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Old 17th October 2017, 05:59 PM   #41
Noztradamus
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
sarcasm dude.
Conservatives ( well, the trumptards ) don't think California can do anything good
Attempted Sarcasm
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Old 17th October 2017, 06:07 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I want to be able to purchase genetically superior and rarer breeds of animals because mixed mutts are beneath consideration.

Also, pit bulls should be genocided.
Get a grip dude. Genetic purity leads to hemophilia, insanity, ugly babies and the crime against nature that is the British Royal Family.
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Old 17th October 2017, 07:38 PM   #43
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I don't know of one adult in my circle that has brought home a cat or dog from a pet store - everybody I know goes to either the humane society or pet rescue groups or professional breeders - as in folks who breed show winning dogs or cats.
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Old 17th October 2017, 07:51 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Varanid View Post
Then you are just not looking very hard.
Hey, my biased sample is based on who comes to the clinic, not my looking .
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Old 17th October 2017, 07:54 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
The Adam Ruins Everything on this topic is fantastic. Anyone even remotely interested should watch it.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5730550/
God no. Please look at proper sources of information, not TV comedians/truth-tellers/propagandists.
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Old 17th October 2017, 08:34 PM   #46
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California - killing itself one regulation at a time.

Hey Cali, howzabout we make it illegal for cat owners to let their animals crap and kill birds in my garden? I'm sure a lot more people would be behind that one - if you actually asked anyone that is.

Ask us about the Sanctuary State thing too. You may actually find one or two people who think it's a fine idea! Idiots.
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Old 17th October 2017, 08:47 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
God no. Please look at proper sources of information, not TV comedians/truth-tellers/propagandists.
It's not an either/or proposition. You can look at tv shows, and if piqued by something, then research it further. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:30 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Attempted Sarcasm
If you didn't like it I call it a win!

Last person I knew that got a dog from a "breeder" got a puppy with so many ticks on it that they immediately had to take it to a vet.
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Old 18th October 2017, 03:07 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
If you didn't like it I call it a win!

Last person I knew that got a dog from a "breeder" got a puppy with so many ticks on it that they immediately had to take it to a vet.
Just to be contrary...it can be really difficult to prevent or remove fleas or ticks from a litter of puppies.

Most of the medications can't be applied until they're about 8 weeks old.

They chew flea collars off of each other, so there's nothing but bits scattered round even just a few hours of putting them on.

Some of the shampoos are good for getting rid of them, but the chemicals wash right off in the rinse so it doesn't protect them.

The only real way to prevent them is try to keep the whole house (assuming the dogs are indoors) bug proof, which is hard to do even without dogs. If someone -anyone- gets too far behind the curve, the costs for extermination can be astronomical.

Sometimes I think the term "reputable breeders" is just used as a synonym for "wealthy breeders". Those who are making their living breeding dogs and forced to keep the expenses low are dumped into the "backyard breeders" column, regardless of how conscientious they are about providing the best care possible under the circumstances.
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Old 18th October 2017, 03:36 AM   #50
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Fleas are a difficult issue for sure, but things like Program will address it. I can't imagine how a litter of young puppies can possibly be picking up ticks.

There's a twitter hashtag going the rounds, #wheresmum. It means, if you're buying a puppy (or kitten) you need to see the litter in its home environment while it's still with the mother, so you can assess the conditions the animals are being reared in and also the temperament and disposition of the mother.
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Old 18th October 2017, 05:02 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
If you didn't like it I call it a win!

Last person I knew that got a dog from a "breeder" got a puppy with so many ticks on it that they immediately had to take it to a vet.
Odd, we've gotten 2 dogs from breeders - one that lived 4 years longer than normal for the breed and one that is alive and well at 15. We also saved 5 street dogs when we lived in Mexico, 3 that were placed in homes in the US and 2 that we kept.

Anecdotes for the win!
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Old 18th October 2017, 05:04 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I want to be able to purchase genetically superior and rarer breeds of animals because mixed mutts are beneath consideration.
I'm assuming you're parodying yourself for our mutual amusement, here?
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Old 18th October 2017, 05:13 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Fleas are a difficult issue for sure, but things like Program will address it. I can't imagine how a litter of young puppies can possibly be picking up ticks.

There's a twitter hashtag going the rounds, #wheresmum. It means, if you're buying a puppy (or kitten) you need to see the litter in its home environment while it's still with the mother, so you can assess the conditions the animals are being reared in and also the temperament and disposition of the mother.
In some areas out here where I live, ticks are a constant battle. I've been in homes that are just overrun; even without pets. The are so thick that even after a short walk through the brush you can find a few on your clothes, and very likely at least one latched on.

Thankfully, right here where I am has relatively "normal" concentrations of them, but I've seen families struggle to keep their kids tick free, let alone the dogs.

The county sprays for mosquitos every year now, and I almost think that might be helping to keep the tick population down, because as I type this I realize it's been a few years since I've seen anyone really infested.
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Old 18th October 2017, 06:10 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There's a twitter hashtag going the rounds, #wheresmum. It means, if you're buying a puppy (or kitten) you need to see the litter in its home environment while it's still with the mother, so you can assess the conditions the animals are being reared in and also the temperament and disposition of the mother.
This is a perfectly reasonable approach, which clearly has no place in this thread of knee-jerk, breeders-are-evil-but-I-can't-be-bothered-to-investigate-the-issue-and-examine-it-critically comments.
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Old 18th October 2017, 06:27 AM   #55
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I saw Jori's mum, briefly, when I first visited the breeder when he was nine weeks old. She was shy though and we didn't interact. She had three babies to look after of course. I did see the household, and the other cats, and petted Jori himself. I also saw dad, who was a real charmer of a tomcat, outside in a run with a couple of neutered companions.

I first saw Caramel when he was 24 hours old, when my singing teacher took me into the kitchen and said, "look what we've got here!" I immediately started angling for the marmalade one. I watched him and his brother and sister grow up over the next 13 weeks, and even supplied flea and worming treatment and gave the kittens their first vaccination.

But the best cat of all was brought into my surgery one evening to be put down.
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Old 18th October 2017, 06:28 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
In some areas out here where I live, ticks are a constant battle. I've been in homes that are just overrun; even without pets. The are so thick that even after a short walk through the brush you can find a few on your clothes, and very likely at least one latched on.

Thankfully, right here where I am has relatively "normal" concentrations of them, but I've seen families struggle to keep their kids tick free, let alone the dogs.

The county sprays for mosquitos every year now, and I almost think that might be helping to keep the tick population down, because as I type this I realize it's been a few years since I've seen anyone really infested.

That's amazing. No wonder there's been so much Lyme disease in some areas of the USA. Really, we only see ticks in penny numbers.
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Old 18th October 2017, 07:36 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I want to be able to purchase genetically superior and rarer breeds of animals because mixed mutts are beneath consideration.

Also, pit bulls should be genocided.
I had an experience walking my dog a few months ago that might explain this post in part. I crossed paths with an older gentleman at the park who was walking his dogs. We had crossed paths before and our dogs played. A brief conversation ensued:

Him: I used to breed pit bulls. The breed has been ruined.
Me: How so?
Him: *******. [the N word]
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Old 18th October 2017, 08:26 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'm assuming you're parodying yourself for our mutual amusement, here?
I would like to think so, but somehow can't convince myself. It is interesting because the genetic disorders of "pure-bred" dogs are among the strongest arguments against human racial segregation from a purely scientific viewpoint.

Last edited by Giordano; 18th October 2017 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 18th October 2017, 12:01 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I would like to think so, but somehow can't convince myself. It is interesting because the genetic disorders of "pure-bred" dogs are among the strongest arguments against human racial segregation from a purely scientific viewpoint.
One of the fundamental flaws in white supremacy and eugenics is the belief that survival of the fittest involves an interpretation of what is fit based on current conditions being both a constant and some sort of ideal. This leaves them room for believing that there is a direction to evolution.

Tends to get a bit mucked up when conditions change and their aesthetic idealism suddenly becomes a burden. Suddenly the fittest ends up less pleasing to their subjective eye.
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:40 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
This is a nice idea, but it doesn't go far enough if you are serious about animal rights.

Pet stores should be banned from selling live animals entirely. All pets should come from rescue centers and they should all be neutered before being adopted out.

I'm on board with the sentiment... but... if all the pets are only allowed to be acquired from rescues, and they're all required to be sterilized... we're going to run out of pets in a relatively short period of time...
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:44 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm on board with the sentiment... but... if all the pets are only allowed to be acquired from rescues, and they're all required to be sterilized... we're going to run out of pets in a relatively short period of time...
In other news, the point of gun control is to abolish guns.
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:45 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
For some anecdotal comparison, when we bought our two kittens, we got them from the Humane Society, but we got them at the local pet store. They partner up to show animals at the store. We get the animals, of course we buy a whole bunch of supplies from the pet store. We pay a fee for neutering/immunizations/etc. There's some promotional stuff thrown in, such as one month of free pet insurance, which came in awfully handy when one of our kittens got a urinary blockage 27 days after we got him, and we continued the insurance to this day, eight years later. Seems like a win for us, the Humane Society, the pet store, and the kittens. It's a good system.
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The local Pet Smart stores (and I think a few other pet store chains) do the same thing here.... they have cats (and rarely dogs) on display, but they are from the local humane society. (This is up in Canada btw.)
Pretty common practice. We got our kitties from NOAH, but several of our friends got theirs at the various local pet supply stores, which act in collaboration with a variety of shelter organizations.
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:47 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Seeing this thread, I've only now realised that a "rescue dog" isn't a dog that rescues people from under collapsed buildings and stuff.
FWIW, you are not alone in it taking several posts to realize that. Complicated by the fact that there actually are "search and rescue dogs" out there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_and_rescue_dog
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:50 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Don't most pet stores do this already? PetSmart, Petco and the local chain I go to here in Florida don't sell dogs and cats. All have adoption groups in house who will help you adopt a pet. I've had to stop going to one store on weekends because the big sad eyes of the greyhound rescue dogs are wearing me down.
It's the nuanced difference between "Pet Supply Store" and a "Pet Store". I very rarely see actual Pet Stores anymore.

ETA: Although a lot of pet supply stores have no problems selling various birds, fishes, small rodents, ferrets, bunnies, etc. and nobody complains about them being mistreated. I've also never heard of a "kitten mill". Maybe it's just dogs that are mistreated. I dunno.
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:53 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In other news, the point of gun control is to abolish guns.
Sorry, I'm surprisingly ignorant about the mating habits of firearms...
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Old 18th October 2017, 04:05 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's the nuanced difference between "Pet Supply Store" and a "Pet Store". I very rarely see actual Pet Stores anymore.

ETA: Although a lot of pet supply stores have no problems selling various birds, fishes, small rodents, ferrets, bunnies, etc. and nobody complains about them being mistreated. I've also never heard of a "kitten mill". Maybe it's just dogs that are mistreated. I dunno.
I've encountered a few cat breeders...shudder, twitch....back away slowly and don't stop smiling.
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Old 18th October 2017, 04:43 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I've encountered a few cat breeders...shudder, twitch....back away slowly and don't stop smiling.
I imagine that the difference between cat breeders and dog breeders is a fair bit more extreme than the difference between cat owners and dog owners... which is already a sizable gap.
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Old 18th October 2017, 05:32 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Odd, we've gotten 2 dogs from breeders - one that lived 4 years longer than normal for the breed and one that is alive and well at 15. We also saved 5 street dogs when we lived in Mexico, 3 that were placed in homes in the US and 2 that we kept.

Anecdotes for the win!
Mine is worse. Therefore point to me!

For those wondering the "breeder" was reported and eventually arrested after an investigation.
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Old 18th October 2017, 10:17 PM   #69
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I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting a specific dog breed, and this law really does seem to be heading down that path. Sometimes it's OK to know what you want. IMO, it beats returning a rescue because it didn't work out.

I knew I needed a dog I could pick up; I did not want a "toy" breed; for the same reason I did not want one with a very exotic coat that might indicate excessive inbreeding. I couldn't handle getting a golden retriever with an 8-year lifespan. And I wanted a puppy. It was almost a maternal thing.

There are moral argument for adopting mutts and there are a few practical reasons not to as well. I know pit bulls can be very sweet, but their massive jaws frankly scare me, and the idea that the animal may have been bred and/or socialized for aggression means I would probably not be comfortable adopting one.

My dog doesn't conform particularly well to breed standards which I see as a plus - potentially indicating she's not the the product of extremely close inbreeding. And of course she was spayed immediately.

Making it illegal to buy or sell a "purebred" dog seems overly intrusive to me. Inspections and licensing are fine IMO. The woman I got my dachshund from was also on the board of a local rescue, which was somewhat reassuring.
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Old 18th October 2017, 10:29 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I imagine that the difference between cat breeders and dog breeders is a fair bit more extreme than the difference between cat owners and dog owners... which is already a sizable gap.
There's a neuter-and-release effort (for the cats) in my mom's "campus of care" complex. They may be tolerated for rodent control. Still, kittens pop up. If I could get one of these feral ones young for proper socialization I'd probably do it. My dog would like a kitty and my mother, 93, would be overjoyed. As it is, sharing the dog with her is probably her greatest pleasure in life, and the dog is also happy having her "pack" together whenever other family visit. But I'm just goofy for dachshunds anyway. Hope I'm not doing anything morally heinous.
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Old 18th October 2017, 11:06 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's amazing. No wonder there's been so much Lyme disease in some areas of the USA. Really, we only see ticks in penny numbers.
Over here, Brad Paisley had a country hit about wanting to check his girlfriend for ticks.
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Old 20th October 2017, 02:04 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Just to be contrary...it can be really difficult to prevent or remove fleas or ticks from a litter of puppies.

Most of the medications can't be applied until they're about 8 weeks old.

They chew flea collars off of each other, so there's nothing but bits scattered round even just a few hours of putting them on.

Some of the shampoos are good for getting rid of them, but the chemicals wash right off in the rinse so it doesn't protect them.

The only real way to prevent them is try to keep the whole house (assuming the dogs are indoors) bug proof, which is hard to do even without dogs. If someone -anyone- gets too far behind the curve, the costs for extermination can be astronomical.

Sometimes I think the term "reputable breeders" is just used as a synonym for "wealthy breeders". Those who are making their living breeding dogs and forced to keep the expenses low are dumped into the "backyard breeders" column, regardless of how conscientious they are about providing the best care possible under the circumstances.
Maybe it is a regional thing (I hear horror stories about Florida), but around here flea bombing, collars, shampoos, baths, etc. are all way past the sell by date in terms of flea management. Vacuuming is all that is needed environmentally, and medications can be given as soon as 4-6 weeks depending on the drug, before the puppies should be sold or are even legally allowed to be sold. Mom and any dogs in the environment should have been on preventative anyway if you are going to be a breeder worth your salt, so there shouldn't be eggs in the den in the first place.

Regardless, no excuse to have puppies full of ticks you are putting up for sale. You take them off. It's just a sign of negligence. Heck, I'd say even one. It's not like they have the fur to hide anything from the briefest of glances.
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Last edited by Tsukasa Buddha; 20th October 2017 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 20th October 2017, 03:01 AM   #73
Rolfe
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I had huge success with Program (lufenuron), against fleas, but people don't seem to be using it now. I don't know why but I think it might be the expense, and that it only addresses fleas. I think there is/was an oral version for dogs, but cats had to have an injection every six months which I suppose added to the cost and put people off.

Also some people were suggesting that lufenuron might be implicated in feline vaccine-related sarcoma, which would obviously be a big disincentive. I think the newest research suggests that only FeLV and rabies vaccines have been definitely linked to the condition though.
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Old 20th October 2017, 03:27 AM   #74
paulhutch
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's amazing. No wonder there's been so much Lyme disease in some areas of the USA. Really, we only see ticks in penny numbers.
You won't find deer ticks, the only species that transmits Lyme Disease, in that kind of quantity anywhere. It's usually one of the eight other species of tick. Also it is very easy to eliminate deer ticks on your property, simply remove all the fallen leaves, they can only live in areas of leaf litter where white tailed deer and white footed (deer) mice pass by.

The species that I've personally encountered with huge populations in a small area is the dog tick and fortunately here in N.E. they do not carry any disease that affects humans.

Heres a good guide to the species from the University of RI:
http://www.tickencounter.org/tick_id...ickid_nonflash
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