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Tags big cats , cougars , cryptozoology

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Old 20th July 2011, 03:15 PM   #161
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Uh oh. We have one that looks just like that. Now I'll need to get an exotic animal keeper's license.

From the article:



So the "cougar" is six to eight feet high at the shoulder, sitting down?
I told you, it's a 450 pound Bengal tiger, well camoflaged...someone is feeding it 50 pounds of fresh meat every few days.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 26th July 2011, 03:04 PM   #162
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Here's a real doozy for ya.

Cougar killed in Connecticut traced to S.D., Minnesota


Quote:
HARTFORD, Conn. - A mountain lion killed on a Connecticut highway last month had apparently walked halfway across the country from South Dakota, according to Connecticut environmental officials who said Tuesday that the 1,500-mile journey was one of the longest ever recorded for a land mammal.
The animal originated in the Black Hills region of South Dakota and was tracked by DNA from its hair and droppings as it passed through Minnesota and Wisconsin in 2009 and 2010, Connecticut Department of Energy and Environmental Protection Commissioner Daniel Esty said at a news conference.
Biologists estimate the size of the mountain lion population at about 100,000 nationwide, mostly living in the western United States and seldom traveling more than 100 miles. It was the first confirmed wild mountain lion in Connecticut in more than 100 years.
"It is a testament to the adaptability of the species that it can travel so far from its original home in South Dakota to Connecticut," Esty said.
The lean, 140-pound male was killed June 11 when it was hit by a sport utility vehicle at night on the Wilbur Cross Parkway in the New Haven suburb of Milford.
Authorities initially believed it was a captive animal that escaped, but tests showed that it was not neutered or declawed and it had no implanted microchips, which are commonly used in domestic animals.
Tests also determined it was likely the same one that had been seen earlier in Greenwich, Conn., a New York City suburb 30 miles away. The death was followed by a flurry of big cat sightings in the suburbs of Connecticut, but experts dismissed most of them as unreliable. Government experts say no native mountain lions are believed to live in Connecticut.
Genetic testing showed the cat had the same genetic structure of the mountain lion population in South Dakota's Black Hills region. The U.S. Department of Agriculture's Forest Service Wildlife Genetics Laboratory in Missoula, Mont., matched the DNA with samples collected from a cat that was tracked in Minnesota and Wisconsin from late 2009 through early 2010.
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Old 26th July 2011, 04:09 PM   #163
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He was truckin'.
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Old 26th July 2011, 04:23 PM   #164
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This was not unexpected, other than the incredible distance it traveled. I told Themanta that it was either of S. American or western origin. Parcher said it in this thread.

The idea that Eastern cougars were not wiped out in Connecticut is silly. Now knowing the distance one of these can travel, must make Eastern cougar woo-woos reevaluate their position.
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Old 26th July 2011, 04:51 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
This was not unexpected, other than the incredible distance it traveled. I told Themanta that it was either of S. American or western origin. Parcher said it in this thread.

The idea that Eastern cougars were not wiped out in Connecticut is silly. Now knowing the distance one of these can travel, must make Eastern cougar woo-woos reevaluate their position.
nope............ you obsessively clung to th escape south american crap, south dakota aint in south america and you were a) wrong and b) full of it
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Old 27th July 2011, 04:24 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by MikeyX
nope............ you obsessively clung to th escape south american crap, south dakota aint in south america and you were a) wrong and b) full of it
Post 145, this thread, clear as day.


Originally Posted by MikeyX
They're there, and they're not all pets from south american. Forest through the trees.....
Originally Posted by Drewbot
Right, some of them are male wanderers from the Florida population or the Western population.
Care to revise that first part?
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Last edited by Drewbot; 27th July 2011 at 04:56 AM.
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Old 27th July 2011, 07:14 AM   #167
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Very cool. I attended a lecture a few years ago by Jon Jenks who has headed up cougar research in the Black Hills for many years. He had many cool anecdotes of what seemed like extraordinary dispersal events, but this SD–CT one takes the cake. In that part of the world, I'm really wondering how it crossed the Hudson. . .

Example of Jenks' work:

Dispersal movements of subadult cougars from the Black Hills: the notions of range expansion and recolonization

D. J. Thompson1,† and J. A. Jenks
Department of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, South Dakota State University, Brookings, South Dakota 57007 USA

Dispersal plays a vital role in cougar (Puma concolor) population ecology, creating genetic viability and maintaining gene flow between populations. The naturally recolonized cougar population in the Black Hills is at the edge of the species' range in North America and completely surrounded by the grasslands of the Northern Great Plains. Our objective was to document dispersal movements and possible range expansion of subadult cougars captured within the Black Hills ecosystem of southwestern South Dakota and eastern Wyoming. Twenty-four (n = 14 males, n = 10 females) subadult cougars were captured in the Black Hills. Independence of cougars from females averaged 13.5 months (range = 10–16 months) from parturition; dispersal occurred 1–3 months post independence. Males dispersed (mean = 274.7 km SE 88.3) farther than females (mean = 48.0 km SE 10.9), with females exhibiting 40% philopatry. We documented several (n = 6) long-distance dispersal movements (>250 km) of male cougars and hypothesize that males making long-distance movements were in search of available mates. The long-distance cougar dispersal movements documented by our study indicate that range expansion and habitat recolonization are occurring and further suggest proactive efforts to increase public knowledge of cougar ecology in areas where cougars are recolonizing previously occupied range.

Key words: Black Hills, cougar, dispersal, long-distance dispersal, Puma concolor, range expansion, recolonization, South Dakota, Wyoming

Received 12 August 2010; revised 13 September 2010; accepted 27 September 2010; published 27 October 2010.

Corresponding Editor: M. Oli.

1 Present address: Wyoming Game and Fish Department, Trophy Game Section, Lander, Wyoming 82520 USA.

† E-mail: Daniel.Thompson@wgf.state.wy.us
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Old 27th July 2011, 07:45 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
In that part of the world, I'm really wondering how it crossed the Hudson. . .
Haven't had your coffee yet?

Swim.
Cross ice.
Cross bridge.


These far wandering males are genetic dead ends. They will probably spend their lives fruitlessly roaming in search of females. They just keep walking because they find no females and aren't constrained by any competing territorial males. If I just walk a little further I will find my babe. Nope. Forced celibacy until death. This kind of thing didn't happen hundreds or thousands of years ago because there wasn't a situation where 1/3 of the land region was devoid of females.

This male was caught on trailcam in Wisconsin and we can see that then he still had traces of kitten spots...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2cougar072711.jpg (30.7 KB, 6 views)
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Old 27th July 2011, 07:47 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Can you imagine being a wildlife official in the Eastern States? These things are presented to you with some regularity. Then there are the eyewitness reports with no presented evidence at all. Day after day, year after year, decade after decade, no cougars.
It's worth noting that bobcats and lynxes look like large house cats, whereas mountain lions look like adolescent lions. Having seen both(no lynxes here) in the wild close up, I can say the bobcat gives you the natural response of "oh! Kitty! Big kitty!", and a cougar turns your blood cold as you no longer feel like you are at the top of the food chain. It's pretty visceral - like our response to snakes and spiders.
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Old 27th July 2011, 07:57 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Haven't had your coffee yet?
Swim.
Cross ice.
Cross bridge.
Well, I mean more like which one of such options did it actually do, not that I couldn't fathom how it could get across. I'm really curious about the route too, as in other than just "east."
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Old 27th July 2011, 08:08 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by roger View Post
no lynxes here
They are not far from you. Lynx have been successfully reintroduced to Colorado (after extirpation). I just read that they are as far north as Summit county.


Originally Posted by The Shrike
I'm really curious about the route too, as in other than just "east."
Probably not a beeline east. They can move many miles mainly at night.
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Old 27th July 2011, 08:46 AM   #172
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On a broad level, I'd simply like to know if it went north or south of the Great Lakes.
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Old 27th July 2011, 08:52 AM   #173
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It seems to me that we're playing a semantics game here.

The bottom line is that we now have proof that big cats exist in the Eastern United States outside of Florida. We also have proof that they aren't simply escapees from a game farm. This after years of being told they didn't exist or that those that have been killed/sighted are simply anomolies.

Does it really matter how they got here or that they're not really Eastern Mountain Lions?

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Old 27th July 2011, 09:16 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
On a broad level, I'd simply like to know if it went north or south of the Great Lakes.
Or "through" the GL using the land bridge corridor between Lake Superior and Lake Michigan. The trailcam capture in Wisconsin was Clark County. From there it could have gone eastward three different ways: north of Lake Superior, through the gap between L. Superior and L. Michigan, or south of L. Michigan

Originally Posted by Bigfooter
It seems to me that we're playing a semantics game here...

Does it really matter how they got here or that they're not really Eastern Mountain Lions?
You are the one playing a game. There is no functional evidence of wild cougars living in the east. This dead one that walked from South Dakota cannot serve as a proxy representative for any and all others that you would like to propose.
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Old 27th July 2011, 09:27 AM   #175
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It took a freight train.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 27th July 2011, 09:29 AM   #176
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If it doesn't matter how they got there, then what do we call those pythons in Florida?
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Old 27th July 2011, 10:21 AM   #177
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Bigfoots are out there.
Eastern cougars are out there.

Why stop there?

Originally Posted by Grazhopprr on BFF
An indian friend has told me that she knows that griz have been imported to Tennessee's back country.
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Old 27th July 2011, 11:05 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Or "through" the GL using the land bridge corridor between Lake Superior and Lake Michigan. The trailcam capture in Wisconsin was Clark County. From there it could have gone eastward three different ways: north of Lake Superior, through the gap between L. Superior and L. Michigan, or south of L. Michigan



You are the one playing a game. There is no functional evidence of wild cougars living in the east. This dead one that walked from South Dakota cannot serve as a proxy representative for any and all others that you would like to propose.
I'm not proposing any others, but there is "functional evidence" that at least one wild cougar was living in the east.

You have to at least admit that.

Shouldn't we be asking why it moved so far beyond its accepted range? And if it did, are others doing that as well.

If there are big cats moving east, this is a public safety issue that needs to be at least discussed does it not? We're not talking the wide open Dakotas or the sparsely populated mountains of CA, we're talking Greenwich CT. Folks aren't going to like it when Bootsie gets mauled trying to load little Payton into the Range Rover in the parking lot at Whole Foods.

Last edited by Bigfooter; 27th July 2011 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 27th July 2011, 01:00 PM   #179
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Not an eastern cougar.
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Old 27th July 2011, 01:30 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Not an eastern cougar.
You guys seem to be missing my point. This is what I mean by folks getting caught up in semantics.

Does it really matter if it was an Eastern or Western Cougar?

There WAS a cougar and it had been on a 1,500 mile meander across half the country for several years now. Now it may have been simply an anomaly and will never happen again, but can we be certain of that? And, fine, let's say it doesn't happen again, what about Western Cougars moving, say, only 500 or 750 miles east.

I'm simply saying that further study is warranted and that the "nope, never, not gonna happen" approach is probalby not the best given the human population in these areas.
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Old 27th July 2011, 01:43 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Bigfooter View Post
The bottom line is that we now have proof that big cats exist in the Eastern United States outside of Florida.
Originally Posted by Bigfooter
I'm not proposing any others
Good, because there is no evidence of any others besides this one dead far wanderer. But specifically, we don't have any proof that they exist in the east. Understand the difference between "this one" and "they".

Quote:
I'm simply saying that further study is warranted
That would happen anytime anyone provides any actual evidence for cougars in the east. Wildlife officials take real evidence seriously. There just isn't any.
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Old 27th July 2011, 01:55 PM   #182
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Where is mom with the cubs? That would indicate cougars in residence.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 27th July 2011, 01:57 PM   #183
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Quote:
Does it really matter if it was an Eastern or Western Cougar?
Yes. The bitching was about the Eastern Cougar being declared extinct.

It is in fact, the only thing that does matter.
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Old 27th July 2011, 02:26 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Bigfooter View Post
Shouldn't we be asking why it moved so far beyond its accepted range? And if it did, are others doing that as well.

If there are big cats moving east, this is a public safety issue that needs to be at least discussed does it not?
You will find these ideas expressed in the abstract of the 2010 paper I posted in #167.
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Old 27th July 2011, 03:58 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Post 145, this thread, clear as day.





Care to revise that first part?
Nope, your emphasis if not obsession on this topic here and on the BFF has been South American pets, you are covering your backside.
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Old 27th July 2011, 04:26 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Bigfooter View Post
You guys seem to be missing my point. This is what I mean by folks getting caught up in semantics.

Does it really matter if it was an Eastern or Western Cougar?
No you are missing the point. The discussion is not whether W.cougar wander about, but whether E.cougar are extinct.[quote]There WAS a cougar and it had been on a 1,500 mile meander across half the country for several years now. Now it may have been simply an anomaly and will never happen again, but can we be certain of that? And, fine, let's say it doesn't happen again, what about Western Cougars moving, say, only 500 or 750 miles east.[quote]Just because I live in England does not make me English. If I travel to Africa, am I African?

By wandering east, a Western Cougar does not change it's (sub)species taxonomy.
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Old 28th July 2011, 05:46 AM   #187
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What is that called?, when you say something, and then someone says you didn't say that thing, and then you show them where you said it, and they still say you didn't say it?

For reference:
Originally Posted by Drewbot
I told Themanta (AKA MikeyX) that it was either of S. American or western origin.
Originally Posted by Mikeyx
nope............ you obsessively clung to th escape south american crap, south dakota aint in south america and you were a) wrong and b) full of it
Originally Posted by Post 145 This thread
Originally Posted by Drewbot
Right, some of them are male wanderers from the Florida population or the Western population.
Originally Posted by Mikeyx
Nope, your emphasis if not obsession on this topic here and on the BFF has been South American pets, you are covering your backside.
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Last edited by Drewbot; 28th July 2011 at 05:48 AM. Reason: To Clarify that Themanta = Mikeyx for conversation purposes
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Old 28th July 2011, 06:41 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
What is that called?, when you say something, and then someone says you didn't say that thing, and then you show them where you said it, and they still say you didn't say it?

For reference:
You mentioned western not nearly as much as you insisted this was an escaped pet, it wasn't, you're dodging that fact you were simply wrong. Deal with it.
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Old 28th July 2011, 08:38 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
What is that called?, when you say something, and then someone says you didn't say that thing, and then you show them where you said it, and they still say you didn't say it?
I believe the kids call it "pwned."
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Old 28th July 2011, 09:23 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
On a broad level, I'd simply like to know if it went north or south of the Great Lakes.
It is being proposed that it cut through the Great Lakes.

South Dakota > Minnesota > Wisconsin > Michigan (Upper Peninsula) > Ontario > New York > Connecticut.


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Old 28th July 2011, 09:29 AM   #191
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Vilas County (Wisconsin) deputy shoots woman; thought she was a cougar


Quote:
An off-duty Vilas County Sheriff's deputy shot a woman Monday after mistaking her for a cougar, according to the Sheriff's Department.

Ty Peterson shot a 20-year-old female family member shortly after 9 p.m. Monday at his home in the town of Arbor Vitae, according to a Sheriff's Department news release. She was taken to a hospital with a non-life-threatening injury, police said.

An initial investigation showed that the woman was playing a prank on Peterson, according to the news release. Peterson thought he was being attacked by a cougar, which was seen in the deputy's yard earlier in the day, and shot the victim as a result of the prank, police said.

The Oneida County Sheriff's Department is assisting in the investigation.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
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Old 28th July 2011, 09:33 AM   #192
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Also of note; the second scat sample, shows that there was no second cougar in the Greenwich area.

http://greenwich.patch.com/articles/...-mountain-lion
It turned out to be canine poo.
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Old 28th July 2011, 09:37 AM   #193
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More details on the Connecticut cougar.


Quote:
The necropsy, performed at DEEP's Sessions Woods Wildlife Center, Burlington, Conn., showed the young, lean, 140-pound male mountain lion was not neutered or declawed – characteristics that seemed to indicate it was not a captive animal that had escaped or been released.

The examination of the animal also showed it had no implanted micro chips, which are commonly used in domestic animals. Porcupine quills were also found in the animal's subcutaneous tissue indicating it had spent some time in the wild. Examination of the stomach contents, tissues and parasites is continuing. It was estimated to be between two and five years old but a more precise age is being determined by microscopic analysis of an extracted tooth.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
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Old 28th July 2011, 09:48 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That's absurd. You don't qualify to be a cougar until you are 35, minimum.
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Old 28th July 2011, 09:51 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Also of note; the second scat sample, shows that there was no second cougar in the Greenwich area.

http://greenwich.patch.com/articles/...-mountain-lion
It turned out to be canine poo.
No it just shows that the second sample wasnt cougar poo. Such a fact does not remove the possibility that a second cougar didnt poo anywhere else in the state, and this is where your logic typically sucks, you apply it as an absolute, when it isn't.
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Old 28th July 2011, 10:34 AM   #196
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[quote=EHocking;7414411]No you are missing the point. The discussion is not whether W.cougar wander about, but whether E.cougar are extinct.[quote]There WAS a cougar and it had been on a 1,500 mile meander across half the country for several years now. Now it may have been simply an anomaly and will never happen again, but can we be certain of that? And, fine, let's say it doesn't happen again, what about Western Cougars moving, say, only 500 or 750 miles east.
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Just because I live in England does not make me English. If I travel to Africa, am I African?

By wandering east, a Western Cougar does not change it's (sub)species taxonomy.
Fine then. I'll shut up about it. I agree that Eastern Cougars are extinct. I always have. My posts were an attempt to engage in a discussion about the implications of migrating cougars and their impact on areas with large human populations.

Perhaps I should start a new thread about that.

Last edited by Bigfooter; 28th July 2011 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 28th July 2011, 10:47 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
In that part of the world, I'm really wondering how it crossed the Hudson. . .
Well depending up on where he crossed, the Hudson is barely a trickle in some parts of the State and if he went really far North, he could have bypassed it all together.
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Old 28th July 2011, 11:09 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It is being proposed that it cut through the Great Lakes.
Cool. Looks to me like the most likely route would still be north around Huron. I'm going to - based on wild speculation - propose that it gravitated toward more populated areas in its travels to take advantage of the superabundant deer and followed this route:

Sudbury to Ottawa, traveled south and crossed St. Lawrence at the Thousand Islands, followed I-81 corridor and skirted east of the Tug Hill Plateau, traveled southeast to the Mohawk Valley, followed the I-90 corridor to Troy or something, picked up I-90 again east of the Hudson, and followed that corridor 'til it hit the Connecticut River Valley.
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Old 28th July 2011, 11:29 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Cool. Looks to me like the most likely route would still be north around Huron. I'm going to - based on wild speculation - propose that it gravitated toward more populated areas in its travels to take advantage of the superabundant deer and followed this route:

Sudbury to Ottawa, traveled south and crossed St. Lawrence at the Thousand Islands, followed I-81 corridor and skirted east of the Tug Hill Plateau, traveled southeast to the Mohawk Valley, followed the I-90 corridor to Troy or something, picked up I-90 again east of the Hudson, and followed that corridor 'til it hit the Connecticut River Valley.
The amount of assumption in this thread is amazing
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Old 28th July 2011, 12:47 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
The amount of assumption in this thread is amazing
Hmmm...what did you think Shrike meant by "wild speculation"?

I still say the cougar is a rail hobo.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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