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Old 18th September 2017, 11:55 AM   #121
beachnut
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Since the official government investigation on WTC 7 has not only been proven to be inadequate, but actual scientific fraud, every liar's attitude is now literally "oh well, talking about it on the internet is good enough". Nice one. How many thousands are we at from 9/11-related deaths?
Let us count the number of lies you found from 9/11 truth liars, a club named truth to fool the gullible fringe few, 9/11 truth followers.

1 LIE - WTC 7 investigation ... proven to be inadequate.

2 LIES - WTC 7 investigation scientific fraud.

Not a lie, thousands of people were killed by 19 terrorists on 9/11.

Only two lies. Is that up to 9/11 truth standards.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Whenever the NFPA 921 is brought up, liars resort to quote mining and BS "technicalities" to argue that the worst fire-related disaster in history doesn't deserve the best investigation.
Oops, another lie.

LIE - "doesn't deserve the best investigation" A lie due to massive logic failure, inability to connect the dots to a logical conclusion. A failed conclusion, a weak attack on others.

What is one big reason to investigate a fire. To find the cause. Do I need to get out NFPA 921 (do you own a copy) to figure out who and what caused the fires on 9/11? Nope, we can all see (if we try) it was terrorists in two planes at the WTC.

Are you saying not one of the NIST scientists, engineers, consultants, workers used guidelines/techniques/procedures when working on the WTC disaster?

Oh noes, fireballs, in a fire. Now that is special.

Just to be clear...
Quote:
Ron DiFrancesco: "We heard this loud roar, and looked down to the right and saw this huge fireball coming at us and I just yelled at them to run. And I was trying to get out, and i was- the fireball hit me and knocked me down and I woke up three days later in Saint Vincent's."
Fire did it, not an explosive, not thermite. Now what?
An explosive would kill Ron. You lost this time trying to back in CD into a fire event. You should have studied NFPA 921, it might help you understand witness statements, characteristics of explosives, and more so your lack of knowledge and expertise in fire science is not fuel for wild speculation and the CD fantasy.

Ron says it was fire, a loud roar. Not a lion, not explosives, but Fire, F-I-R-E. I agree with Ron, fire does make a loud roar in some cases when there is a back draft. If you hear a loud roar in a fire, beware, run faster, escape as soon as possible. The loud roar is evidence for fire or a Lion, not explosives.

I thought you would have to work at spreading more BS.

"A good first step for any investigation would be to read" NFPA 921 instead of making up BS about it. Which part is the problem?
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Last edited by beachnut; 18th September 2017 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 18th September 2017, 11:58 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Are you a bot? You didn't respond to the Ron DiFrancesco stuff at all. He was injured by a fiery explosion while escaping from the South Tower. He had the burns to prove it.
It should be obvious to anyone of more than meagre intelligence that burns alone are evidence only of heat, and that anyone close enough to an explosion to suffer burns would also suffer blast injuries.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
On the sounds of explosions issue, it is a matter of historical fact that WTC 7 emitted a loud percussive noise which was louder than the rest of the collapse itself.
That statement shows an extraordinary level of obtuseness. One would expect a 47 storey building, while collapsing, to emit a series of loud percussive sounds, and almost inevitable that those sounds would have different volumes; one, therefore, must be louder than the rest. What has never been reported, though, is a series of sharp, relatively high-pitched explosions preceding the initiation of collapse. Percussive sounds during the collapse would need to violate causality in order to be the cause of collapse.

(It's also known that some versions of the collapse videos have had explosions edited into them by truthers. Just saying.)

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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

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Old 18th September 2017, 11:58 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Well, there is certainly a lot of energy in a hurricane, but I'm not sure how they imagine it can be harnessed on command: Millions of portable wind turbines maybe?
Actually that's not bad!

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Old 18th September 2017, 12:05 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Actually, they were told by an "engineer" at around 11:30 AM that WTC 7 would collapse "in five or six hours". I don't know for sure if there was creaking at that time, but a lot of things can cause creaking, and that can not be used to justify such bizarrely precise advanced knowledge.
No, there were hundreds of firefighters in the area around WTC7. As the day wore on they had to move back because it was clear the building was in trouble, and since two buildings had already collapsed from fire it was a safe bet 7 was doomed too.

WTC 7's final death took 20 minutes, hundreds of firefighters heard or saw the evidence of internal collapse.

Tell us about your extensive firefighting experience, does your ladder company work tall buildings? I only ask because you wrote:

Quote:
I don't know for sure if there was creaking at that time, but a lot of things can cause creaking, and that can not be used to justify such bizarrely precise advanced knowledge
How many burning high-rise buildings have you been around? I'd love to know all the variables so I can better understand what a "Normal Fire" is.

Fact is you have no real world experience with this subject matter. Neither do I, which means when actual experts explain what happened I STFU about it, or ask specific questions about the parts I don't understand, and then listen to the answer.

WTC7 is a structural failure due to fire and unspecified damage from debris from WTC1. Nobody died in WTC7, and it collapsed as part of the attack of the WTC in which 2 commercial jetliners were used as missiles to strike the Twin Towers. There is not a lot to investigate. The NIST report did the best they could, and got most of it right. There are debates among structural engineers over the NIST report, and while I don't pretend to understand their arguments, it does seem mostly like quibbling over load-bearing joints, beams, and stuff I'm not qualified to assess. What I do know is that any WTC7 report is academic, and serves only as useful information for future structural engineers to draw upon to make their designs safer - and the NIST reports for WTC1,2, and 7 did that.
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:06 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It should be obvious to anyone of more than meagre intelligence that burns alone are evidence only of heat, and that anyone close enough to an explosion to suffer burns would also suffer blast injuries.



That statement shows an extraordinary level of obtuseness. One would expect a 47 storey building, while collapsing, to emit a series of loud percussive sounds, and almost inevitable that those sounds would have different volumes; one, therefore, must be louder than the rest. What has never been reported, though, is a series of sharp, relatively high-pitched explosions preceding the initiation of collapse. Percussive sounds during the collapse would need to violate causality in order to be the cause of collapse.
...But that was before the East Penthouse dropped.

See here: https://isgp-studies.com/911-wtc-7-c...xplosions-wtc7

Quote:
(It's also known that some versions of the collapse videos have had explosions edited into them by truthers. Just saying.)

Dave
I only know of that one made by Edward Current.
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:08 PM   #126
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Axxman300, you often say very dim things like "you can see the bullet entry on the Zapruder Film" so I will never take your posts seriously. But I ask, do you think the WTC 7 foreknowledge was based on pure coincidental luck or an educate guess?
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:13 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I hardly know where to start with this exercise in throwing **** on a wall to see if some sticks. It doesn't actually say that an engineer said at 11:30 that WTC7 would collapse; it tries to extrapolate the earliest possible time for anyone to be concerned about collapse and marry it up to the greatest possible level of certainty that was expressed at any other time. It says that firefighters were concerned that early that WTC7 might collapse, because it was on fire and they had no water to fight the fires; so what? They'd just seen two bigger buildings collapse. And it claims that the firefighters couldn't have known WTC7 was on fire because there were no photos showing the fire before 12:10; how stupid do you have to be to believe that firemen could look at a building, see it was burning, but not realise it was burning because nobody had shown them any photos of it burning?

Really, if this is your idea of an authoritative source, I've got this bridge you may want to buy.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
A good first step for any investigation would be to track down this person and ask plenty of questions.
A better first step would be for you to tell us all what form you would like the investigation to take. Scroll up; I can't be bothered repeating the full question a third time, as I know you're going to evade it.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:14 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
... so I will never take your posts seriously. But I ask, do you think the WTC 7 foreknowledge was based on pure coincidental luck or an educate guess?
WTC 7 was on fire, fires not fought. Firefighters might think it is possible for a building to fail in fire, it is fire science. It appears you failed to read NFPA 921, and learn before you speculate about the CD fantasy. There was no evidence for explosives, loud noises barely audible on a video are not evidence for explosives.

lol, JFK fantasy CTs, are not valid reason for not taking your posts seriously... The BS you post is evidence for not taking your posts seriously. The cool part, you can recycle your JFK CT evidence with 9/11 CTs, no evidence in the CT world, is a great start for an endless Gish Gallop of woo.
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:18 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Axxman300, you often say very dim things like "you can see the bullet entry on the Zapruder Film" so I will never take your posts seriously.
Way to get an answer.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
But I ask, do you think the WTC 7 foreknowledge was based on pure coincidental luck or an educate guess?
Let me ask you: Do you think that a group of firefighters who've just seen two skyscrapers collapse after being damaged, set on fire and allowed to burn, might think that a third skyscraper right next to them that's been damaged (they could see massive amounts of damage, as they all report), set on fire and left to burn (they didn't have water to fight it) was also going to collapse? Or do you think it's such a bizarrely stupid idea that they should never have considered the possibility, even though their lives quite literally depended on it?

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:23 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Axxman300, you often say very dim things like "you can see the bullet entry on the Zapruder Film" so I will never take your posts seriously. But I ask, do you think the WTC 7 foreknowledge was based on pure coincidental luck or an educate guess?
False dichotomy.

Surveyor's transit.
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:27 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
A good first step for any investigation would be to track down this person and ask plenty of questions.

To pose Dave Rogers' important questions in a different way: WHO do you think should track down this person and ask questions?

If the investigators doing the tracking down cannot do so using publicly available records alone, should the investigation end at that point? If not, what private records or secure public records should be made available for their use? If the owners and guardians of those records say, "sorry, I don't feel like showing those records to you, go get stuffed," how should the investigators be prepared to respond?

If when asked questions after being tracked down the person replies, "sorry, I don't feel like answering your questions, go get stuffed," how should the questioner be prepared to respond?
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:15 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Since the official government investigation on WTC 7 has not only been proven to be inadequate, but actual scientific fraud..............
You keep saying this but, I've not seen one credible source indicating this statement is true. Who exactly has this been proven to, you?
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Old 18th September 2017, 02:12 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Since the official government investigation on WTC 7 has not only been proven to be inadequate, but actual scientific fraud, every liar's attitude is now literally "oh well, talking about it on the internet is good enough". Nice one. How many thousands are we at from 9/11-related deaths?
What, begging the question and strawman arguments on the JFK assassination thread isn't good enough, you have to utilize the same logical fallacies here?

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Old 18th September 2017, 04:39 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Way to get an answer.



Let me ask you: Do you think that a group of firefighters who've just seen two skyscrapers collapse after being damaged, set on fire and allowed to burn, might think that a third skyscraper right next to them that's been damaged (they could see massive amounts of damage, as they all report), set on fire and left to burn (they didn't have water to fight it) was also going to collapse? Or do you think it's such a bizarrely stupid idea that they should never have considered the possibility, even though their lives quite literally depended on it?

Dave
Ah, I see that you have taken on the "traumatized firefighters" defense. So you think it was a purely lucky coincidence that the engineer knew that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours" after it had been damaged by the North Tower collapse for only ONE HOUR. The fires weren't that bad by then, if they even existed (the first photographic evidence for fires appears by 12:10 PM). So, if you were to ever revert to the "educated guess" hypothesis, you could be exposing the flaw in your thinking. You can't know if, how, and when a robust steel skyscraper would collapse if it had only been damaged for one hour.
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Old 18th September 2017, 04:41 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
False dichotomy.

Surveyor's transit.
did you read the reddit post I linked earlier? The surveyor's transit could have just picked up insignificant warping of the perimeter from the fires. Does not and can not explain the collapse that happened.
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Old 18th September 2017, 04:50 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Since the official government investigation on WTC 7 has not only been proven to be inadequate, but actual scientific fraud, every liar's attitude is now literally "oh well, talking about it on the internet is good enough". Nice one. How many thousands are we at from 9/11-related deaths?
Other than citing a CT, who indicates that the investigation was inadequate? Or scientific fraud? Get some credible statements and or reports. WTC7 collapsed from burning unabated for seven hours on multiple floors. Plain and simple easy for even a layman as yourself to figure out cause and effect.
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Old 18th September 2017, 05:50 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
That's not even half of the important stuff, and what that comment did address is only "refuted" with BS. For example, they imply that explosions that cause fire were not seen with the WTC. We know this is false. Want witnesses who saw fireballs DURING THE ACTUAL COLLAPSE shooting out of the ground floors? Look no further than Ron DeFranceso or reporter Carol Martin. DeFrancesco even had the burns to prove it!

The NFPA 921 does not have legal power, it's just a collection of the bare minimum of what you can do. And they didn't even follow that for the worst disaster ever!
Geez, what material other than high explosives and nano-banano-fofano therm*t was known to be at the scene?

If someone wants to play the exord in the building card in the 9/11 attacks, somebody with burns with blast injuries is weak stuff. Burn injuries from explosive detonation only come in at 4th place (out of 4) on the trauma medicine blast injury treatment checklist, and yes, that's in descending order..

I know Hollywood loves their fireballs and movie goers love 'em too, but that isn't what happens when explosives detonate - there is a very high temperature expansion of high velocity gas at the moment of detonation, but for the most part any fire at a detonation point comes from materials ignited by that expanding gas - watch this video -M18A1 Claymore AP mine:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


1lb. C4 plastic explosive. Watch as many times as you like, small bright flash, no fireball.

Lets go bigger:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


500 lb. Mk82 aerial bomb - iirc just under 200 lbs. TNT mix with filler.

More flash, still no Hollywood fireball. You can use the counter on the video to gwet a rough idea of how long the flash lasts at the moment of detonation.

Lets get bigger:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


1000 lb. Mk 83 aerial bomb w/ JDAM package, 440 M/L Lbs of TNT mix as the MK 82. Watch that detonation and time that flash.

So in light of reality, what is the most reasonable explanation for a fireball reported by witnesses and what materials were proven to be at the scene of the 9/11?
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Old 18th September 2017, 05:55 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
So in light of reality, what is the most reasonable explanation for a fireball reported by witnesses and what materials were proven to be at the scene of the 9/11?
Just slap "military grade" on it and anything is possible. The capabilities are only restricted by the imagination...........
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:02 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
did you read the reddit post I linked earlier? The surveyor's transit could have just picked up insignificant warping of the perimeter from the fires. Does not and can not explain the collapse that happened.
Sure did! It was easily the silliest god damn thing I have seen in days!

which was your favorite part? I loved this:

One does not have to discuss physics or fire dynamics to argue that WTC 7 was demolished intentionally.

Oh mercy!

But this is fantastic too:

Quote:
Welcome to /r/911truth! The purpose of this subreddit is to present and discuss evidence showing that the US Government's version of the events of 9/11 cannot possibly be true. Submissions or comments supporting the official version, including links to sites purporting to "debunk" the 9/11 Truth Movement (depending on context), are considered off-topic here.
Although the surveyor's transit "could" blah blah blah bull **** was good too.

Great find, I love me some humor!
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:20 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Are you a bot? You didn't respond to the Ron DiFrancesco stuff at all. He was injured by a fiery explosion while escaping from the South Tower. He had the burns to prove it.
His injuries had nothing to do with explosives, which is why I have challenged you to provide timelines where explosions were heard as the buildings collapsed and you failed to provide those timelines as requested. I have challenged truthers over the years to provide such timelines and no one truther had been able to provide such timelines. In addition, I have called out truthers over the years who've posted doctored videos depicting explosions. In fact, I even warned truthers about certain doctored videos depicting explosions and amazingly, there were truthers who'd posted the same videos that I had warned were doctored with sounds of explosions. Simply amazing how they posted their ignorance for all to see unaware that I had posted such warnings beforehand about those doctored videos. Here's one video that was used by truthers against me and one of which I had warned truthers about.

Truther's WTC 7 CD Video Evidence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiUOMtUTtAs


Now, let's take a look at the rest of the story.


They Fell For My Hoax 9/11 Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8VAsoVuShM


[quote]
Quote:
On the sounds of explosions issue, it is a matter of historical fact that WTC 7 emitted a loud percussive noise which was louder than the rest of the collapse itself. One witness described it as a "clap of thunder". It appears at the same time in the CBS video and the Ashley Banfield video.

Let's take another look at the WTC 7 video and please provide the timeline where such explosions are heard and failing to provide us with the timeline as requested will only serve to prove my point that truthers are not interested in doing homework.


WTC 7 Collapse Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD06SAf0p9A

.

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Old 18th September 2017, 06:25 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
did you read the reddit post I linked earlier? The surveyor's transit could have just picked up insignificant warping of the perimeter from the fires. Does not and can not explain the collapse that happened.

Such buckling due to fire was a clear indication the WTC buildings were in the early process of collapsing.
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:31 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
That's not even half of the important stuff, and what that comment did address is only "refuted" with BS. For example, they imply that explosions that cause fire were not seen with the WTC. We know this is false. Want witnesses who saw fireballs DURING THE ACTUAL COLLAPSE shooting out of the ground floors? Look no further than Ron DeFranceso or reporter Carol Martin. DeFrancesco even had the burns to prove it!

Nothing to do with explosives because no explosions were seen nor heard as WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 collapsed and the ejection of dust plumes was due to compressed air which had nothing to do with explosives either.

To put it bluntly, no secondary explosions were observed when WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 suffered impact damages and no CD hardware was ever found within the rubble of at ground zero, not to mention no explosions were detected by seismographs as the WTC buildings collapsed.
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:44 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Just slap "military grade" on it and anything is possible. The capabilities are only restricted by the imagination...........
And in conspiracylandia, imagination beats training and experience.
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:45 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
https://www.reddit.com/r/911truth/co..._firefighters/

A good first step for any investigation would be to track down this person and ask plenty of questions.

Let's hear what firefighters were saying about WTC 7.


Quote:
"Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area -- (Q. A collapse zone?) -- Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed." - Chief Cruthers

"A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

Hayden: Yeah. There was enough there and we were marking off. There were a lot of damaged apparatus there that were covered. We tried to get searches in those areas. By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

WTC Building 7 appears to have suffered significant damage at some point after the WTC Towers had collapsed, according to firefighters at the scene. Firefighter Butch Brandies tells other firefighters that nobody is to go into Building 7 because of creaking and noises coming out of there. [Firehouse Magazine, 8/02]

Battalion Chief John Norman later recalls, "At the edge of the south face you could see that it is very heavily damaged." [Firehouse Magazine, 5/02]

Heavy, thick smoke rises near 7 World Trade Center. Smoke is visible from the upper floors of the 47-story building. Firefighters using transits to determine whether there was any movement in the structure were surprised to discover that is was moving. The area was evacuated and the building collapsed later in the afternoon of Sept. 11.

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:50 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
...But that was before the East Penthouse dropped.

See here: https://isgp-studies.com/911-wtc-7-c...xplosions-wtc7

Where are the CD evidence video timelines I've requested for WTC 7?
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:54 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Ah, I see that you have taken on the "traumatized firefighters" defense. So you think it was a purely lucky coincidence that the engineer knew that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours" after it had been damaged by the North Tower collapse for only ONE HOUR. The fires weren't that bad by then, if they even existed (the first photographic evidence for fires appears by 12:10 PM). So, if you were to ever revert to the "educated guess" hypothesis, you could be exposing the flaw in your thinking. You can't know if, how, and when a robust steel skyscraper would collapse if it had only been damaged for one hour.

I'm sorry but are you suggesting the fires started an hour after WTC7 was hit?

What's your evidence for this?
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:55 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
did you read the reddit post I linked earlier? The surveyor's transit could have just picked up insignificant warping of the perimeter from the fires. Does not and can not explain the collapse that happened.

Ok.

Poe?
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:57 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
A
On the sounds of explosions issue, it is a matter of historical fact that WTC 7 emitted a loud percussive noise which was louder than the rest of the collapse itself. One witness described it as a "clap of thunder". It appears at the same time in the CBS video and the Ashley Banfield video.

It if sounded like a clap of thunder, then it had nothing to do with CD explosives. Case in point can be heard in the following video CD/WTC comparisons.


Demolition Vs. World Trade Center: Audio Comparison

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmS36uSdtvw
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Old 18th September 2017, 07:05 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
did you read the reddit post I linked earlier? The surveyor's transit could have just picked up insignificant warping of the perimeter from the fires. Does not and can not explain the collapse that happened.

Let's take a look here.

Quote:
WTC 7

1) Fireman saying there was "a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors." "I would say it was probably about a third of it".

2) A laymen officer the fireman was standing next to said, "that building doesn’t look straight." He then says "It didn’t look right".

3) They put a transit on it and afterward were "pretty sure she was going to collapse."

4) They "saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13".

5) Photographic evidence of a fire directly under the penthouse which collapsed first.

6) The penthouse fell first, followed by the rest of the building shortly after.

That should help explain why after 16 years, there is still no 9/11 CD evidence.

.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 18th September 2017 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:00 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
It if sounded like a clap of thunder, then it had nothing to do with CD explosives. Case in point can be heard in the following video CD/WTC comparisons.


Demolition Vs. World Trade Center: Audio Comparison

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmS36uSdtvw
Even MJ could hear the difference.
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:40 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Just to be clear, what is the official story on the fireballs reported by Ron DiFrancesco and Carol Martin? Is it where the pressure from the collapsing upper floors shot down the office fires and then they came out like a jet from the ground floor?
Ron DiFrancesco has been adequately dealt with, but a Google search for "Carol Martin 9/11 fireball" turned up nothing other than your post. However she is listed on Linked In. I suggest that if you are interested in pursuing this, you should contact her directly. Better get there before the NWO assassination team arrives.
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:57 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Axxman300, you often say very dim things like "you can see the bullet entry on the Zapruder Film" so I will never take your posts seriously. But I ask, do you think the WTC 7 foreknowledge was based on pure coincidental luck or an educate guess?
You will never take my posts seriously because of your ego, and the fact that I used to play your pathetic games, and know everything you're going to say re: CTs.

The difference between Dealey Plaza and WTC7 is that there were THOUSANDS of firefighters (experts, men and women who have been trained, and have fought fires) in the line of sight FOR THE ENTIRE TIME BEFORE THE COLLAPSE. The NYPD Bomb Squad was there too.

This was the situation:

WTC2 and WTC1 had collapsed with thousands of people inside, many were FDNY personnel. Their trucks and equipment lay buried under the rubble. Other buildings of the WTC Complex - including WTC7 were now on fire.

People are trapped in "The Pile", FDNY's resources are crippled, water is being pumped by an ancient fireboat at the river, so the call is easy: let the buildings burn, and focus on S&R.

The chiefs set up a perimeter watch to warn of falling debris from the burning buildings, and to warn of collapse. I can't link to anything, but by 2:00pm there is an assumption that all of the buildings will eventually fall. WTC 7 was not the only one, and in the end WTC5 suffered a partial collapse - also due to fire.

Thus you have guys watching the buildings. They see WTC leaning, see evidence of internal collapse, and clear everyone out of the shadow twenty minutes before the big plunge.

If someone said at noon that WTC7 was going to collapse it was at best a conservative estimate.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:19 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Ah, I see that you have taken on the "traumatized firefighters" defense.
He's not a CTist, he understands that people have feelings.

Quote:
So you think it was a purely lucky coincidence that the engineer knew that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours" after it had been damaged by the North Tower collapse for only ONE HOUR.
The fires were not going to be fought, so it wasn't luck, it's basic fire science.


Quote:
The fires weren't that bad by then, if they even existed (the first photographic evidence for fires appears by 12:10 PM).
So you were there? No? Okay, so guys STANDING around WTC7 see the fires, but they don't count because there's not a picture until noon? Got it.


Quote:
So, if you were to ever revert to the "educated guess" hypothesis, you could be exposing the flaw in your thinking. You can't know if, how, and when a robust steel skyscraper would collapse if it had only been damaged for one hour
Weird, because nobody said WHEN WTC7 was coming down, just that it probably would, so the educated guess (in this case, someone with education and experience in this kind of thing) was correct.

The fact is the guy, if he existed, was standing in a death zone with body parts, wreckage, and a layer of powdered concrete. I think he gets points for thinking clearly.
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Old 19th September 2017, 01:22 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Ah, I see that you have taken on the "traumatized firefighters" defense.
And I see you've opted for the "minimize and ridicule" offense.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
So you think it was a purely lucky coincidence that the engineer knew that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours" after it had been damaged by the North Tower collapse for only ONE HOUR.
Rule of So. This is a strawman argument that I won't dignify by addressing.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The fires weren't that bad by then, if they even existed (the first photographic evidence for fires appears by 12:10 PM).
And now we have the "Pictures or it didn't happen" offense. Firemen are trained to assess the severity of fires, and will tend to do so rather than standing around taking holiday snaps. And firemen who aren't very good at assessing the severity of fires, in particular firemen who underestimate the severity of fires, are in severe danger of not remaining firemen - or, indeed, anything else other than piles of ashes - for very long.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
So, if you were to ever revert to the "educated guess" hypothesis, you could be exposing the flaw in your thinking. You can't know if, how, and when a robust steel skyscraper would collapse if it had only been damaged for one hour.
And, finally, we have the false dilemma: that the predictions of collapse were either a lucky coincidence or an educated guess. In reality, there's a continuum extending between and beyond these two arbitrarily chosen points. Early on, firemen observed a steel framed building on fire, applied their expertise and experience which tells them - as, in fact, firefighters do know but conspiracy theorists are apparently to stupid to fathom - that steel framed buildings are particularly vulnerable to collapse in fires, factored in the fact that they'd just seen two buildings collapse, and concluded that there was a significant enough risk of collapse that they would be in deadly danger if they stayed close to the building. Later in the day, more careful studies showed that the building was indeed seriously damaged and showing signs, both visible and audible, of distortion, and the likelihood of collapse became more obvious. And ultimately, when the building actually did collapse, the likelihood became so great that even a moron or a conspiracy theorist could just about figure it out, though not correctly.

But the contention of conspiracy theorists is that none of this is conceivable; that it's so unlikely that men trained to recognize when a building is likely to collapse, familiar with the well-known tendency of buildings to collapse due to major fire damage, whose lives depend on not being inside the building when it collapses, assisted by engineers whose special expertise is to assess when a building is likely to collapse, might actually have made a reasonable assessment that a building would collapse, that any such assessment can only be seen as evidence of nefarious doings. If it were a group of conspiracy theorists who made a successful prediction of this type, based on the track record of the predictions of conspiracy theorists I'd be inclined to agree; but we're talking about intelligent, competent people here.

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Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 19th September 2017, 08:17 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
did you read the reddit post I linked earlier? The surveyor's transit could have just picked up insignificant warping of the perimeter from the fires. Does not and can not explain the collapse that happened.
I was unaware that there was such a thing as "insignificant warping" of a burning 47 story building.

Your statement begs the question, at what point does that warping become "significant"?
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Old 19th September 2017, 08:43 AM   #156
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For sure if there is a super-secret conspiracy that kills thousands of people and nearly wrecks our economy, the truth will be uncovered on reddit.
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Old 19th September 2017, 08:50 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
For sure if there is a super-secret conspiracy that kills thousands of people and nearly wrecks our economy, the truth will be uncovered on reddit.
... on a truther only reddit..... that brags about not having to do physics.... and has astute and well sourced claims like the surveyors transit "could" have picked up "insignificant warping."

Quote:
Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.
Deputy Chief Peter Hayden:
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Old 19th September 2017, 08:59 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by traxy View Post
I was unaware that there was such a thing as "insignificant warping" of a burning 47 story building.

Your statement begs the question, at what point does that warping become "significant"?
"WTC7 warped in the transit in much the same way that buildings don't".

With apologies to Douglas Adams.
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:32 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
Ron DiFrancesco has been adequately dealt with, but a Google search for "Carol Martin 9/11 fireball" turned up nothing other than your post. However she is listed on Linked In. I suggest that if you are interested in pursuing this, you should contact her directly. Better get there before the NWO assassination team arrives.
Carol Martin mentioned it in a TedX Talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niJJHZ7cjvo&t=14m12s

"...I was on the west side highway when I saw the first tower fall to the ground. And I kept going, and got around by west street, and there's ash on the ground, and there are firefighters and I show them my ID and one of the firefighters said 'just walk down the middle of the road, because there's falling stuff, and there were stretchers, but nobody was on them, and paramedics waiting.

And that's when as I'm walking down I feel the ground rumble. And the firefighter ahead of me turns around, screams 'run'. I could see a fireball come out of the base of the building as- and probably the ignition of jet fuel- as the building began to collapse. But you don't have time to look at those things. I turned, I fell, he grabbed me by my waist, threw me on my feet, and we ran, and he had the foresight to spot another building that had like a marble overhang, and he slammed me against it, and he covered my body with his. And I'll never- I could feel his heart banging my back bone because it was pounding so hard
..."
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:34 AM   #160
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So she didn't think it was an explosion.

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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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