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Tags Kyle Rittenhouse , murder cases

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Old 12th October 2020, 07:53 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
He is seen on video acting in self-defense, so what other evidence is there to prove otherwise? Just because two people are dead (and a third drastically injured) doesn't automatically raise these reactions on the part of Kyle Rittenhouse to the level of murder 1 (or attempted).
If only there were some kind of civil institution available to scrutinise the evidence and determine whether these reactions qualify as a crime or not, rather than the whole thing being left to politicians to decide.

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Old 12th October 2020, 08:05 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Very slim chances that someone like Kyle doesn't kill people like this without consuming quite a bit of pro-murder propaganda on social media.
Disagree. I think standing with weapons against mob with torches is appropriate, and always was. Trump may share this opinion, or he just uses the situation to gain support. Either way, I doubt anyone would change his mind whether it's ok to burn buildings or not based on what Trump says.
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Old 12th October 2020, 10:35 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Yes, political. One of the current Presidential candidates is using this specific incident to generate political points.

He is seen on video acting in self-defense, so what other evidence is there to prove otherwise? Just because two people are dead (and a third drastically injured) doesn't automatically raise these reactions on the part of Kyle Rittenhouse to the level of murder 1 (or attempted).

As for the extradition itself, I am not convinced the Wisconsin paperwork is in order.
The Illinois court was presented a 16-page petition for a writ of habeas corpus, describing the case in court as "a very unique, extraordinary situation" and noting that there was "no reason to rush."
Absolutely not. He is seen on video deliberately killing another man. Whether he has the privilege of claiming self defense remains to be seen.

For instance, he does not have the privilege of claiming self defense if he provoked the attack, legally or illegally. So even if it was legal for him to transport his weapon to another State...er, I mean find an identical weapon to his own mysteriously appear in his hands in another State...and it was legal for a minor to insert himself into a riot, violating a police order, and if it was legal to declare himself a vigilante and assume law enforcement powers on the aforementioned adjoining State, the Court may still find that waving a rifle around during a riot was legally provoking the altercation, and Captain Kyle cannot claim self defense.
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Old 12th October 2020, 11:05 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Yes, political. One of the current Presidential candidates is using this specific incident to generate political points.

He is seen on video acting in self-defense, so what other evidence is there to prove otherwise? Just because two people are dead (and a third drastically injured) doesn't automatically raise these reactions on the part of Kyle Rittenhouse to the level of murder 1 (or attempted).

As for the extradition itself, I am not convinced the Wisconsin paperwork is in order.
The Illinois court was presented a 16-page petition for a writ of habeas corpus, describing the case in court as "a very unique, extraordinary situation" and noting that there was "no reason to rush."
That's you're biased conclusion, so you would be excluded from the jury pool. He is seen killing a man, and it has yet be determined if he acted in self defense. Dave Rogers has hinted that there may be a way to determine if this is true.
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Old 12th October 2020, 11:13 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Absolutely not. He is seen on video deliberately killing another man. Whether he has the privilege of claiming self defense remains to be seen.

For instance, he does not have the privilege of claiming self defense if he provoked the attack, legally or illegally. So even if it was legal for him to transport his weapon to another State...er, I mean find an identical weapon to his own mysteriously appear in his hands in another State...and it was legal for a minor to insert himself into a riot, violating a police order, and if it was legal to declare himself a vigilante and assume law enforcement powers on the aforementioned adjoining State, the Court may still find that waving a rifle around during a riot was legally provoking the altercation, and Captain Kyle cannot claim self defense.
That is not the case. Even if you provoke the attack, you can still claim self defence if you attempt to retreat.
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Old 12th October 2020, 11:21 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
That is not the case. Even if you provoke the attack, you can still claim self defence if you attempt to retreat.
It remains to be seen whether Rosenbaum is considered to be attacking an innocent Avenger, or was attempting to disarm a weapon-brandishing criminal. Either way, it is not the open and shut case of self defense being claimed. There's a lot of gray to suss out.
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Old 12th October 2020, 11:46 AM   #287
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This (From Steven Colbert) reminded me of this thread and gave me a chuckle.

Quote:
Second, I just want to remind everybody in a militia - YOU'RE NOT IN A MILITIA!! You're a bunch of buddies getting together to play with guns. If I play a game of catch in the front yard it doesn't mean I've been signed to the Yankees.


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


tl;dr

https://youtu.be/3n-cwzqmDvo?t=715
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Old 12th October 2020, 11:54 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
That is not the case. Even if you provoke the attack, you can still claim self defence if you attempt to retreat.
This is not a given, it depends on the laws in that state.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/crimina...-overview.html

"Some states also consider instances where the person claiming self-defense provoked the attack as imperfect self-defense. For example, if a person creates a conflict that becomes violent then unintentionally kills the other party while defending himself, a claim of self-defense might reduce the charges or punishment, but would not excuse the killing entirely."
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Old 12th October 2020, 11:59 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This is not a given, it depends on the laws in that state.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/crimina...-overview.html

"Some states also consider instances where the person claiming self-defense provoked the attack as imperfect self-defense. For example, if a person creates a conflict that becomes violent then unintentionally kills the other party while defending himself, a claim of self-defense might reduce the charges or punishment, but would not excuse the killing entirely."
I was going by the law in Wisconsin.

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tes/939/iii/48
Quote:
(2) Provocation affects the privilege of self-defense as follows:
939.48(2)(a)(a) A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. In such a case, the person engaging in the unlawful conduct is privileged to act in self-defense, but the person is not privileged to resort to the use of force intended or likely to cause death to the person's assailant unless the person reasonably believes he or she has exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from or otherwise avoid death or great bodily harm at the hands of his or her assailant.
(b) The privilege lost by provocation may be regained if the actor in good faith withdraws from the fight and gives adequate notice thereof to his or her assailant.

Last edited by shuttlt; 12th October 2020 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 12th October 2020, 12:18 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I was going by the law in Wisconsin.

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tes/939/iii/48
Two issues:

Had Kyle exhausted every means, and did he have reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm? Both are disputable. For instance, he could have tried 'not firing the rifle" as a means of forestalling use of deadly force. The unarmed Rosenbaum had not threatened him or even thumbed his nose at Kyle. What he did do was appear to disarm an armed provocateur. Yes, still debatable.

Did he give notice required in condition b? Maybe Rosenbaum couldn't hear it over the gunfire Kyle was pumping out
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Old 12th October 2020, 12:28 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Yes, political. One of the current Presidential candidates is using this specific incident to generate political points...
Lin Wood?

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Lin Wood is threatening to sue the Biden campaign for defamation for calling Rittenhouse a white supremacist.



https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1311358307878141952

If I were being charged with murder and facing a lifetime of prison, I wouldn't be pleased if my lawyers were using the case to chase political clout.
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Old 13th October 2020, 04:14 PM   #292
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Meanwhile, in Illinois, the Lake County State’s Attorney’s Office said there is no evidence the rifle was ever physically possessed by Kyle Rittenhouse in Illinois.

An investigation revealed the gun used in the Kenosha shooting was purchased, stored and used in Wisconsin.

So, there's that item off the list.
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Old 13th October 2020, 04:44 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Meanwhile, in Illinois, the Lake County State’s Attorney’s Office said there is no evidence the rifle was ever physically possessed by Kyle Rittenhouse in Illinois.

An investigation revealed the gun used in the Kenosha shooting was purchased, stored and used in Wisconsin.

So, there's that item off the list.
Leads to the obvious question of who owned it. Providing a dangerous weapon to a minor is a crime in Wisconsin.
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Old 13th October 2020, 07:13 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Meanwhile, in Illinois, the Lake County State’s Attorney’s Office said there is no evidence the rifle was ever physically possessed by Kyle Rittenhouse in Illinois.

An investigation revealed the gun used in the Kenosha shooting was purchased, stored and used in Wisconsin.

So, there's that item off the list.
Off the list? That adds to the list. Now we have a mysterious co-conspirator arming out-of-state children in a riot.

Oh this is much worse.

But webfusion: are any laws at all in effect under The Purge State you have claimed? Does availability of 911 service still determine whether the people of Wisconsin (and their neighboring child mercenaries) live under the Rule of Law?
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Old 13th October 2020, 07:22 PM   #295
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Having no criminal charges in Illinois should streamline extradition. No good reason not to store Kyle in Wisconsin until his murder trial there.
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Old 13th October 2020, 08:46 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Leads to the obvious question of who owned it. Providing a dangerous weapon to a minor is a crime in Wisconsin.
The minimum age for possession or control of a firearm is age 12 in Wisconsin.

Rittenhouse didn’t commit first-degree intentional homicide; he didn’t even commit murder at all. He was merely defending himself against a pack of thugs hellbent on beating him, possibly to death.

All of the people shot could easily have avoided being shot, simply by not pursuing the retreating rifleman.

In the law of self-defense, there is a long-standing concept of disparity of force. Facing multiple attackers who can knock you down and stomp you to death has long been recognized as a disparity of force situation, where the use of a weapon is necessary to preserve your life and/or bodily integrity.

Kyle Rittenhouse knew exactly how to use that AR15, and did so, fortunately for him, during this battle for his own life. Impressive, under the circumstances. He handled that weapon perfectly. He should be released and left alone. It was all justifiable self defense. He's just being used as a tool to appease certain people…
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Old 13th October 2020, 09:50 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
... He's just being used as a tool to appease certain people…
He IS a tool.
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Old 14th October 2020, 03:38 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The minimum age for possession or control of a firearm is age 12 in Wisconsin.

Rittenhouse didn’t commit first-degree intentional homicide; he didn’t even commit murder at all. He was merely defending himself against a pack of thugs hellbent on beating him, possibly to death.

All of the people shot could easily have avoided being shot, simply by not pursuing the retreating rifleman.

In the law of self-defense, there is a long-standing concept of disparity of force. Facing multiple attackers who can knock you down and stomp you to death has long been recognized as a disparity of force situation, where the use of a weapon is necessary to preserve your life and/or bodily integrity.

Kyle Rittenhouse knew exactly how to use that AR15, and did so, fortunately for him, during this battle for his own life. Impressive, under the circumstances. He handled that weapon perfectly. He should be released and left alone. It was all justifiable self defense. He's just being used as a tool to appease certain people…
Glad we don't need a criminal justice system in this country, we can just use your analysis as the proper interpretation of the law.
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Old 14th October 2020, 07:19 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The minimum age for possession or control of a firearm is age 12 in Wisconsin.

Rittenhouse didn’t commit first-degree intentional homicide; he didn’t even commit murder at all. He was merely defending himself against a pack of thugs hellbent on beating him, possibly to death.

All of the people shot could easily have avoided being shot, simply by not pursuing the retreating rifleman.

In the law of self-defense, there is a long-standing concept of disparity of force. Facing multiple attackers who can knock you down and stomp you to death has long been recognized as a disparity of force situation, where the use of a weapon is necessary to preserve your life and/or bodily integrity.

Kyle Rittenhouse knew exactly how to use that AR15, and did so, fortunately for him, during this battle for his own life. Impressive, under the circumstances. He handled that weapon perfectly. He should be released and left alone. It was all justifiable self defense. He's just being used as a tool to appease certain people…
Well you've just defended every spree killer ever. They were all outnumbered, therefore they were just using appropriate force.
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Old 14th October 2020, 10:03 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well you've just defended every spree killer ever. They were all outnumbered, therefore they were just using appropriate force.
I think that disparity of force would be closer to a necessary rather than a sufficient condition.
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Old 14th October 2020, 02:43 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well you've just defended every spree killer ever. They were all outnumbered, therefore they were just using appropriate force.
This is a joke, right?
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Old 14th October 2020, 04:32 PM   #302
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Only bad thing about Rittenhouse going up the river is that the neo Nazis will try to make him a Martyr for their "cause"...the new Horst Wessel.
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Old 14th October 2020, 04:40 PM   #303
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"Glad we don't need a criminal justice system in this country..."

Reducing the Police Dep'ts. within that system is the DEMAND of the entire BLM movement, no?
When riots occur, oftentimes the targets are the buildings that contain the key element of criminal justice system -- the law enforcement part.

Kenosha being a case in point.

Attack on Municipal building
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Old 14th October 2020, 04:47 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Only bad thing about Rittenhouse going up the river is that the neoNazis will try to make him a Martyr for their "cause"...the new Horst Wessel.
Perhaps that is where the millions of $$ in donations for his defense are coming from?


From WIKI:
By the period 1929–30, the continual violence in Berlin between the street fighters of the Nazi Party and other extreme right-wing groups, and those of the Communist Party and other parties on the left, had become a virtual civil war the Prussian police were powerless to control.
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Old 14th October 2020, 04:55 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Perhaps that is where the millions of $$ in donations for his defense are coming from?


From WIKI:
By the period 1929–30, the continual violence in Berlin between the street fighters of the Nazi Party and other extreme right-wing groups, and those of the Communist Party and other parties on the left, had become a virtual civil war the Prussian police were powerless to control.
Why were there protests in Kenosha again?
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Old 14th October 2020, 05:47 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Why were there protests in Kenosha again?
I dunno 'bout all that, but it can be said that Kyle Rittenhouse put a stop to the entire anarchist mobscene that night.
Pretty much all by himself.
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Old 14th October 2020, 07:27 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Only bad thing about Rittenhouse going up the river is that the neo Nazis will try to make him a Martyr for their "cause"...the new Horst Wessel.
Then I have very good news for you. He's not going to prison. He's Bernie Goetz, Jr.
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Old 14th October 2020, 07:56 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
I dunno 'bout all that, but it can be said that Kyle Rittenhouse put a stop to the entire anarchist mobscene that night.
Pretty much all by himself.
There ya go. A little old-fashioned vigilante street killing and it's all good.

*high fives Klansman*
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Old 14th October 2020, 07:57 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Then I have very good news for you. He's not going to prison. He's Bernie Goetz, Jr.
Very different stories, and political climate. Taking bets?
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Old 14th October 2020, 09:47 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Then I have very good news for you. He's not going to prison.
I hope you are right. This will set an important precedent for when we take up arms against the Deplorables.

I welcome the day when I can openly carry a suitable weapon to defend against a 'disparity of force' (whether or not it is 'legal'). We will need this in the coming civil war, which hopefully will come sooner as a result of Kyle's acquittal. Like Kyle, I'm itching to take out some undesirables on the pretense of fearing for my life.
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Old 15th October 2020, 04:22 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I hope you are right. This will set an important precedent for when we take up arms against the Deplorables.

I welcome the day when I can openly carry a suitable weapon to defend against a 'disparity of force' (whether or not it is 'legal'). We will need this in the coming civil war, which hopefully will come sooner as a result of Kyle's acquittal. Like Kyle, I'm itching to take out some undesirables on the pretense of fearing for my life.
These are the same people declaring that the Denver security guard committed unambiguous murder when he shot dead a belligerent man that attacked a journalist with mace.

It was never about self defense, it's about their desire to kill their enemies without legal consequence.
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Old 15th October 2020, 07:42 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
These are the same people declaring that the Denver security guard committed unambiguous murder when he shot dead a belligerent man that attacked a journalist with mace.

It was never about self defense, it's about their desire to kill their enemies without legal consequence.
They also feel that Kyle is allowed to defend himself, yet his victims are not. The claim that he was retreating, Huber could have felt threatened thinking he was moving back for a better shot. We'll never know how he felt, because he can't defend his actions - like Trayvon Martin.
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Old 15th October 2020, 07:47 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
They also feel that Kyle is allowed to defend himself, yet his victims are not. The claim that he was retreating, Huber could have felt threatened thinking he was moving back for a better shot. We'll never know how he felt, because he can't defend his actions - like Trayvon Martin.
right.

It's the defense of every police shooting.

But despite their best efforts to pretend otherwise, Rittenhouse was neither a cop or a militia man or in any other law enforcement capacity.
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Old 15th October 2020, 07:53 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But despite their best efforts to pretend otherwise, Rittenhouse was neither a cop or a militia man or in any other law enforcement capacity.
Maybe, but if people can defend a cop for thinking a toy car was a gun, or thinking the apartment downstairs was hers, why shouldn't they defend Kyle for thinking he was a cop?

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Old 15th October 2020, 08:14 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I hope you are right. This will set an important precedent for when we take up arms against the Deplorables.

I welcome the day when I can openly carry a suitable weapon to defend against a 'disparity of force' (whether or not it is 'legal'). We will need this in the coming civil war, which hopefully will come sooner as a result of Kyle's acquittal. Like Kyle, I'm itching to take out some undesirables on the pretense of fearing for my life.
I have heard nothing that indicated Kyle was itching to kill people (unlike you, apparently). But I would be the last person to tell you not to pursue your dreams.
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Old 15th October 2020, 11:48 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I have heard nothing that indicated Kyle was itching to kill people (unlike you, apparently). But I would be the last person to tell you not to pursue your dreams.
Then he would have been breaking the law as he would need to be hunting to be legally carrying a rifle. So he was simply hunting protestors, that makes his carrying of the rifle legal.
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Old 15th October 2020, 12:34 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I have heard nothing that indicated Kyle was itching to kill people
Then I have some news for you....
"According to the criminal complaint filed Thursday, Rittenhouse showed “utter disregard for human life,” spurring him to “recklessly cause the death” of Rosenbaum. He also had an “intent to kill” Huber, and later “attempted to cause the death” of Grosskreutz."
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/k...20-8?r=US&IR=T

At the time this little scumbag murdered Rosenbaum, the protest was peaceful... no violence.

Now he might, just might, be able to argue that the later Huber Killing was in self defence, but arguing this defence for the earlier killing when he shot an unarmed Rosenbaum in cold blood, is never going to fly.
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Old 15th October 2020, 05:07 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Then I have some news for you....
"According to the criminal complaint filed Thursday, Rittenhouse showed “utter disregard for human life,” spurring him to “recklessly cause the death” of Rosenbaum. He also had an “intent to kill” Huber, and later “attempted to cause the death” of Grosskreutz."
Well, if the prosecutor says that it must be true. I mean, why go to the bother of having a trial? Just fire up old Sparky.

You guys are going to be so disappointed when this gets pled down to involuntary manslaughter and Ky-Ky gets probation.
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Old 19th October 2020, 10:27 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Well, if the prosecutor says that it must be true. I mean, why go to the bother of having a trial? Just fire up old Sparky.

You guys are going to be so disappointed when this gets pled down to involuntary manslaughter and Ky-Ky gets probation.
Ah so the gun just went off and he did not intend to fire at anyone. That is a new and totally different theory. I mean it is always a mix of guns never go off unintentioally, to guns go off all the time for no reason and we can't hold people accountable because their gun went off.

Or you have some crazy idea that shooting people is a fun harmless thing and it was just a crazy accident that shooting someone killed them.

It does get rid of the whole self defense arguments people were making, as he never intended to hurt anyone he can not possibly have shot anyone in self defense.
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Last edited by ponderingturtle; 19th October 2020 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 19th October 2020, 10:55 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Well, if the prosecutor says that it must be true. I mean, why go to the bother of having a trial? Just fire up old Sparky.

You guys are going to be so disappointed when this gets pled down to involuntary manslaughter and Ky-Ky gets probation.
Care to make this prediction interesting? Avatar bet, perhaps?
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