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Tags Kyle Rittenhouse , murder cases

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Old 14th September 2020, 07:57 AM   #161
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Is is so hard to imagine that the boy had exactly this in mind? Go to another town with a ******* assault rifle, wait until he gets attacked in the riots then pull the trigger.

But no, the claims are now: "Well, why could it not have been self defense, even though nothing of this would have happened if he stayed at home."
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:03 AM   #162
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Everybody seems to be looking hard at the law. Guess what? When it goes back to the jury room, the law don't matter a hill of beans. The idea that they are going to find 12 people to convict Rittenhouse on the most serious charges is a pipe dream.
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:07 AM   #163
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In a just world, he’s be charged as a juvenile and spend the next several years in rehabilitation.
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:08 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It is not a "disproportionate response per statute". Nothing in the statute says that you can't shoot somebody who is currently unarmed.
You're denying that there is a proportionate response qualifier? There is not much more severe response than killing with five rounds of high powered rifle fire. Considering that as far as we know, Rosenbaum had not so much as threatened to give him a nooggie. People chase each other all the time, that's hardly a capital offense. And the reporter witnessed that Rosenbaum didn't grab at the gun till Kyle had already fired.
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:11 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Everybody seems to be looking hard at the law. Guess what? When it goes back to the jury room, the law don't matter a hill of beans. The idea that they are going to find 12 people to convict Rittenhouse on the most serious charges is a pipe dream.
I dunno. Americans have been executed on less compelling evidence.
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:17 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're denying that there is a proportionate response qualifier?
No, I am denying that it demands the opponent be armed.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There is not much more severe response than killing with five rounds of high powered rifle fire.
Sure, but if you are in fear of death or serious injury then using lethal force can be covered in the self defence statute we have been discussing.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Considering that as far as we know, Rosenbaum had not so much as threatened to give him a nooggie.
Indeed... we don't know that. Even so, explicitly telling the person claiming self defence that you intend to injure/kill them isn't required.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
People chase each other all the time, that's hardly a capital offense.
If you chase somebody in a way that leads them to reasonably believe you are going to kill, or severely injure them, then they are entitled to defend themselves, potentially with lethal force. "Capital offense" has nothing to do with it, since it isn't a question of the culpability of the person who got shot. The violent class-3 sex offending arsonist could have been intending to hand him some religious pamphlets for all it matters.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And the reporter witnessed that Rosenbaum didn't grab at the gun till Kyle had already fired.
That is not what the witness said. You may be reading that into what the witness said, but none the less it isn't actually what the witness said.

Last edited by shuttlt; 14th September 2020 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:17 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
In a just world, he’s be charged as a juvenile and spend the next several years in rehabilitation.
In a just world, he would (in no particular order):

-not have access as a minor to high powered modified military weapons
- not think it was a good idea to arm up and waltz into a riot
- value human life a bit more
- consider foreseeable consequences and evaluate their practicality

He may have done the latter three but screwed the proverbial pooch in doing so
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:25 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
No, I am denying that it demands the opponent be armed.


Sure, but if you are in fear of death or serious injury then using lethal force can be covered in the self defence statute we have been discussing.


Indeed... we don't know that. Even so, explicitly telling the person claiming self defence that you intend to injure/kill them isn't required.


If you chase somebody in a way that leads them to reasonably believe you are going to kill, or severely injure them, then they are entitled to defend themselves, potentially with lethal force. "Capital offense" has nothing to do with it, since it isn't a question of the culpability of the person who got shot.


That is not what the witness said. You may be reading that into what the witness said, but none the less it isn't actually what the witness said.
Your argument seems to rely entirely on Rittenhouse's feeling that he was in imminent grave danger that could only be mitigated with lethal force. I see no reason to assume that, and I see a lot of reasons to doubt his honesty (claiming to be contracted as an underage guard/militia/Avenger, mysteriously appearing weapons, defying police orders to join a riot in a neighboring state, etc). I suppose we'll see how it unfolds.
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:26 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I dunno. Americans have been executed on less compelling evidence.
Sure.

We don't even know what the evidence is. Or how careful the state will be with jury selection or where the pool will be drawn from.

Thinking right now that no jury would convict this guy is beyond premature. I'm guessing most citizens of Kenosha would not be real pleased with out of state people bringing rifles in order to shoot people, and there is no guarantee that the defense will (1) slip a ringer or two in there and (2) that ringer will hold fast during a lengthy jury deliberation.

Plus (3) the unsaid worry that if they acquit all hell will break loose.
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:27 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Is is so hard to imagine that the boy had exactly this in mind? Go to another town with a ******* assault rifle, wait until he gets attacked in the riots then pull the trigger.
What undermines that a little is that the only people he shot were shot in a way that gives him a self defence argument. Is the idea that he put out the fire in the dumpster in order to then 20 minutes later have one of the arsonists spot him, chase him and try to get the gun with enough witnesses to back up the self defence claim? Is he Moriarty from Sherlock?

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Old 14th September 2020, 08:30 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
What undermines that a little is that the only people he shot were shot in a way that gives him a self defence argument. Is the idea that he put out the fire in the dumpster in order to then 20 minutes later have one of the crowd spot him, chase him and try to get the gun with enough witnesses to back up the self defence claim? Is he Moriarty from Sherlock?
I have a feeling that, whenever this trial finally rolls around, we're going to hear from a lot of witnesses that encountered Kyle before the shootings. I wonder how they'll describe his attitude that night. The journalist's description of Kyle before the shooting wasn't very flattering.

It's going to be a long wait I fear. Murder trials aren't exactly known for their speediness. Both defense and prosecution tend to be very deliberate and take their time.
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:34 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
What undermines that a little is that the only people he shot were shot in a way that gives him a self defence argument. Is the idea that he put out the fire in the dumpster in order to then 20 minutes later have one of the arsonists spot him, chase him and try to get the gun with enough witnesses to back up the self defence claim? Is he Moriarty from Sherlock?
LOL, poor Kyle, all he wanted was to grab an AR 15, go into a town where people are rioting and protect the poor Americans getting attacked by the nasty Antifa/BLM goons.

From your view, what was the reason for a 17 year old boy to grab an assault rifle and travel to a riot? (While not being called to, forced to or invited to)

ETA: Regarding Moriarty: Pretty strange that you need to assume superhuman intelligence to pull this childish stunt.

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Old 14th September 2020, 08:38 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
What undermines that a little is that the only people he shot were shot in a way that gives him a self defence argument. Is the idea that he put out the fire in the dumpster in order to then 20 minutes later have one of the arsonists spot him, chase him and try to get the gun with enough witnesses to back up the self defence claim? Is he Moriarty from Sherlock?
Ya, pretty sure he wasn't setting it up per se. But he slung that rifle over his shoulder to go where he was expressly not allowed to go, or even carry it as a minor. All of which he surely knew. But he looked at his What Would Captain America Do bracelet and racked em up. Cap shot bad guys, right?
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:42 AM   #174
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Haven't seen the usual facebook meme dump that often comes along with these "self-defense" terrorists. Perhaps it's a bit early.

For example, James Alex Fields posted all kinds of memes on various social media both about his love of Hitler and memes about hitting protesters with cars. Then he "self-defensed" his car into a crowd of antifascist protesters in Charlottesville.

Maybe we should have a betting pool. Whoever calls the date/time of the announcement that Kyle was peddling "Roof Koreans" or other such pro-murder memes gets an internet cookie. Wonder if he was ****-posting on discord, or had graduated to terrorgram like a proper reactionary.

https://wtop.com/virginia/2018/11/ju...-murder-trial/
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:45 AM   #175
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I found this video a while ago. Poor Kyle sure has a very good reason to hit people, probably self defense.
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:48 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
I found this video a while ago. Poor Kyle sure has a very good reason to hit people, probably self defense.
I'm absolutely shocked a wannabe cop would show terrible de-escalation skills and throw punches a girl smaller than him while her back was turned.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:18 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ya, pretty sure he wasn't setting it up per se. But he slung that rifle over his shoulder to go where he was expressly not allowed to go, or even carry it as a minor. All of which he surely knew. But he looked at his What Would Captain America Do bracelet and racked em up. Cap shot bad guys, right?
We don't know he wasn't allowed to carry it as a minor. I'm not sure the "good guy" and "bad guy" thing matters too much. If he had reasonable rear for his life, then self defence is on the cards. If Rosenbaum had been running at me, attempting to grab the gun and all the rest... under those circumstances, I would have been in fear for my life.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:23 AM   #178
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He pre-frontal cortex will be done developing in 6 or 7 years; I suspect that he'll make better decisions at that point. Until then, maybe he shouldn't be handling an assault rifle.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:26 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
We don't know he wasn't allowed to carry it as a minor. I'm not sure the "good guy" and "bad guy" thing matters too much. If he had reasonable rear for his life, then self defence is on the cards. If Rosenbaum had been running at me, attempting to grab the gun and all the rest... under those circumstances, I would have been in fear for my life.
Was it reasonable for a 17 year old to decide to play vigilante superhero with an assault rifle? It's almost like you want to ignore the fact that it was his decision alone.

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Old 14th September 2020, 09:41 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
We don't know he wasn't allowed to carry it as a minor.
We do know. Wisconsin law, posted earlier, prohibits carrying of guns by those under 18. There is a hunting exception. Unless you are calling what he did hunting?

Quote:
I'm not sure the "good guy" and "bad guy" thing matters too much. If he had reasonable rear for his life, then self defence is on the cards. If Rosenbaum had been running at me, attempting to grab the gun and all the rest... under those circumstances, I would have been in fear for my life.
Then I believe in most states you would be found to be unreasonably afraid, and not privileged to claim self defense.

Seriously, how do you guys make it in a bar on a Saturday night or even a raucous office party without killing people? Dick-swinging is not imminent death.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:47 AM   #181
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I'll be interested to see if the prosecution contents that anyone out after curfew and willfully entered a riot having no other business there was behaving unlawfully by definition and their actions should all be interpreted as occuring while commiting crimes and/or provocation.
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Old 14th September 2020, 10:27 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
I found this video a while ago. Poor Kyle sure has a very good reason to hit people, probably self defense.
You realize you're making the "no angel" argument?
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Old 14th September 2020, 12:46 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
You realize you're making the "no angel" argument?
Only applicable to black people then?

That said, I agree. Doesn't matter if little Kylie was a choir-boy. He's still a double-murderer.
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Old 14th September 2020, 01:31 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'll be interested to see if the prosecution contents that anyone out after curfew and willfully entered a riot having no other business there was behaving unlawfully by definition and their actions should all be interpreted as occuring while commiting crimes and/or provocation.
Why would they? Is provocation a defence for murder?
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Old 14th September 2020, 01:34 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
We do know. Wisconsin law, posted earlier, prohibits carrying of guns by those under 18. There is a hunting exception. Unless you are calling what he did hunting?
It doesn't say you have to be hunting.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Then I believe in most states you would be found to be unreasonably afraid, and not privileged to claim self defense.

Seriously, how do you guys make it in a bar on a Saturday night or even a raucous office party without killing people? Dick-swinging is not imminent death.
Typically I don't have to deal with people who I have just prevented burning down a petrol station, who have then vented their rage at me and my friends, then chased me followed by other rioters and arsonists while guns are fired behind me and they attempt to grab my gun. You must frequent rougher bars than I do.

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Old 22nd September 2020, 09:14 PM   #186
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So it was his gun, then?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...id=mailsignout
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Old 25th September 2020, 07:42 PM   #187
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UPDATE: The defendant is contesting extradition from Illinois to Wisconsin.
Which means, he stays right where he is for a while longer (a new hearing on this technical matter is scheduled now for Oct. 9).
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Old 25th September 2020, 07:53 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Is is so hard to imagine that the boy had exactly this in mind? Go to another town with a ******* assault rifle, wait until he gets attacked in the riots then pull the trigger.

But no, the claims are now: "Well, why could it not have been self defense, even though nothing of this would have happened if he stayed at home."
I am not a mind-reader, but from my simple understanding of the US Constitution Bill Of Rights, all the "security" individuals carrying weapons that night were all part of a well-organized citizen militia.. being necessary for the security of a free State (i.e. Nation)

There is one very plain fact in all of this.
Rioting that night in Kenosha was stopped cold by a militia member bearing Arms.

My goodness, I can only imagine the end result of this episode if he was holding a musket!
As the saying goes -- Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Old 25th September 2020, 08:05 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
UPDATE: The defendant is contesting extradition from Illinois to Wisconsin.
Which means, he stays right where he is for a while longer (a new hearing on this technical matter is scheduled now for Oct. 9).
That is another thing I find ridiculous about US Law, the fact that a suspect even has to be extradited in the first place. It would be like Christchurch police having to apply to extradite a prisoner to Auckland. Ludicrous.
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Old 25th September 2020, 08:09 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
UPDATE: The defendant is contesting extradition from Illinois to Wisconsin.
Which means, he stays right where he is for a while longer (a new hearing on this technical matter is scheduled now for Oct. 9).
Makes for better TV, which is what his TV lawyer wants.
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Old 28th September 2020, 07:05 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
UPDATE: The defendant is contesting extradition from Illinois to Wisconsin.
Which means, he stays right where he is for a while longer (a new hearing on this technical matter is scheduled now for Oct. 9).
Is the jail in Illinois nicer or something? Dude's in the clink until at least his trial. Seems like a real waste of time, but whatever. He's charged with two homicides, he's gonna get extradited sooner or later.
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Old 28th September 2020, 07:21 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That is another thing I find ridiculous about US Law, the fact that a suspect even has to be extradited in the first place. It would be like Christchurch police having to apply to extradite a prisoner to Auckland. Ludicrous.
Often worse than that. We have about one hearing a week where someone gets caught on our side of the river for missing a traffic court appearance in a town we can see.

Usually the person spends 3-5 days in jail through this process.

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Old 28th September 2020, 07:37 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
You realize you're making the "no angel" argument?
Don't know what the "no angel" argument is supposed to be.

My argument is: "Poor Kyle was a piece of **** way before he murdered 2 people"
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Old 28th September 2020, 08:01 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is the jail in Illinois nicer or something? Dude's in the clink until at least his trial. Seems like a real waste of time, but whatever. He's charged with two homicides, he's gonna get extradited sooner or later.
It might be some sort of ploy, but yeah. Looks like vamping. The accounts I've seen make it sound like there are some novel legal theories about to be unleashed. Which is usually a source of unintentional comedy.


The question is whether his Illinois counsel will screw this up in a way that hurts his case.
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Old 30th September 2020, 11:53 AM   #195
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Lin Wood is threatening to sue the Biden campaign for defamation for calling Rittenhouse a white supremacist.

Originally Posted by Popehat
Galaxy brain take: my client is charged with murder. Right now he’s wisely taking the Fifth. But I’m going to file a defamation suit on his behalf to expose him to wide-ranging civil discovery about the motives and circumstances of the alleged crime.
https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1311358307878141952

If I were being charged with murder and facing a lifetime of prison, I wouldn't be pleased if my lawyers were using the case to chase political clout.
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Old 30th September 2020, 01:32 PM   #196
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Lin Wood is threatening to sue the Biden campaign for defamation for calling Rittenhouse a white supremacist.



https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1311358307878141952

If I were being charged with murder and facing a lifetime of prison, I wouldn't be pleased if my lawyers were using the case to chase political clout.
Is Lin Wood having another "Bad Lin Wood" day?
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Old 1st October 2020, 05:35 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post

If I were being charged with murder and facing a lifetime of prison, I wouldn't be pleased if my lawyers were using the case to chase political clout.
On a certain level the threat makes sense.

If the lawyer came out and simply stated "Rittenhouse is not a white supremacist and shame on Joe Biden" he'd be largely just ignored. By threatening this absurd lawsuit he gets that information out in more effective manner because people will focus on how stupid a suit would be and amplify his statement when they point that out.

Very unethical, but an effective rhetorical gambit.
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Old 1st October 2020, 11:06 AM   #198
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At least to the department of homeland security he is a hero and exactly the kind of thing we need more of.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbre.../#345f41126eeb
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Old 1st October 2020, 11:15 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
At least to the department of homeland security he is a hero and exactly the kind of thing we need more of.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbre.../#345f41126eeb
Obstruction of Justice.
People should go to jail for this, and not just Kyle.
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Old 1st October 2020, 02:54 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Obstruction of Justice.
People should go to jail for this, and not just Kyle.
Yeah, I mean how dare they say things like this:

Quote:
The documents also order officials to stress Rittenhouse is “innocent until proven guilty” and “deserves a fair trial based on all the facts, not just the ones that support a certain narrative,” when they are asked by a reporter to comment on the shootings.

“This is why we try the accused in the court of law, not the star chamber of public opinion," the talking points say.
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