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Old 9th January 2018, 10:50 PM   #1
IIIClovisIII
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Russia's role in the 9/11 attacks

After the KGB disbanded after the fall of the Soviet Union, various successor agencies came out of the smoke, the main one being the FSB. Remember that the FSB has been suspected of being behind major attacks INSIDE Russia in the late 1990s and early 2000s. More on that later.

But then there's this gem that's never gotten much press:
Quote:
It was Alexander Litvinenko, the rebel FSB officer assassinated with radioactive material in London in 2006, who named al-Zawahiri as ‘Moscow’s man in al-Qa’eda’. In a interview following the 7 July 2005 attacks in London, he claimed that the future al-Qa’eda chief had stayed in an FSB training centre in Dagestan, in the North Caucasus, in 1998. ‘He took a six-month special training course there. Then he was sent to Afghanistan, where he had never been before. Immediately after that, under supervision of his FSB bosses, he penetrated bin Laden’s entourage and soon became his deputy in al-Qa’eda … I saw those officers from the FSB directorate for Dagestan, who had been training al-Zawahiri shortly before, being reassigned to Moscow and getting promotions.’

Litvinenko repeated this allegation in a number of other interviews. And Ahmed Zakayev, regarded by many as the leader of independent Chechnya’s government-in-exile, finds the claim credible. He told me that ‘a number of emissaries’ came from the Middle East to the North Caucasus to ‘preach global jihad’ after his government made peace with Russia in 1996. ‘All of them spoke Russian, had Russian visas, and travelled through Moscow. Al-Zawahiri is simply the most infamous.’ Moscow, he says, always wanted the Chechens to talk of global jihad rather than independence; it legitimised the war against them.

In 2003, the FSB gave their version: they said they had arrested al-Zawahiri in 1997 with a fake passport, held him in Dagestan for six months and then, having failed to establish his identity, deported him as an illegal immigrant. It was only after 9/11, they said, while exchanging intelligence with Americans, that they realised they had let one of the world’s most wanted terrorists off the hook.
These claims echo claims made years earlier by Litvinenko and historian Yuri Felshtinsky that the Russian FSB often infiltrates and manipulates Chechen terrorist organizations to nudge them in a certain direction.
Now yes, I know, Litvinenko had said a lot of weird **** over the years before he died, but in my opinion you have to at least consider some of the more practical allegations.

It's interesting that Vladimir Putin was the first world leader to reach out to President Bush after the 9/11 attacks. In 1999, he also very prematurely placed the blame of massive terror attacks in Russia on the Chechens. In reality, only FSB agents were arrested for planting explosives, and released.

I want to include this article, which has more details about his stay, what little there is, anyway.
Quote:
The murkiest of these relations, however, has been the connection between al-Qa’ida and Russian intelligence. While the outlines of the story have been known for years, and even admitted by Moscow and the mujahidin, details remain elusive. Moreover, asking important questions about this relationship seems to be an issue few appear interested in probing deeply, even in the United States.

As a bonus, there's also the curious case of the 2013 Boston Marathon bombing I've brought up before. Yuri Felshtinsky pointed out in 2013 that known Chechen extremists were allowed free passage through various Russian cities and territories prior to their journey back to the U.S.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 10. Please do not disguise swear words in the public sections, but type them out in full and correctly spelled and let the autocensor deal with them

Last edited by Agatha; Today at 05:20 PM.
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Old 11th January 2018, 01:36 AM   #2
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Interesting.
This is naturally going to be difficult to prove, especially following the murder of Litvinenko, and I notice that the articles also point to possible links with Iranian intelligence, as well as the more well-known ones to the Saudi and Pakistani secret services.
I wonder, though, how well this has worked out for Russia. It might have looked like a good idea to disrupt the US, and try to weaken it by encouraging jihadist attacks. However, as Russia is now fighting those same jihadists in Syria, and has suffered a number of domestic terror attacks as a consequence, this may be coming back to bite them.
You'd think they would have looked at the American example, in which the US aid to the mujahideen, funnelled via the Pakistani ISI, and the subsequent US abandonment of Afghanistan, created a situation in which the Taliban could flourish, and Afghanistan be consumed by civil war. Realpolitik is a dangerous game.
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Old 11th January 2018, 01:54 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Interesting.
This is naturally going to be difficult to prove, especially following the murder of Litvinenko, and I notice that the articles also point to possible links with Iranian intelligence, as well as the more well-known ones to the Saudi and Pakistani secret services.
I wonder, though, how well this has worked out for Russia. It might have looked like a good idea to disrupt the US, and try to weaken it by encouraging jihadist attacks. However, as Russia is now fighting those same jihadists in Syria, and has suffered a number of domestic terror attacks as a consequence, this may be coming back to bite them.
You'd think they would have looked at the American example, in which the US aid to the mujahideen, funnelled via the Pakistani ISI, and the subsequent US abandonment of Afghanistan, created a situation in which the Taliban could flourish, and Afghanistan be consumed by civil war. Realpolitik is a dangerous game.
As for the dogs biting the handlers, we know that there were several real attacks on Russian targets from terrorists during the Chechen wars, even as some faction of Russian intelligence seemed to be working behind the scenes for a few others (apartment bombings, Nord Ost, etc). The hostile feedback is what kept his agenda going strong, he was able to portray them as freedom hating, inhuman monsters (ironic), sounds kinda similar to how many Americans viewed the victims of Iraq and Afghanistan. And indeed this sentiment is probably what made Clinton and Bush go easy on Russia's own "War on Terror".

As for Syria I think Putin was willing to take the risk to keep allies in Assad and Iran strong, because, in all honesty, the United States is his real enemy, IS and domestic terrorists give him a bad day at most, but the US is a permanent headache for him.

Last edited by IIIClovisIII; 11th January 2018 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 11th January 2018, 02:11 AM   #4
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Islamic violent extremists have never been choosy about where they get their money, weapons, training and intel from: they would happily have taken the assistance of Russia against US targets, just like they took US assistance against Soviet targets.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:44 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Islamic violent extremists have never been choosy about where they get their money, weapons, training and intel from: they would happily have taken the assistance of Russia against US targets, just like they took US assistance against Soviet targets.
As a matter of fact, Al Qaeda never accepted any American assistance in their fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan: they were funded directly by Saudi and Kuwaiti money.
The CIA allowed the Pakistani intelligence service to disburse their money as they (the Pakistanis) saw fit. This led to them funding the most extremist of the groups, as they wanted a more Islamist Afghanistan which would then be an ally against India. The rise of the Taliban is, therefore, the fault of the Pakistanis, and the Saudis who funded the madrassas that spawned them, rather than the US.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:58 AM   #6
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Let's assume Zawahiri was a Russian asset in the late 1990s and used in Afghanistan - that in itself is no evidence, not even an indication, that he later acted in the know or pay of the Russians. Much like US services tending to extremists means they remote control them. As has been pointed out, these are all equal-opportunity murderers who have beef with all of the state player - RU, US, SA... The buck for 9/11 mostly stops in Saudi Arabia, which is aligner with the USA and in economic competition with Russia. Perhaps Russian intelligence factions were in contact with maverick factions within the House of Saud and facilitated "something", that'd be plausible, if there was any evidence. I don't see Russia as a main actor though.
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Old 13th January 2018, 04:16 AM   #7
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There is a bit about Russian collusion on You Tube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz6kYe-DUTo
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Old 13th January 2018, 04:47 AM   #8
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There's all sorts of **** on Youtube. You might want to summarise.
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Old 13th January 2018, 08:46 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
There's all sorts of **** on Youtube. You might want to summarise.
That's too controversial and historical and not relevant to this thread. Try keeping it dark and avoid plain speaking.
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Old 13th January 2018, 09:17 AM   #10
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Or not....
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Old 13th January 2018, 12:03 PM   #11
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I often imagine a scene like this play out:

The FSB has Al Zawahiri in a cell, they bring in another Arab -speaking "inmate" in the cell next door. This "inmate" starts a conversation with Al Zawahiri, they become close acquiantances. They order the other inmate out occasionally and take him to the interrogation room, but they are really taking him back to their secret compound to relay intelligence and instruct him what to do next; the focus is anti-Americanism and future ambitions, who is he trying to hook up with, etc.
Every so often the inmate agent returns to his cell and the guards leave them alone to discuss Al Zawahiri's plans.

Al Zawahiri goes to Afghanistan, having learned more about bin Laden and what he's about, how he can scheme with him to strike back at America, etc. For the next two years they devise a plan with Khalid Muhammad that leads to the September 11th attacks.

Putin, engaged in a phony Chechen war based on a phony terrorist attack, reaches out to Bush after 9/11. "We're soo sorry to hear what has happened; NO MERCY FOR THE TERRORISTS...."
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Old 13th January 2018, 12:28 PM   #12
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The problem was all of this is that KSM brought the planes plan to UBL, and that this caused a split within Al Qaeda between those who felt the repercussions would be catastrophic, and the UBL-led anti-Western action.

9/11 was all planned organically within Al Qaeda for the simple reason that UBL, KSM, and Al Zawahiri knew they could not trust outsiders.

Alexander Litvinenko had converted to Islam, and just wanted to put Putin's face on an extremist attack, a classic, old-school KGB counter propaganda game. His pal bearers were the Chechen hierarchy.
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Old 13th January 2018, 02:17 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Alexander Litvinenko had converted to Islam, and just wanted to put Putin's face on an extremist attack, a classic, old-school KGB counter propaganda game. His pal bearers were the Chechen hierarchy.
I had heard Litvinenko converted to Islam but not sure where. Not sure if true. But this would have happened a while after he moved to the UK. He was already blaming the FSB for staging terrorist attacks shortly before his departure, while he was in custody in Russia.
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Old 13th January 2018, 05:11 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by IIIClovisIII View Post
... It's interesting that Vladimir Putin was the first world leader to reach out to President Bush after the 9/11 attacks. In 1999, he also very prematurely placed the blame of massive terror attacks in Russia on the Chechens ...
It wasn't at all surprising that Putin immediately reached out after 9/11. For years Russia had got a terrible press in the West over its actions in trying to hold onto Chechnya and here was an opportunity to find common cause and say Russia's fight was also with global Islamist terrorism rather than an independence movement.

It's a relatively plausible conspiracy theory that the terrible apartment buildings bombings in 1999 were a casus belli faked by the FSB but the idea that the Chechen wars were somehow phoney and just a smokescreen for Russia's long game of creating agents provocateur to inspire Islamist attacks on the USA, well it doesn't really make a blip on my plausibility radar. Chechnya was a major crisis for Russia, both directly and for its negative effects on military morale and Russia's international standing. The idea that this was somehow all about the USA seems, well, a bit silly.
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Old 13th January 2018, 06:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It's a relatively plausible conspiracy theory that the terrible apartment buildings bombings in 1999 were a casus belli faked by the FSB but the idea that the Chechen wars were somehow phoney and just a smokescreen for Russia's long game of creating agents provocateur to inspire Islamist attacks on the USA, well it doesn't really make a blip on my plausibility radar. Chechnya was a major crisis for Russia, both directly and for its negative effects on military morale and Russia's international standing. The idea that this was somehow all about the USA seems, well, a bit silly.
The 1999 apartment bombings are as close to a real conspiracy as you can get without proof, in my view.

The al Qaeda thing kind of tickles my innards so I just wanted to put it out there

It's about time some plausible conspiracy theories are introduced in these forums since most of the crazies seem to have left. But the problem is it's tough to talk about them sometimes cause many people aren't familiar enough with terrorist attacks in Russia to comment. They aren't as cool.
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Old 13th January 2018, 06:24 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It wasn't at all surprising that Putin immediately reached out after 9/11. For years Russia had got a terrible press in the West over its actions in trying to hold onto Chechnya and here was an opportunity to find common cause and say Russia's fight was also with global Islamist terrorism rather than an independence movement.

It's a relatively plausible conspiracy theory that the terrible apartment buildings bombings in 1999 were a casus belli faked by the FSB but the idea that the Chechen wars were somehow phoney and just a smokescreen for Russia's long game of creating agents provocateur to inspire Islamist attacks on the USA, well it doesn't really make a blip on my plausibility radar. Chechnya was a major crisis for Russia, both directly and for its negative effects on military morale and Russia's international standing. The idea that this was somehow all about the USA seems, well, a bit silly.
True Russia just played opertunist, the people here even in the early years of
Debunking suspected that a lot of the anti American propoganda was misinformation, from Putin's Russia. Most people probably didn't even know or understand how Much Russia, Iran, and Venezuela supported and funded the propoganda Campaign, including furnishing online trolls and hackers.
Mostly on my space and AoL forums.
I would tell you what I know but now it is ancient history.
The 9/11 Truth movement was one of the most effective organizations of Conspiracy propoganda.
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Old 14th January 2018, 02:23 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by IIIClovisIII View Post
I often imagine a scene like this play out:

The FSB has Al Zawahiri in a cell, they bring in another Arab -speaking "inmate" in the cell next door. This "inmate" starts a conversation with Al Zawahiri, they become close acquiantances. They order the other inmate out occasionally and take him to the interrogation room, but they are really taking him back to their secret compound to relay intelligence and instruct him what to do next; the focus is anti-Americanism and future ambitions, who is he trying to hook up with, etc.
Every so often the inmate agent returns to his cell and the guards leave them alone to discuss Al Zawahiri's plans.

Al Zawahiri goes to Afghanistan, having learned more about bin Laden and what he's about, how he can scheme with him to strike back at America, etc. For the next two years they devise a plan with Khalid Muhammad that leads to the September 11th attacks.

Putin, engaged in a phony Chechen war based on a phony terrorist attack, reaches out to Bush after 9/11. "We're soo sorry to hear what has happened; NO MERCY FOR THE TERRORISTS...."
Nice idea, but Al Zawahiri was well aware of the existence of Al Qaeda long before he was arrested by the Russians. He had been radicalised at an early age by Sayeed Qutb, and for a long time was a rival of OBL. It was only the destruction of Islamic Jihad by the Egyptian security forces that pushed him into the arms of Al Qaeda. Bin Laden had the funds and the glamour, and Zawahiri had to choose between being marginalised or joining his rival.
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Old 14th January 2018, 06:32 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by IIIClovisIII View Post
It's about time some plausible conspiracy theories are introduced in these forums since most of the crazies seem to have left. But the problem is it's tough to talk about them sometimes cause many people aren't familiar enough with terrorist attacks in Russia to comment. They aren't as cool.
I think the problem is that this conspiracy theory isn't even remotely plausible.
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Old 14th January 2018, 08:54 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the problem is that this conspiracy theory isn't even remotely plausible.
No it isn't the real conspiracy is the Propoganda war, but so few people here know anything about it that it is hardly worth discussing.
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Old 14th January 2018, 09:25 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the problem is that this conspiracy theory isn't even remotely plausible.
Not if we downgrade the MIHOP to LIHOP given the FSB's probable background check on the Arabs and subsequent quiet release. More points on their plausible deniability card.
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Old 14th January 2018, 10:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by IIIClovisIII View Post
Not if we downgrade the MIHOP to LIHOP given the FSB's probable background check on the Arabs and subsequent quiet release. More points on their plausible deniability card.; )
How would a background check reveal plans made in the future?
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Old 14th January 2018, 12:26 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How would a background check reveal plans made in the future?
I didn't think I needed to spell it out. The scenario is....they notice he is a person of high interest who is affiliated with anti-American terrorist organizations. Then they kicked him out "as an illegal immigrant". True, probably was illegal,...he came in with fake IDs, but there is a passive agenda there.
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Old 14th January 2018, 01:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by IIIClovisIII View Post
I didn't think I needed to spell it out. The scenario is....they notice he is a person of high interest who is affiliated with anti-American terrorist organizations. Then they kicked him out "as an illegal immigrant". True, probably was illegal,...he came in with fake IDs, but there is a passive agenda there.
I'm sorry; when are you going to actually spell out this conspiracy theory?

What did the Russians know, and when did they know it?
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Old 15th January 2018, 04:16 PM   #24
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Russians able to influence UBL's buddies? Russians with the BS skill, second rate fake news fooling idiots around the world - why would suicide UBL buddies work for Russians. Russians who rank the same as Americans for UBL's minions - Kafir

Is 9/11 truth a Russian propaganda failure

Are 9/11 truth nuts, and CIT failed followers, Russian puppets with unlimited overwhelming ignorance
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Old 16th January 2018, 12:40 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Is 9/11 truth a Russian propaganda failure

Are 9/11 truth nuts, and CIT failed followers, Russian puppets with unlimited overwhelming ignorance
You bring up something interesting Sir.

You know RT has invited 9/11 Truthers on to the show before,...but some Kremlin spokespeople in the early 2000s have compared the Russian apartment bombings theories to 9/11 conspiracy theories in order to create the impression that they're equally wacky.
You have Controlled Demo proponents and then you have on another day non-CD LIHOP proponents without any apparent contradiction.

It's funny though how many conspiracy theorists seem to love Putin and Ahmadinejad.
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Old 16th January 2018, 03:54 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by IIIClovisIII View Post
You bring up something interesting Sir.

You know RT has invited 9/11 Truthers on to the show before,...but some Kremlin spokespeople in the early 2000s have compared the Russian apartment bombings theories to 9/11 conspiracy theories in order to create the impression that they're equally wacky.
You have Controlled Demo proponents and then you have on another day non-CD LIHOP proponents without any apparent contradiction.
They don't have to push a consistent message to sow seeds of doubt and confusion. In fact it probably helps if things seem incoherent as the best outcome they could hope for is that people just conclude they don't know what to believe and all sides are lying to them.
Quote:
It's funny though how many conspiracy theorists seem to love Putin and Ahmadinejad.
Contrarians love to be contrary.
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Old 16th January 2018, 06:18 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Russians able to influence UBL's buddies? Russians with the BS skill, second rate fake news fooling idiots around the world - why would suicide UBL buddies work for Russians. Russians who rank the same as Americans for UBL's minions - Kafir

Is 9/11 truth a Russian propaganda failure

Are 9/11 truth nuts, and CIT failed followers, Russian puppets with unlimited overwhelming ignorance
Basicly yes the Russians took the opertunity provided them by the 9/11 truth movement to disrupt Americas Ties with it's Arab allies in the middle east.
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Old 16th January 2018, 06:21 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by IIIClovisIII View Post
You bring up something interesting Sir.

You know RT has invited 9/11 Truthers on to the show before,...but some Kremlin spokespeople in the early 2000s have compared the Russian apartment bombings theories to 9/11 conspiracy theories in order to create the impression that they're equally wacky.
You have Controlled Demo proponents and then you have on another day non-CD LIHOP proponents without any apparent contradiction.

It's funny though how many conspiracy theorists seem to love Putin and Ahmadinejad.
It isn't funny when you know Russian Trolls and others dirrectly from RTV were helping Dr. Jones, and Alex Jones even in the early years it was a propoganda gold mine for Russia.
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Old 16th January 2018, 06:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by IIIClovisIII View Post
You bring up something interesting Sir.

You know RT has invited 9/11 Truthers on to the show before,...but some Kremlin spokespeople in the early 2000s have compared the Russian apartment bombings theories to 9/11 conspiracy theories in order to create the impression that they're equally wacky.
You have Controlled Demo proponents and then you have on another day non-CD LIHOP proponents without any apparent contradiction.

It's funny though how many conspiracy theorists seem to love Putin and Ahmadinejad.
What is the common thread? They all hate America with a passion.
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Old Today, 05:23 PM   #30
Agatha
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Mod Warning Please ensure posts in this thread refer to the alleged Russian connection with 9/11 rather than alleged Russian connections to elections and the like; you may post about the latter in threads for that purpose but in this one, please stay on topic.
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