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Old 17th October 2017, 12:52 PM   #161
benthamitemetric
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Remember how the WTC7 steel was never tested? Well, 'bout that...

https://link.springer.com/article/10...4770206X129006

It's almost as if truthers look for info on these subjects every where except where they can actually find it. Why not just pop over to google scholar and spend 5 min searching before wasting 5+ years of your life spouting nonsense? It's bizarre. As everyone but the truthers seems to realize, this whole thread is just a set of goal posts strapped to the back of the crazy train that is epistemologically crippled True Belief.
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Old 17th October 2017, 04:10 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post

It's almost as if truthers look for info on these subjects every where except where they can actually find it.
It's no secret, they look for information where they find what they believe..............

Posting against skeptics is a leap of faith. If unsuccessful in converting others, at least you tried. To be banned in the attempt is the greatest satisfaction short of conversion.
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Old 17th October 2017, 06:21 PM   #163
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Old 17th October 2017, 10:46 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I would recommend Jim Hoffman's lengthy response to Blanchard's essay.

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/blanchard/

It is evident that you have no clue whenever someone plays you because you are not in the habit of doing homework. Case in point:

Quote:
August 8, 2006: No Explosives Used in WTC Collapse, Says Demolition Industry Leader

Brent Blanchard, a leading professional and writer in the controlled demolition industry, publishes a 12-page report that says it refutes claims that the World Trade Center was destroyed with explosives.

http://www.historycommons.org/entity...nt_blanchard_1


Fire, Not Extra Explosives, Doomed Buildings, Expert Says Van Romero, vice president, New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology

A New Mexico explosives expert says he now believes there were no explosives in the World Trade Center towers, contrary to comments he made the day of the Sept. 11 terrorist attack.

"Certainly the fire is what caused the building to fail," said Van Romero, a vice president at the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology. The day of the attack, Romero told the Journal the towers' collapse, as seen in news videotapes, looked as though it had been triggered by carefully placed explosives.

Subsequent conversations with structural engineers and more detailed looks at the tape have led Romero to a different conclusion. Romero supports other experts, who have said the intense heat of the jet fuel fires weakened the skyscrapers' steel structural beams to the point that they gave way under the weight of the floors above. That set off a chain reaction, as upper floors pancaked onto lower ones.

http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/...ns/romero.html


What Seismic Data Revealed about the Collapse of the WTC Buildings

The report issued by Lamont-Doherty includes various graphs showing the seismic readings produced by the planes crashing into the two towers as well as the later collapse of both buildings. WhatReallyHappened.com chooses to display only one graph (Graph 1), which shows the readings over a 30-minute time span.

On that graph, the 8- and 10-second collapses appear--misleadingly--as a pair of sudden spikes. Lamont-Doherty's 40-second plot of the same data (Graph 2) gives a much more detailed picture: The seismic waves--blue for the South Tower, red for the North Tower--start small and then escalate as the buildings rumble to the ground. Translation: no bombs.

http://www.southerncrossreview.org/41/9-11.htm

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Old 18th October 2017, 01:21 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The truth from a debunker: Standard protocol doesn't have to be followed because f%*$ conspiracy theorists and f!&% over 3000 victims whose deaths deserve the clarity of history. Transparency in history should be a right. Things like inside jobs and conspiracies need to be investigated on a routine basis. Concerned citizens and survivors deserve to know.But here we're just talking about standard arson investigation protocols as outlined in the NFPA. I think a proper investigation that isn't a fraud should be done, even if there's no legal inclination to.
Every time a poster makes a clear point that refutes your JAQing off nonsense you resort to some variation of the above bolded nonsense.

The second bolded is straight out of the CT handbook. Professionals investigate (whatever incident) and some know-nothing comes along and asserts that because the investigation didn't consider (whatever, the ignoring of psychic tips seems to show up often in notorious crimes) the investigation wasn't thorough or was a fraud.

Throw the ******** card as often as you feel necessary, but anybody reading your threads can make up their mind about who knows what and who doesn't - you're permanently fixed in the later category.
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Old 18th October 2017, 04:37 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The FBI didn't test for molten/evaporated steel or concrete despite having possible physical specimens for it, so I don't know what you're implying they would find. The thing about explosive devices is that they tend to explode. It sounds like you're distorting something that wasn't a proper arson investigation at all. If there was anything that could even barely qualify as a preliminary examination of the physical evidence for the use of explosives or arson with incendiaries, you would be waiving it around. But you must resort to some whisper of a time some FBI dudes walked through Fresh Kills landfill.
Didn't you say this about the FBI in another thread?

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
FBI Agents are trained to observe, remember and record what they see on a daily basis. So I think the 15-year-old testimony of O'Neil becomes significant because he was willing to communicate that the entry wound was in the lower head area.
So wouldn't the same FBI be trained to observe and record anything suspicious from the Fresh Kills investigation?
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Old 18th October 2017, 06:49 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Didn't you say this about the FBI in another thread?
I just finished with the JFK thread and noticed what you commented concerning MJ's quote. Seems to be a little clumsy of him
Quote:



So wouldn't the same FBI be trained to observe and record anything suspicious from the Fresh Kills investigation?
Yes it should, except when those observations don't support a CT's beliefs.

Last edited by bknight; 18th October 2017 at 07:03 AM. Reason: Added comment
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Old 18th October 2017, 09:21 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by FFTR View Post
You still misrepresent NFPA part you quoted.

So who would you have do the "proper investigation"?

You have shown nothing that the investigation that was done was a "fraud".
Proposal for a very inexpensive preliminary WTC reinvestigation: track down the special engineer who warned the fire chiefs that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours".
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Old 18th October 2017, 09:32 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Proposal for a very inexpensive preliminary WTC reinvestigation: track down the special engineer who warned the fire chiefs that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours".
Who should carry out this investigation, what powers they should be granted, and from what authority and under what legal framework these powers should be derived? You seem to have run away from this question last time it was asked.

Dave

ETA: BTW, this seems to be predicated on your usual MO of insisting that recollections many years after the fact are invariably 100% accurate, despite the fact that you seem to have forgotten that you were discussing this in a more appropriate thread only a month ago. Just saying.
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Old 18th October 2017, 09:46 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Proposal for a very inexpensive preliminary WTC reinvestigation: track down the special engineer who warned the fire chiefs that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours".
That should be a really short investigation:

Investigator: How did you know the building was going to collapse?

Engineer: It was on fire, and FDNY didn't have enough firefighters left to effectively fight the fire. Only a complete moron would have expected it to do anything other than collapse.

Investigator: Okay, that clears that up. Thank you.
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Old 18th October 2017, 09:55 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Proposal for a very inexpensive preliminary WTC reinvestigation: track down the special engineer who warned the fire chiefs that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours".
Maybe that engineer was actually (a) trained as an engineer and (b) not an idiot or a loon.

Here's some more background on that mysterious engineer and his unprecedented prediction:

Quote:
Firefighting Operations Suspended

All interior firefighting efforts were halted after almost 11 hours of uninterrupted fire in the building. Consultation with a structural engineer and structural damage observed by units operating in the building led to the belief that there was a possibility of a pancake structural collapse of the fire damaged floors. Bearing this risk in mind along with the loss of three personnel and the lack of progress against the fire despite having secured adequate water pressure and flow for interior fire streams, an order was given to evacuate the building at 0700 on February 24. At the time of the evacuation, the fire appeared to be under control on the 22nd though 24th floors. It continued to burn on floors 25 and 26 and was spreading upward. There was a heavy smoke condition throughout most of the upper floors. The evacuation was completed by 0730.

After evacuating the building, portable master streams directed at the fire building from several exposures, including the Girard Building #1 and One Centre Plaza, across the street to the west were the only firefighting efforts left in place
Oh, wait--that passage describes the conclusions of a structural engineer re a building fire that occurred in 1991. Damn! They planned this 9-11 caper pretty far in advance, doncha think?

Last edited by benthamitemetric; 18th October 2017 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 18th October 2017, 09:59 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Who should carry out this investigation, what powers they should be granted, and from what authority and under what legal framework these powers should be derived? You seem to have run away from this question last time it was asked.

Dave

ETA: BTW, this seems to be predicated on your usual MO of insisting that recollections many years after the fact are invariably 100% accurate, despite the fact that you seem to have forgotten that you were discussing this in a more appropriate thread only a month ago. Just saying.
Shortly after 9/11, the spokesman for the FDNY was quoted as saying that WTC 7 was evacuated due to fear of structural failure at 11:30 AM. Given that there are numerous corroborating statements from first responders indicating that they heard about that very shortly after the North Tower collapse. Peter Hayden, I believe, was first quoted on this in a 2002 Firehouse magazine article. I don't know when that WTC 7 court document quote from him was produced, but it may have been 2004. He gave the same story to BBC in 2008, about the special engineer. Everything makes sense with this explanation.
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Old 18th October 2017, 10:02 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
Maybe that engineer was actually (a) trained as an engineer and (b) not an idiot or a loon.

Here's some more background on that mysterious engineer and his unprecedented prediction:



Oh, wait--that passage describes the conclusions of a structural engineer re a building fire that occurred in 1991. Damn! They planned this 9-11 caper pretty far in advance, doncha think?
Okay, a case in which firefighters were warned after 11 hours of roaring uninterrupted fire, and in that case building didn't actually collapse, versus WTC 7 which had a mysterious dude show up 30 minutes to an hour after the North Tower collapse and declare that the building would completely collapse in a fashion similar to the Twin Towers "in about five or six hours". And the actual collapse of the building happened five and a half hours later.
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Old 18th October 2017, 10:06 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Okay, a case in which firefighters were warned after 11 hours of roaring uninterrupted fire, and in that case building didn't actually collapse, versus WTC 7 which had a mysterious dude show up 30 minutes to an hour after the North Tower collapse and declare that the building would completely collapse in a fashion similar to the Twin Towers "in about five or six hours". And the actual collapse of the building happened five and a half hours later.
Gosh, let's play the distinction game and see if we can't figure out a few things that the engineer in question might have been thinking of, shall we? I'll go first:

1. There was no water supply to the lower floors in WTC7 and thus they were unsprinklered.

2. There was no fire fighting in WTC7 whatsoever.

3. The fires in WTC7 started simultaneously on multiple floors, both contiguous and non-contiguous, instead of spreading from a single point of origin.

It's almost like, if you actually think about the problem, you can see why the respective timelines for failure from the two engineers would differ for principled reasons!

Last edited by benthamitemetric; 18th October 2017 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 18th October 2017, 10:14 AM   #175
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Seriously, if you guys are up to reach the magic of your glory days, you could support that simple low-cost investigative task as a preliminary examination. Tracking down the special engineer and those that knew him could turn out to be good for debunkers. Who knows. Maybe have the special engineer give an interview on camera reuniting with a few first responders he saw there to back up his story settling the whole discussion. That would be a game changer, guys!

Last edited by MicahJava; 18th October 2017 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 18th October 2017, 10:19 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Seriously, if you guys are up to reach the magic of your glory days, you could support that simple low-cost investigative task as a preliminary examination. Tracking down the special engineer and those that knew him could turn out to be good for debunkers. Who knows. Maybe have the special engineer give an interview on camera reuniting with a few first responders he saw there to back up his story settling the whole discussion . That would be a game changer, guys!
Or you could actually think about the problem, do a little actual research (i.e., read about how structural engineers actually evaluate buildings in real time to reduce risk to fire fighters), and realize there is nothing surprising at all about the determination in question and that your incredulity (which is based only on the sunk cost of having wasted years of your life believing in complete woo) is not a good or sufficient basis to investigate anyone or anything.

Last edited by benthamitemetric; 18th October 2017 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 18th October 2017, 10:23 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
Or you could actually think about the problem, do a little actual research (i.e., read about how structural engineers actually evaluate buildings in real time to reduce risk to fire fighters), and realize there is nothing surprising at all about the determination in question and that your incredulity (which is based only on the sunk cost of having wasted years of your life believing in complete woo) is not a good or sufficient basis to investigate anyone or anything.
Does that sell?
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Old 18th October 2017, 10:26 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Does that sell?
Does wasting pages and pages raising factually incorrect and/or ignorant points only to prove nothing and ultimately be unable to respond to pointed critiques of your errors "sell"?

Apparently not considering it's 16 years after the fact and only a handful of die hard believers even bothers spreading your nonsense any more.
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Old 18th October 2017, 10:54 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Proposal for a very inexpensive preliminary WTC reinvestigation: track down the special engineer who warned the fire chiefs that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours".
Possible outcomes:
  1. The engineer can't be found at all.
  2. The engineer is dead.
  3. The engineer doesn't remember what he exactly said.
  4. The engineer said a different number, but the fire commander misremembered his words.
  5. The engineer is amused at how accurate his estimation was.
  6. The engineer was told about the plans by some "friends" and he boasted about his preliminary knowledge with the fire commander, without caring about whether that would ruin their plans.
  7. The engineer was told about the plans by some "friends" and he wanted to protect the lives of the firefighters, because, you know, the NWO is just so benevolent with the lives of people, except when it isn't.
What do you think William of Ockahm and Robert Heinlein would have to say about what the most likely outcomes are? Are you really willing to dedicate resources to such a useless research?
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Old 18th October 2017, 10:59 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
..., versus WTC 7 which had a mysterious dude show up 30 minutes to an hour after the North Tower collapse and declare that the building would completely collapse in a fashion similar to the Twin Towers "in about five or six hours". And the actual collapse of the building happened five and a half hours later.
The actual decisions to pull all firefighting efforts from WTC7, and the decision to establish a collapse zone around the building, were made by acting Chief of the FDNY, Daniel A. Nigro. He is today, since 2014, the New York City Fire Commissioner. I could not find the number of his phone extension, but you can try calling the FDNY desk or their public relations office. Here is a list of FDNY phone numbers: https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Public...bers/kjmq-hfaa

For example
  • Fire Department General Number: 718-999-2000
  • Records Access Officer / FOIL requests: 718-999-0293
  • Legal Enforcement Unit - Inquiries relating to Criminal Court/ ECB: 718-999-1378
  • Court Desk and Litigation Support Unit: 718-999-2146/1684
  • Press Office/Office of Public Information: 718-999-2056

Please call! Insist you talk to Nigro! Ask him if he made those decisions based on the word of a "dude" who was a "mystery" to him! Please report back how badly a fool you made of yourself during that call!


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Seriously, if you guys are up to reach the magic of your glory days, you could support that simple low-cost investigative task as a preliminary examination...
What difference does it make if we do or do not support this? Are you saying the Truth Movement is powerless alone, but if the full weight of the ISF debunkers - esteemed authorities like "CORed", "bknight", "benthamitemetric", "Oystein", etc., were behind this, then that would impress the NWO gate keepers? Almost as if the only stumbling block that keeps the Twoof Truth from shining and winning is ... us???
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Old 18th October 2017, 11:02 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
Or you could actually think about the problem, do a little actual research (i.e., read about how structural engineers actually evaluate buildings in real time to reduce risk to fire fighters), and realize there is nothing surprising at all about the determination in question and that your incredulity (which is based only on the sunk cost of having wasted years of your life believing in complete woo) is not a good or sufficient basis to investigate anyone or anything.
Does that sell?
In the Truth Movement: No.
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Old 18th October 2017, 11:12 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The actual decisions to pull all firefighting efforts from WTC7, and the decision to establish a collapse zone around the building, were made by acting Chief of the FDNY, Daniel A. Nigro. He is today, since 2014, the New York City Fire Commissioner. I could not find the number of his phone extension, but you can try calling the FDNY desk or their public relations office. Here is a list of FDNY phone numbers: https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Public...bers/kjmq-hfaa

For example
  • Fire Department General Number: 718-999-2000
  • Records Access Officer / FOIL requests: 718-999-0293
  • Legal Enforcement Unit - Inquiries relating to Criminal Court/ ECB: 718-999-1378
  • Court Desk and Litigation Support Unit: 718-999-2146/1684
  • Press Office/Office of Public Information: 718-999-2056

Please call! Insist you talk to Nigro! Ask him if he made those decisions based on the word of a "dude" who was a "mystery" to him! Please report back how badly a fool you made of yourself during that call!



What difference does it make if we do or do not support this? Are you saying the Truth Movement is powerless alone, but if the full weight of the ISF debunkers - esteemed authorities like "CORed", "bknight", "benthamitemetric", "Oystein", etc., were behind this, then that would impress the NWO gate keepers? Almost as if the only stumbling block that keeps the Twoof Truth from shining and winning is ... us???
I found this.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/fdny/about...missioner.page

At the bottom is a link to send him a message.
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Old 18th October 2017, 11:12 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The actual decisions to pull all firefighting efforts from WTC7, and the decision to establish a collapse zone around the building, were made by acting Chief of the FDNY, Daniel A. Nigro. He is today, since 2014, the New York City Fire Commissioner. I could not find the number of his phone extension, but you can try calling the FDNY desk or their public relations office. Here is a list of FDNY phone numbers: https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Public...bers/kjmq-hfaa

For example
  • Fire Department General Number: 718-999-2000
  • Records Access Officer / FOIL requests: 718-999-0293
  • Legal Enforcement Unit - Inquiries relating to Criminal Court/ ECB: 718-999-1378
  • Court Desk and Litigation Support Unit: 718-999-2146/1684
  • Press Office/Office of Public Information: 718-999-2056

Please call! Insist you talk to Nigro! Ask him if he made those decisions based on the word of a "dude" who was a "mystery" to him! Please report back how badly a fool you made of yourself during that call!



What difference does it make if we do or do not support this? Are you saying the Truth Movement is powerless alone, but if the full weight of the ISF debunkers - esteemed authorities like "CORed", "bknight", "benthamitemetric", "Oystein", etc., were behind this, then that would impress the NWO gate keepers? Almost as if the only stumbling block that keeps the Twoof Truth from shining and winning is ... us???
Daniel Nigro is one of a few fire chiefs who have claimed to be solely responsible for evacuating the building. The truth is that all of their decisions were influenced by the special engineer.

I have recently requested the FDNY interviews with NIST from New York City, I am awaiting on that.
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Old 18th October 2017, 11:14 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
I found this.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/fdny/about...missioner.page

At the bottom is a link to send him a message.
Yes, I've already tried all of that. I never get a response.
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Old 18th October 2017, 11:26 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
I found this.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/fdny/about...missioner.page

At the bottom is a link to send him a message.
Google found this for me, too, but the page wouldn't load. Perhaps something to do with me having a non-US IP?
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Old 18th October 2017, 11:31 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Daniel Nigro is one of a few fire chiefs who have claimed to be solely responsible for evacuating the building. The truth is that all of their decisions were influenced by the special engineer.
The truth is actually that Nigro has already rejected strongly any suggestion that he would take commands from anybody at all. To think that he would let himself be influenced by someone he doesn't know is preposterous, if not libelous.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I have recently requested the FDNY interviews with NIST from New York City, I am awaiting on that.
You should request them from NIST, not the City, if indeed these were NIST interviews. This should be so glaringly obvious that I cannot believe you actually did that at all.

Have you not heard that the NYT has an archive of interviewes with most first responders, including FDNY personel?

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Yes, I've already tried all of that. I never get a response.
Frankly, I do not believe that even one second.
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Old 18th October 2017, 11:33 AM   #187
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What difference does it make if we do or do not support your investigation, MJ? Are you saying the Truth Movement is powerless alone, but if the full weight of the ISF debunkers - esteemed authorities like "CORed", "bknight", "benthamitemetric", "Oystein", etc., were behind this, then that would impress the NWO gate keepers? Almost as if the only stumbling block that keeps the Twoof Truth from shining and winning is ... us???
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Old 18th October 2017, 11:33 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Yes, I've already tried all of that. I never get a response.
Oooo, I wonder why. Not.
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Old 18th October 2017, 11:44 AM   #189
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If only there were a solid source that compiled the observations of several fire fighters on scene and also recounted who consulted with the engineer in question and why the engineer's determination was reasonable given all such observations. Where ever could one find such a record? Could it be on pgs 7-10 of a publicly available federal appeals court decision that was issued over 4 years ago? No way... that would mean the best truther "researchers" somehow failed to find reliable and easily obtainable information that contradicts what they want to believe and we all know that never happens /s.

Last edited by benthamitemetric; 18th October 2017 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 18th October 2017, 12:57 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Seriously, if you guys are up to reach the magic of your glory days, you could support that simple low-cost investigative task as a preliminary examination.

16 years and counting and still no 9/11 conspiracy or explosive evidence to be found anywhere on earth, but since the the sun will burn out in a few billion years, I am willing to give truthers that much time to come up with their so-called evidence. After that, they should throw in the towel.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 18th October 2017 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:14 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Daniel Nigro is one of a few fire chiefs who have claimed to be solely responsible for evacuating the building. The truth is that all of their decisions were influenced by the special engineer.

Let's take a look here to see if you are correct.


Quote:
Release date: September 23, 2007

Regarding WTC 7: The long-awaited US Government NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) report on the collapse of WTC 7 is due to be published at the end of this year (although it has been delayed already a few times [ adding fuel to the conspiracy theorists fires!]). That report should explain the cause and mechanics of the collapse in great detail. Early on the afternoon of September 11th 2001, following the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, I feared a collapse of WTC 7 (as did many on my staff).

The reasons are as follows:

1 - Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.

2. The collapse of WTC 1 damaged portions of the lower floors of WTC 7.

3. WTC 7, we knew, was built on a small number of large columns providing an open Atrium on the lower levels.

4. numerous fires on many floors of WTC 7 burned without sufficient water supply to attack them.

For these reasons I made the decision (without consulting the owner, the mayor or anyone else - as ranking fire officer, that decision was my responsibility) to clear a collapse zone surrounding the building and to stop all activity within that zone. Approximately three hours after that order was given, WTC 7 collapsed.

Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit.

Regards, Dan Nigro
Chief of Department FDNY (retired)

https://sites.google.com/site/911guide/danielnigro

In other words, you are wrong again!!
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:42 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Shortly after 9/11, the spokesman for the FDNY was quoted as saying that WTC 7 was evacuated due to fear of structural failure at 11:30 AM. Given that there are numerous corroborating statements from first responders indicating that they heard about that very shortly after the North Tower collapse. Peter Hayden, I believe, was first quoted on this in a 2002 Firehouse magazine article. I don't know when that WTC 7 court document quote from him was produced, but it may have been 2004. He gave the same story to BBC in 2008, about the special engineer. Everything makes sense with this explanation.
So who should carry out this investigation you're demanding, what powers they should be granted, and from what authority and under what legal framework these powers should be derived? You seem to have run away from this question again.

Dave
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:43 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Seriously, if you guys are up to reach the magic of your glory days, you could support that simple low-cost investigative task as a preliminary examination. Tracking down the special engineer and those that knew him could turn out to be good for debunkers. Who knows. Maybe have the special engineer give an interview on camera reuniting with a few first responders he saw there to back up his story settling the whole discussion. That would be a game changer, guys!
Assuming we're not interested in servicing your fantasies, and that you wouldn't accept the results of any such investigation anyway, who should carry out this investigation, what powers they should be granted, and from what authority and under what legal framework these powers should be derived?

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 18th October 2017, 02:31 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Assuming we're not interested in servicing your fantasies, and that you wouldn't accept the results of any such investigation anyway, who should carry out this investigation, what powers they should be granted, and from what authority and under what legal framework these powers should be derived?

Dave
He wont answer. He is not interested in that. The goal is simply to keep the nonsense going.
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Old 18th October 2017, 03:29 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
What difference does it make if we do or do not support your investigation, MJ? Are you saying the Truth Movement is powerless alone, but if the full weight of the ISF debunkers - esteemed authorities like "CORed", "bknight", "benthamitemetric", "Oystein", etc., were behind this, then that would impress the NWO gate keepers? Almost as if the only stumbling block that keeps the Twoof Truth from shining and winning is ... us???
Our secret is out
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Old 18th October 2017, 06:25 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
You've had your say, but what does the NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations say?
The NFPA says:

Originally Posted by NFPA, commenting on NIST's WTC7 investigation
The level of effort, study, analysis and examination of the Building 7 collapse was an apparent and obviously complex endeavor due to the myriad and complex circumstances involved. NIST is commended for also taking the time to consider, and ultimately discount alternative and unconventional scenarios such as the controlled demolition theories. The members of the National Construction Safety Team (NCST), the contributing NIST staff, as well as the private contractors and consultants are to be applauded for their commitment to this project as well as the public members of the NCST Federal Advisory Committee for their oversight of the project.
I realize conspiracy theorists read that and see "We think NIST's behavior was nothing short of criminal," but sane people understand that the NFPA endorsed NIST's approach fully.

Dave

Damn! I can't believe the NFPA doxxed me like that. Careless!

Well, now that everyone knows I was "involved" I'd better talk to my lawyer before saying anything more.
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Old 18th October 2017, 07:22 PM   #197
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahJava
The FBI didn't test for molten/evaporated steel or concrete despite having possible physical specimens for it, so I don't know what you're implying they would find. The thing about explosive devices is that they tend to explode. It sounds like you're distorting something that wasn't a proper arson investigation at all. If there was anything that could even barely qualify as a preliminary examination of the physical evidence for the use of explosives or arson with incendiaries, you would be waiving it around. But you must resort to some whisper of a time some FBI dudes walked through Fresh Kills landfill.


Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Didn't you say this about the FBI in another thread?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahJava
FBI Agents are trained to observe, remember and record what they see on a daily basis. So I think the 15-year-old testimony of O'Neil becomes significant because he was willing to communicate that the entry wound was in the lower head area.
Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
So wouldn't the same FBI be trained to observe and record anything suspicious from the Fresh Kills investigation?
Disbelief, you forget that Conspiracism usually requires the same people to be both super-competent and utterly incompetent. This would apply to both the NWO and the FBI. It's a sort of duality akin to Schrödinger's Cat. But in this case, the waveform collapses not due to some quantum event, but according to the needs of the narrative.
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Old 18th October 2017, 07:33 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Proposal for a very inexpensive preliminary WTC reinvestigation: track down the special engineer who warned the fire chiefs that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours".
Why don't you go to people with a direct interest in the case? That would be the insurers of the building, and any insurer who paid out for loss of business to any tenant of WTC 7, or the insurers of the Verizon Building or Fiterman Hall, which were both damaged by the collapse of WTC 7.

Take your case to them! All you need do is to get one single party interested, and they'll take over! The insurers of WTC 7 alone paid out $600 million, and insurers pay out handsome bounties for tips on insurance fraud. It's usually 10%. $60 million possibly awaits you!
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Old 18th October 2017, 07:40 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The truth is actually that Nigro has already rejected strongly any suggestion that he would take commands from anybody at all. To think that he would let himself be influenced by someone he doesn't know is preposterous, if not libelous.
But surely you must know the story of the "The Captain of Köpenick". Surely, some NWO agent went to Nigro acting like some guy who knew what he was talking about, and Nigro swallowed his story whole, in contravention to Nigro's own experience! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Voigt)
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Old 19th October 2017, 01:09 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
Disbelief, you forget that Conspiracism usually requires the same people to be both super-competent and utterly incompetent. This would apply to both the NWO and the FBI. It's a sort of duality akin to Schrödinger's Cat. But in this case, the waveform collapses not due to some quantum event, but according to the needs of the narrative.
There's another, rather similar, type of duality going on here that I've just noticed, with some considerable amusement. A lot of the effort of 9/11 truthers goes into analyzing the details of the collapses of the WTC towers, on all possible scales from hours to milliseconds, and all this is predicated on the assumption that, despite a complete lack of experience and expertise, it's simple common sense that a large steel-framed building must collapse in one way but not in another. From questioning the fact that WTC2 collapsed sooner than WTC1 - because both got hit by an airliner, right? - to pixel-by-pixel analysis of the acceleration of WTC7 and pointing the finger at a specific 2.25 second period of the collapse, they pronounce from their armchairs that any uninformed, or sometimes tragically ignorant, layman can see how obvious it is that the collapses should have proceeded subtly differently from the way that they actually did. Yet when they hear an unverified anecdote that an experienced engineer, on the site, was able to make a prediction that was within about an hour of being correct, suddenly the idea that someone can predict the behavior of a collapsing building is so outlandish that it can only be explained by them having been involved in making the building collapse. Only the ignorant, it seems, are credible to the truth movement.

Dave
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