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Tags Brendan Dassey , murder cases , Steven Avery , Teresa Halbach

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Old 6th July 2020, 02:28 PM   #281
Matthew Best
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
Because he knows what he and Brendan done that night.
That's begging the question, rather.
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Old 6th July 2020, 03:07 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
It's not a great plan. Why do you feel it has to be? And smart people have been known to do "not so bright" things when getting rid of a body:

gruesome-details-in-chad-daybell-and-lori-vallow-investigation
A key part of the prosecution case is disguising outgoing calls and demonstrating premeditation. It begins to seem he was missing jail, because that was a definite outcome if it was a plan.
It does not compute, and he did not in fact do the crime.
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Old 8th July 2020, 08:42 AM   #283
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Steven Avery did indeed rape his underage niece Marie Avery.

479. & 480. Steven Avery Call - 02-04-2006


"I don't think I have anything to worry about with Maire, because she always told me that she would never say nothing."
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Old 8th July 2020, 11:38 AM   #284
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And the relevance of that is.....?
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Old 8th July 2020, 01:34 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
And the relevance of that is.....?
Manitowoc County were already preparing to charge him for raping Marie prior to the murder of Halbach. So that further demolishes any motive for them to frame him for a crime.
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Old 8th July 2020, 02:12 PM   #286
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Or it gives them an extra motive, as they plainly thought he was a bad dude.

Perhaps you should stick to the actual evidence?
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Old 8th July 2020, 04:20 PM   #287
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Ken Petersen's doubts

When questioned by Jerry Buting, one-time Manitowoc sheriff Ken Petersen claimed to have doubts that Gregory Allen was actually the man who raped Penny Beerntsen. link
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Old 8th July 2020, 06:12 PM   #288
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..

Quote:
Dassey stated that Steven Avery told Dassey that he had "******" Teresa Halbach and wanted To keep doing it and stated that he wanted to "**** her so hard." Dassey indicated that Steven Avery encouraged him to sexually assault Teresa Halbach as well.

Steven Avery then escorted Dassey into Steven's bedroom where Dassey observed Teresa Halbach lying face up on Steven Avery's bed. Dassey indicated that Teresa Halbach was nude and was restrained to the bed with handcuffs and leg irons. Dassey stated that Teresa Halbach was begging him to help her, saying things such as tell him to stop and don't do this. Dassey stated that Steven Avery told him to "do her" and "screw her." Dassey stated that he then had sexual intercourse with Teresa Halbach while Steven Avery watched. Dassey stated that he had sexual intercourse with Teresa Halbach for approximately five minutes. Dassey stated that during this time, Teresa Halbach was asking him not to do it, asking him to tell Steven to knock it off, and asking him to uncuff her, and that Halbach was crying.

Dassey stated that he then put his clothes on, and he and Steven then went out into the living room and watched TV. Dassey stated that Steven Avery had closed the bedroom door. Dassey stated that they were in the living room approximately 1O to 15 minutes. Dassey stated that Steven Avery told him, "That's how you do it" and asked Dassey if it felt good. Dassey stated that Avery told him he did a good job and that he was proud of him.
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Old 8th July 2020, 07:07 PM   #289
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That's the best you got? A anonymous description of what someone allegedly said?

I really don't know if either Avery or Dassey is guilty, but nothing you've brought to this thread has been remotely convincing, so if that's really the best there is, my doubts are actually increasing. Presumably if there was something better than this, you'd have brought that instead.
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Old 8th July 2020, 07:42 PM   #290
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minor correction

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
When questioned by Jerry Buting, one-time Manitowoc sheriff Ken Petersen claimed to have doubts that Gregory Allen was actually the man who raped Penny Beerntsen. link
It was Dean Strang, not Jerry Buting, doing the questioning.
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Old 9th July 2020, 06:36 AM   #291
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A selection of moments from Brendan Dassey's recently released recorded jail phone calls.
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Old 9th July 2020, 06:42 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That's the best you got? A anonymous description of what someone allegedly said?

I really don't know if either Avery or Dassey is guilty, but nothing you've brought to this thread has been remotely convincing, so if that's really the best there is, my doubts are actually increasing. Presumably if there was something better than this, you'd have brought that instead.
Alleged? Its all on video tape.
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Old 9th July 2020, 06:52 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
You claimed the fact that remains were burned somewhere else and brought back to Avery's burn pit is exculpatory, so the burden of proof is on you.
The primary burn site is the Manitowoc County Gravel Pit, and bone fragments found there were returned to Teresa's family.

So Avery burned the body and moved some of the bones to the gravel pit, yeah, right.
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Old 9th July 2020, 07:55 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
The primary burn site is the Manitowoc County Gravel Pit, and bone fragments found there were returned to Teresa's family.

So Avery burned the body and moved some of the bones to the gravel pit, yeah, right.
Anything more than your skepticism and "yeah right?"

The gravel pit was close enough to Avery's property that he would have had enough time to do exactly that.

Now, had they found the bones hundreds of miles away that would be more significant, or if you could prove that the remains and her personal effects were planted in the burn pit on Avery's property then you've got something.

Zellner's brief makes a specific reference to case law around "potentially exculpatory" evidence being destroyed by the State, which I happen to agree with her on. The State implied that those bones were Halbach's by releasing them to the family (even though it was never proven the quarry bones were even human), thereby destroying the evidence that she wanted tested, and for good reason. If the bones can be proven to be 1) Human, and 2) NOT Halbach's then you've got potentially exculpatory evidence. If they're proven to be Halbach's then it's not exculpatory as Avery had the time and the opportunity to burn the remains at two different sites.

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...+Avery+Doc.pdf
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Old 9th July 2020, 08:22 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
Anything more than your skepticism and "yeah right?"

The gravel pit was close enough to Avery's property that he would have had enough time to do exactly that.

Now, had they found the bones hundreds of miles away that would be more significant, or if you could prove that the remains and her personal effects were planted in the burn pit on Avery's property then you've got something.

Zellner's brief makes a specific reference to case law around "potentially exculpatory" evidence being destroyed by the State, which I happen to agree with her on. The State implied that those bones were Halbach's by releasing them to the family (even though it was never proven the quarry bones were even human), thereby destroying the evidence that she wanted tested, and for good reason. If the bones can be proven to be 1) Human, and 2) NOT Halbach's then you've got potentially exculpatory evidence. If they're proven to be Halbach's then it's not exculpatory as Avery had the time and the opportunity to burn the remains at two different sites.

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...+Avery+Doc.pdf
There was no fire seen at the quarry. The vast majority of bone fragments plus remnants of Teresa's clothing were found in Avery's burn pit. That is where a large bonfire was seen that night. That is where his next door neigbour said they both burned the body.

Jeans in Avery's burn pit

Its just silly how people are still debating this.
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Old 9th July 2020, 08:45 AM   #296
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More on Zellner's argument about the quarry bones, she is actually arguing that Bobby Dassey is the prime suspect. Her argument centers on proving that the bones were planted in Avery's burn barrel, not that there were two different burn sites.

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...ed+6.25.20.pdf

The State misconstrues the apparent or potential exculpatory nature of the Manitowoc County Gravel Pit bone fragments. Mr. Avery presented the affidavit of Dr. DeHaan that Ms. Halbach did not burn in Mr Avery's burn pit and her bones were planted there. (795:2-3, 10(a)-(d)). Dr. DeHaan opined that Ms. Halbach was burned in a burn barrel, and it is undisputed that larger human bones were found in the Dassey burn barrel (# 7964): a human scapula, portions of a spinal column, metacarpals, and long-bone fragments. (795:4, 13) (633:11) (706:231-33). The Dassey burn barrel bones had cut marks. (756:29) The Gravel Pit bones had cut marks. (772:16-18). By destroying the Gravel Pit bones, the State prevented Dr. Symes, Mr. Avery's expert, from matching the cut marks between the burn barrel and Gravel Pit; thereby establishing that the Dassey burn barrel was the primary burn site. This evidence would establish a direct connection between the Dassey burn barrel, the mutilation of Ms. Halbach and the subsequent planting of bones in Mr. Avery's burn pit. Clearly, the killer performed all of these tasks.

Dr. DeHaan ruled out tires as the accelerant. (795:5, 15). Dr. Eisenberg claimed that she detected the odor of a flammable liquid and not burned rubber from the bones in the Dassey barrel, which the State claimed was the accelerant used by Mr. Avery. (707:6-7). Mr. Avery was deprived of the opportunity to link the Gravel Pit bones accelerant to the Dassey burn barrel bones.

The evidence against Bobby of motive and opportunity is apparent. ( -65, 82-87, 119-20). Additionally, if the Gravel Pit and Dassey burn barrel bones had been linked, the State's star witness would be converted into the primary suspect. Dr. DeHaan opines that the bones in Mr. Avery's burn pit were planted after being burned in a burn barrel. Dr. DeHaan stated: "the discovery of larger fragments outside the margins of [Avery's] burn pit and the finding of human bone fragments with similar degrees of fire damage in numerous other areas . . . is also consistent with the dumping of burn remains into the alleged burn pit, with some rolling or landing outside the pit." (615:95). (795:3-4, 11).

If Mr. Avery establishes in an evidentiary hearing that the primary burn site was the Dassey burn barrel and the bones from that barrel were planted, that evidence would be potentially exculpatory and would undermine confidence in his verdict.
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Old 9th July 2020, 09:05 AM   #297
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Page 20 from the brief

Dr. John DeHaan, a forensic fire expert,
determined that no body was ever burned in Mr. Avery's burn pit, based
upon data he collected from his experiments burning human cadavers
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Old 9th July 2020, 09:13 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Page 20 from the brief

Dr. John DeHaan, a forensic fire expert,
determined that no body was ever burned in Mr. Avery's burn pit, based
upon data he collected from his experiments burning human cadavers
Right, which is part of the argument that Zellner is making that the bones were planted there, allegedly by Bobby Dassey.

Still think the fact that remains were allegedly burned at the Gravel Pit and then brought back to the Avery property is exculpatory? Not even Zellner is making that argument, in fact she wanted to link them to the bones that were found in the Dassey burn barrel in an attempt to strengthen the case against Bobby.

Of course we'll never know because they were destroyed. So I'm not sure why anyone still tries to argue that the killer could not have burned the remains in those two different sites.
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Old 9th July 2020, 09:40 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
There was no fire seen at the quarry. The vast majority of bone fragments plus remnants of Teresa's clothing were found in Avery's burn pit. That is where a large bonfire was seen that night. That is where his next door neigbour said they both burned the body.

Jeans in Avery's burn pit

Its just silly how people are still debating this.
You will have photographs of the burn pit as found to post?
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Old 9th July 2020, 09:53 AM   #300
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Background on John DeHaan

This link and this one give a few of Dr. DeHaan's credentials.
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Old 9th July 2020, 10:24 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Page 20 from the brief

Dr. John DeHaan, a forensic fire expert,
determined that no body was ever burned in Mr. Avery's burn pit, based
upon data he collected from his experiments burning human cadavers
This is a lie. DeHaan said no such thing. Zellner is making bogus claims in her briefs to appease her followers. She done this with Dr Reich also which the state pointed out below. The states reply to this latest brief will contain the same smackdown.

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Old 9th July 2020, 11:01 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
This is a lie. DeHaan said no such thing. Zellner is making bogus claims in her briefs to appease her followers. She done this with Dr Reich also which the state pointed out below. The states reply to this latest brief will contain the same smackdown.
lol

I'm quite sure she is doing this to try and get at least an evidentiary hearing for her client, and at most a new trial. Appeasing her followers gains nothing.
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Old 9th July 2020, 12:40 PM   #303
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"Therefore, it is my opinion that someone transferred Teresa Halbach's
bones to Steven Avery's bum pit."

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...Dr-DeHaan2.pdf
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Old 9th July 2020, 12:56 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
"Therefore, it is my opinion that someone transferred Teresa Halbach's
bones to Steven Avery's bum pit."

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...Dr-DeHaan2.pdf
Oh please! Someone transferred her bones to make him look guilty? It just shows that if you pay your "expert witness" well enough, he'll say whatever you want in testimony.
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Old 9th July 2020, 02:08 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
"Therefore, it is my opinion that someone transferred Teresa Halbach's
bones to Steven Avery's bum pit."

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...Dr-DeHaan2.pdf
Read the whole report though and you should see several other facts that do not help the case for Avery's innocence at all. Or you can cherry pick the parts of it that do match your confirmation bias and ignore everything else.

Here is just one of them:

Quote:
There were at least seven burn barrels on the Avery property when it was taken under law enforcement control on November 5, 2005. Steven Avery had one burn barrel approximately 40 yards north east of his residence in a fallow field that bordered the Avery property to the north. There were four burn barrels situated in a cluster to the south of Barb Janda's residence. There was one burn barrel situated to the west of Delores and Alan Avery's residence. There was one burn barrel situated to the west of Charles Avery' s residence. All seven burn barrels were reportedly regularly used to burn common garbage, e.g., from the kitchen or bathroom. The "burn pit" behind Steven Avery's garage was reportedly routinely used to burn household and automotive discards, trash, and animal remains.
So unless you can prove that Avery didn't have access to any of these other 7 burn barrels, or that he was not there that day, or something else that points to another culprit, then the fact that her remains might have been burned somewhere else and then moved to where they were found doesn't help you and is not exculpatory. Zellner is clearly not an idiot and so she knows this too, which is why her brief does not dispute that the remains were not burned where the State theorized they were in the trial. She concedes as undisputed that the remains were burned in the Dassey burn barrel so she can then make an argument that would be exculpatory: It was Bobby Dassey that actually did it and moved the bones there in order to frame Avery.

DeHaan then goes on to give his expert opinion that leads to his statement that Teresa Halbach's remains were not burned in the location that the State theorizes that they were. I don't have the expertise to challenge him on that point, but this is not a trial in a court of law and I'm not on the jury. The trial has already happened, so at this point it is not enough to simply state that these facts don't match the States theory, you have to show how this new evidence reveals something exculpatory or undeniable misconduct by the State of Wisconsin. She actually argues for both in her brief, but obviously it remains to be seen if she will be successful or not.

As I've said before, I would be fine with Avery getting a new trial. I would not be surprised however that he's again found guilty unless something new is revealed and presented at trial that changes the facts of the case in some sort of major way. So far, nothing like that has been presented.
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Old 9th July 2020, 02:25 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
Read the whole report though and you should see several other facts that do not help the case for Avery's innocence at all. Or you can cherry pick the parts of it that do match your confirmation bias and ignore everything else.

Here is just one of them:



So unless you can prove that Avery didn't have access to any of these other 7 burn barrels, or that he was not there that day, or something else that points to another culprit, then the fact that her remains might have been burned somewhere else and then moved to where they were found doesn't help you and is not exculpatory. Zellner is clearly not an idiot and so she knows this too, which is why her brief does not dispute that the remains were not burned where the State theorized they were in the trial. She concedes as undisputed that the remains were burned in the Dassey burn barrel so she can then make an argument that would be exculpatory: It was Bobby Dassey that actually did it and moved the bones there in order to frame Avery.

DeHaan then goes on to give his expert opinion that leads to his statement that Teresa Halbach's remains were not burned in the location that the State theorizes that they were. I don't have the expertise to challenge him on that point, but this is not a trial in a court of law and I'm not on the jury. The trial has already happened, so at this point it is not enough to simply state that these facts don't match the States theory, you have to show how this new evidence reveals something exculpatory or undeniable misconduct by the State of Wisconsin. She actually argues for both in her brief, but obviously it remains to be seen if she will be successful or not.

As I've said before, I would be fine with Avery getting a new trial. I would not be surprised however that he's again found guilty unless something new is revealed and presented at trial that changes the facts of the case in some sort of major way. So far, nothing like that has been presented.
The idea of this forum is not to change the world but to explain the world.

I am interested in the actions ascribed to Avery, which include putting her in shackles and raping her, then moving her to the garage and shooting her, then putting her body in the car and driving from the property, then making a 15 minute phone call from the property to his girl friend in jail, in which he is exceedingly calm, then transferring the body from the car to the burn pit and having his nephew help him burn her. Then he must move the car several days later to its found location. During all this time he is entitled to expect someone who cares about Teresa Halbach to look for her, and that he will need to comfortably explain the forensic evidence as nothing to do with his actions.

It does not compute.

Other courses of action by different parties are also puzzling but several orders of magnitude less so.
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Old 9th July 2020, 02:42 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The idea of this forum is not to change the world but to explain the world.

I am interested in the actions ascribed to Avery, which include putting her in shackles and raping her, then moving her to the garage and shooting her, then putting her body in the car and driving from the property, then making a 15 minute phone call from the property to his girl friend in jail, in which he is exceedingly calm, then transferring the body from the car to the burn pit and having his nephew help him burn her. Then he must move the car several days later to its found location. During all this time he is entitled to expect someone who cares about Teresa Halbach to look for her, and that he will need to comfortably explain the forensic evidence as nothing to do with his actions.

It does not compute.

Other courses of action by different parties are also puzzling but several orders of magnitude less so.
So then explain this world that you have created, because some of the above matches the known facts and some of it doesn't.

For the sake of this exercise I'll go ahead and assume your description of the events is true. Tell me why it doesn't compute and your narrative proves he did not commit the crimes that he was convicted of.
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Old 9th July 2020, 03:37 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Oh please! Someone transferred her bones to make him look guilty? It just shows that if you pay your "expert witness" well enough, he'll say whatever you want in testimony.
Oh please, it's a little more than that.
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Old 9th July 2020, 07:27 PM   #309
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Sauce for the goose

Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Oh please! Someone transferred her bones to make him look guilty? It just shows that if you pay your "expert witness" well enough, he'll say whatever you want in testimony.
"Previously, the three crime laboratories made up the Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory Bureau within the Division of Law Enforcement Services (DLES) at DOJ." link There was a reorganization in 2019. The prosecution's forensic expert witnesses were paid by the State of Wisconsin and before 2019 were part of the Division of Law Enforcement Services.

In a previous comment I provided two links to DeHaan's credentials.
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Old 10th July 2020, 12:43 AM   #310
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Seriously this is stupid.
  • Netflix has admitted in Colborns lawsuit that no reasonable viewer should have believed MAM to be accurate.
  • The victim was last seen alive approaching Avery's trailer.
  • Avery's number was the last number answered on the victims phone.
  • The victims phone and camera was found in Avery's burn barrel.
  • The victims bones and clothing were found in Avery's burn pit.
  • Avery had fires in both his burn pit and burn barrel that evening.
  • Blood from the cut on Avery's finger is inside the victims car.
  • Avery's DNA is on the hood latch of the victims car.
  • The victims car keys was found hidden in Avery's bedside cabinet.
  • A bullet with the victims DNA on it was fired from the rife hanging over Avery's bed.
  • His nextdoor neighbour admitted they both raped and killed her.

How anyone can still think Avery is innocent is rather mind boggling.
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Old 10th July 2020, 01:17 AM   #311
Samson
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
Seriously this is stupid.
  • Netflix has admitted in Colborns lawsuit that no reasonable viewer should have believed MAM to be accurate.
  • The victim was last seen alive approaching Avery's trailer.
  • Avery's number was the last number answered on the victims phone.
  • The victims phone and camera was found in Avery's burn barrel.
  • The victims bones and clothing were found in Avery's burn pit.
  • Avery had fires in both his burn pit and burn barrel that evening.
  • Blood from the cut on Avery's finger is inside the victims car.
  • Avery's DNA is on the hood latch of the victims car.
  • The victims car keys was found hidden in Avery's bedside cabinet.
  • A bullet with the victims DNA on it was fired from the rife hanging over Avery's bed.
  • His nextdoor neighbour admitted they both raped and killed her.

How anyone can still think Avery is innocent is rather mind boggling.
You see a beautiful garden.
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Old 11th July 2020, 08:47 AM   #312
Essexman
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
You see a beautiful garden.
What?
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Old 11th July 2020, 09:48 AM   #313
wasapi
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
You see a beautiful garden.

WTH are you talking about?
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Old 11th July 2020, 11:24 AM   #314
Samson
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
What?
Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
WTH are you talking about?
noble cause corruption includes "planting or fabricating evidence, lying or the fabrication and manipulation of facts on reports or through testimony in court, and generally abusing police authority to make a charge stick.

I will flatter these crooks by imagining them noble,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_cause_corruption
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Old 11th July 2020, 02:58 PM   #315
Lerxst
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
noble cause corruption includes "planting or fabricating evidence, lying or the fabrication and manipulation of facts on reports or through testimony in court, and generally abusing police authority to make a charge stick.

I will flatter these crooks by imagining them noble,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_cause_corruption
Irrelevant until you produce some evidence that this actually happened.
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Old 11th July 2020, 03:35 PM   #316
rockinkt
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Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
Irrelevant until you produce some evidence that this actually happened.
Evidence means absolutely nothing on a board that only pretends to have any interest in scepticism.
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Old 12th July 2020, 07:21 AM   #317
Chris_Halkides
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not sure what you mean

Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
Irrelevant until you produce some evidence that this actually happened.
What would constitute evidence in your estimation?
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Old 12th July 2020, 09:05 AM   #318
Lerxst
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
What would constitute evidence in your estimation?
A witness, an admittance by the guilty party, a set of circumstances that would rule out any other plausible scenario. A demonstration of how it could be done along with showing the alleged party would have had the means and the opportunity. In a case like this with so much evidence that is in dispute or was allegedly planted you would also have to show that one person was able to plant all of that evidence, or you would have to show a clear conspiracy.

The problem is what we have in this case amounts to "the bones weren't burned in his burn pit so they must have been planted", or "that can't be Avery's DNA so someone must have planted it there", or "he wouldn't have been stupid enough to leave her car right there in nearly plain sight so someone must have planted it there to frame him".
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Old 12th July 2020, 09:34 AM   #319
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
A witness, an admittance by the guilty party, a set of circumstances that would rule out any other plausible scenario. A demonstration of how it could be done along with showing the alleged party would have had the means and the opportunity. In a case like this with so much evidence that is in dispute or was allegedly planted you would also have to show that one person was able to plant all of that evidence, or you would have to show a clear conspiracy.

The problem is what we have in this case amounts to "the bones weren't burned in his burn pit so they must have been planted", or "that can't be Avery's DNA so someone must have planted it there", or "he wouldn't have been stupid enough to leave her car right there in nearly plain sight so someone must have planted it there to frame him".
So you reject circumstantial evidence as a means of determining fact?
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Old 12th July 2020, 10:29 AM   #320
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Everyone in Wisconsin who followed events from 2005 to 2007 knew he was guilty and the evidence was overwhelming. Steven Avery had zero supporters before this show aired.

If MaM has proved anything. Its proved that modern documentary makers and Netflix have zero ethics and put profit and entertainment before facts.

Those who continue to insist Avery didn't murder Halbach are either too proud to admit they got duped by TV show full of cheap editing tricks or cannot bare the thought of defending a murdering incestial rapist on their conscience.
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