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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 11th November 2020, 01:53 PM   #41
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Not sure why these things keep getting brought up. SCOTUS already ruled, faithless electors are not legal.
IIRC, the Court ruled that States can slap a faithless elector with a fine and enforce existing laws, and replace them in the EC, not that they were illegal votes
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Old 11th November 2020, 01:54 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Trump doesn't drink beer.
Yeah, but he is quite the putsch.
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Old 11th November 2020, 02:04 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Trump doesn't drink beer.
He's got people for that (Kavanaugh).
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Old 11th November 2020, 02:14 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
But wait, there's more.

If Trump cannot prevail in lawsuits in PA and other swing states, he can perhaps convince GOP-majority state legislatures to appoint slates of electors in lieu of the ones chosen by voters.
I previously wrote a post speculating that could happen. I was wrong.

The legislature has the authority to establish the rule for choosing the electors. They can pretty much do it how ever they want. However, the laws have to be established prior to election day (well, they can do it after but it would make the appointment of electors inconclusive).

It is the governor who has the authority over certification of the electors. The legislature could choose to establish their own slate of electors. The governor could then submit his own.

The U.S. Constitution specifically lays out what happens in that case. The U.S. House and Senate would each vote on which slate of electors to accept. If the House and Senate do not agree, the electors certified by the state executive (the governor) are accepted.

Governor could get up to some shenanigans, but out of WI, PA, NV, AZ, and GA only AZ and GA have Republican Governors, which (it currently appears) isn't enough to change the outcome of the election.
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Old 11th November 2020, 02:20 PM   #45
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A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle."
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Old 11th November 2020, 02:44 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
IIRC, the Court ruled that States can slap a faithless elector with a fine and enforce existing laws, and replace them in the EC, not that they were illegal votes
Just to expand a little. Only 33 states have laws against faithless electors.
Georgia and Pennsylvania are among those that don't.

And of those 33, only 14 have laws that cancel and replace a faithless vote.
Wisconsin has a law, but no penalty or cancellation.


https://www.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws


It was on my mind more when it looked like Biden may have had the bare 270.
If just one elector had dropped ship (say to vote for Bernie Sanders) then no candidate would have the required 270 and congress would select the winners. That would mean a President Biden with his Vice president Pence.

Since we're higher above that threshhold, we'd need a bunch of states flipping and a ridiculous amount of elector defection to change the outcome. Nothing's impossible, but pretty unlikely.
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Old 11th November 2020, 02:46 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle."
Terrible title. He needs to play up his underdog, outsider status a little more. Highlight the immigration journey his family took. How does that translate to German?
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Old 11th November 2020, 02:53 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Governor could get up to some shenanigans, but out of WI, PA, NV, AZ, and GA only AZ and GA have Republican Governors, which (it currently appears) isn't enough to change the outcome of the election.
So all they really need is for Trump-appointed justices to throw out the results in PA (based on this theory) along with GOP state legislatures to overturn the electors in AZ and GA. Boom.
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Old 11th November 2020, 02:53 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Just to expand a little. Only 33 states have laws against faithless electors.
Georgia and Pennsylvania are among those that don't.

And of those 33, only 14 have laws that cancel and replace a faithless vote.
Wisconsin has a law, but no penalty or cancellation.


https://www.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws


It was on my mind more whe
n it looked like Biden may have had the bare 270.
If just one elector had dropped ship (say to vote for Bernie Sanders) then no candidate would have the required 270 and congress would select the winners. That would mean a President Biden with his Vice president Pence.

Since we're higher above that threshhold, we'd need a bunch of states flipping and a ridiculous amount of elector defection to change the outcome. Nothing's impossible, but pretty unlikely.

Yes, and again IIRC, some of the faithless electors were making a symbolic protest vote, and knew they weren't flipping the table. A few saying "Trump? Hell no" and "I luv Bern" but knowing it wouldn't have teeth in the final count.
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Old 11th November 2020, 03:01 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, and again IIRC, some of the faithless electors were making a symbolic protest vote, and knew they weren't flipping the table. A few saying "Trump? Hell no" and "I luv Bern" but knowing it wouldn't have teeth in the final count.
I don't believe faithless electors have ever effected the president. However, Maga Koolaid is STRONG stuff. And these "I used to be a democrat until Trump swept me off my feet" guys are real. A friend of mine was married to one.

If the election really was one secret MAGA hat away from being stolen, I don't know how well I'd be sleeping.
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Old 11th November 2020, 03:16 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I don't believe faithless electors have ever effected the president. However, Maga Koolaid is STRONG stuff. And these "I used to be a democrat until Trump swept me off my feet" guys are real. A friend of mine was married to one.

If the election really was one secret MAGA hat away from being stolen, I don't know how well I'd be sleeping.
Tru dat. Especially if s/he was in an unregulated State and their flip would immortalize them and change the course of history. All the more reason to regulate an EC voter's options at the State level for any eventuality
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Old 11th November 2020, 03:49 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think ww are into Disaster Porn here.
Yep, what next? Exhortations to buy rilfes and ammo and take up arms, presumably.
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Old 11th November 2020, 04:23 PM   #53
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There may actually be something to be concerned about here....

Quote:
Washington (CNN)The Trump administration has carried out sweeping changes atop the Defense Department's civilian leadership structure, removing several of its most senior officials and replacing them with perceived loyalists to the President.

The flurry of changes, announced by the Department of Defense in a statement roughly 24 hours after President Donald Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper, have put officials inside the Pentagon on edge and fueled a growing sense of alarm among military and civilian officials, who are concerned about what could come next.
Link
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th November 2020, 04:35 PM   #54
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In my opinion, Trump is too big coward to do anything drastic. He will do anything that he can get away with, though.
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Old 11th November 2020, 04:39 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle."
Nice.
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:07 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
There may actually be something to be concerned about here....

Quote:
Quote:
Washington (CNN)The Trump administration has carried out sweeping changes atop the Defense Department's civilian leadership structure, removing several of its most senior officials and replacing them with perceived loyalists to the President.

The flurry of changes, announced by the Department of Defense in a statement roughly 24 hours after President Donald Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper, have put officials inside the Pentagon on edge and fueled a growing sense of alarm among military and civilian officials, who are concerned about what could come next.
I didn't think the Secretary of Defense was in the chain of command.

ETA: After reading a little bit, now I'm not sure.
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:12 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle."
My Jihad?
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:14 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
I didn't think the Secretary of Defense was in the chain of command.

ETA: After reading a little bit, now I'm not sure.
Yeah he’s #2 to the president.
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:35 PM   #59
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For the fear mongerers that keep suggesting state legislators are possibly going to overturn their own state's vote and send in either faithless electors, or simply call the state for Trumpy:

Name the states that are planning this. Post the evidence they are planning this. Post some evidence always Trumpers are planning a faithless elector coup.


Moving on to the evidence-based fear mongering : What is Trump planning by changing the civilian heads of the Pentagon and other departments?[indent]Is it petty revenge?
Is it to move the troops out from overseas and if so is it from (multiple votes allowed):
Germany
North Korea (maybe a parting gift to little Kim?)
Afghanistan
Iraq
Somewhere else
Is it a plan (whether realistic or not) to stay in office by
Stalling certification of EC votes
Declaring Martial Law
A coup (attempted or not)
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:37 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
In my opinion, Trump is too big coward to do anything drastic. He will do anything that he can get away with, though.
I think that lends toward withdrawing some troops.

Petty revenge would still be on the table.
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:41 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is it a plan (whether realistic or not) to stay in office by
Stalling certification of EC votes
Declaring Martial Law
A coup (attempted or not)
Isn't it already established that 2 lawsuits seek to block certification in 2 states (PA & MI)? Of course, the courts are laughing in his face since they are providing no justification.
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:43 PM   #62
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Relevant article:
https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-hard-it-overturn-american-election
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:46 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
Recent events in the US have closed that academic vs real world feel gap. Now I understand better how regimes like that start to rise.

It's pretty scary.
When facism comes to America it will be holding a Bible and humping a flag. Or however the saying goes.
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:49 PM   #64
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Re faithless electors:

Fox9
Quote:
SCOTUS affirmed that state laws binding electors were constitutional. This ruling left in place laws in 33 states and the District of Columbia that bind electors to vote for the popular-vote winner.
That doesn't sound like it was only a ruling on the penalty.

Not sure what happens to the vote if they do it anyway. I would think Biden could file a lawsuit if it mattered.
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:51 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Yeah he’s #2 to the president.
Thanks. Maybe I was thinking of the VP. I also read the SecDef is the "assistant" to the president.
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Old 11th November 2020, 05:57 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

Moving on to the evidence-based fear mongering : What is Trump planning by changing the civilian heads of the Pentagon and other departments?[indent]Is it petty revenge?
Is it to move the troops out from overseas and if so is it from (multiple votes allowed):
Germany
North Korea (maybe a parting gift to little Kim?)
Afghanistan
Iraq
Somewhere else
Is it a plan (whether realistic or not) to stay in office by
Stalling certification of EC votes
Declaring Martial Law
A coup (attempted or not)
South Korea, obviously rather than North.
No significant US Troops in Iraq any more, I think. Because Commie Muslim Obama pulled them out, although we have advisors there and are probably doing air stikes from elsewhere. Pulling them out of NATO countries, not just Germany is likely. South Korea very likely. Afghanistan not unlikely.

As for the second part, he wanted to send troops into Portland last summer but the SecDef forestalled him. Pretty much any sort of protest and he can do it now, Martial Law or no. That'll lead to more unrest giving him an excuse for nationwide martial law. Once that's declared opponents and journalists can be arrested.
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Old 11th November 2020, 06:00 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
In my opinion, Trump is too big coward to do anything drastic. He will do anything that he can get away with, though.
He's a physical coward. He's perfectly happy tell his supporters and the police to assault protesters. Like using other people's money, he's happy to shed other people's blood.
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Old 11th November 2020, 06:10 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Isn't it already established that 2 lawsuits seek to block certification in 2 states (PA & MI)? Of course, the courts are laughing in his face since they are providing no justification.
That proves the courts are part of the conspiracy.

Get rid of them immediately.
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Old 11th November 2020, 06:14 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trump is installing loyalists in top positions of the military and Pentagon.
I've heard that referred to as "dictator moves". This of course follows all the "dick moves" he's been making since Day 1.
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Old 11th November 2020, 06:29 PM   #70
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The "country before party" republicans no longer exist.

To be perfectly honest, I now question the sincerity of those words and if perhaps they've always been nothing more than lip service amidst the GOP. Because their actions over the decades (and even more so these past couple of decades) indicates that very thing, nothing but lip service fed to the masses to continue emoting the illusion of "for the people".

Bottom line, Trump cannot pull of a coup d'etat on his own. But with a little help from his friends (the above GOP that I mentioned), it is quite possible that he/they can pull it off. If he didn't think it was doable, he wouldn't be attempting to do so as we speak.

Let's be honest with ourselves here.... Every rule, every law, every policy, and every 'norm' can be turned on its head with the right maneuvers from the right group of individuals. Dump enough money, connections, and like-minded corrupt individuals into anything and anyone can turn the entire planet on its head if they so wish.

Just my 2 pence worth.
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Old 11th November 2020, 06:31 PM   #71
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Somebody on FacePie opines that Donnie is bringing in Rent-a-Lackeys to destroy files. That sounds more likely than anything as manly as a coup.
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Old 11th November 2020, 06:39 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
1 - Continue to refuse to accept the result.
2 - Issue executive order banning the Electoral College from gathering.
3 - Wait for riots to start.
4 - Engage military to quell riots.
5 - Declare Martial Law.
6 - Accept Putin's congratulations.

Ta-da!
Not happening. Even the most recent appointments seem aimed more at covering up criminal activity than at any sort of coup. 2 and 4 on your list are flatly not going to happen. Expect Orange Badman to throw plates at walls, refuse to appear at any inauguration, and spend however long brazenly lying about his popularity - exactly the same as he did about his inauguration size, the "millions" of "illegals" voting in California, and so on. In other words, the same hissy fit he's been throwing for the past decade.
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Old 11th November 2020, 06:42 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Answers a lot of questions about states not turning over their state's votes.
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Old 11th November 2020, 06:44 PM   #74
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Isn't it already established that 2 lawsuits seek to block certification in 2 states (PA & MI)? Of course, the courts are laughing in his face since they are providing no justification.
I think there are about 12 now, none of which have been successful.
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Old 11th November 2020, 06:49 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Not happening. Even the most recent appointments seem aimed more at covering up criminal activity than at any sort of coup. 2 and 4 on your list are flatly not going to happen. Expect Orange Badman to throw plates at walls, refuse to appear at any inauguration, and spend however long brazenly lying about his popularity - exactly the same as he did about his inauguration size, the "millions" of "illegals" voting in California, and so on. In other words, the same hissy fit he's been throwing for the past decade.

Do you really truly honestly believe that this is just Trump throwing another hissy fit? Do you really truly honestly believe that the majority of the republican party would publicly air their fullblown support for something that amounts to nothing more than a hissy fit that has zero chance of getting anywhere?

Come on... surely you guys don't believe the GOP would be in support of something that has no means to an end?

The GOP are corrupt ********, yes, but they're not stupid corrupt ********. There's a difference.
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Old 11th November 2020, 07:06 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Moving on to the evidence-based fear mongering : What is Trump planning by changing the civilian heads of the Pentagon and other departments?[indent]Is it petty revenge?
Is it to move the troops out from overseas and if so is it from (multiple votes allowed):
Germany
North Korea (maybe a parting gift to little Kim?)
Afghanistan
Iraq
Somewhere else
Is it a plan (whether realistic or not) to stay in office by
Stalling certification of EC votes
Declaring Martial Law
A coup (attempted or not)
You know, who knows what's going to happen or what he's planning or thinking? I'm just saying, if you made a line and put 0 on one side and 100 on the other, and put your finger on it on how likely it is for Trump to stage a coup, after hearing he's restructuring the pentagon, FBI, and CIA, you'd have to move your finger more towards the 100 than the 0.
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Old 11th November 2020, 07:17 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
I didn't think the Secretary of Defense was in the chain of command.

ETA: After reading a little bit, now I'm not sure.
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Yeah he’s #2 to the president.
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Thanks. Maybe I was thinking of the VP. I also read the SecDef is the "assistant" to the president.
This is why, I think, it is potentially worrying....

Quote:
Why did Trump fall out with his defence secretary?
Mr Esper clashed with the president over the White House's attitude to the military during protests over racial injustice earlier this year.

As protests rocked the US following the death of black man George Floyd at the hands of police in Minneapolis, Minnesota, in May, Mr Trump threatened to use troops to suppress unrest.

In June, Mr Esper, a former army officer, said the use of active-duty forces was unnecessary, in remarks that were known to have displeased the White House.

Following the clash, it was widely-speculated that the president would fire the defence secretary, although on Monday Mr Trump gave no reason for his dismissal.
Link

Unnecessary? Or even illegal if the state governors don't want the US Army in its streets, right?

Would his replacement be more willing to allow Trump to do what wants in terms of deploying troops?

Oh well, maybe I am overthinking this, but it does seem the type of thing that someone might do if they wanted a compliant military in a coup, right?
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Old 11th November 2020, 07:21 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yep, what next? Exhortations to buy rilfes and ammo and take up arms, presumably.
ALways as a last resort..and besides,target shooting is a fun hobby.
I just don't see Trump being able to pull off a coup of any kind in this situation.
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Old 11th November 2020, 07:25 PM   #79
dirtywick
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Sure, a key first step would be controlling the military. Of course, there are many other steps he must take and many people have to cooperate with him to do so, none of which is very clear right now. He certainly has some full support, and some carefully worded support from a lot of people. At the same time, does anyone not see a world where Trump starts to demand an arrest warrant for Joe Biden and some of the GOP goes along with it?
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Old 11th November 2020, 07:29 PM   #80
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
ALways as a last resort..and besides,target shooting is a fun hobby.
Of course it is. Especially when the targets wear MAGA hats. LOL! Just kidding.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I just don't see Trump being able to pull off a coup of any kind in this situation.
I don't either, but his behaviour is looking pretty consistent with an attempt. I mean if you assumed he wasn't thinking of a coup, what would he do? And if he was thinking of a coup, what would he do? Which one does his current behaviour most resemble?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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