wrist.
You'll claim that's not what you are doing, but that's what you are doing. And we will continue to point and laugh. I get it, that the whole "Oh I'm just keeping one from getting too full of itself" is the whole persona that people like you adopt, but even that, which is stupid anyway, isn't what you are doing. 2. If that's what you are doing why the pissy routine and the denial that that is just what you are doing? Why were just arguing that Whataboutism isn't exactly what you are always doing? You denied it, but then when called on it you admitted with a huff and an air of haughty derision. Not very honest of you. 3. Why? Just... why? Why (I expect none but would really like an answer here from somebody, anybody) do so many people look at a discussion that has a side that is arguing from a clear and obvious place of factual, logical superiority and feel this beckoning siren's call to run into it for said discussion for sole purpose of making sure that side doesn't "get too full of itself?" Why? ******* why? What do you and others think this is such a vital service in discussion? Again I have ask... you do understand that being right isn't an unfair advantage that you have handicap the discussion for? Why is "Oh Lordie the people who aren't reality denying sociopaths might think too much of themselves, can't have that. I better swoop in and take them down a peg so they don't" such a goddamn core of your personal philosophy? Why is taking the correct side down a peg so goddamn bloody important to you? |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#575 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,464
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Certification for the state of Georgia should be happening in a couple of hours. Hopefully, that'll be the first domino to take down this clown show.
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-- August Pamplona |
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#576 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,435
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#577 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,900
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I think you and I disagree about how much traction Trump is getting with this. If I had to bet, I would probably say that Trump won't be successful in swaying enough of the right people over to his plot, but that's not to say he hasn't already swayed some.
It seems to me you are seriously downplaying how much success Trump has had in persuading powerful elements of our political system to at least take a "wait and see" approach, if not outright endorsement of his claims of fraud. |
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Gobble gobble |
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#578 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,592
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Distracting from the core argument about what he is doing wrong with semantics is defending him.
If Trump's drowning someone in a vat of sparkling wine and you're more worried about the fact someone called it champagne, then yes you are, absolutely, 100%, across the board defending Trump and his drowning of the person. "LOL I'm not defending him, just making sure discussions about what he's doing wrong never stay on track" isn't a thing. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#579 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,618
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In the absence of an actual Monarch, plenty Americans have the instinct to assume that if POTUS asks, it must be legal, and refusing would be illegal.
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So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do? |
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#580 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,592
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It's more of the mob lawyer thing, the whole...
"Why my client didn't actually shakedown the shop owner for protection money, he just walked into the shop with his two associates, mentioned how nice of a place it was and how much of a shame it would be if anything were to happen to it. Surely there is no law against that?" ... routine. That's all the whole "Oh it's not technically a coup because he's just asking" routine really is, just that. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#581 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,435
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I hear that, but my impression is that power players and supporters will ride the coattails of this train wreck and get whatever they can out of it while an R is next to the President's name, and quickly bail. They have no real loyalty to him and will drop him like a bad habit at the first whiff of trouble. You think they are rabid and loyal, and I think they are sniveling and weak
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We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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#582 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,900
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Gobble gobble |
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#583 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,900
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I don't think they are loyal, but I think they understand that a perception of disloyalty means the end of any chance of ever having support from the vital Republican base. In many of these districts, being seen as insufficiently loyal to Trump means the end of a political career.
I'm sure there are plenty that would privately breathe a sigh of relief if Trump exits the scene, but they won't do anything that can be publicly seen as crossing him. When push comes to shove, the cowards path may very well be to fall in line behind Trump. I think we see a lot of them waiting for a dam-burst moment, some precipitous moment where suddenly it's safe to betray Trump and accept the Biden win. But nobody wants to risk being the initiator and there have been several notable failures like the sudden fall from grace of Fox News and Tucker Carlson. It's entirely possible that such a moment never comes, and these people just keep going along with it until it's too late to matter. |
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#584 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,039
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Sooner or later it has to come down to that--no matter how airtight the paper process is, at some point it's a person with free will doing so. What separation of powers does is make sure those opportunities are spread out and not unified. But it's not foolproof.
Process could use some work though, to ensure that such decisions are clearly counter to law at an earlier stage in the process--so that a naked power grab must be revealed before anyone planning a coup has a chance to do a lot of maneuvering of power under pretense of still being within the law. |
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#585 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,618
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Usually, I would agree.
But Trump#s history suggests that, for whatever reason, he has managed to keep a few loyal henchmen all his life. And many people have been willing to make deals with him despite his past performance. I think the GOP will have to let Trump freeload on them for a good while longer, because not doing so would be worse for them. |
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So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do? |
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#586 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 20,756
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Some people are claiming Trump is not capable of attempting a coup. He's painted as a clown. Let's compare and contrast him with Vidkun Quisling, who gives his name to the notorious puppet Nazi-German government in Norway during WWII, allowing German occupation and hundreds, if not thousands, of resistance fighters to be executed. As a politician, Quisling, like Trump was considered completely useless. He attempted a coup d'état by radio broadcast. (=Could be a parallel with Trump's and Pompeo's tweets.) As expected, Quisling failed miserably. He had split from the Farmers Party to form a Fascist one but the people weren't having it. Enter the Nazi's, who awarded Quisling a dream job of being the Prime Minister of Nazi-Germany's sock parliament. Yes, he was considered a twit and a buffoon but look at the irreparable damage he did to Norway, lasting generations (cf the Nazi babies).
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We might think Trump is bungling along. However, his letting the elderly and weak die of Covid19 as 'nobodies' isn't his being a buffoon but a very serious deliberate political act of negligent manslaughter. His appealing to the Proud Boys was a serious call to treason and lawlessness. He is a psychopath and monster and not a joke. |
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#587 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,464
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Yes. Exactly. It's this moment where every GOP politician suddenly realizes that every other GOP politician is going to defect that I have been waiting for. Trump is in an incredibly weak position & I doubt that he can bluff his way through this but he is trying. I think that this moment of mass defection will come but it is disconcerting and worrisome that it is taking so long.
Maybe the Georgia vote certification will serve as a trigger for this. |
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-- August Pamplona |
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#588 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,039
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I guess the real question is "Does he have McConnell?"
That's really who we're all waiting for, isn't it? He's the person that can play the Senate games that change the outcome while still appearing legal. I don't think he does, but I'd feel a lot better if ol' Mitch would just make a solid public statement that Trump is running out of viable challenges, and that he has no objection to logging the electoral votes. I think he likes making everyone nervous and may have some incentive to keep the "stolen" narrative active. I just hope it's not to justify another obstructionist move. Someone help me analyze this possibility--no matter how unthinkable it would be, isnt it his job to tally the electoral votes officially? What if he simply refuses to do so, so that on whatever key date there is not an EV majority for Biden? Not whether that would ruin him politically--just simply can it literally be done if he wants to be that bull-headed? |
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#589 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,094
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The only people pushing the stolen election narrative are idiots. Mitch knows how to game the system, but he's also very smart and has two runoff elections in GA to worry about. If those go badly for R he won't be doing much of anything. I'm sure he's waiting for the legal challenges to play out while keeping the R base in GA motivated, and legal challenges are all but done with.
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#590 |
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 14,742
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Where are you getting this from? What statistically valid and representative survey are you using to back up this assertion?
I suspect (note I'm not asserting it as true but openly admitting my speculation) that all you're doing is assuming whatever it is that allows you to defend your previously accepted belief that we're in the midst of a coup. |
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I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me. |
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#591 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,788
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I can agree with this. Makes perfect sense of the evidence.
I have wondered if the change in the head of the Homeland Security Department wasn't just a move to review anything confidential Krebs wouldn't share with Trump, much of what Trump believes is there may or may not actually be there. And riling up the crowd to make Biden fear the reaction if he takes legal action against Trump is clearly within Incompetrump's competencies. |
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#592 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,039
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#593 |
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 14,742
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And the coup-mongerers are really overestimating how fickle people are, and how much many people actually believe in and value integrity.
The "end of our system" requires a LOT of people to blatantly disregard everything they believe in and become literal traitors with no thought at all. |
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I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me. |
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#594 |
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 14,742
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For me, it's because BOTH SIDES of this stupid thing we call politics in the US have been leaning on raw emotion for many years. They preach interpretations of facts, inferences of meaning, and assumptions of motive. The news, BOTH SIDES OF IT, feeds you a set of mostly innocuous objective facts, but wraps them up in a narrative that leads you to an apophenic conclusion of OMG HE'S THE MOST EVILEST THING EVER in which your ability to critically think and to weigh evidence and recognize speculation has simply evaporated.
I'm an atheist, in all possible senses of the term. But for a great many people here on ISF, politics has become their religion. They are dogmatic about it. They proselytize their beliefs, and they decry a lack of agreement with their religion as heresy. And anyone who dares to point out the down sides and the risks of their crusade are demonized as infidels who support the great evil which only their true faith can combat. ETA* This is the royal "you" at play here, although I am not excusing you from my tirade. |
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I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me. |
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#595 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,788
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#596 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,718
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I read this one. I thought the author made interesting points. I don't know that I buy it, but it is an interesting argument that democracy tempered by reasonable folks nudging the nomination process along is stabler and better.
I think it's fair to say it's somewhat anti-democratic. It is not much like having state legislatures overturn the voters' will. I don't think this comparison is apt at all. |
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#597 |
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 14,742
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Let's translate this into objective skeptical terms.
"Some of us already used our imaginations to speculate about what we assume that Trump really means to do" It gets dressed up with "it's been covered" as if there's actually some solid evidence involved. There's not, it's speculative. It gets dressed up with "likely" as if there's an objective means of gauging the probability. There's not, there's only fear of a possible path. |
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I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me. |
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#598 |
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 14,742
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It was intended as a counter to The Great Z's framing that Republicans are aiming to reduce democracy so they can get their way. All of the linked articles (and the review) are from left-leaning sources and authors, all of them bemoaning the fact that the problem with the US (which led to Trump) is that we have too much democracy, and that we'd really be better off if we took away some of that democracy so that people who know better can make sure we don't get into trouble.
Some of them do have good points with respect to risks in a democratic system. But my point was that it's not the Republicans pushing the "too much democracy" narrative. |
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I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me. |
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#599 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,788
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![]() First, I didn't notice you were being dramatic until these last few posts. Second, it's not the word "coup" that is the issue. So unless someone else is making the bolded argument, it certainly isn't mine. So I'll wait to see if you are addressing someone else here. In the meantime, the issue is, said refusal to leave office is Trump's con. The news media fell for it yet again starting months ago with asking Trump if he would concede if he lost. Why did they even ask given it wasn't credible. It still isn't. |
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#600 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,519
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So id Trump asks officials in various states to just ignore the popular on his say so that there's been massive fraud and they say no some people here seem to think that means everything's fine and that's not a problem because it didn't work?
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So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
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