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#321 |
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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#322 |
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I was drawing an imperfect parallel. One man one woman in a house. The woman is killed by the man, and the bathroom becomes a main feature of the criminal case.
In the case of Reeva, all evidence points to a normal nocturnal visit, and her not being pursued there. |
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#323 |
Critical Thinker
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#324 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
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#325 |
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In general with regards to self defense, there needs to be some legitimate reason why the defendant should actually be fearing for his life. Maybe the person in the bathroom is armed with a bazooka but that is not reasonable.
There are cases in the US where defendants are tried for murder when police officers suddenly barge through somebody's door. I am sympathetic to the defendant in such cases because of the suddenness and why I hate "No Knock" warrants. |
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#326 |
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It's not quite true that Steenkamp's empty bladder points to a normal nocturnal visit. It's actually quite inconclusive as it was possible she could have relieved herself up to an hour before being shot. That would indicate she had no reason to lock herself in the water closet other than to get away from Pistorius.
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#327 |
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#328 |
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#329 |
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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - - - -Bertrand Russell |
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#332 |
Forum ľ-Wit Pro Tem
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I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 - I'll miss Tim. Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
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#333 |
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#335 |
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What "idiotic suggestions"? That even in the best case the story Pistorius himself told meant he was guilty of murder? The idiotic suggestion that there was an argument prior to the shooting? The idiotic suggestion that he fired 4 rounds through the only door into a 4 x 4 foot enclosure? The idiotic suggestion that a person hiding behind a locked door was not an immediate threat to an armed man with a clear line of retreat?
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I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 - I'll miss Tim. Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
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#336 |
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#337 |
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#338 |
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How is that idiotic? You are not suggesting, are you, that it is unheard of for men to deliberately hurt or kill their wives or girlfriends? Or that it is unheard of for wealthy or notable men to do so? Or for athletes to do so? Perhaps you are suggesting that it is uncommon for men and women to have arguments, and, even, to lose their tempers?
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I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 - I'll miss Tim. Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
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#339 |
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#340 |
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I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 - I'll miss Tim. Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
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#341 |
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Great importance was placed on the fact Steenkamp's bladder was empty at the time she was shot. The argument seemed to be, her bladder would not have been empty unless she had urinated within moments of being shot. That, however, is not what Prof Gert Saayman, who performed the post mortem on Reeva Steenkamp, testified to. At the trial Saayman testified "that Steenkamp’s bladder would have been empty had she gone to the toilet between 30 minutes to an hour before her death." We're left with a possible scenario where Steenkamp had used the water closet well before the shooting, strongly suggesting she had gone back and locked herself in to get away from Pistorius.
Now the argument is, the trial judge considered the prosecution's contention it was premeditated, deliberate murder to be idiotic. But the trial judge never said anything remotely like that.
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#342 |
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#343 |
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#344 |
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I appreciate your attention to detail.
I have a question as a corollary. Why did Masipa, as a fierce defender of women's rights to be unmolested, deliver a sentence designed to allow very early release, if she thought there was more than a remote chance of intent to kill Reeva? If she had little belief in his story, she was entitled to put him away for a long time, to be on the safe side. |
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#345 |
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I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 - I'll miss Tim. Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
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#346 |
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#347 |
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#348 |
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First of all, the maximum sentence Pistorius could have recieved upon being convicted of culpable homicide was fifteen years. That was the maximum sentence Judge Masipa could have imposed. To her credit, Masipa wasn't judging the case as a woman's rights advocate but as a criminal court judge. That's what you seem to misunderstand. She found there was a reasonable possibility -- under the rules of evidence (not whatever her own private feeling is) -- that Pistorius did fire believing it to be an intruder in his water closet. Why the light sentence? This is how USA Today reported it at the time:
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However there was another reason for the lenient sentence, the trial judge ruled Pistoruis had showed no intent to kill. That was where, however, the South African Supreme Court ruled she erred. In its appeal the state asked the Supreme Court to rule on the following:
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#349 |
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Well no, by the sentence she clearly agreed with the defence, not the prosecution. There is no middle ground between the two, only one could be correct. I accept you think he deliberately killed Reeva, but I don't agree, and I don't think the judge did either, notwithstanding New York Guy's analysis.
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#350 |
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#351 |
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I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 - I'll miss Tim. Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
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#352 |
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"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#353 |
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In the last few days it's been confirmed that OP has filed papers with the Constitutional Court, claiming that the SCA erred in applying an objective rationality criterion to him.
“The legal requirements for putative private defence were not a question of law referred to the SCA under section 319 of the CPA (Criminal Procedure Act). Therefore, with respect, the SCA had no statutory authority to interfere with either the trial court’s legal or factual finding of putative private defence.” eta link for reading: http://mg.co.za/article/2016-01-12-o...ed-against-him |
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#354 |
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#355 |
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"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#356 |
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#357 |
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#358 |
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Exactly.
The logic of Sampson's approach is that Reeva Steenkamp's life is worth more than that of someone , anyone, else. If you kill Steenkamp deliberately you are a murderer, but if you kill someone else deliberately you are only guilty of the equivalent of manslaughter. |
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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#359 |
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I'm not sure how the law works in South Africa but I was very surprised to read the grounds upon which Pistorius' lawyers are appealing the latest ruling (finding him guilty of murder). Specifically the lawyers are arguing that the "reasonable man" (or in this case "the rational person") standard does not and should not apply to Pistorius. From the link:
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I do agree that, essentially, Pistorius has already been judged not to have deliberately killed Reeva Steenkamp. The finding is that in firing four shots into the water closet Pistorius should have known (as would any reasonable or rational person) that the action would be quite likely to kill whoever was in the closet. I think most nations would consider that manslaughter (or the local equivalent). If a defendant takes an action of which a foreseeable result is someone getting killed, and someone does in fact die, pleading, "I didn't mean to kill them," is not a legally viable defense. Except Pistorius is claiming that in his case it should be an adequate defense due to his anxiety disorder. That's ironic because aren't his lawyers basically conceding: The court got it right for rational people but not for Oscar. |
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#360 |
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If we are arguing with issues of wrongful convictions, self defense cases should be ones to be avoided. They are just so messy and hard to tell. There should need to be something obvious which argues for innocence if we argue for them. Otherwise, just leave them alone.
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