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Old 17th April 2019, 05:33 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It claimed her life.
This.
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Old 17th April 2019, 05:44 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It claimed her life.
Not to split hairs, but it didn't do it on it's own, it was her tool of choice the take her own life.
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Old 17th April 2019, 06:32 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Not to split hairs, but it didn't do it on it's own, it was her tool of choice the take her own life.
Right. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns just make it so much easier.
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Old 17th April 2019, 06:33 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Not to split hairs, but it didn't do it on it's own, it was her tool of choice the take her own life.
As is all-too-frequently the case.

And no-one say that it doesn't count because it was a suicide. Of course it ******* counts.
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Old 17th April 2019, 06:37 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Right. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns just make it so much easier.
More suicides are completed with a gun than any other method. Restricting access to guns has a demonstrable clear effect on suicide rates. It's suicide prevention 101. Give someone time to reconsider, and they often will. Not always, but often. Access to a gun allows someone to act on the impulse in a moment.
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Old 17th April 2019, 06:41 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
More suicides are completed with a gun than any other method. Restricting access to guns has a demonstrable clear effect on suicide rates. It's suicide prevention 101. Give someone time to reconsider, and they often will. Not always, but often. Access to a gun allows someone to act on the impulse in a moment.
I saw a statistic years ago saying that teen girls attempt suicide one or two orders of magnitude more often than teen boys. But "successful" suicides by teen boys outnumber those by girls by a similar margin. The girls scratch their wrists, or take a handful of aspirin. The boys get hold of a gun.

Citation Needed, of course.

I feel very sorry for the family of this young woman.
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Old 17th April 2019, 07:09 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
"successful" suicides
"Completed" is best practice language.
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Old 17th April 2019, 08:06 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I saw a statistic years ago saying that teen girls attempt suicide one or two orders of magnitude more often than teen boys. But "successful" suicides by teen boys outnumber those by girls by a similar margin. The girls scratch their wrists, or take a handful of aspirin. The boys get hold of a gun.

Citation Needed, of course.

I feel very sorry for the family of this young woman.
It appears men have more "heart" when it comes to killing in general, but especially rampage violence, where the perpetrator just snaps and tries to take down a bunch of others with him.

I think it was something like less than 0.008% of rampage killers are women. But they share about 10% of total homicides in the U.S.
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Old 17th April 2019, 08:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
More suicides are completed with a gun than any other method. Restricting access to guns has a demonstrable clear effect on suicide rates. It's suicide prevention 101. Give someone time to reconsider, and they often will. Not always, but often. Access to a gun allows someone to act on the impulse in a moment.
I don't want to derail but is this actually demonstrated? ie if guns are unavailable are suicide rates lower? International comparisons, or?

It certainly feels intuitively true but I don't know.

Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I saw a statistic years ago saying that teen girls attempt suicide one or two orders of magnitude more often than teen boys. But "successful" suicides by teen boys outnumber those by girls by a similar margin. The girls scratch their wrists, or take a handful of aspirin. The boys get hold of a gun.

Citation Needed, of course.

I feel very sorry for the family of this young woman.
and even when they don't get a gun (ie where it is much harder to get a gun) boys and men still kill themselves more "successfully" or "completely" or whatever.

Last edited by pharphis; 17th April 2019 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 17th April 2019, 08:44 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
More suicides are completed with a gun than any other method. Restricting access to guns has a demonstrable clear effect on suicide rates. It's suicide prevention 101. Give someone time to reconsider, and they often will. Not always, but often. Access to a gun allows someone to act on the impulse in a moment.
That's pretty much the argument for waiting periods. That could have saved this girl's life.
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Old 17th April 2019, 09:11 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I don't want to derail but is this actually demonstrated? ie if guns are unavailable are suicide rates lower? International comparisons, or?

It certainly feels intuitively true but I don't know.
I have been told so by mental health experts working in the field of suicide prevention, but I'm afraid I do not have a citation to back it up. They're probably in journals I don't have access to. But I trust the source, using a skeptic's definition of a trustworthy source (I hope my meaning is clear here).

And I should clarify that restricting access to guns drops the rate of suicide completion - not attempts.
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Old 17th April 2019, 11:06 PM   #52
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While I am no fan of the US seemingly free for all gun laws, background checks wouldn't have helped in this case, and by the sounds of it she just would have used another method even without access.

Seems she was more worried about doing it some where near Columbine.

Weird tribute or something, or a feeling of connection to the ones that died.
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Old 17th April 2019, 11:19 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I have been told so by mental health experts working in the field of suicide prevention, but I'm afraid I do not have a citation to back it up. They're probably in journals I don't have access to. But I trust the source, using a skeptic's definition of a trustworthy source (I hope my meaning is clear here).

And I should clarify that restricting access to guns drops the rate of suicide completion - not attempts.
ok thanks for clarifying
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Old 17th April 2019, 11:40 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It claimed her life.

Give me a ****** break with that ****. There is no reason to spew that baseless propaganda babble in this thread.
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Old 17th April 2019, 11:43 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Give me a ****** break with that ****. There is no reason to spew that baseless propaganda babble in this thread.
Ah. I see we have a live one.
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Old 17th April 2019, 11:47 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
"Completed" is best practice language.
It is more just making it sound nicer for the more "sensitive" isn't it?
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Old 17th April 2019, 11:49 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
ok thanks for clarifying

It's been debunked here several times over the years.

The only relationship conclusively proven is that countries that have guns have more gun suicides. Which is a big DURRRRRRR!!

A link between countries with guns having a statistically significant higher rate of suicides overall has never been proven. Most studies only show a very slight increase. But it would be one that would also show up if a country banned any popular method of suicide. Not just guns. You would see the down tick if you banned sleeping pills. Or rope.

Firearm are good at killing things. That is obvious. Any talk of preventing a significant number of suicides by banning guns is just ******* being spewed by people with an anti-gun agenda.
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Old 17th April 2019, 11:52 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ah. I see we have a live one.

You are free to make a thread about gun-control and have your propaganda debunked in it.


"People don't kill people, it's the guns that do it" is worse than that "heartbeat at 2 weeks" ******* that the creator cultists spew.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:07 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It is more just making it sound nicer for the more "sensitive" isn't it?
Well, that's a terrible way of expressing it, but essentially, yes.

People who experience suicidal ideation experience an increase in suicidal thoughts for a lot of reasons - the language that people use and the way people describe suicide are big ones. As I mentioned, current best practice is to refer to "completed" suicide, - although there certainly is robust discussion in the suicide prevention community over this. It's generally not controversial to say that you shouldn't refer to a "successful" suicide because success is a goal to be sought, and that can increase the occurrence of suicidal thoughts. It's also considered bad form these days to say someone "committed suicide", because again that carries an implication of commitment to a goal. Instead, say that they "took their own life".

You shouldn't describe the method someone used to take their own life, as again this greatly increases suicidal ideation in susceptible readers or listeners. A person I know who is a multiple suicide attempt survivor had a VERY bad time when Robin Williams died, because the manner of his death was described in detail in several outlets. This is the real meaning of the word "trigger" and why I get snarky when it is misused. They experienced a massive increase in suicidal thinking and it took all of their mental health management strategies, including medication, to recover from that episode.

Anyway, I'm being long-winded. The point is, where suicide prevention is the goal, language matters. It matters a lot. Any person who works with suicidal people will be able to tell you that.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:08 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
You are free to make a thread about gun-control and have your propaganda debunked in it.


"People don't kill people, it's the guns that do it" is worse than that "heartbeat at 2 weeks" ******* that the creator cultists spew.
Obviously I disagree strongly, but as it turns out in this thread I'd much rather talk about suicide prevention, so there's really no need for vitriol.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:14 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, that's a terrible way of expressing it, but essentially, yes.

People who experience suicidal ideation experience an increase in suicidal thoughts for a lot of reasons - the language that people use and the way people describe suicide are big ones. As I mentioned, current best practice is to refer to "completed" suicide, - although there certainly is robust discussion in the suicide prevention community over this. It's generally not controversial to say that you shouldn't refer to a "successful" suicide because success is a goal to be sought, and that can increase the occurrence of suicidal thoughts. It's also considered bad form these days to say someone "committed suicide", because again that carries an implication of commitment to a goal. Instead, say that they "took their own life".

You shouldn't describe the method someone used to take their own life, as again this greatly increases suicidal ideation in susceptible readers or listeners. A person I know who is a multiple suicide attempt survivor had a VERY bad time when Robin Williams died, because the manner of his death was described in detail in several outlets. This is the real meaning of the word "trigger" and why I get snarky when it is misused. They experienced a massive increase in suicidal thinking and it took all of their mental health management strategies, including medication, to recover from that episode.

Anyway, I'm being long-winded. The point is, where suicide prevention is the goal, language matters. It matters a lot. Any person who works with suicidal people will be able to tell you that.
Yeah. Figured that was the reason.

Over here the vast majority of media have an agreed code where they don't even say suicide, let alone method.

But is always the same

"Died suddenly"

And then they chuck a heap of help line contacts under every story that refers to the person.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:41 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Yeah. Figured that was the reason.

Over here the vast majority of media have an agreed code where they don't even say suicide, let alone method.

But is always the same

"Died suddenly"

And then they chuck a heap of help line contacts under every story that refers to the person.
Yep. Good work, those media.
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Old 19th April 2019, 05:20 AM   #63
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And here I thought the #1 cause of suicide was mental illness.
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Old Yesterday, 05:36 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
And here I thought the #1 cause of suicide was mental illness.
You're mixing up cause and method. Don't do that.
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