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#41 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 26,394
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right |
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#42 |
Slide Rulez 4 Life
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,127
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Let's see...
I have had Heiwa admit that a buidling will still stand even if all but one structural support were removed, regardless of the load bearing capacity of that support. I also recall Terral (I've seen a few posts of his pop up on CTSTDT) insisting that heat transfer throughout a metal structure instantaneously to all points. So that in order to heat the steel in one area (like, say, above a fire) to any degree, the whole structure will have to heat up with it. Jammonius is too easy... |
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It is sad that this is necessary: Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly." Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly." [X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis |
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#43 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,425
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My boss told me to stop procrastinating. I think I will… tomorrow. |
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#44 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
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Well, that is mostly true Red. Most fires in steel framed structures do cause some thermal expansion. BUT, it is minimal at best. Maybe a few cm. at the most. And usually not over large areas.
Now, the SFRM in 7WTC was rated for about 2 hours. This gives plenty of time for evacuations and for the firefighters to extinguish the fire. Now, when that fire is allowed to burn uncontrolled for 7 hours (3.5 Xs it's rated protection time) what do you expect to happen? Just about any office fire will get hot enough to cause thermal expansion. Hell, a hot day in Florida causes thermal expansion in steel and concrete too. Why is this such a suprise? Thermal expansion is deadly to steel framed structures. This has been known for years. |
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#45 |
NWO Master Conspirator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
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#46 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,862
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#47 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
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I wonder if Dave will pounce on you for mostly agreeing and essentially phrasing it the same way I did, namely: "Most fires in steel framed structures do cause some thermal expansion." This is what I stated I simply suspected.
Also, you've proven to be one of the more calm and civil posters I've encountered here, so we can have a productive discussion absent the invenctive, regardless of your unfortunate baseball loyalties. I don't think I can restate it any more possible ways that I'm not contesting whether thermal expansion occurred in WTC 7, I'm questioning whether it resulted in what NIST said, since as you pointed out, thermal expansion happens in fires, why did it bring the bldg down in this one, since it's never brought a steel framed high rise down before? My final point on this is that you are suggesting that the fires burned for 7 hours, do you actually think it burned in one location for that long? Of course it didn't so why suggest that the fires burned twice their rating, when the fire had to move around the floors to consume more fuel? |
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(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#48 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,854
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#49 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 876
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Because of the rare combination of long span floors, unfought fires,a composite floor system the didn't have the studs at that location, and connections that weren't designed to deal with thermal expansion.
It's all in the NIST report.
Quote:
If you have a better way of predicting the floor steel and concrete temps than what NIST used, feel free to present it. |
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#50 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,397
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------ Eric Pode of Croydon Chief Assistant to the Assistance Chief, Dept of Redundancy Dept. |
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#51 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 26,394
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I suppose RedIbis is right about one thing: this is also untrue. All fires in all structures cause thermal expansion. Other than some extremely exotic materials, any form of heating of any kind of structure causes thermal expansion. The belief among truthers that thermal expansion was made up by NIST is one of the most bizarre developments in the sorry saga of 9/11 truth.
Dave |
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right |
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#52 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 7,856
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Replying to OP here. There is so much in the truther world that is mind-boggling in its stupidity that it is difficult to choose, but I'm going to have to go with Jammonius refering to the plane in the videos as a "shadow thingy". Of course, the whole thread where he cited videos of the planes hitting the towers as evidence that no plane hit the towers was one of the most astounding exercises in self-debunking I have ever seen.
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#53 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,450
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too many to list.
but my fav is a guy i know in real life. it's been 10 months and he still thinks free fall is a speed. and just when he thought he had it, he started saying "accelerated free fall"; as if there is an unaccelerated free fall. now he's just back to calling it free fall speed. |
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For as the NWO are higher than the people, so are their ways higher than your ways, and their thoughts than your thoughts. (A amalgam of Isaiah 55:9 & truther logic) |
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#54 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,593
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That "No Planes" were involved, but thousands managed see & hear the planes with their eyes & ears.
That "holograms" were used to disguise "missiles". That Flight 93 was "shot down" near Shanksville, PA. (I live 20 miles North of the town & Flt. 93 wasn't "shot down". At Johnstown Airport, we only got Apache Helicopters & even they wouldn't have brought down Flt. 93, due to the fact that they fly slow to catch a plane going 500 mph. Beat that Truthers!) You all know the rest! ![]() |
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#55 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
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Dave, Dave, Dave, semantics and strawmen are no way to have a civil discussion. Who said that NIST made up thermal expansion?
What's being questioned (I can't believe how many times I have to say this) is that thermal expansion causes column collapse and then column collapse causes global collapse. But I can see why you want to avoid defending these unsupported claims. |
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(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#56 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,854
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Do you have an alternative theory that explains all the known facts as well as the NIST model, and is better supported?
We're dying to hear it! If you don't have any such theory, is it then fair to say that your personal incredulity about the NIST model is no better supported than the model itself? |
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#57 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,397
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------ Eric Pode of Croydon Chief Assistant to the Assistance Chief, Dept of Redundancy Dept. |
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#58 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
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(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#59 |
Dreaming of unicorns
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
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![]() Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. |
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#60 |
このマスクによっ
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,775
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Isn't there also something referred to as flash point, or ignition point which establishes a minimum temperature at which materials begin to, and sustain combustion? Something similar to the whole issue of why windows shatter in many building fires...
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My new side hobby.... giving online game cheaters a rough time ._. Current Set:http://i.imgur.com/IoqiUdK.jpg |
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#61 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 876
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#62 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
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Yes, also know as their ignition point. All flammable materials have an ignition point. Suprisingly, paper has one of the highest of common materials. Plastic in general light at a lower temp than paper.
Suprising? Yes. True though. http://www.economypoint.org/i/ignition-temperature.html Here is a neat little link I love to use. http://webbook.nist.gov/ |
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#63 |
Muse
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 521
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I once called into a conspiracy theorist radio show because they were getting all cocky about how they're right and the skeptics are wrong. By far the dumbest thing I heard was another caller who said that someone ran a test where they dropped a bowling ball through all these sheets of glass and timed it, and apparently it was longer than the time it took for the twin towers to collapse, so doesn't that prove a conspiracy? And the two hosts, after hearing the question, were totally on board with it. Comparing the collapse of one of the most intricately-designed buildings in the world with a bowling ball breaking through glass. I believe this is where I say lol.
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http://911debunker.livejournal.com |
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#64 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 26,394
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right |
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#65 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
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I have an anecdote from the other side just for the balance.
This one always makes me laugh. It was about how small the fires really were in the Towers. I dropped a little bait by remarking that 'those fires could have been knocked down with two lines' Of course they puffed up their feathers and piled in saying how ridiculous that was and that the fires were massive. Grizzly was frantically waving his arms and warning them in the background to no avail ? I guess the PM's were flying too. Sigh....I really enjoyed hitting them between the eyes with the live audio of the fire chief on the 78th floor saying that ' there were only two isolated pockets of fire that they could knock down with two lines' Grizzly seemed to get really mad when I said 'Good fishing today, eh Grizzly ' or words to that effect. There have been many such memorable occasions. |
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*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together *A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough * To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal' |
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#66 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 346
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Fundemental atheist. Prepared to kill to prove there is nothing worth dying for. |
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#67 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 21,050
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#68 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,854
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Hehe
That one is pretty high on my list of truther stupidities. I mean truthers misconstruing a statement about local conditions (78th floor, well below impact zone and the several floors that were heavily engulfed in massive fires) as being representative of overall conditions. |
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#69 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 26,394
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Ah yes, the classic truther stupidity of assuming that Oreo Palmer could see every floor of the South Tower from inside the 78th floor, and that his report that there were two isolated pockets of fire on the 78th floor therefore meant that there were no other fires on the 79th, 80th, 81st, 82nd,....
Poor bill smith, poster-boy for the Dunning-Kroeger effect. Even when he tries to be clever he ends up making himself look stupid. Dave |
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right |
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#70 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,397
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------ Eric Pode of Croydon Chief Assistant to the Assistance Chief, Dept of Redundancy Dept. |
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#71 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
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Delete:
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*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together *A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough * To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal' |
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#72 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,593
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#73 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,642
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Stundie - arguing with Stundie is the most stupid truther Ive ever encountered.
Bill is a runner up though, it was a tough choice. |
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#74 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,796
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#75 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
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That's a very interesting minimum ten-minute delay between me deleting my post and you quoting the full text of it.
How would that work now with single poster-single reply ? It's odd isn't it ? I can't imagine any normal poster taking ten minutes over such an inane reply either Looks like I have another interesting anecdote for the future... |
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*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together *A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough * To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal' |
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#76 |
I AM the Red Worm!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,452
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Maybe he quoted it, started to reply, but had something else to attend to? I routinely do that...
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I'll be the best Congressman money can buy! As usual, he doesn't understand the relevant sciences, can't Google for the right thing, and appears to rely on the notion that a word salad liberally sprinkled with Google Croutons will make his argument seem coherent. -JayUtah |
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#77 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
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That's a very interesting minimum ten-minute delay between me deleting my post and you quoting the full text of it.
How would that work now with single poster-single reply ? It's odd isn't it ? I can't imagine any normal poster taking ten minutes over such an inane reply either Looks like I have another interesting anecdote for the future... |
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*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together *A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough * To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal' |
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#78 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,910
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Truthers aren't stupid. They know when they're spreading fictions. They just don't care.
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#79 |
このマスクによっ
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,775
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My new side hobby.... giving online game cheaters a rough time ._. Current Set:http://i.imgur.com/IoqiUdK.jpg |
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#80 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,593
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I was agonizing and agonizing over my reply, I wanted to make sure it was just right.
Actually I just got distracted, I'll be sure to ask your permission before replying next time. Let's hope your future anecdotes aren't as braindead as your last one. I was agonizing and agonizing over my reply, I wanted to make sure it was just right. Actually I just got distracted, I'll be sure to ask your permission before replying next time. Let's hope your future anecdotes aren't as braindead as your last one. |
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