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Old 19th October 2017, 01:50 AM   #201
Oystein
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Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
But surely you must know the story of the "The Captain of Köpenick". Surely, some NWO agent went to Nigro acting like some guy who knew what he was talking about, and Nigro swallowed his story whole, in contravention to Nigro's own experience! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Voigt)
Voigt pretended to be a superior, and indeed Prussian grenadiers were trained to obey any officer.

Nigro wasn't a grenadier, he was the commanding general. No Captain of Köpenick could have single-handedly led his hans. Nigro, according to his own statement, decided due to a confluence of facts coming from his actual officers, not a single, anonymous outlier.
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Old 19th October 2017, 05:52 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Let's take a look here to see if you are correct.

Quote:
Release date: September 23, 2007

Regarding WTC 7: The long-awaited US Government NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) report on the collapse of WTC 7 is due to be published at the end of this year (although it has been delayed already a few times [ adding fuel to the conspiracy theorists fires!]). That report should explain the cause and mechanics of the collapse in great detail. Early on the afternoon of September 11th 2001, following the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, I feared a collapse of WTC 7 (as did many on my staff).

The reasons are as follows:

1 - Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.

2. The collapse of WTC 1 damaged portions of the lower floors of WTC 7.

3. WTC 7, we knew, was built on a small number of large columns providing an open Atrium on the lower levels.

4. numerous fires on many floors of WTC 7 burned without sufficient water supply to attack them.

For these reasons I made the decision (without consulting the owner, the mayor or anyone else - as ranking fire officer, that decision was my responsibility) to clear a collapse zone surrounding the building and to stop all activity within that zone. Approximately three hours after that order was given, WTC 7 collapsed.

Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit.

Regards, Dan Nigro
Chief of Department FDNY (retired)

https://sites.google.com/site/911guide/danielnigro



In other words, you are wrong again!!
It seems that Nigro lives in reality, not the fringe CT world.
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Old 19th October 2017, 07:22 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
When a piece of disinfo emerges among the more reasonable citizens who ask questions, it gets attacked like a parasite.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove incivility
Why shouldn't a piece of disinfo get attacked like a parasite?

Do you expect it should stand and get bumped up on Youtube?

Or is this just a Freudian slip about your methodology?

And what's with calling yourself one of the 'more reasonable citizens who ask questions'? That's just assuming what you have to prove.

And you don't establish it down the path you're treading.

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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Last edited by HSienzant; 19th October 2017 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 19th October 2017, 07:28 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
There's another, rather similar, type of duality going on here that I've just noticed, with some considerable amusement. A lot of the effort of 9/11 truthers goes into analyzing the details of the collapses of the WTC towers, on all possible scales from hours to milliseconds, and all this is predicated on the assumption that, despite a complete lack of experience and expertise, it's simple common sense that a large steel-framed building must collapse in one way but not in another. From questioning the fact that WTC2 collapsed sooner than WTC1 - because both got hit by an airliner, right? - to pixel-by-pixel analysis of the acceleration of WTC7 and pointing the finger at a specific 2.25 second period of the collapse, they pronounce from their armchairs that any uninformed, or sometimes tragically ignorant, layman can see how obvious it is that the collapses should have proceeded subtly differently from the way that they actually did. Yet when they hear an unverified anecdote that an experienced engineer, on the site, was able to make a prediction that was within about an hour of being correct, suddenly the idea that someone can predict the behavior of a collapsing building is so outlandish that it can only be explained by them having been involved in making the building collapse. Only the ignorant, it seems, are credible to the truth movement.

Dave
Great observation. The cognitive dissonance manifests itself in so many ways, but I don't think I've seen anyone point this one out before.
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Old 19th October 2017, 08:17 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
Great observation. The cognitive dissonance manifests itself in so many ways, but I don't think I've seen anyone point this one out before.
The problem is - from what I've seen - they typically don't think much about these issues in the same way that you or I do.

They've got anomaly A and anomaly B.

The fact that A contradicts B doesn't matter to them. It never even enters their consciousness. Pointing out the conflict doesn't do much good. Even if they understand the problem, by the next day they've forgotten all about it and are back to talking about A and B as if both can be true.

I've seen it in CTs in the JFK assassination as well (of course, with MicahJava, there's an overlap).

Here's an example from the JFK boards of the same poster committing the same type of error, arguing for two mutually exclusive options at the same time:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1962

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Last edited by HSienzant; 19th October 2017 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 19th October 2017, 09:13 AM   #206
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MJ's beliefs are based on logical fallacies, and he can't/won't recognize that fact.
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Old 19th October 2017, 10:10 AM   #207
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https://www.reddit.com/r/911truth/co..._firefighters/

This is a concise summary of the foreknowledge of WTC 7 If Daniel Nigro made the first major evacuation order, his decision was influenced by the special engineer.
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Old 19th October 2017, 10:12 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
It seems that Nigro lives in reality, not the fringe CT world.
If only #3 wasn't literally a lie. WTC 7's columns ran through the con-ed substation. If Nigro is repeating something he heard, that information is untrue.
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Old 19th October 2017, 10:19 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The truth is actually that Nigro has already rejected strongly any suggestion that he would take commands from anybody at all. To think that he would let himself be influenced by someone he doesn't know is preposterous, if not libelous.
https://www.reddit.com/r/911truth/co..._firefighters/

How much evidence do you need?


Quote:
You should request them from NIST, not the City, if indeed these were NIST interviews. This should be so glaringly obvious that I cannot believe you actually did that at all.
I already send a FOIA to NIST almost a year ago. I requested their 2004 interview transcripts of Frank Fellini, Peter Hayden, Daniel Nigro, etc. and they were denied on some kind of "privacy concerns". I then tried requesting a simple list of what witnesses were interviewed by NIST. You know what I got? A burned disc with a spreadsheet containing all redacted names. Compare that to the 12 volumes of the Warren Commission which had a generous sampling of witnesses' early statements and full testimony. Requesting the interview transcripts from New York City would be a last-ditch effort.

Quote:
Frankly, I do not believe that even one second.
I am a truth seeker. I occasionally request information through official forums because I can't get everything I need through Google or newspapers.
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Old 19th October 2017, 10:22 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Voigt pretended to be a superior, and indeed Prussian grenadiers were trained to obey any officer.

Nigro wasn't a grenadier, he was the commanding general. No Captain of Köpenick could have single-handedly led his hans. Nigro, according to his own statement, decided due to a confluence of facts coming from his actual officers, not a single, anonymous outlier.
I don't know why you think I'm being disrespectful to FDNY Nigro or something. It would make sense to go along with the advice of a technical advisor brought in by the city.
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Old 19th October 2017, 10:36 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
https://www.reddit.com/r/911truth/co..._firefighters/

This is a concise summary of the foreknowledge of WTC 7 If Daniel Nigro made the first major evacuation order, his decision was influenced by the special engineer.
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
https://www.reddit.com/r/911truth/co..._firefighters/

This is a concise summary of the foreknowledge of WTC 7 If Daniel Nigro made the first major evacuation order, his decision was influenced by the special engineer.
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If only #3 wasn't literally a lie. WTC 7's columns ran through the con-ed substation. If Nigro is repeating something he heard, that information is untrue.

Did you read Nigro's statement? All you have presented is hearsay.
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Old 19th October 2017, 10:38 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
https://www.reddit.com/r/911truth/co..._firefighters/

This is a concise summary of the foreknowledge of WTC 7 If Daniel Nigro made the first major evacuation order, his decision was influenced by the special engineer.
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I don't know why you think I'm being disrespectful to FDNY Nigro or something. It would make sense to go along with the advice of a technical advisor brought in by the city.
Perhaps calling him a liar is considered disrespectful.
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Old 19th October 2017, 10:43 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Did you read Nigro's statement? All you have presented is hearsay.
Yes I did. Although they don't show up in the text of the reddit post I linked, that post links to other compilations of testimonies. Factoring all of that in, that reddit post samples up to around 99% of relevant witnesses.
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Old 19th October 2017, 10:44 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Perhaps calling him a liar is considered disrespectful.
I did not. Perhaps Nigro should be asked about the special engineer so maybe if he met him he could clear things up as far as his 15-year-old memory will do.
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Old 19th October 2017, 10:54 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If only #3 wasn't literally a lie. WTC 7's columns ran through the con-ed substation. If Nigro is repeating something he heard, that information is untrue.
Here are your words not mine you are calling him a liar. Plain and simple whether you think you did or not.
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Old 19th October 2017, 10:59 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If only #3 wasn't literally a lie. WTC 7's columns ran through the con-ed substation. If Nigro is repeating something he heard, that information is untrue.
Are you saying that all 81 columns of WTC7 went from roof to ground foundations?

And all of them went through the Con Ed substation?

Last edited by Gamolon; 19th October 2017 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 19th October 2017, 11:11 AM   #217
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[quote=MicahJava;12040608...


I am a truth seeker.
....[/QUOTE]

Nothing could be further from the truth, you select information that may bolster your belief and ignore facts which contradict your beliefs. Again the "engineer" is hearsay.
Nigro and his top echelon heard the building making noises (not explosions) and since the firefighters could not attempt to fight the fire, decided that those firefighters would be in harms way and redirected their efforts to lifesaving.
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Old 19th October 2017, 11:22 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I am a truth seeker.
Then you need to stay off Reditt.
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Old 19th October 2017, 11:35 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If only #3 wasn't literally a lie. WTC 7's columns ran through the con-ed substation. If Nigro is repeating something he heard, that information is untrue.
First of all, some of WTC7's core columns ended at transfer trusses several floor above ground. Second of all, even if all 81 DID go straight to ground, some of them wouldn't have passed through the Con Ed substation per the drawing below.


So who is repeating untrue information?
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Old 19th October 2017, 11:54 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
https://www.reddit.com/r/911truth/co..._firefighters/

This is a concise summary of the foreknowledge of WTC 7 If Daniel Nigro made the first major evacuation order, his decision was influenced by the special engineer.
You're playing your usual "I know better than the people who were there" game again. Nigro's testimony is what it is; if your theory is based on denying the evidence, it's worthless.

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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 19th October 2017, 11:57 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If only #3 wasn't literally a lie.
Wrong. Did you not know about WTC7's transfer trusses?

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
WTC 7's columns ran through the con-ed substation. If Nigro is repeating something he heard, that information is untrue.
Can you please highlight the bit of Nigro's statement that mentions the Con-Ed substation?

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 19th October 2017, 12:01 PM   #222
benthamitemetric
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
https://www.reddit.com/r/911truth/co..._firefighters/

This is a concise summary of the foreknowledge of WTC 7 If Daniel Nigro made the first major evacuation order, his decision was influenced by the special engineer.
Or Nigro, who is neither an idiot nor a loon and who had just witnessed the two largest buildings in the city collapse in catastrophic failures due to fire and other damage, looked at the heavily damaged and heavily involved WTC7 and immediately concluded that it wasn't safe for fire fighters to stand near it. Nigro then directed Crunthers and Fellini, who both observed the perilous state of the building as well and were concerned about it collapsing, to clear people away from it. Hayden separately and prudently consulted with a structural engineer who confirmed the joint assessment of Nigro and Crunthers and Fellini re the likelihood the building would fail and even went so far as to set an estimated time for such failure, given that no one was even attempting to fight the fires. According to the additional quotes you provide, Hayden was also worried about the remaining portion of the Marriott collapsing, which didn't happen (though fires did cause parts of it to collapse internally, something which truthers typically ignore). In any case, all of these principals ultimately communicated with each other and with the fire fighters around them to create a cordon around the imperiled buliding. What a crazy conspiracy these guys were all in on--a conspiracy of fire fighters to save lives! Such dastardly villains!

It takes an incredible ability to miss the forest for the trees to wonder why four fighters standing at ground zero an hour after the towers collapsed were looking at a heavily damaged and involved building and expecting it too might fail.

Also, do you think Hayden got the wrong controlled demolition planning memo re the Marriott? Who do you think screwed that demolition up?

Last edited by benthamitemetric; 19th October 2017 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 19th October 2017, 12:23 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
snipped

I am a truth seeker. I occasionally request information through official forums because I can't get everything I need through Google or newspapers.
Talk about a fact not in evidence. You'd cite a barking dog if you thought it was barking something you want to believe in.
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Old 19th October 2017, 01:20 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
This page doesn't even contain the word "Nigro". It must be incomplete.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I already send a FOIA to NIST almost a year ago. I requested their 2004 interview transcripts of Frank Fellini, Peter Hayden, Daniel Nigro, etc. and they were denied on some kind of "privacy concerns".
Please produce a full copy of the the communication that contained this denial!
I do not believe for even one second that you ever made such a request.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I then tried requesting a simple list of what witnesses were interviewed by NIST. You know what I got? A burned disc with a spreadsheet containing all redacted names.
Please provide ASAP a full copy of the content of that CD. I do not believe one minute that any of what you claim there is true.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I am a truth seeker.
No, you are not.
The truth is rather obvious and easy to find. Anyone who had not found by now, 16 years later, cannot be seeking honestly.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I occasionally request information through official forums because I can't get everything I need through Google or newspapers.
Official forums??
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Old 19th October 2017, 01:25 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I don't know why you think I'm being disrespectful to FDNY Nigro or something. It would make sense to go along with the advice of a technical advisor brought in by the city.
Nigro, according to his own statement, decided due to a confluence of facts coming from his actual officers, not a single, anonymous outlier.
You are disrespectful because you allege that his decision rested NOT on a comprehensive evaluation of al incoming reports but the single assessment of a person you earlier described as "mysterious", as if the identity of that person would have been mysterious to Nigro, too.

But of course I, being a sane person, trust the professional judgement of the FDNY Chief a billion times more than yours, a know-nothing armchair-anonymous with a wide and long track record of intellectual fails.
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:05 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I don't know why you think I'm being disrespectful to FDNY Nigro or something. It would make sense to go along with the advice of a technical advisor brought in by the city.

It didn't take a structural engineer or a rocket scientist for that matter to figure out that the building was going to collapse. After all, there was a huge hole gouged out on the south wall that spanned several stories and let's not forget that the sound of structural weakening and buckling were clear indications that the building was going to collapse. It's that simple.
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:10 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I am a truth seeker.

False statement!

The truth has been firmly presented to you in the form of undeniable facts and evidence and yet, you continue to push fabrications, disinformation and misinformation as if they were true and doing so in trying to prove that explosives were used despite the fact that well-known experts have already dismissed explosives and have presented undeniable evidence that proved that fact.
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:15 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
This is a concise summary of the foreknowledge of WTC 7 If Daniel Nigro made the first major evacuation order, his decision was influenced by the special engineer.

Daniel Nigro wrote a letter, that has been presented, and said that he made the decision that was his, and his only, and look what you've posted.
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Old 19th October 2017, 08:42 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
It didn't take a structural engineer or a rocket scientist for that matter to figure out that the building was going to collapse. After all, there was a huge hole gouged out on the south wall that spanned several stories and let's not forget that the sound of structural weakening and buckling were clear indications that the building was going to collapse. It's that simple.
Yep, and here's how an actual controlled demolition expert looked at the building in real time:

Quote:
Among the dozens of people I have spoken to recently who are experts in the construction of tall buildings (and many of whom witnessed the events of September 11th as they unfolded), only one said that he knew immediately, upon learning, from TV, of the planes' hitting the buildings, that the towers were going to fall. This was Mark Loizeaux, the president of Controlled Demolition Incorporated, a Maryland-based family business that specializes in reducing tall buildings to manageable pieces of rubble. "Within a nanosecond," he told me. "I said, 'It's coming down. And the second tower will fall first, because it was hit lower down.' "

Before September 11th, the largest building ever to be imploded by accident or design was the J. L. Hudson department store, in Detroit, with 2.2 million square feet of floor space, which C.D.I. "dropped" on October 24, 1998. To do their work, Mark Loizeaux and his brother Doug need to understand the same forces and formulas that structural engineers study, but instead of using that knowledge to erect buildings they use it to take them down. They are structural undertakers, which may explain why Mark, when confronted with the spectacle of the crippled buildings, lacked the sentiment that builders feel for their creations—that innate sympathy which helped blind the engineers of the World Trade towers to the reality of what was about to occur. "I thought, Somebody's got to tell the Fire Department to get out of there," Loizeaux told me. "I picked up the phone, dialled 411, got the number, and tried it—busy. So I called the Mayor's Office of Emergency Management"—which was in 7 World Trade. "All circuits were busy. I couldn't get through."

Loizeaux said he had an enhanced video of the collapses, and he talked about them in a way that indicated he had watched the video more than once. "First of all, you've got the obvious damage to the exterior frame from the airplane—if you count the number of external columns missing from the sides the planes hit, there are about two-thirds of the total. And the buildings are still standing, which is amazing—even with all those columns missing, the gravity loads have found alternate pathways. O.K., but you've got fires—jet-fuel fires, which the building is not designed for, and you've also got lots of paper in there. Now, paper cooks. A paper fire is like a coal-mine fire: it keeps burning as long as oxygen gets to it. And you're high in the building, up in the wind, plenty of oxygen. So you've got a hot fire. And you've got these floor trusses, made of fairly thin metal, and fire protection has been knocked off most of them by the impact. And you have all this open space—clear span from perimeter to core—with no columns or partition walls, so the airplane is going to skid right through that space to the core, which doesn't have any reinforced concrete in it, just sheetrock covering steel, and the fire is going to spread everywhere immediately, and no fire-protection systems are working—the sprinkler heads shorn off by the airplanes, the water pipes in the core are likely cut. So what's going to happen? Floor A is going to fall onto floor B, which falls onto floor C; the unsupported columns will buckle; and the weight of everything above the crash site falls onto what remains below—bringing loads of two thousand pounds per square foot, plus the force of the impact, onto floors designed to bear one hundred pounds per square foot. It has to fall."

Loizeaux said that when he demolishes buildings he sometimes tries to make the top twist and fall sideways, which can generate enough "reverse thrust" to push the rest of the building the other way. "The top part of the south tower almost did fall off, which is what would happen in most buildings. Did you see how, when that top part started to fall, it began to rotate? If that piece had kept going out, it probably would have pushed the rest of the building the other way as it fell. But those long trusses saved the day—they gave way, guided that top downward just like a bullet through the barrel of a gun, and mitigated the damage." He added, "Let me tell you something. Far more people would have died if those buildings had been built differently. A conventional frame building would have fallen immediately—no question. Only a tube structure could have taken that hit and survived."
(The source is a really great article in general, by the way.)

Of course, truthers pretend people like Mr. Loizeaux are either shills or they don't exist. If you never bother asking, or manufacture a reason to dismiss, the actual experts on the relevant subjects, the truth can be oh-so-hard to find. Better to just stick with blatantly misstating what a hero fire fighter said and then calling him a liar--that's surely the best way to "investigate" things.

Last edited by benthamitemetric; 19th October 2017 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 20th October 2017, 01:17 AM   #230
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
There's plenty of evidence here that (a) all the firefighters on the scene, having seen two high-rise buildings collapse after major fires and knowing that there were major fires in a third, thought it was too dangerous to go into the third because that too might collapse (it's hard to imagine how anyone but a drooling moron could have thought otherwise), that (b) an engineer from the OEM advised firefighters that the building was unsafe (presumably he wasn't a drooling moron either), and that (c) many years after the fact, some people recalled that an engineer gave them an accurate prediction of the collapse time. The fact that nobody mentioned (c) in the interviews given directly after 9/11 suggests that this wasn't an accurate recollection, but rather a conflation of different memories; however, even if true it points to no more than an educated guess being fairly close to what actually happened. The whole "right on the money" aspect seems like a classic example of a tale that grew in the telling; anecdotes behave like that, and the people who tell them years after the event can nevertheless honestly believe that the exaggerated version is the literal truth. Memory is imperfect, something MicahJava steadfastly refuses to learn.




Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I already send a FOIA to NIST almost a year ago. I requested their 2004 interview transcripts of Frank Fellini, Peter Hayden, Daniel Nigro, etc. and they were denied on some kind of "privacy concerns". I then tried requesting a simple list of what witnesses were interviewed by NIST. You know what I got? A burned disc with a spreadsheet containing all redacted names. Compare that to the 12 volumes of the Warren Commission which had a generous sampling of witnesses' early statements and full testimony.
I see that the page you linked to contains exactly the same statement as you've just made above. Are you pretending that somebody else's work is your own, in which case you're lying, or did you create that page yourself, in which case you're citing your own opinions as proof of your own opinions?

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 20th October 2017, 03:47 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I see that the page you linked to contains exactly the same statement as you've just made above. Are you pretending that somebody else's work is your own, in which case you're lying, or did you create that page yourself, in which case you're citing your own opinions as proof of your own opinions?

Dave


This language on that page is classic:

Submissions or comments supporting the official version, including links to sites purporting to "debunk" the 9/11 Truth Movement (depending on context), are considered off-topic here.

Rules
1. Stay on topic. Off topic comments are subject to removal...


That is, this is a closed mind, and the owner doesn't want to hear opposing viewpoints.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

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Old 20th October 2017, 05:43 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post


This language on that page is classic:

Submissions or comments supporting the official version, including links to sites purporting to "debunk" the 9/11 Truth Movement (depending on context), are considered off-topic here.

Rules
1. Stay on topic. Off topic comments are subject to removal...


That is, this is a closed mind, and the owner doesn't want to hear opposing viewpoints.

Hank
They actually made that rule about 3 years ago in order to have a reason to ban me from posting. They apparently didn't realize they couldn't have conceded the argument in more conspicuous and laughable way. Happy it's still there to warn random visitors about what the cult crippled epistemology that is "9-11 Truth" is really all about.
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Old 20th October 2017, 06:13 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Daniel Nigro wrote a letter, that has been presented, and said that he made the decision that was his, and his only, and look what you've posted.
If you bothered to read the post I linked, you would know that Peter Hayden and Frank Fellini have similarly claimed to be responsible for the WTC 7 evacuation. I think there was more than one evacuation over the course of six hours.
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Old 20th October 2017, 06:13 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
They actually made that rule about 3 years ago in order to have a reason to ban me from posting. They apparently didn't realize they couldn't have conceded the argument in more conspicuous and laughable way. Happy it's still there to warn random visitors about what the cult crippled epistemology that is "9-11 Truth" is really all about.
I doubt the rule was specifically instituted to ban you, but rather anyone like you who post views not conducive to CT beliefs.
Its like a badge of honor I suspect.
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Old 20th October 2017, 06:14 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post


This language on that page is classic:

Submissions or comments supporting the official version, including links to sites purporting to "debunk" the 9/11 Truth Movement (depending on context), are considered off-topic here.

Rules
1. Stay on topic. Off topic comments are subject to removal...


That is, this is a closed mind, and the owner doesn't want to hear opposing viewpoints.

Hank
If you or somebody else here wanted to have a moderately respectful argument on reddit.com/r/911truth, you could totally post there.
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Old 20th October 2017, 06:15 AM   #236
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If you bothered to read the post I linked, you would know that Peter Hayden and Frank Fellini have similarly claimed to be responsible for the WTC 7 evacuation.
Assuming you bothered to read it yourself, that's a lie.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 20th October 2017, 06:18 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If you or somebody else here wanted to have a moderately respectful argument on reddit.com/r/911truth, you could totally post there.
Really? When "comments supporting the official version [...] are considered off-topic here"? The site explicitly forbids anyone from, for example, suggesting that fires caused the collapse of WTC7. Your definition of "moderately respectful discussion" appears to be more along the lines of "saying what I want you to and nothing else."

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 20th October 2017, 06:37 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Really? When "comments supporting the official version [...] are considered off-topic here"? The site explicitly forbids anyone from, for example, suggesting that fires caused the collapse of WTC7. Your definition of "moderately respectful discussion" appears to be more along the lines of "saying what I want you to and nothing else."

Dave
I know the climate of the subreddit, I go there a lot.
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Old 20th October 2017, 06:39 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I know the climate of the subreddit, I go there a lot.
I'm sure you do. Yours are the opinions required of those who go there.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:13 AM   #240
Dave Rogers
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I should probably expand on this one a bit.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If you bothered to read the post I linked, you would know that Peter Hayden and Frank Fellini have similarly claimed to be responsible for the WTC 7 evacuation.
No, they claimed no such thing. Let's take the quotes directly from the post you linked

Fellini:

Quote:
The major concern at that time at that particular location was number Seven, building number seven, which had taken a big hit from the north tower. When it fell, it ripped steel out from between the third and sixth floors across the facade on Vesey Street. We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing.

So for the next five or six hours we kept firefighters from working anywhere near that building, which included the whole north side of the World Trade Center complex. Eventually around 5:00 or a little after, building number seven came down.
No claim that he was responsible for the evacuation; no claim, in fact, that he personally was responsible for any decision; he speaks only of joint concerns and actions.

Hayden:

Quote:
We were concerned about additional collapses, stability of the hotel and the rest of the facade there; plus, we still had 7 World Trade Center, which was burning also. We were worried about that collapsing, and it did collapse, about six hours later. There was a conscious decision to let that building burn and just keep everybody clear.

We posed to him the question that considering the structural damage that was obvious to the – to the building on the southwest corner, and the amount of fire damage that was occurring within the building, could we anticipate a collapse and if so, when. He said yes and he gave an approximate time of five to six hours, which was pretty much right on the money because the building collapsed about 5 o’clock that afternoon

We were concerned of the possibility of collapse of the building. And we had a discussion with one particular engineer there, and we asked him, 'if we allowed it to burn could we anticipate a collapse, and if so, how soon?' And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money, that he said, ‘In its current state, you have about five hours.’
Likewise, no claim that he was responsible for the evacuation, or indeed any mention of the evacuation, and no claim that he personally was responsible for any decision; again, he speaks only of joint concerns and actions.

MicahJava, since I assume you yourself sourced these quotes and posted them, I can only suppose that you're familiar with their content, and are able to understand that they contain no claim by either Fellini or Hayden that they were responsible for the WTC7 evacuation. Why, then, are you asserting that they made that claim, when you know it to be a lie?

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right

Last edited by Dave Rogers; 20th October 2017 at 07:15 AM.
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