ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old Today, 07:46 AM   #1721
MostlyDead
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,211
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
No they don't but, they can easily negate the self-defense "Defense".

For example, if some guy talks to a Mexican or a Biker about his Gonads on his Mother's Chin, then whatever happens next may not be determined "self defense". Self-Defense, would be conflict de-escalation...and no provocation! Many people lose sight of this and end up on the wrong side of the law too often.

Lots of guys in Prison for this.
In my state, either party probably could still claim self-defense. If the biker claimed that the nads-on-chin remark put him in fear of eminent bodily harm (that the guy was clearly about to start swinging), he could legally launch preemptive defense. The first guy could say that 'talk is cheap/just kidding around' and claim self-defense over any assault by the biker. Self-defense laws are dicey as hell, juries can find almost any outcome.
MostlyDead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 07:54 AM   #1722
MostlyDead
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,211
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Using violence to suppress speech? That's not what MD is talking about.
That's right. MD is talking about responding to a provocation.
MostlyDead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 09:39 AM   #1723
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 6,600
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Yes.

People respect strength.
Good luck with that. I guess it's time to pick a 3rd party and try to find some viable candidate. Both our 2 main ones are going down in flames.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 09:44 AM   #1724
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 6,600
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
No they don't but, they can easily negate the self-defense "Defense".

For example, if some guy talks to a Mexican or a Biker about his Gonads on his Mother's Chin, then whatever happens next may not be determined "self defense". Self-Defense, would be conflict de-escalation...and no provocation! Many people lose sight of this and end up on the wrong side of the law too often.

Lots of guys in Prison for this.
You've misunderstood the scenario. Or I failed to explain it well. Either one is sufficient.

Situation:

Bob: Says words that are offensive and inflammatory
Steve: Punches Bob
Cop: Arrests Steve for assault
Steve: Claims it was self-defense because of "fighting words"

Me: No... it doesn't work that way.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 09:46 AM   #1725
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 6,600
Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I think the hilited is highly subjective, in particular with loosely defined terms like provocation (ie: what is and isn't reasonable). Would you consider any words to be sufficient to get rowdy in response to? If the words suggested a credible threat to your personal safety, would you?
Prohibitions against assault are just and fair. I don't think that's at all subjective.

Credible and immediate threat is the only case in which I would sanction preemptive violence as self-defense.

Calling someone names isn't a threat. None of the things that you seem to accept as "fighting words" that justify or excuse violence in response qualify as threats in my eyes. I'm fairly confident that the law would agree with me on that assessment.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 09:47 AM   #1726
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 6,600
Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
That's right. MD is talking about responding to a provocation.
Your bar for what constitutes justifiable provocation is too low for limbo.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:57 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.