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Old 20th October 2017, 07:15 AM   #241
Gamolon
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If you bothered to read the post I linked, you would know that Peter Hayden and Frank Fellini have similarly claimed to be responsible for the WTC 7 evacuation. I think there was more than one evacuation over the course of six hours.
Are you going to address the incorrect information you posted regarding all the WTC7 columns going through the Con Ed substation?
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:19 AM   #242
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What's your point? The special engineer was the person who influenced the early WTC 7 foreknowledge. Shyam Sunder knew this, as he had access to interviews that none of us have read before. They were probably asked about the special engineer, but Shyam apparently doesn't know his name. Shyam only said in his 2008 discussion with McQueen that the engineer was a male. We don't know know who this guy was.

Some of you guys have dedicated years to going here and arguing against 9/11 Truth. I would expect that you would think it was a good idea to investigate how they knew so early on that WTC 7 would collapse. According to you, it could lead to more evidence that it was a structural failure. That would be a very inexpensive preliminary reinvestigation, and it's good for the history books.

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Old 20th October 2017, 07:21 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Are you going to address the incorrect information you posted regarding all the WTC7 columns going through the Con Ed substation?
NIST said that the Con Ed substation could not have any negative effect on the building's performance.
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:22 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
What's your point? The special engineer was the person who influenced the early WTC 7 foreknowledge. Shyam Sunder knew this, as he had access to interviews that none of us have read before. They were probably asked about the special engineer, but Shyam apparently doesn't know his name. Shyam only said in his 2008 discussion with McQueen that the engineer was a male. We don't know know who this guy was.

Some of you guys have dedicated years to going here and arguing against 9/11 Truth. I would expect that you would think it was a good idea to investigate how they knew so early on that WTC 7 would collapse. In your mind, it could lead to more evidence that it was a structural failure.
Just how early on is "so early on" exactly?

Right there, in the "helpful suggestion" you propose, is a prejudgement that intends to create suspicion of motives.
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:24 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Just how early on is "so early on" exactly?

Right there, in the question you're asking, is a prejudgement that intends to create suspicion of motives.
11:30 AM, but if we go by the CNN anchor's comment at 11:07 AM that "there was another collapse or explosion, and a firefighter told me that fifty stories went down" could be a reference to WTC 7, then the foreknowledge of WTC 7's collapse could trace back to just half an hour after the North Tower collapsed.
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:26 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If you bothered to read the post I linked, you would know that Peter Hayden and Frank Fellini have similarly claimed to be responsible for the WTC 7 evacuation. I think there was more than one evacuation over the course of six hours.
I see that Dave Rogers already ripped this FALSE claim to pieces. But even if it were true, how on earth would that help your cause? Wouldn't it mean that ALL the ranking officers came to the same conclusions about the likely fate of the building, given the confluence of all the information available to them? Almost as if responsible, experienced and qualified experts on the scene having all of the available information would come to the rational conclusion that OF COURSE WTC7 was in danger of collapse because of the FIRES and the structural damage?
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:33 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I see that Dave Rogers already ripped this FALSE claim to pieces. But even if it were true, how on earth would that help your cause? Wouldn't it mean that ALL the ranking officers came to the same conclusions about the likely fate of the building, given the confluence of all the information available to them? Almost as if responsible, experienced and qualified experts on the scene having all of the available information would come to the rational conclusion that OF COURSE WTC7 was in danger of collapse because of the FIRES and the structural damage?
Oystein, nobody has to be lying for the foreknowledge to originate with the special engineer.

There is also no evidence of fire in the building at that time. There was that one guy who said he extinguished a fire coming out of a diesel tank, but that was on one floor and nobody noticed it after him.

Other investigations have found that in hindsight the structural damage could have have had any contribution to a structural failure besides starting and fanning the fires.
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:33 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
What's your point? The special engineer was the person who influenced the early WTC 7 foreknowledge.
Cut out the goddam lies already! The FDNY leadership had a great wealth of information available to them, and their decisions were based on a confluence of many pieces of data.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Shyam Sunder knew this, as he had access to interviews that none of us have read before.
You are arguing with what you speculate the evidence would be if you have it, but you don't have it?? Seriously?
Well that explains why you are a Truther: Always picking the stupidest idea when several are available.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
They were probably asked about the special engineer, but Shyam apparently doesn't know his name.
Bla bla bla MicahJava making up stuff on the go bla bla bla. What an awful performance you are serving here

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I would expect that you would think it was a good idea to investigate how they knew so early on that WTC 7 would collapse.
It was obvious and has remained obvious ever since. Steel-frame structures are known to be prone to collapse from fires very rapidly if taken outside of their envelop, as WTC7 was (sprinklers out, breaches in fire stops, fires starting simultaneously on several floors; no firefighting)

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
According to you, it could lead to more evidence that it was a structural failure. That would be a very inexpensive preliminary reinvestigation, and it's good for the history books.
We know the history books. We accept them. You make up stuff from wishful thinking.
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:35 AM   #249
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Do you even think the special engineer existed? Crazy Chainsaw has even made dubious claims of personally speaking to him under the condition that he does not reveal his identity.
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:36 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
11:30 AM, but if we go by the CNN anchor's comment at 11:07 AM that "there was another collapse or explosion, and a firefighter told me that fifty stories went down" could be a reference to WTC 7, then the foreknowledge of WTC 7's collapse could trace back to just half an hour after the North Tower collapsed.
Should we also consider the reports of explosions on capitol hill and car bombs at the State Dept to be part of the conspiracy or would that be collectively seen as evidence of a really confusing day with lots of misinformation floating around (as happens with nearly every national emergency)?

But besides that, you've got the numerous first responder and videographer accounts of #7 being "fully involved" (much to the chagrin of those who like to post the same 2 or 3 pictures from the least damaged facing of the building) and a growing chorus of people (qualified to judge such things) that the building would come down.

Here's where people go wrong: yes, the building theoretically could have been saved with firefighting efforts. No efforts were made: ergo they intended to collapse it the entire time?

No.

They didn't fight the fire because they'd just lost whole battalions and weren't about to risk any more people. They did very much intentionally decide to let the building burn and structurally fail. This was not because they "wanted" the building to fail, but that with the resources they had (including company psychological morale, now a huge factor) they should focus on life-saving and public safety, creating a perimeter, planning for search and rescue ops, etc.
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:36 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
11:30 AM, but if we go by the CNN anchor's comment at 11:07 AM that "there was another collapse or explosion, and a firefighter told me that fifty stories went down" could be a reference to WTC 7, then the foreknowledge of WTC 7's collapse could trace back to just half an hour after the North Tower collapsed.
If.
Could.
Truther making up stuff.

The whole foreknowledge story is idiocy from beginning to end.
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:37 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Some of you guys have dedicated years to going here and arguing against 9/11 Truth. I would expect that you would think it was a good idea to investigate how they knew so early on that WTC 7 would collapse.
I think my "The people on site weren't drooling morons" theory covers that one. It's certainly consistent with Daniel Nigro's explanation of the exact thought processes that led him to that conclusion, as well as those of every other senior firefighter you could find quotes from. It's also consistent with the fact that actual firefighters, as opposed to armchair investigators, know that steel structures are vulnerable to sudden collapses due to fire, and prefer not to risk their lives and their subordinates' lives by pretending that steel has magical fireproof powers.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
According to you, it could lead to more evidence that it was a structural failure.
You just can't resist building strawman arguments, can you?

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
That would be a very inexpensive preliminary reinvestigation, and it's good for the history books.
If delusional idiots won't accept the results of at least four detailed investigations and the unanimous conclusion of all the experienced people on site that have come to the same conclusion, repeating the expert testimony isn't likely to make any difference. I mean, for Christ's sake, you've put together a series of quotes by firefighters explaining exactly why they were concerned that WTC7 would collapse, and all you can do is lie about its contents. Why would you be swayed by repeating the obvious?

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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:37 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Oystein, nobody has to be lying for the foreknowledge to originate with the special engineer.
...
It didn't. You keep saying this despite it being untrue.
You lie.
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:44 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
NIST said that the Con Ed substation could not have any negative effect on the building's performance.
What does NIST saying that the Con Ed substation could not have any negative effect on the buildings performance have to do with the fact that you called Nigro's #3 statment a lie based on the fact that WTC7's columns ran through the Con Ed substation. See your quote below.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If only #3 wasn't literally a lie. WTC 7's columns ran through the con-ed substation. If Nigro is repeating something he heard, that information is untrue.
You called what Nigro said a lie and cited incorrect information as to why you thought it was a lie.

I (and others) posted information that your statement was wrong.

Are you going to address this or not?
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:48 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Are you going to address this or not?
I'm going with not. We've seen how MicahJava goes off on one and throws around accusations of lying when he doesn't like hearing the truth, but apparently lying's OK for him.

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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 20th October 2017, 08:02 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'm going with not. We've seen how MicahJava goes off on one and throws around accusations of lying when he doesn't like hearing the truth, but apparently lying's OK for him.

Dave
Yeah, it's unbelievable.

Call what Nigro said a lie and cite information. Get called out on that information and get shown it's incorrect. Come back and say that it doesn't matter anyways because it's irrelevant. Run away because you don't have the grapes to admit you were wrong.

Oh well.
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Old 20th October 2017, 08:24 AM   #257
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Here's the kill shot to Micah's ridiculous lies and theories. I'm on a plane, so I'll leave it to others to pull the relevant quotes. Enjoy.

http://www.fireengineering.com/artic...e-command.html

And a little more background from Fellini's perspective: http://www.fireengineering.com/artic...s-command.html

Last edited by benthamitemetric; 20th October 2017 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 20th October 2017, 08:28 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
Here's the kill shot to Micah's ridiculous lies and theories. I'm on a plane, so I'll leave it to others to pull the relevant quotes. Enjoy.

http://www.fireengineering.com/artic...e-command.html
Requires a subscription, unfortunately. But even if it didn't, it wouldn't serve to extract MicahJava's fingers from his ears, stop him singing "La la la la la, I can't hear you," or, in extreme cases, reading the quotes, making up something completely different and pretending that's what the quotes say.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 20th October 2017, 08:49 AM   #259
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From the first link I provided above, which is an article written by Frank Cruthers:

Quote:
...I think, when looking at the early stages of postcollapse command, we have to realize that any of us who were there at the time of the collapses were most likely operating at some level of shock. Basically, the staff chiefs that we had were either dead or in shock, other than the few who arrived after the collapse. A couple of years ago, there were more staff chiefs. In this instance, ideally, a new platoon of staff chiefs would have been available to come up to us on the scene and say, "Brief us and we're taking over." So the demands on us were extraordinary. Our whole program escalation of command is based on the chief at the next level coming to an incident and looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes, not having been involved in the current strategy and not having been directly affected by conditions—in a case like this, hopefully, this chief would be more ready to take an objective look, to reassess, to redeploy, and to reinforce.

But we didn't have the number of people we needed at that level in the department that day.
The north walkway had collapsed onto the street. It was a major impediment to operations. West Street was the key, and the bridge was blocking it. The debris partitioned off the campus into several separate areas. There's been a lot of talk about chaos, and certainly conditions were chaotic; but in each of these separate areas, the senior members had assumed command and, sometimes using runners to communicate, reestablished one operation under one command structure. At one point early on, Dispatch made the assumption from radio traffic that four separate command posts were operating independently, but I corrected that.

I set up a staging area just north of the command post with Battalion Chief Joe Nardone in charge. We put together strike teams of officers and firefighters that would report in to operations for duty.

By this time, other city agencies had begun to regroup and mobilize their efforts as well, and we were getting tremendous assistance from them, including lots of heavy equipment in a short time to clear the north bridge that was making it difficult to move resources in and out of the site.

Just minutes after the second collapse, I met with representatives from the city's Office of Emergency Management and requested that they make the calls necessary for federal disaster assistance teams. I didn't know about the incident management teams (IMTs)—federal incident overhead teams of about 30 members from the Department of Forestry, used mostly for wildland fire campaigns, who understand the planning needs for a long-term operation. Once they arrived, the IMT people led us through our planning session and interagency meetings and brought with them a template for our incident action plans. Some people in the fire service might consider it heresy; but, from my perspective, the most valuable assistance we got was from those people.

The federally mobilized operational people did a great job, but an urban fire department—and you can go back through our history from the 1960s to the 1980s, when we experienced such a tremendous fire activity and fire losses—typically measures the duration of its incidents in hours, or maybe a couple of days. To a great extent, the incident commander retains the typical functions of the incident command system instead of their being formally designated and staffed for a long time. Generally, your planning is the fireground standard operating procedures, size-up, and actions the subordinate chief decides at the scene. This was completely different. At any rate, the IMT is as absolutely committed to the planning function as the firefighter is to his operations function. I told one of the representatives that if someone had said prior to 9-11 that we would have this magnitude of a disaster and that the forest service would bail us out, I would have said, "You're nuts." And we have FEMA to thank for pointing us in that direction.

Besides supplemental agency resources, communications, operational command sectors, task force deployment, and site resource transport, we had other pressing issues that dictated our strategy. These included establishing a formal and detailed collapse rescue plan, medical operations, firefighting operations, and the stability of adjacent or peripheral structures. This was much more than a large search and rescue operation.

Of primary importance early on in the operation was the structural condition of 7 World Trade Center. Assistant Chief Frank Fellini had been approached by several chiefs who were concerned about its stability. It had been heavily damaged in the collapse and was well-involved in fire. Chief Fellini had looked at it and described to us some damage to its south side; he felt that structural components of the building had been comprised.

So when Chief Dan Nigro arrived at the command post, he convened a meeting of staff chiefs, and this was a major subject of the meeting. We were all in accord about the danger of 7 WTC, and we all agreed that it was not too conservative of a decision to establish a collapse zone for that building, move the firefighters out of the collapse area, and maintain that strategy.

Clearing the collapse zone was not easy. We had firefighters, police officers, and other rescue personnel in that area who knew that their own people were buried in that debris, and a good part of the debris field was in the collapse zone. Their brothers' being in there added to the emotional factor in directing and controlling the situation. So while ultimately we were successful in keeping the integrity of the collapse zone, it was a difficult thing to do.

Any time you have Maydays, the emotional aspect of the firefighters increases tremendously. You can address this issue with disciplined officers and communications. But with so many people on the scene with broken companies, with people not in a normal-size group, with firefighters working in a complex debris field, it made communications and understanding more difficult. Instead of communicating to 10, 15, or 20 company officers, we had a much more disjointed group to which we had to communicate critical information, information that some may not have felt was immediately necessary.

My first reaction to the 7 WTC collapse was to the noise. I could see that it happened. I contacted chiefs by radio and verified that we had a sufficiently large collapse zone. They took a survey to verify that all members were outside and safe, and then we sought answers as to whether the collapse had damaged any other structures to the extent that we would have to plan for additional collapses. That, of course, did not happen.

Last edited by benthamitemetric; 20th October 2017 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 20th October 2017, 08:59 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
Here's the kill shot to Micah's ridiculous lies and theories. I'm on a plane, so I'll leave it to others to pull the relevant quotes. Enjoy.

http://www.fireengineering.com/artic...e-command.html

And a little more background from Fellini's perspective: http://www.fireengineering.com/artic...s-command.html
Yes, I've read that. I don't think you need a subscription if you use the wayback machine to go to when the article was posted.

That article is another clue. It's strange how few references there are to the special engineer, but his advise is the reason why WTC 7 was evacuated. The actual order was given by the fire chiefs.

Last edited by MicahJava; 20th October 2017 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 20th October 2017, 09:09 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
It's strange how few references there are to the special engineer, but his advise is the reason why WTC 7 was evacuated.
As everything posted in this thread has shown, this is a lie. Only Hayden mentions him and only years after the event, at no point does Hayden claim that the evacuation was determined by his advice, and Nigro makes it clear that he made the decision himself based on his own assessment of the situation. You've repeated this lie despite it having been shown repeatedly that it's a lie, and despite the fact that you're familiar with the material that makes it clear it's a lie.

The bizarre thing is that it's not even relevant. You're lying for no reason. It's perfectly clear that, even if an engineer did predict the collapse of WTC7 and this was the cause of the evacuation, there were perfectly reasonable grounds for him to do so; your lie doesn't even support your claim (which, of course, you've barely articulated, and certainly not coherently). The only conclusion I can draw from this is that you're simply a habitual liar who tells lies because either he thinks it's fun or because he can't tell truth from lies. Do you have a better explanation of your behavior? And please don't pretend you're not lying; it's way beyond obvious.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 20th October 2017, 09:09 AM   #262
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From the second link, which is an article written by Frank Fellini:

Quote:
I responded with my aide by car to the World Trade Center (WTC) site. The North Tower had collapsed minutes before we arrived. When I reached the command post, which was originally on Chambers and West streets, two chiefs were there. One said, "Frank, they're all dead. You've got it." I was incident commander until Dan Nigro, chief of operations who was named chief of department after the death of Peter Ganci, and Chief Frank Cruthers arrived at the command post. Chief Nigro became incident commander; Chief Cruthers assisted him. I took my aide and some staff and went to West and Vesey streets and set up the operations post there. The post remained in operation for several weeks. Eventually, the command post was relocated to an empty fire station on Duane Street. Here, we held daily meetings for representatives of all agencies and responders at the start of each tour.
Initially, I had three major concerns:
  • To rescue as many victims as possible, as safely as possible.
  • The impending collapse of 7 WTC.
  • Scaffolding on 90 West Street, an old-type fire-resistive building that had been completely surrounded by scaffolding. Scaffolding on the building's north side was damaged by debris from the South Tower
.

It was hazardous to work in the area surrounding 90 West Street and 7 WTC. Buildings 4, 5, and 6 WTC were burning; 4 WTC had partially collapsed. These building were made part of the collapse zone. The decision was made not to fight these fires. Operating forces were withdrawn from 5 and 6 WTC, across from 7 WTC, and from Church and West between Vesey and Barclay. Despite these hazards, our firefighters were kept from injury.

I had been on the lower floors of 7 WTC; two deputy chiefs, who monitored the status of the fire at 7 WTC, reported that there was fire on seven floors, all of which were at least second alarms, and that the water mains were out. Frankly, we knew we had lost a number of firefighters—we didn't know exactly how many—and I wasn't going to lose any more. The south side of 7 WTC had been struck by North Tower debris, which knocked out one corner of the building and parts of the facade.

The question I had for Chief Thomas Haring, Division 6, who was operating on the east side of the site, was, "Are there exposure problems? If not, get our guys out."
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Old 20th October 2017, 09:20 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Yes, I've read that. I don't think you need a subscription if you use the wayback machine to go to when the article was posted.

That article is another clue. It's strange how few references there are to the special engineer, but his advise is the reason why WTC 7 was evacuated. The actual order was given by the fire chiefs.
Pathetic lies. There is no evidence that the evacuation was a result of the evaluation by the engineer and there are multiple explicit statements to the contrary by the various fire chiefs on the scene. You are intentionally conflating Hayden's consultation with the engineer with the chiefs' on site evaluation of WTC7. Why? Everyone, including you, can read very clearly what all the chiefs have said.
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Old 20th October 2017, 10:07 AM   #264
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Yes, I've read that. I don't think you need a subscription if you use the wayback machine to go to when the article was posted.

That article is another clue. It's strange how few references there are to the special engineer, but his advise is the reason why WTC 7 was evacuated. The actual order was given by the fire chiefs.
The building being at the site of the most horrific terrorist attack in our history and having recently had falling debris rain down on it, carving massive gouges into it and being consumed in a stack effect fire are why the building was evacuated. It did not take the voice of one man crying in the wilderness for this to become known to those in command on the ground that day.

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Old 20th October 2017, 10:23 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Oystein, nobody has to be lying for the foreknowledge to originate with the special engineer.

There is also no evidence of fire in the building at that time. There was that one guy who said he extinguished a fire coming out of a diesel tank, but that was on one floor and nobody noticed it after him.

Other investigations have found that in hindsight the structural damage could have have had any contribution to a structural failure besides starting and fanning the fires.
Fires where observed shortly after the 10:28 collapse of number one. fires were observed on floors 7-9, 11-14, 19, 22, 29 and 30. These fires had no interventions and burned freely for over five hours.

So what "time" do you refer?
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Old 20th October 2017, 10:37 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Fires where observed shortly after the 10:28 collapse of number one. fires were observed on floors 7-9, 11-14, 19, 22, 29 and 30. These fires had no interventions and burned freely for over five hours.

So what "time" do you refer?
Only in the absolutely deluded and nonsensical world of truthers is the consistent testimony of multiple members of the FDNY, including multiple chiefs, not "evidence" as to the existence of fires. You can't make this level of chutzpah up.
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Old 20th October 2017, 10:56 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Fires where observed shortly after the 10:28 collapse of number one. fires were observed on floors 7-9, 11-14, 19, 22, 29 and 30. These fires had no interventions and burned freely for over five hours.

So what "time" do you refer?
There is no photographic evidence for fires in WTC 7 until 12:10 PM
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Old 20th October 2017, 10:58 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The building being at the site of the most horrific terrorist attack in our history and having recently had falling debris rain down on it, carving massive gouges into it and being consumed in a stack effect fire are why the building was evacuated. It did not take the voice of one man crying in the wilderness for this to become known to those in command on the ground that day.

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Everything you mentioned would be a hindrance to accurately predicting when a building will collapse. So you are basically admitting that the special engineer only got it right out of sheer luck.

I repeat: the special engineer predicted at about 11:30 AM that the building would collapse "in about five or six hours". The building collapsed five and a half hours later, at 5:21 PM.
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:02 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If delusional idiots won't accept the results of at least four detailed investigations and the unanimous conclusion of all the experienced people on site that have come to the same conclusion, repeating the expert testimony isn't likely to make any difference. I mean, for Christ's sake, you've put together a series of quotes by firefighters explaining exactly why they were concerned that WTC7 would collapse, and all you can do is lie about its contents. Why would you be swayed by repeating the obvious?

Dave
I think it is wrong of you to insult other people's intelligence. The charge is valid. The foreknowledge of WTC 7 does not have a complete explanation, and that should be investigated. No investigation is complete without that simple task, it would take less effort than the ten years you've spent here.
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:05 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I think it is wrong of you to insult other people's intelligence. The charge is valid. The foreknowledge of WTC 7 does not have a complete explanation, and that should be investigated. No investigation is complete without that simple task, it would take less effort than the ten years you've spent here.
Then why do you insist on doing so with the nonsense that you post?
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:09 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
There is no photographic evidence for fires in WTC 7 until 12:10 PM
You evaded answering the original question.

Quote:
Oystein, nobody has to be lying for the foreknowledge to originate with the special engineer.

There is also no evidence of fire in the building at that time. There was that one guy who said he extinguished a fire coming out of a diesel tank, but that was on one floor and nobody noticed it after him.

Other investigations have found that in hindsight the structural damage could have have had any contribution to a structural failure besides starting and fanning the fires.
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:23 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
You evaded answering the original question.
To be precise. MicahJava tried to evade the question. And nobody is buying that bovine fecal matter. Except MicahJava for some reason.
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:44 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
There is no photographic evidence for fires in WTC 7 until 12:10 PM
So what?

Hundreds of NDNY professionals saw the blaze. Take it up with them...in person, please...
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:46 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
So what?

Hundreds of NDNY professionals saw the blaze. Take it up with them...in person, please...
That was pure copy pasta from the truther reddit forum and thus undoubtedly false
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:51 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That was pure copy pasta from the truther reddit forum and thus undoubtedly false
And you are absolutely correct. There may have been some halfhearted attempt to disguise it by cack-handed paraphrasis but you are correct.

ETA: Oops, missed out a word.
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:55 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Everything you mentioned would be a hindrance to accurately predicting when a building will collapse.
I disagree.

Quote:
So you are basically admitting that the special engineer only got it right out of sheer luck.
Rule of so.

Quote:
I repeat: the special engineer predicted at about 11:30 AM that the building would collapse "in about five or six hours". The building collapsed five and a half hours later, at 5:21 PM.
Ergo, massive conspiracy?

A statement you have concerns over the validity of is now gospel truth when it suits you?

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Old 20th October 2017, 12:47 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I think it is wrong of you to insult other people's intelligence.
I find it quite insulting that you post obvious lies along with links to the source material that demonstrates they're lies. But hypocrisy seems to be a strong suit of yours as well.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The charge is valid. The foreknowledge of WTC 7 does not have a complete explanation, and that should be investigated. No investigation is complete without that simple task, it would take less effort than the ten years you've spent here.
You've posted the quotes that summarise exactly what that level of foreknowledge was, and the reasoning that informed it. Having answered your own question, the only reason I can imagine that you're continuing to ask it is that you don't like the obvious answer. That, however, is not reality's problem but yours, and one you're determined to make insoluble.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 20th October 2017, 12:50 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I repeat: the special engineer predicted at about 11:30 AM that the building would collapse "in about five or six hours".
The source for that time, let me remind you, is your own conjecture; nowhere in the quotes you've posted is there any definite statement of when this prediction was made.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The building collapsed five and a half hours later, at 5:21 PM.
Jesus Christ. You can't even count to six.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 20th October 2017, 12:52 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
There is no photographic evidence for fires in WTC 7 until 12:10 PM
At which time, no doubt, they magically sprang to life on multiple floors.

I remember Jay Utah saying something about conspiracy theorists being unable to take inductive steps. This is a classic example of that inability.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 20th October 2017, 01:00 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
There is also no evidence of fire in the building at that time. There was that one guy who said he extinguished a fire coming out of a diesel tank, but that was on one floor and nobody noticed it after him.
Say what?

Are you talking about engineer Mike Catalano?

If so, you're grossly misrepresenting his statements to the Commission.
The vents on the top of the building and on the 5th floor sucked in the air and jammed the generators and caused them to burn.

He went to the 4th floor cafeteria where he knew there was an emergency door. In fact, there were two emergency exits. The one door had a broken handle so it couldn't be used. The other door, when opened was full of fire and smoke (colored). He also looked out the window to see if they could jump onto the ConEd building but there was a huge fire there. So they chose to wrap their heads in wet towels and make the escape through the smoky stairwell. The stairwell was below the generators that were burning. They went through the stairwell and made it to the street. They climbed up to Barclay Street when the second tower fell and chased them through the streets. He said large debris, the size of buses, was following them down the street.

[...]

Mike [who is an engineer, remember - pgimeno] said that WTC7 would have collapsed even if the other towers had not collapsed because of the fires. He said there were 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel and 20,000 gallons of coolant. This was a huge fire.
He wasn't talking about a small fire on one floor that someone extinguished.
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