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Old 8th November 2020, 05:56 PM   #121
dirtywick
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
To put it in the same way antifacists usually do:

"All a white nationalist needs to do to get us away, is to stop being a white nationalist. For black, Jewish, Hispanic, etc. people to appease white nationalists, they need to all die." There's...a bit of a difference there.
That’s a good quote
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Old 8th November 2020, 05:59 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Whatfor View Post
Several of them said that they voted Republican because they didn't like the Democrats (pretty sure they meant the Democratic Party's programs, not on a personal level)
I think for a big chunk of people it is personal. They vote for who they'd rather have a beer with. Hillary would have made a better president, but c'mon, you know Trump's got some dead hooker stories.

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Old 8th November 2020, 07:47 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
They're making a deliberately dishonest argument; I wouldn't bother trying to address it.

It is okay to categorize people by their actions or chosen beliefs, and criticizing such groups is not immoral the way that criticizing a group of people categorized by an accident of birth or something over which they have little or no control would be.
Umm,

"Bigotry:

obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."

Nothing mentioned about birthrights within the definition of "bigotry".

Again, self examination of how we feel about certain individuals within certain "memberships" says much about us. Bigotry will not heal a divide.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:33 PM   #124
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It always has been completely bizarre to me to see socialists describe capitalism, the voluntary exchange of goods and services in the private sector where both parties benefit from the exchange in a non zero sum way, as "greed" and describe the greed-based ideology of socialism as somehow not based on greed. and by the way, social spending and welfare for the needy, is not socialism, It is the fruits of capitalism that provide us with the means to provide such goods and services to the less fortunate.
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:24 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Umm,

"Bigotry:

obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."

Nothing mentioned about birthrights within the definition of "bigotry".
Judgment on the basis of actions or expressed beliefs is the definitional opposite of "prejudice", and is not inherently unreasonable.
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Old 9th November 2020, 01:32 AM   #126
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One of the biggest problems appears to be a lack of shared facts.

I think there may need to be a taskforce set up to look at ways to regulate social media more. Perhaps limits, strict regulations or even a ban on targeted political ads, particularly anything not directly from the campaigns and anything with false information.

Obviously individual people will still share CT nonsense and I don't know if there's a way to make it harder for people find their way down extremist rabbit holes, but I think we're getting to a point where it's essential that we tackle such things. I realize there's a tricky line to walk with freedom of expression and censorship (which I'm generally not in favor of). Maybe there's an option that could open up internet bubbles into a more balanced marketplace of ideas.
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Old 9th November 2020, 01:51 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Racism and hate will never heal any divide.
Agreed! I also agree with the posters pointing out that discrimination based on political opinions is quite a different category from racism. But I can also understand how a generalization of Trump supporters looks like prejudice.

Genuine question about the quote in your sig (and apologies if you've covered this elsewhere): So, that's from a statement written for Trump to read after he got into hot water from his comments after Charlotsville. It was a good statement and I think we'd all agree with the bulk of it. Do you believe that it actually represents Trump's real opinion, considering some of the other stuff he's said when not scripted? For example, his comments on racehorse theory from his Bemidji rally in September (audience made up mostly of Scandy/German descendants) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_PqlMfq6lU. To be honest, I was horrified.
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Old 9th November 2020, 02:17 AM   #128
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Then maybe it's time for Fox to stop using the term "hate" so much.
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Old 9th November 2020, 05:45 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
It always has been completely bizarre to me to see socialists describe capitalism, the voluntary exchange of goods and services in the private sector where both parties benefit from the exchange in a non zero sum way, as "greed" and describe the greed-based ideology of socialism as somehow not based on greed. and by the way, social spending and welfare for the needy, is not socialism, It is the fruits of capitalism that provide us with the means to provide such goods and services to the less fortunate.
You know, redefinition of words in way that suit you and no one else uses is sign of kookery.
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Old 9th November 2020, 04:58 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Well, visitors to the Disney parks will no longer be subjected to torture by this:
Huh. I'm sure that's supposed to be Trump... but it kind of looks like the evil love child of Trump and Clinton.
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Old 9th November 2020, 05:05 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It is okay to categorize people by their actions or chosen beliefs, and criticizing such groups is not immoral the way that criticizing a group of people categorized by an accident of birth or something over which they have little or no control would be.
Just want to pop in here for a moment and point out that the Crusades and the Inquisition and the various persecutions of Jews throughout history have not been about some concept of race, but have actually been about their beliefs and actions.

Politics has become a religion. This Democrats versus Republicans thing is just as much ******** as Christians versus Jews, or Catholics versus Protestants. And every bit as destructive.
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Old 9th November 2020, 05:07 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Judgment on the basis of actions or expressed beliefs is the definitional opposite of "prejudice", and is not inherently unreasonable.
Hooray for religious persecution! It's done so much good in the world!
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Old 9th November 2020, 05:08 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
Agreed! I also agree with the posters pointing out that discrimination based on political opinions is quite a different category from racism.
Sure. In exactly the same way that discrimination based on religion is quite a different category from racism. Discrimination based on religion is perfectly fine, right?
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Old 9th November 2020, 11:12 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Just want to pop in here for a moment and point out that the Crusades and the Inquisition and the various persecutions of Jews throughout history have not been about some concept of race, but have actually been about their beliefs and actions.

Politics has become a religion. This Democrats versus Republicans thing is just as much ******** as Christians versus Jews, or Catholics versus Protestants. And every bit as destructive.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Sure. In exactly the same way that discrimination based on religion is quite a different category from racism. Discrimination based on religion is perfectly fine, right?
Fortunately, we're not talking about concentration camps, inquisitions or burning people at the stake (just yet). I take your point that it doesn't really matter what the discrimination is based on, such things are destructive to society.

I think there are various, not insignificant differences between prejudice based on race and religion and political opinions (and some parallels), but generally in the wild, there are all kinds of overlaps: Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are rarely without a racial element, politics often uses racial divides and religion as tools and religion becomes political as soon as it gains any power.

Has politics become a religion in America? The overlaps are certainly there and the dangerous tribalism exists. Trumpism has some of the hallmarks of a religious cult, but I don''t think the same can be said for Biden voters (or for many Republican voters for whom Trump is a means to an end or vote through party loyalty/tradition). I think for many, the idea of a Biden presidency represents a relief in that they can stop worrying so much about politics and political identity and just get on with their lives.

To bring this back to the thread topic, I can see the parallels and warnings of a comparison to Catholic and Protestants, but I'm not sure how helpful that is in addressing the issues right now in America. The suggestion with such a comparison is that both sides are equally as responsible for the tribalism by not being willing to compromise and that's not what's happening. We've had over 4 years of liberals and moderates being expected to be the ones to listen to Trump supporters and they have. But what the Trump folk tell them is that they hate America and eat babies.
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Old 10th November 2020, 07:38 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Sure. In exactly the same way that discrimination based on religion is quite a different category from racism. Discrimination based on religion is perfectly fine, right?
Are we supposed to say "Yes" just so you can act like we've said something horrible?

Yes. Being judged on opinions you hold when those opinions are wrong is functionally completely different from being judged on something you have no control over.

Yes. Being judged for things that make a difference is functionally completely different from being judged on something that makes no difference.

Also being judged for being wrong is functionally completely different from being judged for being correct.

But again "wrong" only works when "facts" are a thing that exists and we don't live in that world anymore.
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Old 10th November 2020, 09:04 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
A promising analysis of Trump supporters comes from a Jon Shields (and his wife).

Shields appears here with Glenn Loury:

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I AGREE


The most interesting part of the discussion is Shields' contention that Trump appeals to an "honor" culture that's still prevalent in the United States. It's easy to dismiss Cheeto Von Tweeto's supporters as racist, toothless deplorables, but one should try to appreciate where they're coming from. Small towns are dying, and, in spite of white privilege, it's not so easy for people to just move away.

If you're a member of the professional class, you might be able to feel at home in any large urban area. He gives the example of a professor upgrading their job from a prestigiuous university to Harvard (a more prestigiuous unviersity). But leaving a small community (rather than making it great again) welcomes "social death." Your town has streets named after family members; your ancestors might even be buried on your property. There's a connectedness that's mostly missing in anonymous city life.

Somebody analyzed country music and found that a lot of the songs have intergenerational connections. "I used to try to get with the farmer's daughter, but now I'm a daddy protecting my own daughter." There's also an unusual kind of pride: "I've been every where in the world, but nothing compares to the willow tree in my backyard." In other words, rootless cosmopolitans winning in global capitalism have trouble empathizing with more rural folks. There's also a politics of resentment (which is at the core of most identity politics).

I've heard farmers complain that they wake up at the ass crack of dawn to feed this country, but they don't enjoy the income and prestige of kids who play video games. The whole What Happened to Kansas thesis continually goes back to how rural people used to be quite socialist. Wealthy east-coast bankers got rich manipulating numbers.

One of the more interesting observations in the talk is that honor culture does not scale up effectively. Reputation might work in smaller, familial communities, but not so much when you're dealing with national politics. He gives some good examples. Obviously you should watch at 2x speed (because urban people talk faster than rural people).
But we are talking about a small percentage of Trump voters. That is why this often rings as virtue signaling, as many of the issues of widening gap between rich and poor, the death of the middle class and lack of opportunity are not remotely a rural/urban divide.

Farmers make up 1.3% of the population, at best factoring in other factors you get what 10% of the population as truly rural in that sense, even if they all went trump that is still only a quarter of his support.

Then of course there is the issue that they seem to be more effectively motivated by hate/fear of others than by programs that seek to retrain and open up new careers in their own communities it becomes hard to work to help someone who does not want it.
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Old 10th November 2020, 09:14 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The level of remote/offsite/away from HQ/whatever work require to maintain the rural areas will require a major shift in a lot of corporate mentality.
But we are seeing that to some degree from covid.
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Old 10th November 2020, 09:32 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
It always has been completely bizarre to me to see socialists describe capitalism, the voluntary exchange of goods and services in the private sector where both parties benefit from the exchange in a non zero sum way, as "greed" and describe the greed-based ideology of socialism as somehow not based on greed. and by the way, social spending and welfare for the needy, is not socialism, It is the fruits of capitalism that provide us with the means to provide such goods and services to the less fortunate.
As long as the needy can pay for them of course. Once you have acquired all their money and resources they can die in a ditch and capitalism is fine with that. It is about the acquisition of more stuff after all, he with the biggest bank accounts wins and all.

By your definitions the pharmaceutical industry spending vastly more on stock buybacks than research is anti capitalism as it serves to only inflate their stock price and not do anything of broad benefit. Yet that would seem to fit quite well into capitalism by anyone else's definition of it.
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Old 10th November 2020, 09:49 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Are we supposed to say "Yes" just so you can act like we've said something horrible?

Yes. Being judged on opinions you hold when those opinions are wrong is functionally completely different from being judged on something you have no control over.

Yes. Being judged for things that make a difference is functionally completely different from being judged on something that makes no difference.

Also being judged for being wrong is functionally completely different from being judged for being correct.

But again "wrong" only works when "facts" are a thing that exists and we don't live in that world anymore.
I think it's important for a free society to recognize that a difference of belief is acceptable. Draw a distinction between belief and action.

Even in your post here, you're varnishing this with implied moral judgements. You've decided that someone else's opinion is morally wrong. Fundamentally, this means that you have decided that your beliefs are the morally right beliefs, and that beliefs which differ from yours in that arena are effectively evil. It allows you to demonize those who view the world differently than you.

That demonization, that presumption of moral righteousness, has always been the cornerstone of persecution.

I don't want a civil war waged on the basis of belief. And whether you view it as religion or not, politics is a collection of values and beliefs.
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Old 10th November 2020, 09:57 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Even in your post here, you're varnishing this with implied moral judgements. You've decided that someone else's opinion is morally wrong. Fundamentally, this means that you have decided that your beliefs are the morally right beliefs, and that beliefs which differ from yours in that arena are effectively evil. It allows you to demonize those who view the world differently than you.

That demonization, that presumption of moral righteousness, has always been the cornerstone of persecution.
Yes those people who object to racism are the true bigots. Racism is just a simple matter of opinion and you can't hold someone's opinions against them.
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Old 10th November 2020, 09:59 AM   #141
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Seems like an awfully naive view to believe that Trump leaving power means that the country will de-Trumpify.

Trump didn't create his base. They were always there, and they will remain waiting for the next right wing reactionary that is willing to abandon dog whistling and openly advocate a proto-fascist position. Trump has shown that there is a viable path through appealing heavily to reactionary grievance politics.

If anything, Trump leaving creates a vacuum for a more competent, more vicious leader to rise to the top.

The way to deTrumpify the country is to address the underlying issues leading to such viciousness and desperation among the people. Technocratic neoliberalism is not the solution. If material conditions for the broader public don't improve during the next few years the stage will remain set for the next Trump to seize power.
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Old 10th November 2020, 10:08 AM   #142
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I just realized:

Trump is going to be the JFK of the 21st Century: the focal point of all US conspiracies, the one good guy who was (character-) assassinated by the (((Media-Industrial Complex))) because (enter reason here).

We will never, ever, hear the end of this.
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Old 10th November 2020, 11:06 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I don't want a civil war waged on the basis of belief. And whether you view it as religion or not, politics is a collection of values and beliefs.
*Sighs* Why do people always go here? As if the only way to go "You're wrong" is through jackbooted thugs or civil war?

There's no law that says 2+2=4. If you think 2+2=5 there is no law that can be used against you. You will not be thrown in the gulag for thinking the Battle of Hastings was in 1776.

And there's no slippery slope to any of those we have to pretend to worry about.

But you're still wrong and society and culture aren't expected to pretend otherwise. Wrong ideas just wither and die because they simply don't work as long as society doesn't make excuses from and defend people from having to deal it.
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Old 10th November 2020, 11:10 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems like an awfully naive view to believe that Trump leaving power means that the country will de-Trumpify.


Did you even read the OP? The actual question was even in bold:


What do we do with the trumpkins?

Yes, it's obvious they won't de-Trumpify entirely of their own accord. The whole point of this thread was to solicit ideas of how we could encourage them to de-Trumpify. No one posting here is of the opinion that this will be easy, and I suspect more than a few think it might actually be impossible.

But if we don't try something, things will just continue to get worse. So, do you have any suggestions?
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Old 10th November 2020, 11:12 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If you think 2+2=5 there is no law that can be used against you.


I suspect there's something in the tax code that we could use, there.
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Old 10th November 2020, 11:39 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Sighs* Why do people always go here? As if the only way to go "You're wrong" is through jackbooted thugs or civil war?

There's no law that says 2+2=4. If you think 2+2=5 there is no law that can be used against you. You will not be thrown in the gulag for thinking the Battle of Hastings was in 1776.

And there's no slippery slope to any of those we have to pretend to worry about.

But you're still wrong and society and culture aren't expected to pretend otherwise. Wrong ideas just wither and die because they simply don't work as long as society doesn't make excuses from and defend people from having to deal it.
These aren't the same things here. You're talking about people being factually incorrect about observable and objective things. That's not what I'm talking about, and that's not what's at the heart of this division.

This isn't about factual errors. It's about differences in belief and differences in values. Those are subjective things, which are not factual in nature. There is no truth involved in it. It's pure belief.

That's the problem, imo. Politics taps into those values and beliefs... and when people begin to vilify and demonize other groups of people on the basis of their internal belief systems, that quickly leads to persecution. The assumption of moral righteousness has been used as the rationalization and justification of horrors throughout history.
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Old 10th November 2020, 11:45 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
What do we do with the trumpkins?
I dunno, I mean, I know it seems kind of crazy... but have you thought about perhaps not treating them like they're subhuman?
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Old 10th November 2020, 11:47 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Did you even read the OP? The actual question was even in bold:


What do we do with the trumpkins?

Yes, it's obvious they won't de-Trumpify entirely of their own accord. The whole point of this thread was to solicit ideas of how we could encourage them to de-Trumpify. No one posting here is of the opinion that this will be easy, and I suspect more than a few think it might actually be impossible.

But if we don't try something, things will just continue to get worse. So, do you have any suggestions?
Labeling them Trumpkins itself a problem. Trump gained popularity by speaking to these people, but he didn't implant an ideology into their heads. Their desire for a reactionary style of politics predates Trump. They were "Trumpkins" before Trump ever threw his hat into the ring. It's the reason that people like Tucker Carlson or Ben Shapiro remain so popular in right wing media.

The OP also states that the BLM protest movement started in 2016, which is demonstrably false. BLM traces its roots directly to the Ferguson riots of the late Obama era.

To be honest, I think far too much emphasis is placed on Trump himself. Sure, the loss means that the reactionaries suffered a demoralizing loss through their strongman leader, but there is no reason to believe that this strain of ideology is vanquished. Another 4 years of feckless leadership from the Democratic party practically guarantees that the embers of fascism will remain red hot and ready to catch fire anew during the next election cycle.

As for a solution, there has to be a meaningful alternative to fascism that provides a promising future for these people, and all of America. That isn't the brand of third way liberalism that Democrats are offering. The strains of anti-elitism that is the backbone of the MAGA movement is rooted in a real grievance. This country's government is unsympathetic to the needs of ordinary people and is openly contemptuous of them, and that breeds resentment that can turn extremely nasty on a large enough scale, as we've seen in the last 4 years.

I would suggest that a slate of progressive economic policies that stops the looting of the nation by the ultra wealthy and powerful corporations and reallocates resources in a way that actually benefits ordinary people is a must to prevent a resurgent far-right in the near future.

Anyone who thinks we're going back to brunch and that the threat has passed because Trump is out is a fool and part of the problem. People are still suffering. Trump has failed them, but their problems remain and must be addressed, or else they will continue down this road of destructive despair.
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:07 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I dunno, I mean, I know it seems kind of crazy... but have you thought about perhaps not treating them like they're subhuman?
Tit for tat is entirely fair.
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:08 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I dunno, I mean, I know it seems kind of crazy... but have you thought about perhaps not treating them like they're subhuman?
it seems crazy ... but how can we take people seriously who believe that your highest goal in life is to turn the US into a communist state, force everyone to become vegetarian, take everyone's guns, hand control to the UN and rape and eat babies .... not in that order.

If Trump supporters want to be taken seriously, they first have to take THEMSELVES seriously - and that starts with having an intellectually honest opinion and not just an incoherent mumble of conspiracy theories.
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:11 PM   #151
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As much as I dislike your style, and frequently disagree with your means, I often agree with the ends that you're after.


Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The strains of anti-elitism that is the backbone of the MAGA movement is rooted in a real grievance. This country's government is unsympathetic to the needs of ordinary people and is openly contemptuous of them, and that breeds resentment that can turn extremely nasty on a large enough scale, as we've seen in the last 4 years.
It's been going on for a really long time. Most of my life I've watched the liberals drift further and further into "ivory tower" positions, which present a very academic and theoretical "solution" to a problem they don't actually understand. Granted, the conservatives haven't addressed those problems either (and have just as often contributed to them)... but at least the conservatives generally aren't dismissive and condescending about it. The only thing worse than ignoring real problems... is insisting that the people with the problems are too stupid to be worth your attention while you ignore their real problems.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I would suggest that a slate of progressive economic policies that stops the looting of the nation by the ultra wealthy and powerful corporations and reallocates resources in a way that actually benefits ordinary people is a must to prevent a resurgent far-right in the near future.
I'm not sure about this. It depends very much on what policies you're talking about. Medicare for All and Free College sound great on paper - but they don't address the needs of a lot of people in the center of the country. UBI might make it a little less painful... but that still doesn't create jobs that allow people to live where they want to live and have the lives they want to have. We need to find ways to bring manufacturing and core industry back to the US, with US employees.
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:12 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Tit for tat is entirely fair.
Eye for a eye, tooth for a tooth, blood for blood. Excellent strategy for conciliation.
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:15 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
it seems crazy ... but how can we take people seriously who believe that your highest goal in life is to turn the US into a communist state, force everyone to become vegetarian, take everyone's guns, hand control to the UN and rape and eat babies .... not in that order.

If Trump supporters want to be taken seriously, they first have to take THEMSELVES seriously - and that starts with having an intellectually honest opinion and not just an incoherent mumble of conspiracy theories.
Sure sure. I mean, they believe something different from you, so obviously they're a completely different and inferior species. No need for basic human decency. Better to what? Re-educate them? Round them up and put them in camps and brainwash them? That's expensive though. Maybe just persecute them as heretics and execute them if they don't convert. We should really just stick with the tried and true methods, right?
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:19 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Eye for a eye, tooth for a tooth, blood for blood. Excellent strategy for conciliation.
Yes the only true solution to fascism is give in and give them everything they want. Capitulation to racism is the only way to go.
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:21 PM   #155
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So what are the Trumpers willing to give up then?

I'm not (in the abstract) arguing against reconcil-compris-whatever but it seems to be a rather one way street that is going straight to "Okay now civility and niceness and compromise is super important since we're not holding all the cards" from the people who were all "Screw your feeling snowflake."
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:21 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I would suggest that a slate of progressive economic policies that stops the looting of the nation by the ultra wealthy and powerful corporations and reallocates resources in a way that actually benefits ordinary people is a must to prevent a resurgent far-right in the near future.

That's not a plan, that's a platitude. That's no different than me saying I'll address systemic racism by decreasing racial animosity. Sounds nice, sure, but how do you do that?

What policies are you suggesting? Practical ones, not just pie in the sky, "Let's make corporations pay taxes!" generalities.

Then, what's your plan for actually getting those policies enacted into law? Please account for the very real possibility of yet another GOP dominated Senate obstructing any such plans for at least the next two years.

We've heard the platitudes. Hell, the last four years have been nothing but platitudes from Trump, with little or no actual policy being presented.

You keep complaining about people "going back to brunch" because they think it's all over now, but you're no better than them*. Spouting platitudes without plans does no good at all.





*Not that they actually exist. I don't think I've seen any actual people claiming it's all over now. Literally everybody knows there's still a huge uphill battle involved. Stop with the silly strawman BS, and suggest an actual plan.
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:24 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So what are the Trumpers willing to give up then?

I'm not (in the abstract) arguing against reconcil-compris-whatever but it seems to be a rather one way street that is going straight to "Okay now civility and niceness and compromise is super important since we're not holding all the cards" from the people who were all "Screw your feeling snowflake."
Exactly there is a reason reconciliation processes tend to have a Truth and Reconciliation commission and not just reconciliation. But Emily is quite willing to sacrifice the truth to perceived reconciliation.
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:24 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Sure sure. I mean, they believe something different from you,


When what they "believe" is something completely disconnected from demonstrable reality, then yes, there's a problem. Acting like this isn't true isn't going to fix anything.
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Old 10th November 2020, 12:37 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's been going on for a really long time. Most of my life I've watched the liberals drift further and further into "ivory tower" positions, which present a very academic and theoretical "solution" to a problem they don't actually understand. Granted, the conservatives haven't addressed those problems either (and have just as often contributed to them)... but at least the conservatives generally aren't dismissive and condescending about it. The only thing worse than ignoring real problems... is insisting that the people with the problems are too stupid to be worth your attention while you ignore their real problems.
Yet of course you are patronizing them by assuming they are too stupid to realize all of this. When does an argument based on the purported ignorance of the individuals involved stop being patronizing?

I figure they are smart and knowledgeable and are thus fine with Trumps blatant racism, and know his promises are empty. Then it seems the racism is the biggest reason to vote for him but of course pointing that out is right out too.

With this many restraints on basic fact how can there be any meaningful reconciliation?

He inspired many who's defense of him involved things like "take him seriously not literally" or my coworker asserting that his wall was all a metaphor and not a real policy proposal. They know he is full of it, the racism is blatant so what was compelling about him?

I mean sure Trump supporters are racists and rapists but some I assume are nice people. They can't possibly take issue with that as it is just rephrasing the totally not racist statements of Trump so either trump was racist all along and they didn't care and the statement is true or there is nothing insulting about that statement.
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Old 10th November 2020, 01:37 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
That's not a plan, that's a platitude. That's no different than me saying I'll address systemic racism by decreasing racial animosity. Sounds nice, sure, but how do you do that?

What policies are you suggesting? Practical ones, not just pie in the sky, "Let's make corporations pay taxes!" generalities.

Then, what's your plan for actually getting those policies enacted into law? Please account for the very real possibility of yet another GOP dominated Senate obstructing any such plans for at least the next two years.

We've heard the platitudes. Hell, the last four years have been nothing but platitudes from Trump, with little or no actual policy being presented.

You keep complaining about people "going back to brunch" because they think it's all over now, but you're no better than them*. Spouting platitudes without plans does no good at all.





*Not that they actually exist. I don't think I've seen any actual people claiming it's all over now. Literally everybody knows there's still a huge uphill battle involved. Stop with the silly strawman BS, and suggest an actual plan.
Realistically, I don't think there's much that can be done right now, considering who represents the Democratic party, that can alleviate this issue. They are ideologically opposed to the solutions to these problems. Even if they had swept the Senate in the election, they wouldn't take the necessary action.

Pragmatically this is a longer term project, and I very much worry there's not enough time to get it done considering the current state of things and the immediate danger of the situation.

Assuming there is enough time, there needs to be a push for more specific policies that ensure ordinary people a decent qualify of life while protecting them from the slings and arrows of the misfortunes of capitalism.

That means increased social spending to ensure people can get as much training and education as their abilities allow, increased worker protection that makes the workplace less fraught with abuse by management, increasing minimum wage such that full time employment leads to a livable wage, increased unemployment protection, maternity and paternity leave, increased social spending on children, universal medical care, and so on. Increased taxes on the wealthy will of course be necessary to pay for these programs, and reversing the trend of wealth accumulation over the last few decades is a worthy goal.

We've already seen the first steps towards achieving this goal. Challenging corporate democrats in deep blue states with progressive candidates is an important step, and I expect we'll only see more of this as time goes on.

I just worry there isn't enough time. The corporate dems won't go easily.
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