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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 21st November 2020, 09:06 AM   #641
Darat
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I actually agree with you, and personally believe Trump’s efforts to overturn the election results will fail.

However, I’ve learned to hedge my bets on all things Trump in the last 5 or so years and my faith in the systems designed to keep people like him in check has been profoundly shaken.

But win or lose, Trump continues to severely damage this country. We’re hemorrhaging right now. And assurances that we probably won’t bleed out and die don’t feel very comforting.
That’s the problem, they weren’t designed to control someone like him, they were designed to control people with some integrity, some “honour” and a sense of personal responsibility. Trump has none of those attributes.

Mind you I can see after 21st January that there will suddenly be a huge ruckus about controlling the president and reducing his powers... Oh and executive orders will again be tyrannical!
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Old 21st November 2020, 09:16 AM   #642
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We might disagree on what to call this thing, and most likely it'll end up being called a failure, but it's clear that Trump has been causing an unprecedented amount of damage to the country. It is serious, it is tragic, and it is alarming. He's broken a lot of stuff.

It appears so far that the American electoral system is robust enough to survive this assault, but this has to be a wake up call. One big problem is that the worst component of the GOP seems likely to renew the assault as soon as possible. One reassuring fact is that, notably at the state level, many Republicans are not willing to help kill American democracy.

This is going to be a nasty couple of months, though.
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Old 21st November 2020, 09:18 AM   #643
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I actually agree with you, and personally believe Trump’s efforts to overturn the election results will fail.

However, I’ve learned to hedge my bets on all things Trump in the last 5 or so years and my faith in the systems designed to keep people like him in check has been profoundly shaken.

But win or lose, Trump continues to severely damage this country. We’re hemorrhaging right now. And assurances that we probably won’t bleed out and die don’t feel very comforting.
I remember when the Swift Boat thing sank John Kerry's campaign. The Dems were caught flat-footed by the whole thing, didn't know how to respond and were very, very slow to try to counter the allegations.

When the email investigation was reopened at the last minute, again there was surprise.

But the Dem's have learned, and were ready and waiting for the GOP to make false accusations this time around.

I think that's a big reason why these challenges to the votes have been so ineffective - they were predicted months ago. The GOP is doing exactly what the Dems predicted they would try to do, as published in a number of articles.

We had articles predicting that the GOP would try to get Republican-controlled state governments to override the popular vote (if those Republican-controlled states voted Dem) and appoint pro-Republican EC delegations. Now, months later, that's exactly what they are trying to do.

I think if the Dems had not have been expecting this, things might have been more problematic. The effort to overturn the votes has failed, in part, because it was predicted and prepared for ("See - we told you so!"). Had the Democrats not been ready for it, had this been a surprise - who knows?

Last edited by crescent; 21st November 2020 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 21st November 2020, 09:20 AM   #644
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
We might disagree on what to call this thing, and most likely it'll end up being called a failure, but it's clear that Trump has been causing an unprecedented amount of damage to the country. It is serious, it is tragic, and it is alarming. He's broken a lot of stuff.

It appears so far that the American electoral system is robust enough to survive this assault, but this has to be a wake up call. One big problem is that the worst component of the GOP seems likely to renew the assault as soon as possible. One reassuring fact is that, notably at the state level, many Republicans are not willing to help kill American democracy.

This is going to be a nasty couple of months, though.

He didn't just move the Overton Window, he ripped it halfway out of the wall, broke the frame and cracked the glass. Then punched a hole in the wall where he thought the window should be.

Last edited by crescent; 21st November 2020 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 21st November 2020, 09:26 AM   #645
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That’s the problem, they weren’t designed to control someone like him, they were designed to control people with some integrity, some “honour” and a sense of personal responsibility. Trump has none of those attributes.

Mind you I can see after 21st January that there will suddenly be a huge ruckus about controlling the president and reducing his powers... Oh and executive orders will again be tyrannical!
And after having thrown billions away on a useless piece of fence, suddenly government spending by Dems will be fiscally irresponsible.

Anyway, as for the design of the American government in general, I think there are protections built in, even for a rogue jackass like Trump. I think that the Executive is not sufficient in itself to seize control of the country. They need the election, and it seems as if they can't overturn it.
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Old 21st November 2020, 09:35 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
And after having thrown billions away on a useless piece of fence, suddenly government spending by Dems will be fiscally irresponsible.

Anyway, as for the design of the American government in general, I think there are protections built in, even for a rogue jackass like Trump. I think that the Executive is not sufficient in itself to seize control of the country. They need the election, and it seems as if they can't overturn it.
We might be able to sell off the wall, piece by piece, to get some money back.
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Old 21st November 2020, 09:45 AM   #647
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
We might be able to sell off the wall, piece by piece, to get some money back.
Trump has failed at every other business he tried. Maybe he could open a scrapyard for the dreams of his base.
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Old 21st November 2020, 09:48 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Trump has failed at every other business he tried. Maybe he could open a scrapyard for the dreams of his base.
I'll give him 100 bucks for his toupee - no need to send it, I'll collect it myself.
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Old 21st November 2020, 09:49 AM   #649
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
He didn't just move the Overton Window, he ripped it halfway out of the wall, broke the frame and cracked the glass. Then punched a hole in the wall where he thought the window should be.
Can the Overton Window be shifted back? I'd think so. I'd hope so. But it's sort of like putting the genie back in the bottle.
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:04 AM   #650
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump is going to give up soon if he hasn't already.
He MAY give up on attempts to overturn the election. May. He might allow transition work to begin. But I doubt it.

In any case, he'll be banging the rigged elections, millions of illegal votes drum to the day he dies.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Time to pull your heads out of the sand, it's a coup attempt no matter how you slice it.
Absolutely. Fortunately, like pretty much everything else in the administration, the people working on it are incompetent morons.
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I actually agree with you, and personally believe Trump’s efforts to overturn the election results will fail.

However, I’ve learned to hedge my bets on all things Trump in the last 5 or so years and my faith in the systems designed to keep people like him in check has been profoundly shaken.

But win or lose, Trump continues to severely damage this country. We’re hemorrhaging right now. And assurances that we probably won’t bleed out and die don’t feel very comforting.
I agree with everything there. He'll eventually be out but the damage will last for decades. Especially the destruction of confidence in American democracy.
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:10 AM   #651
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There were ten. 3 were invalidated under state level laws, the others stood.
You're right, I was imprecise. I meant enough faithless electors to throw the election to Clinton.

Thanks for the correction.

Last edited by phiwum; 21st November 2020 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:10 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
One reassuring fact is that, notably at the state level, many Republicans are not willing to help kill American democracy.
This has come into question just now with the GOP seeking to delay certification in MI.
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:16 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
It appears so far that the American electoral system is robust enough to survive this assault, but this has to be a wake up call.
I find it incredibly disturbing that the future of American democracy is even now in the hands of a couple hundred (GOP) state legislators and even fewer individuals on county-level election boards.
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:16 AM   #654
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Can the Overton Window be shifted back? I'd think so. I'd hope so. But it's sort of like putting the genie back in the bottle.
Studies suggest that it can't ... but it can be replaced.

If you convince enough people that the past is the past, and what we do from here is something new, then the old standards of what is acceptable no longer apply - see Jim Crow etc.

That is why I think we absolutely need a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to document, not prosecute, all the violations and crimes by all the people under the Trump Administration.

The only way forward is to look objectively at the last four years, and then put them behind us.
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:21 AM   #655
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Studies suggest that it can't ... but it can be replaced.

If you convince enough people that the past is the past, and what we do from here is something new, then the old standards of what is acceptable no longer apply - see Jim Crow etc.

That is why I think we absolutely need a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to document, not prosecute, all the violations and crimes by all the people under the Trump Administration.

The only way forward is to look objectively at the last four years, and then put them behind us.
You can do all the reports and commissions you want, but if there is no deterrent why should the next Trump not do the same? People need to know that there are consequences if you act as Trump and his cronies have done.
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:21 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I find it incredibly disturbing that the future of American democracy is even now in the hands of a couple hundred (GOP) state legislators and even fewer individuals on county-level election boards.
I understand that Witmer has the power to step in if she has cause, and she absolutely would have cause if they try this on Monday. They have a duty to certify, and they can be turfed if they fail in their duty.
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:25 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You can do all the reports and commissions you want, but if there is no deterrent why should the next Trump not do the same? People need to know that there are consequences if you act as Trump and his cronies have done.
Arguably both are needed. Trump clearly needs to be swatted back to insignificance, but it can't seem vindictive or arbitrary, because that'd fuel retaliation. Well, there may be no way to avoid that anyway.
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:32 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You can do all the reports and commissions you want, but if there is no deterrent why should the next Trump not do the same? People need to know that there are consequences if you act as Trump and his cronies have done.

This.

Merely documenting away and making people aware, while necessary, might, if decoupled from punishment following on these investigations, arguably actually present future Trumps with a detailed how-to manual!

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Old 21st November 2020, 10:38 AM   #659
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Can the Overton Window be shifted back? I'd think so. I'd hope so. But it's sort of like putting the genie back in the bottle.
You could maybe trick a genie into going back in the bottle.
This might be more of a toothpaste back in the tube issue.
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:47 AM   #660
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I find it incredibly disturbing that the future of American democracy is even now in the hands of a couple hundred (GOP) state legislators and even fewer individuals on county-level election boards.
Its not. Or rather, no more than at any other time.

Put yourself in their position. You know Trump lost (and yes, they all know. Trump is uniquely stupid on this point). You know that capriciously overturning election results is Treason with a capital T. You also know you have to maintain some semblance of solidarity with your party if you want a political future. You know damn right well the military is sworn to protect the Constitution above blindly following orders, and will string you personally up by your balls if you get treasonous. What do you do?

IMO, you soft-pedal going along with the crazy for a couple months, without doing anything that would put you on Team Capital Offense. And that is precisely what we are seeing.
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Old 21st November 2020, 11:34 AM   #661
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
You have been saying this for the last two weeks.
My how times flies.
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Old 21st November 2020, 11:41 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
Because that worked so well on Lindsey Graham, right?

Hypocrisy is not a rule they are playing by.
It didn't stop him voting for Barrett. Doesn't mean it didn't turn some voters off. Right now I'd love to see a Lincoln Project like ad for the 2 Senate seats in Georgia: Vote for 2 Senators that aren't in the cult.

It also might make for some ads in 2022.

Did it disgust you or not?
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Old 21st November 2020, 11:44 AM   #663
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The Overton Window is another thing broken in a post-fact world.

There is no Overtone Window for facts.
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Old 21st November 2020, 11:51 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You can do all the reports and commissions you want, but if there is no deterrent why should the next Trump not do the same? People need to know that there are consequences if you act as Trump and his cronies have done.
Arguably, Trump could get away with so much crime, because so many people where unsure what and what not was allowed for a President to do.

It will be much easier to get a quick Court ruling if you can bring a Commission Report showing that Trump did something similar that was deemed to be unacceptable.
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Old 21st November 2020, 11:58 AM   #665
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And I like how you pretend that the vague notion of 'risk' is a hard line.



Agreed, absolutely. And? Oh, wait...you think this is johnny karate's personal Echo Chamber? Bad news, bud; it's a discussion thread. Some discussion...and yes, even argument...might offend your delicate sensibilities. I've heard it said that you find comfort with those you agree with, and growth with those whom you don't. You've made it clear what you value.



As you said, these are dark times, and yes, I'll take a mean-spirited laugh at watching the soon-to-be-ex-POTUS humiliate himself on the International stage, considering his contribution to said darkness. But if you think I am lecturing, you're a damned fool. Many here are still tilting at the Trump windmill.

I'm saying we should relish this. Shout it loud and proud, and make sure every MAGA hat wearer sees, in high resolution, the kind of sniveling cowardly Loser they have been cheerleading for four long years. Sear it in the mind of every pick 'em up driver who is hastily rolling up their Trump flag. They backed a weakling, a petty tyrant, and they were entirely in the wrong Make sure they remember this.

Or, you know, keep entertaining this exciting fantasy about him having the power to establish a ******* coup.

I'll cop to being a smug jerk-off, tho. And as one to another, I hope you enjoy your nail-biting. He's just so powerful! I'll be over here watching him wipe his last shreds of dignity away like a cheap spray tan.
Personally I'm with you on rubbing the salt into the wounds of the jag-offs who cultishly cleave to drumpf. Whether this is a wise course for healing is up for argument, of course.

But my principal concern is the way the ground is being prepared by incompetrump for a future competrump.
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:09 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
So you are finally coming to agree with him that there is a coup attempt and that it is a serious matter.

Looks like you may yet earn your light side badge.
I did visit the Darkside briefly last night. There are too many Senators who aren't speaking up.

But as a point of clarification, if anyone thinks I was saying there are no problems here arising from Trump's propaganda, they weren't reading my posts very carefully. For example I mentioned certain cultists blowing up federal buildings.

Given the militia group operating in MI, I'd say we are in for some serious right-wing terrorism.

But... Hayes made a point of calling Trump a loser who would not be in office after Jan 19th. That part of the plan was never going to happen.

As for "2 weeks" He's already making noise he knows his path to reelection is non-existent. And there is a lot of noise to get going on Biden's transition.

Trump has moved from denial to revenge, Trump's stages of grief differ from normal people. Everyone else is always responsible for his failures, never him.

Trump told ally he's trying to get back at Democrats for questioning legitimacy of his own election
Quote:
President Donald Trump told an ally that he knows he lost, but that he is delaying the transition process and is aggressively trying to sow doubt about the election results in order to get back at Democrats for questioning the legitimacy of his own election in 2016, especially with the Russia investigation, a source familiar with the President's thinking told CNN on Thursday.

The President's refusal to concede, as CNN has previously reported, stems in part from his perceived grievance that Hillary Clinton and former President Barack Obama undermined his own presidency by saying Russia interfered in the 2016 election and could have impacted the outcome, people around him have said.
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:10 PM   #667
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Its not. Or rather, no more than at any other time.

Put yourself in their position. You know Trump lost (and yes, they all know. Trump is uniquely stupid on this point). You know that capriciously overturning election results is Treason with a capital T. You also know you have to maintain some semblance of solidarity with your party if you want a political future. You know damn right well the military is sworn to protect the Constitution above blindly following orders, and will string you personally up by your balls if you get treasonous. What do you do?

IMO, you soft-pedal going along with the crazy for a couple months, without doing anything that would put you on Team Capital Offense. And that is precisely what we are seeing.
You have an inflated notion of what the military's role is in politics. They'll not unilaterally get involved or take any action, if the oaths taken by its members is adhered to.
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:16 PM   #668
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That’s the problem, they weren’t designed to control someone like him, they were designed to control people with some integrity, some “honour” and a sense of personal responsibility. Trump has none of those attributes.

Mind you I can see after 21st January that there will suddenly be a huge ruckus about controlling the president and reducing his powers... Oh and executive orders will again be tyrannical!
And yet they are working this time. He's knows he can't stay.

But had the election been closer the checks and balances might very well have failed.

OTOH, our checks and balances don't work at all when the Senate has a scummy leader like McConnell. He's done as much damage as Trump, using Trump as his means to control all 3 branches.
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:27 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I find it incredibly disturbing that the future of American democracy is even now in the hands of a couple hundred (GOP) state legislators and even fewer individuals on county-level election boards.
I find it incredibly disturbing that the future of American democracy was and is in the hands of McConnell starting with his refusal to put Merrick's confirmation on the calendar.

Absolute control of the Senate should not be in the hands of the Majority Leader. That is a big flaw in the system.
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:30 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Arguably both are needed. Trump clearly needs to be swatted back to insignificance, but it can't seem vindictive or arbitrary, because that'd fuel retaliation. Well, there may be no way to avoid that anyway.
He already views his election loss as vindictive.
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:34 PM   #671
The Great Zaganza
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There is NO POINT WHATSOEVER to not act decisively against Trump where the law allows to: the Biden Cabinet could can carry him on a palanquin, and he would complain that they deliberately aren't moving fast enough.
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:34 PM   #672
alfaniner
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
He already views his election loss as vindictive.
Gehhh... He views his 2016 win as vindictive. Because he was robbed because he didn't win by more. How dare any Democrats vote against him for President?
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:37 PM   #673
eerok
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
There is NO POINT WHATSOEVER to not act decisively against Trump where the law allows to: the Biden Cabinet could can carry him on a palanquin, and he would complain that they deliberately aren't moving fast enough.
I absolutely think Trump 2024 should amount to nothing more than a milestone in his prison sentence.
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:39 PM   #674
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Arguably, Trump could get away with so much crime, because so many people where unsure what and what not was allowed for a President to do.

It will be much easier to get a quick Court ruling if you can bring a Commission Report showing that Trump did something similar that was deemed to be unacceptable.
Biden said he wants to use a bipartisan commission to decide what to do about Trump. I'm not sure he called it a commission.

Another short MSNBC video: Neal Katyal: All of Trump’s criminal immunity expires in about 60 days
Quote:
Former U.S. acting solicitor general Neal Katyal explains the charges President Trump might face after he leaves office and the reason why his current legal efforts are incriminating him even more
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:41 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Personally I'm with you on rubbing the salt into the wounds of the jag-offs who cultishly cleave to drumpf. Whether this is a wise course for healing is up for argument, of course.

But my principal concern is the way the ground is being prepared by incompetrump for a future competrump.
Yes, the new front guy worries me, too. Trump will be tossed off like soiled underwear as soon as they find a guy with the same agenda, but more eloquent and smarter. The new guy will still need that gaping hole where his soul should be.

Now that I think of it, I wonder if a female furher would be palatable to the rabble?

Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
You have an inflated notion of what the military's role is in politics. They'll not unilaterally get involved or take any action, if the oaths taken by its members is adhered to.
I meant that as a cut to the chase regarding his enforcing a theoretical coup. His trump card would need to be commanding the armed forces. He wouldn't.
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:44 PM   #676
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Gehhh... He views his 2016 win as vindictive. Because he was robbed because he didn't win by more. How dare any Democrats vote against him for President?
Pettitrump has a timeless pit he pulls continual vengeance out of. His pathology is severe.
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Old 21st November 2020, 01:03 PM   #677
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Now that I think of it, I wonder if a female furher would be palatable to the rabble?
Perhaps - but only if she's hot.

It's a well-known fact that woman are attracted to rapey men, which is why more of them voted for Trump than Hillary. To counter that the GOP needs someone who will attract more white males (the demographic that was most turned off by Trump). She should also be Black, Latino or Asian, since those are the demographics that are leaning more conservative these days (and their racism make them less likely to support outsiders). I would totally vote for an Asian hottie!
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Old 21st November 2020, 01:17 PM   #678
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Perhaps - but only if she's hot.

It's a well-known fact that woman are attracted to rapey men, which is why more of them voted for Trump than Hillary. To counter that the GOP needs someone who will attract more white males (the demographic that was most turned off by Trump). She should also be Black, Latino or Asian, since those are the demographics that are leaning more conservative these days (and their racism make them less likely to support outsiders). I would totally vote for an Asian hottie!
I'd go whole hog for a hot Latina. That could work, really. Kind of an alt-right AOC to bring that stereotypical feistyness against the old white men's club. As long as she knew her place, of course. If they could get her barefoot and pregnant on the campaign trail, she'd be unstoppable.
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Old 21st November 2020, 02:58 PM   #679
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I absolutely think Trump 2024 should amount to nothing more than a milestone in his prison sentence.
I think 20-24 to Life sounds just about right.
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Old 21st November 2020, 03:45 PM   #680
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Perhaps - but only if she's hot.

It's a well-known fact that woman are attracted to rapey men, which is why more of them voted for Trump than Hillary. To counter that the GOP needs someone who will attract more white males (the demographic that was most turned off by Trump). She should also be Black, Latino or Asian, since those are the demographics that are leaning more conservative these days (and their racism make them less likely to support outsiders). I would totally vote for an Asian hottie!
When Michelle Malkin becomes President, its your fault.
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